EPT[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 6
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:37 Kallepettersen wrote: until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did. also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here: The thing about defilers is wrong. Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy. | ||
|
Kallepettersen
Germany24 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote: The thing about defilers is wrong. Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy. im not saying that literally NOBODY used defilers before a korean ever used it, just saying that it only became popular and everybody and their mother started to use it after the koreans adapted it and made it the standard, as with all other strategies nowadays. | ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:45 Kallepettersen wrote: im not saying that literally NOBODY used defilers before a korean ever used it, just saying that it only became popular and everybody and their mother started to use it after the koreans adapted it and made it the standard, as with all other strategies nowadays. On the other hand, you could say the same thing the other way around. NOBODY used defilers and it did not become popular until Slayer started using them. The subsequent popularity in Korea then transferred back to foreigners, after Koreans finally became dominant in the game. Foreigners have created many of the things we see today... Grrr, afaik, invented much of modern Protoss play, including sair/dt and sair/reaver and other things, as well as not so used dark archons, etc. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
| ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
| ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
| ||
|
Kallepettersen
Germany24 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:46 Superiorwolf wrote: On the other hand, you could say the same thing the other way around. NOBODY used defilers and it did not become popular until Slayer started using them. The subsequent popularity in Korea then transferred back to foreigners, after Koreans finally became dominant in the game. Foreigners have created many of the things we see today... Grrr, afaik, invented much of modern Protoss play, including sair/dt and sair/reaver and other things, as well as not so used dark archons, etc. well its kinda stupid to believe that really nobody used defilers before slayer.... Im sure somebody used them before slayer, just that this somebody wasnt quite good enough to make a name for himself... You can go further back in time and claim the first one to use Reavers with shuttles was Zileas, which is true, but his builds have nothing to do with modern starcraft, neither have Grrrs builds... Its kinda stupid to credit someone with the invention of something as fundamental as the use of a whole unit, nowadays its about small changes in timing and bo or coming up with a great strategic play, combining common units and strategies in a new fashion (like fantasy build). Im sure korean amateurs have tried billions of things with hydra/ling and even queens against terran already ages ago, and these koreans sure were easily A level. The korean community is friggin huge and everybody dreams to be a progamer + there is a load of players who are very very good, but still lightyears away from a progamer. If you really think ALL of these players are mindless drones who just play the same standard strats, you must be out of your mind. Sadly the korean community is lightyears ahead of the foreign community nowadays, so if any revolution is going to come in any mu, it sure will be from the koreans, accept that fact. | ||
Empyrean
16950 Posts
Ensnare tracks its target I'm pretty sure, if you cast it on a unit. That way, even if they move, the epicenter of the Ensnare surrounds its target. Much easier to cast than, say, storm. Also, I'm pretty sure back in 2003 Bill307 did a series of tests on how Ensnare affects the rate of fire of different units. I think all of them were affected. I remember Archons being slowed significantly. | ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
| ||
|
Aerox
Malaysia1213 Posts
| ||
|
t_co
United States702 Posts
EDIT: Just saw Superiorwolf's replays--we need reps from T's at C+ and above. | ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
http://www.savefile.com/files/1862432 These are my 1st and 2nd attempts at the build respectively. I still am making major mistakes and the macro just starts booming really fast. A good Terran with good harass could easily deal some pretty nice damage as you're out and about the map. I really like the build though and want to fix my major mistakes asap. Edit: Holy shit, I just was checking my replays and my APM was 200 last week and this week it's teetering at about 140? wtf, I must be tired or something. Aight I'm going to bed lol, night! and @ t_co yeah, I'm starting from the ground up because I don't want to play on my main account until I learn this better. Note that these are all versus D's, so they aren't going to give any concrete evidence or anything because D's are pretty bad regardless of what build you're doing. Once Misrah gets his computer fixed or w/e then we'll get better replays because he's apparently using this with some success at C level afaik. | ||
|
Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 28 2008 11:59 Mora wrote: misrah, i think i may come out of retirement just to give this strat a try. I am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones. 1200 200 150 . 100 100 . 50 100 . 100 150 . 150 75 100 . 100 1200 ----- 3275 . 500 opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics 600 150 125 100 . 100 250 . 250 1000 400 400 250 . 125 ----- 3275 . 475 as you can see from the figures above (assuming they make sense), the terran has a small army to attack with, while maintaining equal teching/macro facilities, while the zerg has less. At this point in time the zerg MUST switch to ling/hydra to stand a chance (and without sunkens this could be dubious), and in the meantime the terran does not have to split his production of econ/arsenal between larva. It's obviusly not that cut and dry - changes will (and should) be made depending on how each person scouts, but my impression is that trying to accomplish all of that in the early game leaves you slightly behind or slightly weak. however, this needs a hands-on play through to determine for certain. about queens: The intents behind ensnare is only to reduce movement speed. However, across several units in the game, the ROF is affected slightly. I believe Dragoons ROF is affected, as are goliaths. However, firebats and marines ROF is unaffected unless they are stimmed (in which case it negates stim). I do not have a source, though i could try to look it up as it was right here on teamliquid that we did this personal testing when evaluating the viability of the Queen about 5 years ago. lol About ensnare: ensnare is a highly effective tool - i've used it so in every matchup. Infact, i am one of only a handful of people that i've seen use it effectively in WCG games (mora vs korn, 2004. mora vs xiaozi, 2004). The problem is that if the marines see the queen before she casts ensnare (and by cast, i mean the cash of goo actually leaving her mouth), then they actually have time to stim and move out of the way and not be hit by the ensnare. This type of reaction/response is usually not practiced specifically for vsing a queen, but rather simply automatic for good players who react to any dot on their minimap by moving their marines immidiately - thereby missing being hit. thoughts on Ensnare vs Terran critical mass: Once the terran is massed and has 8+ tanks, ensnare becomes useless for these reasons: 1) Tanks are what determine when and where the mass moves. As in all zvt skirmishes, if the tanks are out of position the zerg will dominate (usually with a lurker/ling or lurker/hydra combo). Since these tanks are either in position and seieged (and therefore ensnare becomes moot because the tank is stationary), or they're out of position and you were going to win anyway. (there are exceptions to this rule, but the point is the opening is created by the terran, not by the zerg). 2) Assuming the terran has scouted your combination (if he sees hydra he will react to hydra/lurker/ling, which requires no different a reaction than fighing ling/hydra) which means he should only be travelling on 'safe ground'. This aspect of 'tactics' may be different now than it was when i was active, as i believe nowadays the maps are much more open, making such play very difficult (if not impossible). So when i say 'travelling safe' i mean travelling on the outside paths of Luna (instead of through the middle), between the walls and the cliffs of the middle of Lost Temple, travelling along the cliffs of Gaia, etc. (i guess now that i think about it, on a map like Python the terran really has no 'way' to travel safe.) 3) ultimately my thoughts on terran critical mass and ensnare can be summed up as this: Terran's lack of mobility is already the weakness of the critical mass. Catching a terran offguard is what is going to kill him, and this is true even without ensnare. (though to be fair, most terrans do not change their army positioning when vsing ensnare, so you could argue that these opportunities are created through good zerg-play and [common] terran-ignorance.) Like i said before though: your general theme behind your strat is intriguing. I have some time off work next week, i will try to log on and give it a try. edit - my lacking knowledge of the current meta game may be hruting my ability to understand early game economy. so im trying to keep that in mind. 2nd edit - i apologize if my post is not coherant, i do not have time to proof read it as i am in a hurry. OK Mora i can now finally get to your questions, and hopefully come up with some answers. am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones. 1200 200 150 . 100 100 . 50 100 . 100 150 . 150 75 100 . 100 1200 ----- 3275 . 500 opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics 600 150 125 100 . 100 250 . 250 1000 400 400 250 . 125 ----- 3275 . 475 My fist question is this- How fast can each player create these buildings? I would like to think that zerg can "finish" his BO faster than terran can "finish" his. However without my replays- I have forgotten about my exact timings. What i will suggest, if someone would like to do this before i get my computer- is play my BO vs a computer and do the Bo as fast as possible. Going mass drone whoring. I would be interesting in the timing of these buildings. Next we would also want a good terran player to do the same as the zerg. Play against a computer opponent and see how fast you can build what mora has suggested. I believe that this could give us some insight in the build timings and mechanics. Once again i cannot help with the queen testing. I was always of the camp that ROF was decreased about 20% however like you i have no concrete evidence on that stat. Once again mora- about the fact the queen can "miss" with ensnare- you can target a unit. The ensnare will follow. There is no need to estimate and lead your targets with the queens. Because if you click on an individual unit the ensnare will go to them like a laser guided missile. 