EPTI guess the only realistic way to make the hatchery play work is from making it inside the main and going mass lings from inside and outside.
[ASL21] Grand Finals - Page 43
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7009 Posts
I guess the only realistic way to make the hatchery play work is from making it inside the main and going mass lings from inside and outside. | ||
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TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 28 2026 00:40 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Bet your house on it? Seriously Come On. Saying that it's 100% throw without hesitation your level of confidence and starcraft knowledge is on another level, you should mentor Flash. If he build offensive hatch instead of in nat, how many marines it takes to kill building hatchery? Killing offensiive gas takes forever. And once sunken is up how do marines without range, stim and medics do against sunkens? I was just presenting my opinion. Sorry I don't accompany every single post with "but I could be wrong". Do you? What is the problem with you? I never wrote "100%", and I never wrote Flash is "guanranteed" to win ASL. How can I express hesitation in a forum post lmao. Why are you so offended with such innocuous posts? To answer your question: Terran doesn't need to kill a building Hatchery, he just needs to kill what is protecting it. In fact it would be better to let the Hatch finish lmao. 300 minerals down the drain for Zerg instead of 75. I wouldn't be able to mentor Flash, but with that kind of question, I would be able to mentor you. | ||
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8882
2734 Posts
Based on my experience playing Blood Bath, Flash misplayed - he should have turtled in natural, build up enough army to clear top - and I think he could easily retake the main. I am not super convinced that Soma could really drone up that much and get a second hatchery at natural. A big risk would be old school scv + marine counter attack. However Im not Flash, but a bad player :D | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
I don’t think any pro can confidently call this game from this position despite what they are saying. Happy to be proven wrong they can confidently say that if Flash and Soma were to play the game state from this point, Soma wins 10/10 times? Anyway this is just a fun discussion at the end of the day so hope so people chill out abit. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
On May 28 2026 10:16 Dante08 wrote: The summary of this discussion is Flash would have had a better chance of winning the game if he sent his workers to natural immediately. It’s obvious this was the better choice because he lost by continuing to fight in the main. Haven’t seen anyone mention this but it would be extremely hard to micro on two fronts which is exactly what allowed the 6 extra lings to run by. I don’t think any pro can confidently call this game from this position despite what they are saying. Happy to be proven wrong they can confidently say that if Flash and Soma were to play the game state from this point, Soma wins 10/10 times? Anyway this is just a fun discussion at the end of the day so hope so people chill out abit. I mean, that's why I shoved in as much pro reaction as I could with time restraints in the video. To show as much expert viewpoint as I could even if they are different. And I was missing fair bit of others as well. I went for 2nd, 3rd, 4th...10th opinions from highest level pros because I knew discussion like this would pop up. IDK, when most of the pros called it over live, Action analyzed after game looking back that only way to keep lead was defend at main, and Soma felt that he already won after 2 extra lings ran in before 2nd big runby, all while saying transferring to natural was difficult choice because that only happens vs 4pool as even doing it vs 5pool puts you behind, it's really hard to say that FlaSh GG'd out too early, on top of it being hard choice to make at finals, flash's decision makes perfect sense. Just that it shouldn't even have gotten to that point in first place FlaSh's choice to defend at main was to keep a lead, especially when Pros analyzing post-game like FBH and Action said only way to keep lead was defending at main, and FlaSh's entire theme around this series was keeping a lead and staying in it while keeping game short as possible. FlaSh had prepared longer macro games like valk mech switch builds for this series, but he didn't feel that it was right that day and his wrist wasn't moving as well. It's his decision to go hard on B.O. wins instead of showing off builds he originally prepped for due to condition issues. | ||
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Xenixx
United States530 Posts
