|
Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 1?Yes (31) 94% If you have time (2) 6% No (0) 0% 33 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 2?Yes (25) 96% If you have time (1) 4% No (0) 0% 26 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 3?Yes (30) 88% No (3) 9% If you have time (1) 3% 34 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 4?Yes (16) 55% No (8) 28% If you have time (5) 17% 29 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 5?If you have time (13) 52% Yes (8) 32% No (4) 16% 25 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 6?Yes (32) 97% No (1) 3% If you have time (0) 0% 33 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 6? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 7?Yes (31) 67% No (14) 30% If you have time (1) 2% 46 total votes Your vote: Recommend Flash vs Soma Game 7? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
|
On May 27 2026 04:10 TMNT wrote:I guess someone (Zerg player) can play it out in single mode from Soma's perspective to see how long he can follow up with enough Muta to end Flash. Just take his condition at 4:30 , before the second ling runby: 13 supplies, 6 drones but only 5 mining because 1 is in Flash's base, meaning 14 lings, second Hatch starts at 4:15. Just drone up like a mad man because Terran is jailed in their nat and see how that works out. Playing it out from Flash's perspective is harder to simulate though, because it depends on how clean you reclaim the main while watching out for another all-in.
There's talks on DCinside about funding potential spon games of that scenario and there has been UMS made on it, but a lot of discussion has been stuck on where it should start: from when 1st lings got in, when marine died, or when 2nd ling flood happened.
|
I really think it's ok to disagree about this. It's a controversial ending, and, regardless of what any consensus of what pros are trying to say, they've never been in this situation before or their consensus is very akin to what Flash did, refuse to play from a disadvantaged position.
I have never seen a game where damaged lings run by into the main, the decision is made prior to the game that you will not play from that kind of position, and you evacuate the main to hold the natural. Have any of you? I don't think any Terran pro even bothers to play a game out like that and that's what makes this argument so fun to me. I will forever think about the what if here.
The way I see it, if you make the decision to abandon the main, you defend any further ling run by and have to focus on retaking the main ASAP. Then from there you have to take a wild guess on what the follow-up will be and counter it. Even if all of that works, as Terran, you're still not in a totally winning position. It's an uphill battle all the way to the finish line and I totally understand why pros don't bother to play from this spot, and, more importantly why Flash doesn't want to bother. I just think as game 7 and maybe the last ASL you're going to play in, you have to try for that hailmary play, don't you!? At least the situation of whether this is totally untenable will become very clear in a <3 mins or so.
Obviously the early GG is all-together about whether or not Flash knew the position he was in or not. I just don't think you could know exactly where you are at the ~3:40 mark. No one is able to keep all that information while playing.
We shouldn't get emotionally involved in it though, there's really no right answer on the table, just the interesting aspect of discussing should of/would of/could of. This one's going to be talked about for some time, and, what a fitting end to the one of the most talked about ASL seasons ever. But I eagerly look forward to Flash's analysis on his final game, I wonder if he will wish he would've abandoned the main immediately, had a different mindset, and tried to eek out a victory from a spot no one has ever been in or wanted to be in. Whether he won or not, that would've been one hell of a game to watch IMO.
|
I just watched the jinjin videos (thank you so much, it really is appreciated). The beauty is that regardless what opinion you have on Game 7, you will find supporting statements in the video and therefore can keep your believe.
My only 2 cents are, that we should not forget that these videos / streams are made to entertain people. If you took the amount of "GG"s and "it's over" from every game literally, you would be wrong a lot of times.
|
Instead of focussing on what Flash did wrong, I want to point out my favorite moment from Soma's point of view. At 3:34 the Marine enters the bunker and Soma immediately sends everything to the main. There is not a split second where he tries to fight the SCVs or interrupts repairs. He immediately identifies he has to go to the main. Quite a few of his units are blocked and just die, but what got out was exactly enough to make the game messy. Superb reflexes and decision making.
I tried to upload a picture of that very moment but got error messages 10x in a row. My apologies.
|
Lol TMNT and FlashFTW u guys should rly spend ur time on something else than trying to rank up ur keyboard warrior skills - like trying to rank up at BW :D
User was warned for this post
|
*this post would have hit harder if I could recover my 20+ year old account with no posts*
I was so excited from these finals that I craved further discussion (rooted for Flash). Upon reading this thread for about 20 minutes, I no longer want anything to do it.
