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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 1?Yes (31) 94% If you have time (2) 6% No (0) 0% 33 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 1? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Game 2] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 2?Yes (24) 96% If you have time (1) 4% No (0) 0% 25 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 2? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Game 3] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 3?Yes (29) 88% No (3) 9% If you have time (1) 3% 33 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 3? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Game 4] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 4?Yes (16) 57% No (8) 29% If you have time (4) 14% 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 4? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Game 5] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 5?If you have time (12) 50% Yes (8) 33% No (4) 17% 24 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 5? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Game 6] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 6?Yes (31) 97% No (1) 3% If you have time (0) 0% 32 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 6? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Game 7] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 7?Yes (29) 66% No (14) 32% If you have time (1) 2% 44 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 7? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have time
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On May 31 2026 10:42 TT1 wrote:
I think any T is behind here only in the sense of tech, and I'd add that any advantage Flash had in this position, depending on when he pulls to nat, is relatively short lived. I think he'll be fighting up hill the entire rest of the game but I would totally agree that he's not absolutely behind so much that he needed to call it. A lot of comeback potential and possibility for a decisive play. I don't believe for a second that that position is totally unplayable for Flash of all people.
After the jinjin translations I think the only real answer is the mindset. Flash had no intention of ever going there and had tunnel vision, if you will, on how to play that scenario.
But thanks for finally typing out what the FOR position here has been saying over and over, only for the AGAINST position to stubbornly ignore and just roll out, but 'the pros said' and 4pool/5pool. And the Soma video is in no way definitive, he said multiple times, according to the translation, that he had no idea.
Hopefully there's enough time between when Flash analyzes his own game(s) here, especially 7, because I hope he just doesn't wave it off as a I made the decision I made, no point in second guessing it. I really think that when he saw that replay he kicked himself for the decisions he made.
Also, I haven't gone looking but Flash supposedly had an SCV at 6 somewhere so a scout for timings after a nat pull was in the wheelhouse. How interesting, if true.
And these people are somewhat missing the forest for the trees here, this is so interesting because no one has ever been in this situation before and we're excited to talk about what could have happened instead of what did.
Again, fascinating situation, series and season of ASL.
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United States10455 Posts
On May 31 2026 10:42 TT1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +BROOOo.,o you transfer to nat AFTER you see Z FINISH speed and the last 2 lings get in (T is blind so he cant know exactly what position hes in / what build Z did, but when you see speed thats when you know you cant hold your main), thats when you transfer to nat cus you literally cant defend with just 1 rax/no rines and lings trickling in (5 speed lings + 2 drones in main already vs no marine/1 rax production and youre trying to defend both main and nat? makes 0 sense, you cant fight for your main cus speed lings coming in >>>>>>>>> 1 marine production) also he cant block the front with scvs AND defend both his main + nat cus his eco is too messed up, so the only way to stabilize is to run scvs to nat AFTER you see speed and those last 2 lings come in (cus you confirm youre in a bad spot/cant play greedy by retaking main), then you just focus on retaking main when you have enough rines WHILE defending front from more lings trickling in, ofc if it was only 3 slow lings and 2 drones w/ slow lings tricking in you can fight for your main but his decision to retake main came AFTER seeing speed, thats the point lets look at the situation step by step, so Z is stuck in T main with 5 supply (starts with 3 lings + 2 drones > 2+ lings get in > 5 lings/3 supply of lings + 2 drones, this is when T should evacuate to nat and block front so i wont count the extra lings getting in after this), remove 5 supply from Z after the last 2 lings come in (cus this is when Flash should have locked the game down to prevent more lings from coming in, thats right after he confirmed Z had speed) Z is 15 supply (pic below is when 4th and 5th ling get in w/ speed) and T is 18 supply, remove 5 supply from Z supply and its 10 vs 18, thats the position T COULD HAVE put himself in... and imo this is a pretty basic/straightforward response (im saying it like this cus thats what i was thinking while watching it, yes yes i understand that i could be wrong, G7 finals etc. but there's a different story thats being told right now), Flash should be doing that instinctively/automatically with just muscle memory imo so T is in a position where he has 2 CC done, Z nat hatch hasnt started yet, Z has 5 supply stuck in T main (and thats after pulling drones/losing drones, plus hes making more lings but Flash doesnt know that, its a safe assumption to make based on drone pull tho) and 2 of them are drones.. in what world is T behind? you lift CC and land it at your choke right next to nat gas and start making scvs again, then when you have enough rines you retake main and continue playing and the funny thing is he has multiple opportunities to go to his nat, when he was focused on fighting in his main then this happens so now even more lings come in and hes still on 1 rax production and it becomes even worse, so those lings run in and then he decides to a move 4 rines after he finally transfers his scvs to nat vs 7 speed lings i dont understand whats there to argue about, his decisions made the situation worse for himself, his on the fly decision making was off based on what was happening on his screen, tbh when i look at these mistakes it looks like jinjin tier gameplay to me like ya you can say stories about his mindset/mentality and how he wanted to approach the series but thats baby talk, next were gonna say that he miss rallied his marine out on purpose in that 8 rax vs 4p game, anyways i just think he played bad that last game in particular, pole star game i could understand cus it was stressful and he had way less time to think/react, it was a technical/micro mistake mainly, the game on matchpoint was a decision making mistake tho, unforced error, not forced like on pole star This is what I've been saying the entire time but no one seems to want to engage with that, only talking about how FlaSh was losing when he GGed (no shit).
