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b0red111
United States48 Posts
I'm not a T player, but if I saw 3 hatches in the main + nat (the starting one, the expo at 12, and the one at 16-18) I don't think I would be too concerned with looking for a 4th (the 3rd expo at 13). *disclaimer* I'm not sure on the excact timing of the T's scout though, they could very well realize that the 3rd in the main + nat was late and go looking for another one. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army. Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still. The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die. Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill) This is why flanking is so important in this build... You won't have any 'critical mass' of bats to kill zerglings in early mid game. A good flank will easily render 6 bats useless - you'll totally outnumber them. Plus, if you get more bats, that means less medics = less heal in general, and less marines against hydras as well! This is not late game, where you have a billion barracks and can afford to get 12 firebats while still supporting the main backbone of your army, marines and medics. This is a build that aims to take map control and even kill the Terran mid game, but if the game progresses to late game the Zerg will switch to standard hive tech (but with a different combination of units) to combat the Terran ball. In early-mid game, any 'critical mass' of firebats will drastically reduce the number of marine and medic which are key. The ensnare's effects will only be accentuated when there are less medics healing, refuting your argument that ensnare does not affect the rate of healing for medics. Your statement about the vultures taking early game control is also not possible - by the time you have any significant amount of vultures around to lay mines and keep Zerg's map control in check, you'll already have tons of units knocking on your door (unless you've done extremely fast mech, in which case you won't beat Zerg anyways because you won't have enough to defend. Hydras + slowlord that's usually at Terran natural anyways will defeat it easily unless you have a lot of siege tanks, in which case you're giving up map control again and letting Zerg expand). If you decide to turtle with those units, that's fine because the Zerg will just expand everywhere and keep you contained. Against a Fantasy build, if one decides to go vult+tank, it is also counterable by mass expanding and taking advantage of Terran's lack of mobility. Terran takes FOREVER to get outside of their base with mech, and because with 4 hatches you'll have such amazing economy, you'll have extremely fast hive and fast upgrades and fast expansions and fast everything to easily counter the mech. Zerg can also go drops to make Terran unable to move out of their base. Don't be so stubborn in believing that once a Zerg sets on doing one build, they can't adapt. After all, Starcraft is about scouting and changing depending on the situation. The key to stopping this build quickly is by preventing it from ever even beginning; harrassing is key. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 28 2008 10:17 b0red111 wrote: If the point of this build is economy and you are denying the early T map control by producing mass units, is there a reason that you wouldn't expand with your third hatch much like you do in ZvP? I'm not a T player, but if I saw 3 hatches in the main + nat (the starting one, the expo at 12, and the one at 16-18) I don't think I would be too concerned with looking for a 4th (the 3rd expo at 13). *disclaimer* I'm not sure on the excact timing of the T's scout though, they could very well realize that the 3rd in the main + nat was late and go looking for another one. Well as for the 4th hatch- some people at TL have suggested that this hatch be placed at an expo. I have yet to try this, and it does seem valid to me. Once again this strat is still young, and adaptations should and will take place over time. Taking a 3rd expo is probably a good idea. When started to think/play this build doing the 3rd expo just never occurred to me. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army. Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still. The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die. Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill) medibat and vult? really? I have never seen a terran do this. If I see this i will laugh and then switch to muta. Your going to build mass rax and fact? Also holding chokes on the map? What about python? Medusa? Othello? ext. Your never going to be able to cover everything. Zerg will find a way inside. Also you can sit inside your little mine field all day, i can just mass expo- and then get my macro going. No amount of mines will stop me. Also if you truly are going to go medic bat- i hope that you are not going to spend any more gas. This build is gas intensive. You will hardly be able to afford any vessels and just a few tanks. Ensnared bats move really really slow. In fact so slow i can just micro my hydra to move away- or even better- make some muta. I can produce muta quickly and