Some of you are lame and I hope your family finds out about your online posting habits.
PS thank you for your content jinjin, you are the real GOAT
User was banned for this post.
|
United States10528 Posts
On May 27 2026 05:21 A.Alm wrote:
Lol TMNT and FlashFTW u guys should rly spend ur time on something else than trying to rank up ur keyboard warrior skills - like trying to rank up at BW :D
Who are you?
|
Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On May 27 2026 05:32 tomacawk wrote:
*this post would have hit harder if I could recover my 20+ year old account with no posts*
I was so excited from these finals that I craved further discussion (rooted for Flash). Upon reading this thread for about 20 minutes, I no longer want anything to do it.
Some of you are lame and I hope your family finds out about your online posting habits.
PS thank you for your content jinjin, you are the real GOAT
Ah cool so contributing absolutely nothing was definitely the best response
|
On May 27 2026 03:48 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2026 03:37 Barneyk wrote:
He had a 2nd hatch up, or almost up. It was so over by then. Hatch started at 4:15. Hatch takes 75 seconds to build. FlaSh GGed at 4:50. Hatch wasn't even half way finished yet. Do you guys just not even rewatch or confirm these obvious things to yourself before you just say random things?
I don't understand why you are so rude and aggressive.
I just did a quick glance at the minimap tat the GG timing and skipped back a bit, didn't pay that close attention to the timings. 40 seconds away from finished counts as "almost up" in this case imo.
You also agree that the game was over for Flash when he GG'd don't you?
On May 27 2026 05:19 Malinor wrote:
Instead of focussing on what Flash did wrong, I want to point out my favorite moment from Soma's point of view. At 3:34 the Marine enters the bunker and Soma immediately sends everything to the main. There is not a split second where he tries to fight the SCVs or interrupts repairs. He immediately identifies he has to go to the main. Quite a few of his units are blocked and just die, but what got out was exactly enough to make the game messy. Superb reflexes and decision making.
Yes, I was thinking a lot about how the theme of this series really was decisiveness.
Flash just promptly walks out with 10 goliaths and just marches straight into what looks like a super easy win.
Flash builds 2 bunkers and gets 2 tanks with siege mode with turrets.
Soma just goes straight for the counterattack and camp at the factories instead.
And several other moments that just felt so decisive and clean. The player that tried to balance things or couldn't make the split second correct decision lost.
Really great and unique games in this series with unique build orders, strategies adaptability and decisiveness playing a bigger part than macro and micro. (even though there were a few excellent micro moments as well)
|
Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On May 27 2026 05:19 Malinor wrote:
Instead of focussing on what Flash did wrong, I want to point out my favorite moment from Soma's point of view. At 3:34 the Marine enters the bunker and Soma immediately sends everything to the main. There is not a split second where he tries to fight the SCVs or interrupts repairs. He immediately identifies he has to go to the main. Quite a few of his units are blocked and just die, but what got out was exactly enough to make the game messy. Superb reflexes and decision making.
I tried to upload a picture of that very moment but got error messages 10x in a row. My apologies.
Yeah it was impressive, for all the hand speed, macro, micro etc all the ASL contenders have, that ability to make those on-the-spot decisions really sets them apart
If you let Soma pause and resume at will to consider his next move, I don’t think he makes the moves that he did much faster in game-time than he actually did in real-time
|
United States10528 Posts
I don't understand why you are so rude and aggressive.
Because you're literally just making things up.
I just did a quick glance at the minimap tat the GG timing and skipped back a bit, didn't pay that close attention to the timings. 40 seconds away from finished counts as "almost up" in this case imo.
Do you play this game? 40 seconds is "almost up?" It's not even half way done. Do you play this game?
"Didn't pay that close attention." Brother, if you're not going to focus on the DETAILS in a very close game, why bother. The details MATTER for a discussion for a game this close. pros were even saying how 5 seconds between FlaSh's factory and Light's factory in their TvT series was already a decent difference.
You also agree that the game was over for Flash when he GG'd don't you?