Even while his decision making wasn't optimal, his micro was really just not there. FlaSh has always had some suspect scv micro for being the GOAT tbh and it showed both in the Effort Game 5 and here against Soma in Game 7.
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Pros supposedly refused, so users went about and made UMS game and tested games. Between 2400 MMR users according to infos. Tested over 1st ling runby
https://www.youtube.com/live/jq7o6T15Ms4
This is organized users between S ranks (2400) of the situation, and it was concluded it was about 7:3 for Zerg favor at that point.
Lot of conclusion seems to be that lings had to be cleaned up at main rather than going to natural
Played over 500 balloons for game Pros supposedly refused, so users went about and made UMS game and tested games. Between 2400 MMR users according to infos. Tested over 1st ling runby
https://www.youtube.com/live/jq7o6T15Ms4
This is organized users between S ranks (2400) of the situation, and it was concluded it was about 7:3 for Zerg favor at that point.
Played over 500 balloons for game
Lot of conclusion seems to be that lings had to be cleaned up at main rather than going to natural. Terran felt that he initially thought Terran was in playable position before testing, but felt that Zerg being able to get Lair at that point was huge. And that Drones could be saved when 2nd round of lings went in, so gap widened further. The long rush distance means 2 Rax academy timing afterwards don't work.
Zerg user (TemuSoma) felt that it was about 7:3 ahead for Zerg in that situation. He felt if he delayed main as long as possible with army in main, and opponent got 2rax, turrets won't go up very fast in time. But 2rax aca is almost forced in that situation, so Terran can't help but to get harassed by muta after that.
Zerg streamer link: https://www.sooplive.com/station/hn00414
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On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:Pros supposedly refused, so users went about and made UMS game and tested games. Between 2400 MMR users according to infos. Tested over 1st ling runby https://www.youtube.com/live/jq7o6T15Ms4This is organized users between S ranks (2400) of the situation, and it was concluded it was about 7:3 for Zerg favor at that point. Lot of conclusion seems to be that lings had to be cleaned up at main rather than going to natural Played over 500 balloons for game Zerg user (TemuSoma) felt that it was about 7:3 ahead for Zerg in that situation. He felt if he delayed main as long as possible with army in main, and opponent got 2rax, turrets won't go up very fast in time. But 2rax aca is almost forced in that situation, so Terran can't help but to get harassed by muta after that. Zerg streamer link: https://www.sooplive.com/station/hn00414 These dudes are nerds. But, but... they don't even put the bunker and the rax in the right positions... just why?
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On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:Pros supposedly refused, so users went about and made UMS game and tested games. Between 2400 MMR users according to infos. Tested over 1st ling runby https://www.youtube.com/live/jq7o6T15Ms4This is organized users between S ranks (2400) of the situation, and it was concluded it was about 7:3 for Zerg favor at that point. Lot of conclusion seems to be that lings had to be cleaned up at main rather than going to natural Played over 500 balloons for game Zerg user (TemuSoma) felt that it was about 7:3 ahead for Zerg in that situation. He felt if he delayed main as long as possible with army in main, and opponent got 2rax, turrets won't go up very fast in time. But 2rax aca is almost forced in that situation, so Terran can't help but to get harassed by muta after that. Zerg streamer link: https://www.sooplive.com/station/hn00414 These dudes are nerds. But, but... they don't even put the bunker and the rax in the right positions... just why?
