EPTAnyway congratulations to Soma for getting passed the torch.
[ASL21] Grand Finals - Page 38
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
|
Creager
Germany1948 Posts
Anyway congratulations to Soma for getting passed the torch. | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
129 Posts
On May 26 2026 17:50 TMNT wrote: Your maths are wrong though. Check the behind the scene video where 910 went to Soma's booth after the game and Soma was checking the replay. He has precisely 6 drones when Flash gg at 4:45, but one is in Flash's main. He only has 5 at home. During the 1 minute from 3:45 to 4:45 when Flash gg, Soma only produces lings. He has 8 in Flash's main before the last fight and 4 on the map. You can see in the mini map. Flash already has 2 marines at 3:45 (one in the bunker and one dies immediately trying chase the 3 lings in the main). If he evacuated at 3:45 he'd get to 6 marines at 4:45. He produces almost nothing during that minute because the SCVs in the main are busy drilling instead of mining, while he spends 150 to build a rax then cancels it (hence wasting 37). So no, when Flash would have 6 marines, Soma would still only have 12 lings and 5 drones at home, exactly like what he has at 4:45 in the game. Pros call gg AFTER the second pack of lings run into the main freely, not after the bunker is finished. Flash still would have a whole game to play if he evacuated immediately. That's exactly what Effort was calling for. Ah I see your issue: While everyone is talking about the time of GG, you are talking about minute before that. Nobody here fucking cares what happens at 3:45 but Flash would have won if he knew exactly how to react properly a minute before his winning position went to a losing position. I assumed wrongly that we are all discussing the game state at the time of GG, like anyone else. Excuse my ignorance. Let us discuss the game from the time of Flash being ahead and discuss the perfect reaction that you would have done for Flash to stay ahead from there on for a full minute... instead of discussing the game state at the time of GG. Shame on me | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
129 Posts
On May 26 2026 17:27 Dante08 wrote: Totally agree with this, to add on, Flash didn’t build depots in main so Soma wouldn’t have anything to target which is a huge factor in games like this. Pros are definitely more knowledgeable but they are also many times where they try to call games too early and get it wrong. Artosis actually called for the main to be evacuated as soon as the first runby happened as well. I don’t think any pro can look at that and determine the game was won for Soma if it happened. wtf are you terrans discussing the game state at 3:41? Before the second runby? Nobody questions that Flash was ahead before the 2nd runby. Who the fuck cares about what happened a minute before gg. Yeah let's just go back to the state where Flash was the most ahead, instead of the time when he GG'd, and argue from there. If he done everything perfectly for a minute and read Soma like he has maphax as you do, then he would have been ahead. Real genius stuff here. Also every pro is wrong because they are falsely analysing Flash game from the time of GG. They should have looked at the game a minute earlier clearly. Real genius stuff there. | ||
|
TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 26 2026 21:20 doktordingerdonger wrote: Ah I see your issue: While everyone is talking about the time of GG, you are talking about minute before that. Nobody here fucking cares what happens at 3:45 but Flash would have won if he knew exactly how to react properly a minute before his winning position went to a losing position. I assumed wrongly that we are all discussing the game state at the time of GG, like anyone else. Excuse my ignorance. Let us discuss the game from the time of Flash being ahead and discuss the perfect reaction that you would have done for Flash to stay ahead from there on for a full minute... instead of discussing the game state at the time of GG. Shame on me Seriously, have you not read this topic the last few pages? Most people are talking about the minute before that (3:45, when the bunker is up and the first lings run by) and how Flash should have lifted CC and abandoned main. Only a few have expressed doubt about the gg timing. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
On May 26 2026 20:03 quaristice wrote: so like. why would u post one of the most infamous matchfixing vids of all time in relation to flash and soma grand finals in 2026 unless u're trying to accuse them of matchfixing Scrvn often tries to act clever and shit but never works On May 26 2026 18:13 TMNT wrote: Do they though? I feel like you're trying to force the issue too much with this "20 pros" line and don't differentiate between the two important milestones: the first and second ling runby. Yes they all said the game was over when Flash gg'd and I think no one among us disagrees. But when the first run by happenned, many were calling for CC lift, notably Effort. JD's reaction after the marine gets into the bunker was that of "oh Flash holds now, he's in advantage, but wait, it's not finished yet as this is speedlings". It's not like they were like "Flash is done" after 3 lings and 2 drones get into the main is it? Now who's ahead after the CC lift is another complex issue that will only likely be solved by having them play out the same situation again. Because I'm pretty sure this game state never happened before. I dont wanna list out the pros at this point but number of pros that called to transfer to natural was mostly non terran mains and most of pros who called game to be over was terran mains. It also was split over protecting at main base vs at natural too, with notable transfer natural being best/effort while terrans all kinda called over | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