Yes. But I have never disputed that. Idk why people keep talking about this point when it's widely accepted that the game was over at the time of the GG call.
|
The more i think about this last game and the way FlaSh played the series i think even if you simulate this game from the runby point what the follow up is proly will not match what FlaSh will do. Cuz FlaSh played the whole series to end with timing. The way i see the last game the only realistic way for flash to follow up that game was 2 barracks academy into fast factory. With such chaotic early game enginering bay fast +1 is not an option really. And here is when it gets tricky for FlaSh. In order to make this play work he need to go classic SK Terran. Play like Rush/JYJ/Light and heavily rely on vessel trade and map control denying 4 gaz from zerg. From what we know from this series FlaSh avoid such situation at all cost. The most close one was on octagon where he opened 14 CC and abused 5 barracks +1 vs Soma after scouting Soma whole base and checkin early on that it was 2.5 hatchery and effectively delayed his scans and produced scvs non stop.
I think there was just no realistic way for FlaSh to win the last map in his current condition. Would have required an insane effort from mechanics to make that work. But im fairly curious if JYJ/RUSH/Light can actually make that work from that zergling runby point and avoiding the scv fight in the main etc.
|
On May 27 2026 02:27 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2026 02:10 Mumei wrote:On May 26 2026 15:24 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, let's review the game state at 3:41, which is where I felt the critical moment of the game occurs.
1. FlaSh has just gotten his bunker up with a marine inside.
2. Upon seeing the bunker finish, Soma elects to runby into the main. The units that survive the runby are as follows: 3 speedlings, 2 drones.
3. FlaSh's supply is 18/36, with no SCVs producing and 1 marine in production. He has 2 marines (1 in bunker, one that was just made). Therefore, we know that he has 15 scvs alive at this moment (18-3=15). 14 are in his base, 1 is scouting and about to enter Soma's main.
4. Soma's supply is 14/17. He has 3 lings in FlaSh's main and 2 drones (4 supply). He has 3 more pairs of lings currently running across the map (FlaSh's natural ramp, center of the map, and his own natural). We also know that he has another pair of lings in production (at 3:58, we see the lings running across the map). Based on this information, we know that Soma has 6 supply of zerglings, 2 supply of drones in FlaSh's main, and the rest are drones in his base, so he only has 6 drones mining.
5. FlaSh only has 77 minerals while Soma has 300 minerals and 116 gas.
So to check our work, FlaSh has 14 scvs in his base (1 scout), 2 marines. 1 barracks with building marine, and 2 CC. His sim city is at his natural, with only a 77 mineral bank.
Soma has 6 drones mining, 2 drones and 3 lings inside of FlaSh's main with rallied zerglings. He has speed, and a reasonable bank of 300/100.
If at this moment, FlaSh lifts his main CC and runs his SCVs to the natural to mine and protect the bunker, I feel he is in advantageous state. Yes, he will not be mining for a brief moment as his main SCVs transfer to the natural, but he also has 9 SCVs already at the natural that were attempting to hold off the attack. Those 9 scvs can get to mining on 7 patches very quickly, and he can begin to also make more SCVs from his natural CC. The 5 SCVs that transfer can hold the bunker with 2 marines inside. 7 patches should be more than enough to stabilize, nonstop produce marines (no supply depots needed for a long time as he has the 2 CCs providing ample supply), re-establish the wall to prevent further ling runbys, and tech to 2 rax acad and retake the main.
Soma has two choices: he could either expand off 6 drones and take a natural and begin to drone, or he could keep the pressure and tech to lair while droning behind. But, Soma does not have larva banked up as he was constantly producing zerglings to aid the attack. So if he expands, his extremely low drone count would make it very difficult to catch up to FlaSh's already established 9 SCV economy (assuming he uses the main 5 SCVs to guard the bunker). If he techs, lair is going to be 63 seconds away, with the next piece of tech being either muta or lurker which will be another 2 minutes away after that for mutas, even longer for lurkers. More than enough time for FlaSh to have produced enough marines to retake his main and establish a reasonable 2 base, 2 rax academy setup. Also, FlaSh knows all of this (or should know all of this) because he has that 1 scout in Soma's base. He should know that Soma's economic and tech position was still in the stone age.
FlaSh instead tries to fend off the runby with SCVs and one singular marine. 2 more lings runby to now make it 5 total lings, and with speed instantly kill the marine and an SCV. But 1 pair of lings dies trying to runby after the marine dies.
