[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 6

On October 28 2008 12:37 Kallepettersen wrote:

until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did.

also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here:

On October 28 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:



The thing about defilers is wrong.

Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy.

On October 28 2008 12:45 Kallepettersen wrote:

im not saying that literally NOBODY used defilers before a korean ever used it, just saying that it only became popular and everybody and their mother started to use it after the koreans adapted it and made it the standard, as with all other strategies nowadays.

On October 28 2008 12:46 Superiorwolf wrote:

On the other hand, you could say the same thing the other way around. NOBODY used defilers and it did not become popular until Slayer started using them. The subsequent popularity in Korea then transferred back to foreigners, after Koreans finally became dominant in the game. Foreigners have created many of the things we see today... Grrr, afaik, invented much of modern Protoss play, including sair/dt and sair/reaver and other things, as well as not so used dark archons, etc.

On October 28 2008 11:59 Mora wrote:
misrah, i think i may come out of retirement just to give this strat a try.

I am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones.

1200
200
150 . 100
100 . 50
100 . 100
150 . 150
75
100 . 100
1200
-----
3275 . 500

opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics
600
150
125
100 . 100
250 . 250
1000
400
400
250 . 125
-----
3275 . 475

as you can see from the figures above (assuming they make sense), the terran has a small army to attack with, while maintaining equal teching/macro facilities, while the zerg has less. At this point in time the zerg MUST switch to ling/hydra to stand a chance (and without sunkens this could be dubious), and in the meantime the terran does not have to split his production of econ/arsenal between larva.

It's obviusly not that cut and dry - changes will (and should) be made depending on how each person scouts, but my impression is that trying to accomplish all of that in the early game leaves you slightly behind or slightly weak. however, this needs a hands-on play through to determine for certain.

about queens:
The intents behind ensnare is only to reduce movement speed. However, across several units in the game, the ROF is affected slightly. I believe Dragoons ROF is affected, as are goliaths. However, firebats and marines ROF is unaffected unless they are stimmed (in which case it negates stim). I do not have a source, though i could try to look it up as it was right here on teamliquid that we did this personal testing when evaluating the viability of the Queen about 5 years ago. lol

About ensnare: ensnare is a highly effective tool - i've used it so in every matchup. Infact, i am one of only a handful of people that i've seen use it effectively in WCG games (mora vs korn, 2004. mora vs xiaozi, 2004). The problem is that if the marines see the queen before she casts ensnare (and by cast, i mean the cash of goo actually leaving her mouth), then they actually have time to stim and move out of the way and not be hit by the ensnare. This type of reaction/response is usually not practiced specifically for vsing a queen, but rather simply automatic for good players who react to any dot on their minimap by moving their marines immidiately - thereby missing being hit.

thoughts on Ensnare vs Terran critical mass: Once the terran is massed and has 8+ tanks, ensnare becomes useless for these reasons:
1) Tanks are what determine when and where the mass moves. As in all zvt skirmishes, if the tanks are out of position the zerg will dominate (usually with a lurker/ling or lurker/hydra combo). Since these tanks are either in position and seieged (and therefore ensnare becomes moot because the tank is stationary), or they're out of position and you were going to win anyway. (there are exceptions to this rule, but the point is the opening is created by the terran, not by the zerg).

2) Assuming the terran has scouted your combination (if he sees hydra he will react to hydra/lurker/ling, which requires no different a reaction than fighing ling/hydra) which means he should only be travelling on 'safe ground'. This aspect of 'tactics' may be different now than it was when i was active, as i believe nowadays the maps are much more open, making such play very difficult (if not impossible). So when i say 'travelling safe' i mean travelling on the outside paths of Luna (instead of through the middle), between the walls and the cliffs of the middle of Lost Temple, travelling along the cliffs of Gaia, etc. (i guess now that i think about it, on a map like Python the terran really has no 'way' to travel safe.)

3) ultimately my thoughts on terran critical mass and ensnare can be summed up as this: Terran's lack of mobility is already the weakness of the critical mass. Catching a terran offguard is what is going to kill him, and this is true even without ensnare. (though to be fair, most terrans do not change their army positioning when vsing ensnare, so you could argue that these opportunities are created through good zerg-play and [common] terran-ignorance.)

Like i said before though: your general theme behind your strat is intriguing. I have some time off work next week, i will try to log on and give it a try.

edit - my lacking knowledge of the current meta game may be hruting my ability to understand early game economy. so im trying to keep that in mind.

2nd edit - i apologize if my post is not coherant, i do not have time to proof read it as i am in a hurry.

On October 28 2008 12:52 AttackZerg wrote:
Guys I think you both have relavant points and disagreeing on strategic elements of strategy on a theoretical elements is usefull to the thread and the discussion, but the disagreement is not on topic anymore, suppy go on iccup and try it out!

On October 28 2008 16:09 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe this thread is this long with so many long replies and superiorwolf is the only one who's posted a replay. I doubt this build could ever work, but I'd love to see a "safe" alternative to 3 hatch mutas, plus a viable use for queens and hydras in zvt.