129 Posts
On May 26 2026 21:38 TMNT wrote: Seriously, have you not read this topic the last few pages? Most people are talking about the minute before that (3:45, when the bunker is up and the first lings run by) and how Flash should have lifted CC and abandoned main. Only a few have expressed doubt about the gg timing. No, you cannot blame it on me when you mean with most people, its you and Flashftw, while every other terran here just blindly agrees without reading your shit as well. Because surely they should have smelled it as well how insane it is to argue from 3:41 onwards? | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
129 Posts
| ||
|
Soft_General_5023
140 Posts
biggest mistake was cc first on 2 player map when opponent expects it | ||
|
TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 26 2026 22:00 doktordingerdonger wrote: Flash would have won if he played perfectly from the point that he could have won. Some very insightful shit. Seriously why are you acting so shocked when people are discussing this kind of stuff? Isn't this every conversation about every BW game ever lol? Player A should not have made this mistake at point B in time, never heard of that? Plus, it's not even "playing perfectly from that point". It's literally a choice between 2 decisions: one is what he did, the other is what we suggest he should have done. We're just talking about the grand strategy. Playing perfectly would mean after he retreats to the nat, he has to plug the entrance with minimal SCVs, and clear the main without losing a marine, and keep his scouting SCV alive etc.. On May 26 2026 21:50 doktordingerdonger wrote: No, you cannot blame it on me when you mean with most people, its you and Flashftw, while every other terran here just blindly agrees without reading your shit as well. Because surely they should have smelled it as well how insane it is to argue from 3:41 onwards? No it's not just the two of us. Read this thread again. Plus, it is a very big talking point on the foreign BW reddit and among the Koreans as well. You're just denying a fact if you think most people are only talking about the point he typed gg | ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2757 Posts
To the people still debating game seven, you are the ripples after the splash, the dust waiting to settle, the radiation slowly seeping, the witnesses of something great. Will someone best Soma in the next ASL? Best the slayer of Flash? Will Soma continue his reign and rival Soulkey, with Flash under his belt. Can Flash muster a comeback, is his appetite wetted or gone? Thank you all who live this moment with me, and see you at the next one. | ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2757 Posts
Sure it didn't have late game macro grinders, but instead we got seven courses of Michelin star quality. These was not to still hunger but to instill taste. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
On May 26 2026 22:17 TMNT wrote: Seriously why are you acting so shocked when people are discussing this kind of stuff? Isn't this every conversation about every BW game ever lol? Player A should not have made this mistake at point B in time, never heard of that? Plus, it's not even "playing perfectly from that point". It's literally a choice between 2 decisions: one is what he did, the other is what we suggest he should have done. We're just talking about the grand strategy. Playing perfectly would mean after he retreats to the nat, he has to plug the entrance with minimal SCVs, and clear the main without losing a marine, and keep his scouting SCV alive etc.. No it's not just the two of us. Read this thread again. Plus, it is a very big talking point on the foreign BW reddit and among the Koreans as well. You're just denying a fact if you think most people are only talking about the point he typed gg I feel like discussion kinda died down on korean community by this point with most of comments telling people to refer to pros review/commentary. other than the wild west YouTube space which is like 60% crypto flaming and 40% casual viewers | ||
|
CHEONSOYUN
606 Posts