At 4:00 now, the supplies are 13 for Soma (same position basically but now 5 vs 3 lings) and 17 for FlaSh. Essentially, subtract 1 supply of lings and 1 marine and SCV from FlaSh. He still had the opportunity to cut his losses protecting the main and flee to the natural here. Soma still doesn't have lair started, or his natural hatch started, which he only starts at 4:15. Once FlaSh lost that one marine, it was impossible to defend the main with reasonable efficiency against 5 speedlings and 2 drones. He would slowly have his main SCVs get picked off one by one.
The second runby seals the deal, with 5 more reinforcing. FlaSh FINALLY pulls the SCVs and sends his 4 marines up to defend the main (why didn't he fight with his SCVs?) and gets surrounded of course and loses.
I'm not blaming FlaSh by the way, the game was a very chaotic situation, and FlaSh's mentality likely was to crush the runby and win the game right there and then. He did not want to get drawn out into an awkward position that could turn into a longer game of attrition, as this was game 7 and his wrists were clearly deteriorating.
I also understand that Soma's perspective is that he was ahead after the runby. But according to Jinjin, he says that "I can continuously disrupt mining". But look at the position of FlaSh's bunker. How will he disrupt natural mining when the bunker is positioned so well. If Soma wants to commit to harassing the mineral line, the lings would come into the bunker's range. The interviewer also mentions "there wasn't enough workers mining". But FlaSh has 9 SCVs in the natural. Even if we assume that FlaSh will play on the safer side and use some SCVs to hold the wall, he still has some income while the main SCVs are transferred and he has 77 minerals to at least begin producing an SCV from the natural.
(By the way, using Soma's words and opinion about the position of the game without actually looking at the underlying facts is an appeal to authority. Look at the underlying facts, not just what Soma was saying). I think in a few places you overrate Flash's position by making reference to his SCV count rather than his mining SCVs. For example, you say at 3:41 "FlaSh has 14 scvs in his base". Sure, maybe, but 8 of them are trying to defend. They aren't mining, and even after he sends some of them to mine about 20 seconds later, Soma's lings force him to pull off mining pretty quickly. At 4:05 he dives in to kill an SCV and it gets to red before the obs checks the front, and then after an unnecessary crowd shot we're looking at Flash's main at 4:11 and 6 of 9 SCVs aren't mining because they are responding to the threat from a few seconds earlier, and even though they do go back to mining pretty quickly, if you keep watching you keep seeing lost mining from the harassment. That whole sequence also coincides with the moment when Flash starts a second Barracks, realizes he has 9 minerals with not enough income, and cancels it. I don't really care about anything that happens after the 4th and 5th ling runby and kill FlaSh's 2nd marine. The game is over at that point because FlaSh did not respond correctly (in my view). I'm talking about the moment the first runby happens and FlaSh has 9 SCVs positioned in the natural that can run over and mine immediately. Your discussion of 4:05 and 4:11 are totally irrelevant, I've already conceded that FlaSh had lost by that point, or that even a last ditch evac to the natural would still put him severely behind.
Hey, sorry I'm responding late; work interrupted things. That's fair enough; my quibble was only with the fact that you were making reference to Flash's total SCV count when for a long period of timing (including the time you're talking about) he had the majority of his workers off mining. They're obviously relevant to his potential success, but if you say it's between 5–6 mining drones vs 6–9 mining SCVs it looks a lot less dramatic an advantage than calling it 5 mining drones vs 14 SCVs.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about your larger conclusion that immediately pulling to the natural was the correct call, either. If nothing else, we know that what he actually did didn't work, so the counterfactual is interesting to think about.
|
On May 27 2026 05:19 Malinor wrote:
Instead of focussing on what Flash did wrong, I want to point out my favorite moment from Soma's point of view. At 3:34 the Marine enters the bunker and Soma immediately sends everything to the main. There is not a split second where he tries to fight the SCVs or interrupts repairs. He immediately identifies he has to go to the main. Quite a few of his units are blocked and just die, but what got out was exactly enough to make the game messy. Superb reflexes and decision making.
I tried to upload a picture of that very moment but got error messages 10x in a row. My apologies.