Well the battle on dcinside seems to be over how shit they played and how Zerg player is better than Terran
Terran also commented on that inaccuracy too, but he concluded it's just Zerg's ahead at that point, and Terran being in good position never happened once.
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On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early.
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On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early.
They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game.
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On June 01 2026 05:37 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early. They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game.
The first game on the first link, he took. After that I stopped watching, too much knowledge about how to play here will corrupt the entire experiment, not strengthen it. It's good for what it is, but limited... 70:30 seems fair here.
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On June 01 2026 05:46 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 05:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early. They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game. The first game on the first link, he took. After that I stopped watching, too much knowledge about how to play here will corrupt the entire experiment, not strengthen it. It's good for what it is, but limited...
lol, k.
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On June 01 2026 05:48 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 05:46 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early. They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game. The first game on the first link, he took. After that I stopped watching, too much knowledge about how to play here will corrupt the entire experiment, not strengthen it. It's good for what it is, but limited... lol, k.
So you're of the opinion that Terran, even Flash, absolutely cannot play from this position? It's utterly pointless? Despite seeing a game where a ~2400mmr Terran wins...
I don't understand your personal attachment to this case jinjin. You're not playing, it's not your tournament, why the emotional involvement? You can't even engage with the argument being made, let alone my argument, and at that point you have to ask, why are you arguing again?
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On June 01 2026 06:00 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 05:48 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:46 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early. They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game. The first game on the first link, he took. After that I stopped watching, too much knowledge about how to play here will corrupt the entire experiment, not strengthen it. It's good for what it is, but limited... lol, k. So you're of the opinion that Terran, even Flash, absolutely cannot play from this position? It's utterly pointless? Despite seeing a game where a ~2400mmr Terran wins... I don't understand your personal attachment to this case jinjin. You're not playing, it's not your tournament, why the emotional involvement? You can't even engage with the argument being made, let alone my argument, and at that point you have to ask, why are you arguing again?
That game was abandoned because the hatchery on main was made 1 tile too far so they replayed on melee instead of UMS There's other inaccuracies to the map, but that's what they concluded and TemuSoma concluded after a lot of testing after those games
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I lost interest as soon as I saw they don't put the bunker and the rax in the same positions. That Terran player has a much bigger gap at his entrance than that of Flash. Kind of bizarre that they spent 2 hours and balloons playing that over and over again but couldn't bother to simulate it exactly.
But even with that, I'd take 70:30 for an answer. I mean, speed lings get into your main. Can't ask for much more of a chane.
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On June 01 2026 06:04 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 06:00 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:48 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:46 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early. They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game. The first game on the first link, he took. After that I stopped watching, too much knowledge about how to play here will corrupt the entire experiment, not strengthen it. It's good for what it is, but limited... lol, k. So you're of the opinion that Terran, even Flash, absolutely cannot play from this position? It's utterly pointless? Despite seeing a game where a ~2400mmr Terran wins... I don't understand your personal attachment to this case jinjin. You're not playing, it's not your tournament, why the emotional involvement? You can't even engage with the argument being made, let alone my argument, and at that point you have to ask, why are you arguing again? That game was abandoned because the hatchery on main was made 1 tile too far so they replayed on melee instead of UMS Yet no game was abandoned when the bunker is 1 tile to left and the rax is 1 tie up....
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On June 01 2026 06:06 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2026 06:04 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 06:00 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:48 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:46 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On June 01 2026 05:34 Xenixx wrote:On June 01 2026 05:19 jinjin5000 wrote: On June 01 2026 05:16 TMNT wrote: On June 01 2026 04:46 jinjin5000 wrote:
The Terran player isn't good here and their strategy to play from this position is bizarre, and, thats the worst part. But this appears to be exactly what I said. If a low ranked ladder player can eek out some wins here, Flash gave up too early. They are both 2400 and terran didn't win a single game. The first game on the first link, he took. After that I stopped watching, too much knowledge about how to play here will corrupt the entire experiment, not strengthen it. It's good for what it is, but limited... lol, k. So you're of the opinion that Terran, even Flash, absolutely cannot play from this position? It's utterly pointless? Despite seeing a game where a ~2400mmr Terran wins... I don't understand your personal attachment to this case jinjin. You're not playing, it's not your tournament, why the emotional involvement? You can't even engage with the argument being made, let alone my argument, and at that point you have to ask, why are you arguing again? That game was abandoned because the hatchery on main was made 1 tile too far so they replayed on melee instead of UMS Yet no game was abandoned when the bunker is 1 tile to left and the rax is 1 tie up....