On May 26 2026 18:38 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I think Jinjin was spot on when he says FlaSh didnt even consider option 1 of transfering Scvs to the natural cuz he didnt want to play an equal/ non favorable game the whole series. And it makes sense cuz Soma was fighting Overpool vs Supply rax opening and still won the games. Last game would for sure forced FlaSh to play in a way that he didnt even prepared for. I imagine he either prepared a Mech Build or Maybe Some Valkyrie opening. That means that from the get go those builds were already ruined. He will be force to open 2 barracks academy and a lot of micro to stay healthy and fight out the map. Cuz late late game MP is great for terran but the nature the game started FlaSh will be for sure fighting uphill untill he get into a good fight vs Mutas or some blunder with lurks. Now we can assume that what was actually required for FlaSh in that game was some insane macro and multitasking Light type/ Jyj etc. And is something that FlaSh didnt show the whole series. flash probably prepared a response to early pool builds on match point but the drone pull soma used probably surprised and shook him imo flash fanboys need to calm down about game 7. be more mad about how flash prepared for this entire series because he tried to do the same build order heavy preparation he used against snow and light and got punished for it by a good zerg. | ||
|
TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 26 2026 21:48 jinjin5000 wrote: I dont wanna list out the pros at this point but number of pros that called to transfer to natural was mostly non terran mains and most of pros who called game to be over was terran mains. It also was split over protecting at main base vs at natural too, with notable transfer natural being best/effort while terrans all kinda called over But that just means the matter is debatable at best. Soma himself made a great point that this scenario has never happened before so it's hard to tell. Didn't he say that he wasn't even sure he was ahead after the first 3 lings get in, and was only sure he'd won after the second ling run by? The pros who thought it was over even if he evacuated to the nat probably base that assumption on the fact that the rush was not a 4/5 pool. But it was also a drone rush that left Soma with 5 drones in his main after 5 minutes. It's an entire new, unique scenario. There are many times they called a game too early in these kinds of real-time reaction videos. What's for sure is that by pulling to the nat you have a chance (how much is it is another matter), and by not doing so you don't. I will always have Effort agreeing with me on this  | ||
|
Soft_General_5023
140 Posts
On May 26 2026 23:59 TMNT wrote: But that just means the matter is debatable at best. Soma himself made a great point that this scenario has never happened before so it's hard to tell. Didn't he say that he wasn't even sure he was ahead after the first 3 lings get in, and was only sure he'd won after the second ling run by? The pros who thought it was over even if he evacuated to the nat probably base that assumption on the fact that the rush was not a 4/5 pool. But it was also a drone rush that left Soma with 5 drones in his main after 5 minutes. It's an entire new, unique scenario. There are many times they called a game too early in these kinds of real-time reaction videos. What's for sure is that by pulling to the nat you have a chance (how much is it is another matter), and by not doing so you don't. I will always have Effort agreeing with me on this Well there is a healthy ego and then there is you TMNT man. I recall you saying along other bullshit that Flash is guaranteed to win this ASL, and to bet your house on it. Well did you ?  Anyway you were close and thanks for proleagues reports. | ||
|
Smorrie
Netherlands2941 Posts
I'd say the same goes for any of the wrist injury arguments. Flash has obviously practiced a shitload to reach peak form again and I really can't see him gg'ing out of physical inability. Even tho it's fair to assume that it made the decision to not play out a pointless game easier and not being worth any additional strain. Ironically, Flash continuously tried to force advantageous positions, while mixing in more conservative or standard game plays would likely have neutralized some of soma's aggressive responses. | ||
|
TMNT
3247 Posts
On May 27 2026 01:19 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Well there is a healthy ego and then there is you TMNT man. I recall you saying along other bullshit that Flash is guaranteed to win this ASL, and to bet your house on it. Well did you ? Anyway you were close and thanks for proleagues reports. Why do some people like you you have to end your post with "thank you for proleague report etc" as if to show me "oh I'm being fair, I'm being nice" If you go in with a hostile/mocking tone, better stay true to your color. What did I say in my post that screams ego? What do you mean I said Flash is "guaranteed" to win? As in the ASL organisers guarantee him or something? Other than that who didn't predict that Flash would win this ASL? Predicting Flash winning ASL is bullshit to you? Do you know what bullshit means? Or never heard of the expression "bet the house on something" Seriously fuck off | ||
|
Mumei
United States270 Posts