On May 28 2026 10:22 jinjin5000 wrote: I mean, that's why I shoved in as much pro reaction as I could with time restraints in the video. To show as much expert viewpoint as I could even if they are different. And I was missing fair bit of others as well. I went for 2nd, 3rd, 4th...10th opinions from highest level pros because I knew discussion like this would pop up. IDK, when most of the pros called it over live, Action analyzed after game looking back that only way to keep lead was defend at main, and Soma felt that he already won after 2 extra lings ran in before 2nd big runby, all while saying transferring to natural was difficult choice because that only happens vs 4pool as even doing it vs 5pool puts you behind, it's really hard to say that FlaSh GG'd out too early, on top of it being hard choice to make at finals, flash's decision makes perfect sense. Just that it shouldn't even have gotten to that point in first place FlaSh's choice to defend at main was to keep a lead, especially when Pros analyzing post-game like FBH and Action said only way to keep lead was defending at main, and FlaSh's entire theme around this series was keeping a lead and staying in it while keeping game short as possible. FlaSh had prepared longer macro games like valk mech switch builds for this series, but he didn't feel that it was right that day and his wrist wasn't moving as well. It's his decision to go hard on B.O. wins instead of showing off builds he originally prepped for due to condition issues. To which I would add my point that no pro has ever been in this situation so without detailed analysis, they don't know any better than the sc obsessed people here who have been playing and watching for 20 years. This is uncharted territory. Common wisdom on 4pool and 5pools just doesn't cover this scenario that we saw. It's game 7, of an ASL that may be your last forever, and so you can't say there's absolute merit to taking the 0% win chance vs whatever could've happened in a game where he retreated to natural immediately, tried to retake the main and play from there. I don't think a game like that is totally unplayable, and even if it was, you'd find out in the next 3 mins wouldn't you!? I agree with you though that Flash simply did not have the mindset to ever consider taking the game there, he never practiced it, and again no one's ever been there. I understand the decision he made, it's just the what-if of it that will always have a spot in my head. If anyone can eek out a win in that situation it would be Flash, and I've got blue balls that it didn't happen. I suspect that Flash's analysis will be one of regret when he sees the position that Soma was actually in from the replay. 5 drones at home, damaged lings in main, 1/3 of a hatch coming up. I don't see why people taking the anti-position here are getting emotionally involved though, that makes no sense to me, you weren't playing and if you don't want to discuss it at all, well, don't? Won't change the fact that this will be one of the most talked about ASL finals, and season, ever! Eff0rt missed the sign ups! | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden317 Posts
On May 28 2026 10:22 jinjin5000 wrote: transferring to natural was difficult choice because that only happens vs 4pool as even doing it vs 5pool puts you behind, When doing it vs. a 5 pool you have way less SCVs than what Flash had here don't you? I get that instinctually for a pro you only ever abandon the main vs. a 4 pool. And I get that it would've been a difficult choice to make and that Flash has the mindset of trying to keep the lead instead of trying to play catchup. And I am not saying that Flash made a bad choice to do what he did. I am saying that some people have been way to dismissive of that alternative based on live commentary from pros. Flash decided to try and defend the main, he failed. He could've done a lot of things better micro wise with that strategy, maybe it would've been the best option if he had just had better micro and kept things plugged up better. With how many SCVs Flash had and how few Drones Soma had it doesn't make sense to dismiss the natural defense strategy. | ||
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Gippy
40 Posts
That being said, I felt once the speedlings were in Flash's main it was over. The only way to recover from that position is to go bio, which he refused to do all ASL. Going mech here wouldn't work because after he builds a few vultures to clear the speedlings, mutas would come in and destroy him. No matter how many goliaths Flash can macro out, bio is still more dps efficient and handles mutas better, but taxes more apm. Goliaths only worked in the previous games due to Flash having the eco advantage. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10528 Posts