Nah, sending everything to the main is just standard Zerg play. Watch the jinjin video, even Best called it straight away. Don't think Zerg ever tries to kill a bunker when Terran has more SCVs than lings to protect it. Any B rank Zerg would make the same decision (maybe not that fast, but they know).
|
That was a great finals. Would have been neat for Flash to go out with another title but happy Soma won.
|
Did flash premature gg game 7?! That did NOT seem over
|
On May 27 2026 06:26 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2026 05:19 Malinor wrote:
Instead of focussing on what Flash did wrong, I want to point out my favorite moment from Soma's point of view. At 3:34 the Marine enters the bunker and Soma immediately sends everything to the main. There is not a split second where he tries to fight the SCVs or interrupts repairs. He immediately identifies he has to go to the main. Quite a few of his units are blocked and just die, but what got out was exactly enough to make the game messy. Superb reflexes and decision making.
I tried to upload a picture of that very moment but got error messages 10x in a row. My apologies.
Nah, sending everything to the main is just standard Zerg play. Watch the jinjin video, even Best called it straight away. Don't think Zerg ever tries to kill a bunker when Terran has more SCVs than lings to protect it. Any B rank Zerg would make the same decision (maybe not that fast, but they know).
His whole point was that there was no hesitation, you focus on the play itself...
|
finals was hype cus it was 3-3 and it was funny cus Flash won every b.o battle, ultimately the gameplay wasnt the best tho
i dunno what Flash is clicking in that 8 rax vs 4p game, he miss rallies his rine out/doesnt change his rax rally point but his scv scout saw the lings coming, how do you not prioritize selecting ur rine the second it comes out to bring it behind ur wall and lift ur rax to make a full wall with 2nd depot?
like ya i get that his rine spawns outside in that location but my point is whats going through his mind and whats he prioritizing action-wise over selecting his rine and rax in that situation, theres nothing else to click (cus he completely forgets about his rine)
or in the last game why do u need to defend ur main when u know z is pure allin, theres no depots or anything in ur main anyways, ur depots are at ur nat and ur bunk/1 rax is there, just run scvs to nat and lift ur cc to ur nat.. why a move 4-5 slow rines out in the open vs speedlings trying to defend ur main? when u know speedlings are coming at u anyways from the front (not enough production to defend main + nat anyways, he only has enough production to defend 1 location)
just some really weird mistakes that u dont normally see Flash making, only explanation is that the mistakes were cus of nerves but those are very weird decision making and basic mechanics mistakes that u dont expect to see from him
and ofc i woulda like to see more valk/bio mix ups instead of purely going mech off his bo/eco leads, i wont complain too much about that tho cus that was part of his prep for w/e reason
Flash is the type of player who usually does a build and has every adjustment/response ready, even for the worst case scenarios like in those ling allin games in the 8 rax vs 4p game and the last game on matchpoint.. but it looked like he was completely caught off guard, like to the point where it looked like he never prepped to defend vs those builds in practice games.. u would think its impossible that he didnt prep for those scenarios but the way he reacted made it look like he didnt
on somas end his micro and mechanics were great as usual but his b.o prep was pretty bad, dunno why he didnt open pool first in the first games (or at least the 2nd game, we can give him a pass for Jane Doe cus its a non standard map) so he wouldnt fall behind in the mindgames vs cc first, he let Flash control the series b.o-wise cus of how the first few games played out, the funny thing is he still ended up winning the game he opened ovp vs 1 rax cc on Attitude (which is the scenario it looked like he was trying to avoid in the first few games)
|
On May 27 2026 04:10 TMNT wrote:I guess someone (Zerg player) can play it out in single mode from Soma's perspective to see how long he can follow up with enough Muta to end Flash. Just take his condition at 4:30 , before the second ling runby: 13 supplies, 6 drones but only 5 mining because 1 is in Flash's base, meaning 14 lings, second Hatch starts at 4:15. Just drone up like a mad man because Terran is jailed in their nat and see how that works out. Playing it out from Flash's perspective is harder to simulate though, because it depends on how clean you reclaim the main while watching out for another all-in.
Flash pretty much gave up once the second Ling runby went in.
The last marine vs ling battle, he wasn't microing
|
something nobody has mentioned is that main minerals layout mines more efficiently than natural on that map, especially if soma mineral boosts at all (difficult at that stage in the game with everything else going on but obviously not impossible)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