On May 26 2026 15:24 FlaShFTW wrote: Ok, let's review the game state at 3:41, which is where I felt the critical moment of the game occurs. 1. FlaSh has just gotten his bunker up with a marine inside. 2. Upon seeing the bunker finish, Soma elects to runby into the main. The units that survive the runby are as follows: 3 speedlings, 2 drones. 3. FlaSh's supply is 18/36, with no SCVs producing and 1 marine in production. He has 2 marines (1 in bunker, one that was just made). Therefore, we know that he has 15 scvs alive at this moment (18-3=15). 14 are in his base, 1 is scouting and about to enter Soma's main. 4. Soma's supply is 14/17. He has 3 lings in FlaSh's main and 2 drones (4 supply). He has 3 more pairs of lings currently running across the map (FlaSh's natural ramp, center of the map, and his own natural). We also know that he has another pair of lings in production (at 3:58, we see the lings running across the map). Based on this information, we know that Soma has 6 supply of zerglings, 2 supply of drones in FlaSh's main, and the rest are drones in his base, so he only has 6 drones mining. 5. FlaSh only has 77 minerals while Soma has 300 minerals and 116 gas. So to check our work, FlaSh has 14 scvs in his base (1 scout), 2 marines. 1 barracks with building marine, and 2 CC. His sim city is at his natural, with only a 77 mineral bank. Soma has 6 drones mining, 2 drones and 3 lings inside of FlaSh's main with rallied zerglings. He has speed, and a reasonable bank of 300/100. If at this moment, FlaSh lifts his main CC and runs his SCVs to the natural to mine and protect the bunker, I feel he is in advantageous state. Yes, he will not be mining for a brief moment as his main SCVs transfer to the natural, but he also has 9 SCVs already at the natural that were attempting to hold off the attack. Those 9 scvs can get to mining on 7 patches very quickly, and he can begin to also make more SCVs from his natural CC. The 5 SCVs that transfer can hold the bunker with 2 marines inside. 7 patches should be more than enough to stabilize, nonstop produce marines (no supply depots needed for a long time as he has the 2 CCs providing ample supply), re-establish the wall to prevent further ling runbys, and tech to 2 rax acad and retake the main. Soma has two choices: he could either expand off 6 drones and take a natural and begin to drone, or he could keep the pressure and tech to lair while droning behind. But, Soma does not have larva banked up as he was constantly producing zerglings to aid the attack. So if he expands, his extremely low drone count would make it very difficult to catch up to FlaSh's already established 9 SCV economy (assuming he uses the main 5 SCVs to guard the bunker). If he techs, lair is going to be 63 seconds away, with the next piece of tech being either muta or lurker which will be another 2 minutes away after that for mutas, even longer for lurkers. More than enough time for FlaSh to have produced enough marines to retake his main and establish a reasonable 2 base, 2 rax academy setup. Also, FlaSh knows all of this (or should know all of this) because he has that 1 scout in Soma's base. He should know that Soma's economic and tech position was still in the stone age. FlaSh instead tries to fend off the runby with SCVs and one singular marine. 2 more lings runby to now make it 5 total lings, and with speed instantly kill the marine and an SCV. But 1 pair of lings dies trying to runby after the marine dies. At 4:00 now, the supplies are 13 for Soma (same position basically but now 5 vs 3 lings) and 17 for FlaSh. Essentially, subtract 1 supply of lings and 1 marine and SCV from FlaSh. He still had the opportunity to cut his losses protecting the main and flee to the natural here. Soma still doesn't have lair started, or his natural hatch started, which he only starts at 4:15. Once FlaSh lost that one marine, it was impossible to defend the main with reasonable efficiency against 5 speedlings and 2 drones. He would slowly have his main SCVs get picked off one by one. The second runby seals the deal, with 5 more reinforcing. FlaSh FINALLY pulls the SCVs and sends his 4 marines up to defend the main (why didn't he fight with his SCVs?) and gets surrounded of course and loses. I'm not blaming FlaSh by the way, the game was a very chaotic situation, and FlaSh's mentality likely was to crush the runby and win the game right there and then. He did not want to get drawn out into an awkward position that could turn into a longer game of attrition, as this was game 7 and his wrists were clearly deteriorating. I also understand that Soma's perspective is that he was ahead after the runby. But according to Jinjin, he says that "I can continuously disrupt mining". But look at the position of FlaSh's bunker. How will he disrupt natural mining when the bunker is positioned so well. If Soma wants to commit to harassing the mineral line, the lings would come into the bunker's range. The interviewer also mentions "there wasn't enough workers mining". But FlaSh has 9 SCVs in the natural. Even if we assume that FlaSh will play on the safer side and use some SCVs to hold the wall, he still has some income while the main SCVs are transferred and he has 77 minerals to at least begin producing an SCV from the natural. (By the way, using Soma's words and opinion about the position of the game without actually looking at the underlying facts is an appeal to authority. Look