1. About the reason you have to go with on ensnare being less useful mid-late game. I have to agree with your point that indeed ensnare does nothing to tanks. However the marines guarding the tanks will still be splooged on. With their movement speed is reduced like this, they cannot prevent my fast moving ground units to closing the distance on the tanks. My mobility can be used to out flank and surround the ball. Any opening i see- i can make a mad dash for the center and the tanks. with more testing and replays i will (hopefully) be able to show how these surgical strikes can effect the ball. Remember that with this build- the likelihood of you "swallowing the ball" in one engagement is unlikely. However- even if you lose the battle you should be able to quickly recreate your fast building and numerous low tier units to give another wave at the ball. 2. As for traveling the "safe" ways. with this build or not- trying to run down a terran ball in an ally is a bad idea no matter what your unit combination is. Lurk ling is shredded- and so is hydra ling. engaging the terran at the rite time and place has always been important in ZVT. I can agree with most of your ideas and comments, but like you also stated- the maps featured on many pro league's have perfect play for this style of zerg. IMO this zerg style may even be map dependent- kind of like terran mech is nowadays. (except opposite of course, zerg wants nice and open) Anyway i hope this helped a bit.  | ||
|
Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:52 AttackZerg wrote: Guys I think you both have relavant points and disagreeing on strategic elements of strategy on a theoretical elements is usefull to the thread and the discussion, but the disagreement is not on topic anymore, suppy go on iccup and try it out! Thank god- you couldn't be more correct. GO TRY THE BUILD- don't write, play! That is what the build need now. Mass games, then commentary. Not commentary and no games  | ||
|
Luddite
United States2315 Posts
| ||
|
Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
(already posted it above!!) In general you cannot say that Ensnare halves ROF. The numbers for different units very significantly and seem irrational. The reason is that Ensnare seems to slows the attack animation, i.e. ROF is only reduced for units that have one. | ||
|
Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
So this is only an indicator, but I was really suprised about the effectiveness of Ensnare/flank and the ball sizes I could take apart, and the amount of map control I consequently had. I never lost map control the whole game, expanded much, and after numerous victorious battles in Python's center plane (one Ensnare caught his vessel cloud, it was a great pleasure of killing off 4 or 5 vessels so easily), my opponent resorted to try drop harass me. While the first drop took me by surprise, I defended subsequent drops with ease due to large amount of mobile units - I only used 3 or 4 pairs of scourge the whole game, as Ensnare also works nicely on shuttles :-) In the end I felt safe enough to try to go guardian instead of ultra/defiler, but partly due to bad army control I lost my initial 10 guards to irradiate in another center battle (I otherwise won). However I was able to replace them so fast that my opponent conceded. BTW I only got 2 queens irradiated in the game but killed about 15+ vessels. Anyways, I had similar problems as SuperiorWolf in macro management, and the early phase of the BO seems quite unrefined yet - I think I went 18 gas, evo, carapace, den, hydra speed, second evo, missile, lair, hydra range, queen's nest; i.e., I got lair later than you, and while not yet having queens I relied on carapace and a large hydra/ling army. A final note, concerning army management (someone thought this problematic): I attached one queen each to each of my control groups of hydra/ling, that proved effective for quickly having a queen at hand while still using the majority of hotkeys for macroing. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
When I'm playing better then I have been today I'll try again and not waste my armies so that I can get to the ensare part  | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On October 28 2008 16:09 Luddite wrote: I can't believe this thread is this long with so many long replies and superiorwolf is the only one who's posted a replay. I doubt this build could ever work, but I'd love to see a "safe" alternative to 3 hatch mutas, plus a viable use for queens and hydras in zvt. My replay shows queens use in zvt resulting in an almost auto win. I have a few replays where I use queens with muta/ling vs oystein ( I lose ) but they are still interesting because I used mass midgame armies with ensare to defend against early mmf balls. I'll ask if he minds if i post 1-2 | ||
| ||