On May 28 2026 22:13 Barneyk wrote: When doing it vs. a 5 pool you have way less SCVs than what Flash had here don't you? I get that instinctually for a pro you only ever abandon the main vs. a 4 pool. And I get that it would've been a difficult choice to make and that Flash has the mindset of trying to keep the lead instead of trying to play catchup. And I am not saying that Flash made a bad choice to do what he did. I am saying that some people have been way to dismissive of that alternative based on live commentary from pros. Flash decided to try and defend the main, he failed. He could've done a lot of things better micro wise with that strategy, maybe it would've been the best option if he had just had better micro and kept things plugged up better. With how many SCVs Flash had and how few Drones Soma had it doesn't make sense to dismiss the natural defense strategy. A lot of talk about the state of the game in 4p vs 5p. But in those situations you also don't have a CC already in the natural waiting to be mined at, you have to float the CC over which gives Zerg a ton of time to catch up in eco. Here, FlaSh does have a CC already there, so he can immediately mine. So we're missing context here. | ||
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TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 29 2026 00:59 FlaShFTW wrote: A lot of talk about the state of the game in 4p vs 5p. But in those situations you also don't have a CC already in the natural waiting to be mined at, you have to float the CC over which gives Zerg a ton of time to catch up in eco. Here, FlaSh does have a CC already there, so he can immediately mine. So we're missing context here. Holy shit. I completely forgot about this lol. When they say that "you only move to the nat if it is 4 pool, even with 5 pool Terran is behind", me and I guess many others just automatically assume that it's the same situation. You're right, the transfer to the nat in 4-5 pool is totally different. With this piece of context that argument has no relevance whatsoever now and any pro who may use it is just also forgetting about the nat CC. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7009 Posts
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway662 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
Idk why you guys are focusing on that when it was soma clearly trying to give context on how hard it was to make that decision on that moment even if it was on hindsight, best decision to make there as an observer who knows entire game state With other pros saying only way to keep a lead instead of going behind after ling got in was to clean up lings at main when it was at low ling count, it made sense why flash took best decision in his own database in his mind that gave him best chance to take the lead, since he said on dinner stream his wrist wasnt in best state and had to abandone his plan to do mech switch games he prepped for You guys are barking at wrong tree and digging in at one point when intent clearly wasnt that and trying to say hes wrong or not. Idk if you are being obtuse on purpose | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7009 Posts
On May 29 2026 04:07 jinjin5000 wrote: You guys are focusing on wrong part of 4pool 5pool comment for some reason when reason why soma gave that example was because that sort of decision is hard to make on decision flow chart when you encounter new build/situation on fly because its only ever an option vs 4pool and nothing else Idk why you guys are focusing on that when it was soma clearly trying to give context on how hard it was to make that decision on that moment even if it was on hindsight, best decision to make there as an observer who knows entire game state With other pros saying only way to keep a lead instead of going behind after ling got in was to clean up lings at main when it was at low ling count, it made sense why flash took best decision in his own database in his mind that gave him best chance to take the lead, since he said on dinner stream his wrist wasnt in best state and had to abandone his plan to do mech switch games he prepped for You guys are barking at wrong tree and digging in at one point when intent clearly wasnt that and trying to say hes wrong or not. Idk if you are being obtuse on purpose For some reason they think that FlaSh instantly sending the scvs to the natural means FlaSh is ahead in the game. They also think FlaSh will be able to micro like a god from 2 barracks without +1 attack vs Soma. Something that he didnt show the whole game btw :D , If anything the one thing can be sure about is that FlaSh micro was off the whole series. Hell im curious if Rush/Light/JyJ with their level of micro/multitasking can actually bring that back. But im 100% sure FlaSh for sure cant do that. | ||
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TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 29 2026 03:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im confused about progamers saying bringing scvs vs 4p 5p. Usually if you focus lings on that barrack that is building it will never finish. So i mean whats the point on sending scvs to the minerals at your natural ? Zerg will never run by in that situation ? It refers to situations like Soma vs sSak on this same map in Ro16. The SCVs are pulled first to fight, then after a bunker can somehow be set up and lings run into main, the SCVs stay there and CC is lifted (although in that specific Soma vs sSak game, sSak was probably dead anyway, evacuation or not). | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10528 Posts