at the underlying facts, not just what Soma was saying). I think in a few places you overrate Flash's position by making reference to his SCV count rather than his mining SCVs. For example, you say at 3:41 "FlaSh has 14 scvs in his base". Sure, maybe, but 8 of them are trying to defend. They aren't mining, and even after he sends some of them to mine about 20 seconds later, Soma's lings force him to pull off mining pretty quickly. At 4:05 he dives in to kill an SCV and it gets to red before the obs checks the front, and then after an unnecessary crowd shot we're looking at Flash's main at 4:11 and 6 of 9 SCVs aren't mining because they are responding to the threat from a few seconds earlier, and even though they do go back to mining pretty quickly, if you keep watching you keep seeing lost mining from the harassment. That whole sequence also coincides with the moment when Flash starts a second Barracks, realizes he has 9 minerals with not enough income, and cancels it. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10528 Posts
On May 26 2026 16:21 QRCode wrote: The only other poster I've seen with the right take on game 7 was A.Alm. How are you guys so lost on the game? No offense, but it seems most of you didn't play the game at a high level and don't get the current meta/tempo. Not being a snob, that's ok, but if you know you're not coming from a great position you have to trust the pros here. There's no conspiracy and Flash didn't prematurely gg. He just knew what was coming and wasn't gonna waste everyone's time and disrespect Soma. If you 4 pool and fail, you're still alive, sure...but no way you're going to win the game against a competent player. Just gg and don't waste anyone's time. Or in chess, don't be that annoying idiot who doesn't resign and forces you to play a little more to checkmate him. Flash was definitely fucked and you gotta try to understand why, not question it. @Flashftw You are making Flash's position sound better than it really was and not giving Soma's position enough credit on how healthy it was despite the early aggression, and what he would be able to do from there. Yes, for Flash to continue on, he would've needed to do a combination of make more SCVs, marines, seal off the wall, and tech. And if he continued on, we would've watched him slowly macro off 7 patches to do all that which requires hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of minerals, while everyone is just watching the calm before the storm, celebrating Soma's win. And when the Muta storm comes and wrecks him, people would just be like, why didn't Flash just gg earlier, he was fucked. Lol 7 patches is more than enough time for him to pump marines out while re-securing the wall to prevent further lings from getting in. Let's assume that Soma does get the next pair of lings in to make it 5 lings and 2 drones in FlaSh's main... FlaSh can hole up the wall to prevent further lings from getting in while producing marines up to 5-6 to clear out the remainder of the units in his main. Soma now has useless speedlings outside of FlaSh's wall while he is on crappy economy with either a natural or lair having just started. The bunker. Someone put up a picture of the bunker, and said here's the bunker protecting the mineral line...except it had some blind spots lol. You guys are misjudging the range of the bunker. Soma says he was able to disrupt mining for a reason. Because the bunker did not guard the edges of the mineral line. Soma was talking about disrupting mining in the main, not the natural. Now neither Flash nor Soma are C level players so let's give them both full credit please. In response to that, Flash will almost certainly leave some marines a little bit outside to shoot those lings. Solved right? Ok, Soma can't harass his SCVs anymore. He's saved! Nah. He's on 7 mineral patches, which is lol in itself. 7 patches with oversaturation against 6 drones, and you're taking the 6 drones as better economy? Interesting. So Flash will mine off 7 minerals, investing the vast majority of that slow income in *still* dealing with Soma's *potential* speedling threat, not being able to improve his economy or tech to something better, while Soma is free to watch Flash do whatever little he can, blow up his economy, and tech up to something that Flash cannot deal with, because the lemons he's got can only afford him to deal with threat one. Soma's fastest tech of either lurker or muta was going to be over 3 minutes away at that point in the game. You act like FlaSh literally cannot do anything from the moment the speedlings made the runby and he can't improve his own position. You're projecting so hard when you tell me that I'm the one that makes FlaSh's position look better than it is. You're acting like Soma turns on operation cwal and all his tech and units come out instantly lmao. Why do I even bother sometimes. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27207 Posts
How’s Soma able to be such an outlier in not only being competitive but Championship tier where basically nobody else outside of the Kespa regime can even manage to be a solid Ro16/Ro8 lock? Just a special talent or is he doing certain things others aren’t? | ||
| ||