I mean income being impacted is pretty damn huge. Much more huge than anything and only thing that could be immediately fixed without remaking map And temusoma said after testing with others on other games, he came to those conclusion afterwards.
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what hes saying is true, if u wanna test u have to test in a non biased way and just compare the ecos, u cant play the game out because the gameplay isnt gonna be anywhere close to soma/flash
also the Z player knows what theyre testing so subconsciously or consciously hes gonna cut corners/play comfortably, cus he knows what T is gonna do exactly (so Soma for example made extra lings vs Flash, but the replicating Z might not make those lings etc., theres a lot of small stuff like that)
also the entire point isnt to say what % lead Z has exactly or if T is in a good spot if he reacts properly, the point is to make the decisions that allow u to continue playing the game (its part of the process that makes Flash Flash, the best players the best players etc.), making decisions that put u in a bigger disadvantage is objectively bad regardless of what ppl are saying about Flash's "approach" to the series, that to me is just bullshit
u play the game thats in front of u, ur not thinking about ur "approach" in a crisis situation, ur playing to stay alive and defend with max efficiency, ur just focused on whats in front of u
now ofc Flash is Flash so im sure he had his reasons on why he played the way he did, for me without knowing what went through his mind it just looks like a mistake/bad play, thats alll i can say, i cant go into his mind and assume what he was thinking, there could be details that only Flash knows that made him play that way etc., thats all true
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On June 01 2026 06:11 TT1 wrote: what hes saying is true, if u wanna test u have to test in a non biased way and just compare the ecos, u cant play the game out because the gameplay isnt gonna be anywhere close to soma/flash
also the Z player knows what theyre testing so subconsciously or consciously hes gonna cut corners/play comfortably, cus he knows what T is gonna do exactly (so Soma for example made extra lings vs Flash, but the replicating Z might not make those lings etc., theres a lot of small stuff like that)
I mean, then nothing's gonna resolve this then. People were arguing over pulling workers to natural at 1st ling runby ASAP and that's what they did. It's not ideal but it at least resolves question on if FlaSh was very ahead if he pulled to natural or that if he gg'd too early.
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Funny to see some English comments popping up under the video of the Korean Terran.
Also judging by the Korean comments under that video too, seems like the debate among Koreans is just as heated =))
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On June 01 2026 06:33 TMNT wrote: Funny to see some English comments popping up under the video of the Korean Terran.
Also judging by the Korean comments under that video too, seems like the debate among Koreans is just as heated =))
Well, on YouTube/DCinside side, it's a lot over FlaSh's crypto incident and hate over those. Its a lot of non-match factors playing very heavy factors. Like most of comments are straight up over crypto/coin scandal, hence comment section when FlaSh is involved in other progamer's YouTube channel is closed. Crypto scandal/coingate comments just dominate comment section no matter what Only place you are gonna get FlaSh seen at least neutral/lesser bad light is in places like ygosu/fmkorea (sc section only-outside is mostly crypto comments). There they side more with Pro opinions.
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Ok so I took time to watch a couple of those "simulations", but what they and especially the Terran player did make little sense to me.
Not only does he put the Bunker and the Rax both 1 tile off, making the gaps at the entrance much wider, he barely puts anything there to block the gaps lol. I'm pretty sure if he wants, the Zerg could just mass lings, jump on the bunker and kill Terran immediately. But Zerg instead keeps running more lings via the right side gap into Terran's main, making it harder for T to clean up main.
This seems like not a good simulation to me, or the T player is just not up to the task here.
Anyway this is getting too silly now, now we're discussing 2400 players making poor replicates of the game... so I'll stop here.
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maybe we can contact them and ask them to do exactly what TMNT would want them to do?
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