On May 29 2026 04:07 jinjin5000 wrote: You guys are focusing on wrong part of 4pool 5pool comment for some reason when reason why soma gave that example was because that sort of decision is hard to make on decision flow chart when you encounter new build/situation on fly because its only ever an option vs 4pool and nothing else Idk why you guys are focusing on that when it was soma clearly trying to give context on how hard it was to make that decision on that moment even if it was on hindsight, best decision to make there as an observer who knows entire game state With other pros saying only way to keep a lead instead of going behind after ling got in was to clean up lings at main when it was at low ling count, it made sense why flash took best decision in his own database in his mind that gave him best chance to take the lead, since he said on dinner stream his wrist wasnt in best state and had to abandone his plan to do mech switch games he prepped for You guys are barking at wrong tree and digging in at one point when intent clearly wasnt that and trying to say hes wrong or not. Idk if you are being obtuse on purpose Responding to someone else who brought it up isn't being obtuse lmao. And your vague comment didn't specify what part of Soma's comment should have been addressed. But we're all supposed to read your mind jinjin. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
On May 29 2026 04:35 FlaShFTW wrote: Responding to someone else who brought it up isn't being obtuse lmao. And your vague comment didn't specify what part of Soma's comment should have been addressed. But we're all supposed to read your mind jinjin. I gave you the video where he laid it out there when he was giving context. Its also my fault where I did cut out bits in video where he repeats "sc is decision game above all else and its hard to make that under pressure" but he still did lay out before he gave 4pool 5pool comment that even if it was right choice that sort of data response doesnt exist+this build shouldn't even work in first place | ||
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TMNT
3247 Posts
The whole point of me being in this debate is just that I don't think the game is in any way over after the first ling runby. If Flash evacuates to the nat, he may be behind (that is not even proven). But people from the opposite side of that argument act like it's still 100% over if he evacuates. Also I don't see the point of the constant appeal to authority (pros say this pros say that therefore it's true) , because (a) it's appeal to authority, and (b) it's not even true. Pros are neither unanimous on this matter nor performing an in-depth analysis/simulation of the situation. We even have Soma himself admits that he isn't even sure who's ahead if Flash transfer, and Effort screaming for that transfer (and I don't even want to cite Artosis haha) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7009 Posts
But as a Terran player. With a working terran Brain. Playing in the dark no info at all. Do you really will take that decision when do you see 3 zerglings and 2 drones in your main ? IDk i have the feeling that as a terran u proly think that you can deal with that no ? lol I know Artosis as a terran instantly called it but he is watching both pov. He knows the build and everything. But as a Terran from being in the dark i wonder if you actually act different than FlaSh did when the amount of lings is very small. Cuz imo thats what trigger this mess for FlaSh. Do you see 3 lings and 2 drones and you are like well i think i can actually deal with this. Where is Koget / Spx when do you need them .. :D | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
On May 29 2026 04:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Also i have to say as a zerg player to me the right decision when the lings enter the main and do you notice zergling speed upgrade is done is to give up the main momentarily. But as a Terran player. With a working terran Brain. Playing in the dark no info at all. Do you really will take that decision when do you see 3 zerglings and 2 drones in your main ? IDk i have the feeling that as a terran u proly think that you can deal with that no ? lol I know Artosis as a terran instantly called it but he is watching both pov. He knows the build and everything. But as a Terran from being in the dark i wonder if you actually act different than FlaSh did when the amount of lings is very small. Cuz imo thats what trigger this mess for FlaSh. Do you see 3 lings and 2 drones and you are like well i think i can actually deal with this. Where is Koget / Spx when do you need them .. :D Yea that point was brought up as well. Its hard to make decision to just ditch main instantly vs just 3 damaged lings and 2 drones. But it snowballed from there. That was when pros were all split between ditching main/protect main/its lost. When 2 extra lings got in, Soma was confident enough to say game was over. And after that point when extra lings got in, it was unanimously called over. There wasnt that much time between all those 3 points in game | ||
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