suprizingly fast. While it would take a T who is bat heavy awhile to switch to marines to fight off the muta switch. While i can just simply buy lurker upgrades for 200/200 and transition a few lurks into my build- if i see someone trying this. Also you state that once terran grabs a few gas- but on the other hand your talking about camping behind your mines. Ovie speed is not a big deal for me to upgrade. Hydra deal with mines no problem- unlike dragoons they have a high ROF. No offense but this idea is not even thought out well. I can scout you at any point during your build, and decide to make muta- or just get the lurker upgrade and integrate a few into my army. For the fantasy build- Your early game is vulture harass and drops. If you don't do any damage with this, you will allow zerg to macro style mass expo. With my fast hydra i can counter vults, and drops. Then according to you, T will switch to pure ground mech- forgo making valks or dual ports. T will switch to TVP style of play. I am upgrading my units faster than T is upgrading his metal- i have and upgrade advantage, and because of my hydras earlier on- vults will not slow down my expansions- so i will also have an economic advantage as well. So piled on top of this, i can scout your base- notice that you are going metal- so i can put up a spire. THIS IS POINTLESS people please stop trying to go nuts on paper about games. Of course there is a flaw in every strat- a counter for every counter. Arguing in posts like this is not going to solve anything. People "assume" that when a zerg plays this build they will not scout or adapt to what he/she is seeing. This build is ripe for adapting. Zerg will have many production facilities, good upgrades and a good econ. The smart zerg player should always be adapting to what they are seeing. I am growing tired of players coming into this thread and creating crazy terran all in strats- or coming up with insane unit combos they have never used before- pulling execution out of their asses and then saying, HA just hard countered your build. If your going to come up with a "counter" to this build- please give some reps of your BO, a BO list or something concrete here. I am basing all of my information from concrete Bo's that i have tested as well as a number of other players. Before you share you almighty "counter" see if your Bo is viable on paper first. So please take a lesson from Mora and if your going to voice some criticisms at least base your objections in concrete information- not a hard counter that comes flying out of your ass. | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
A good flank will easily render 6 bats useless - you'll totally outnumber them. It also means your opponent should go back to 1a2a3a4a with protoss. Seriously, flanking 6 bats with some medic support? The terran can just stim, click center of the magic box and watch the medics circle them. Whats worst, Zerglings will target marines that may not even be accessible pathing wise and other stupid things. A strategy where a few medic generating a semi-wall could mess up seems unreliable. I also get the sense that terran that throws up buildings on the field for pathing mess ups would render lings ineffective. It feels like what boxer lives for.... hydra-ling is balanced against marine-bat in a medic-less environment. I don't think beating the three barracks units with those two should be considered anything less than sheer dominance in micro. Against a Fantasy build, if one decides to go vult+tank, it is also counterable by mass expanding and taking advantage of Terran's lack of mobility. Terran takes FOREVER to get outside of their base with mech, and because with 4 hatches you'll have such amazing economy Fantasy build gets vult first, and mines comes a while before speedlords (especially for the tech heavy build) which can contain you in your base. The sheer speed of vultures and reasonable power means it can even pick off isolated hydra-ling groups or go for drone snipes. (especially with help of shuttle that comes latter...and you need an absurd amount of units to deal with the mobility) If your expo was delayed too long due to vult-drone snipe, mines killing your hydra escorts or whatever, the terran rolls you over with tanks before you can macro up to hive tech. There is a decent chance you'd lose even if you get amazing macro if you go pure ground against fully fledged terran metal ball. I'm reminded of Savior VS FBH where 3base FBH managed to outlast Savior with an entire map of resource on python. If the terran takes his half of the map with metal and camps the chokes, it would be damned hard to break at all.... | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
I have am absolutely stunned on where you get this idea that Marine+Firebat = Hydra+Lings. Without any healing power at all, marines effectively 1/4 kill themselves with a stim, and any combination will get absolutely ripped apart without medics against almost anything. Marine+Firebat would lose in cost effectiveness vs. pure ling, so this argument makes no sense at all. Fantasy build you get 1 vulture, WITHOUT MINES, and then you get a Command Center. Fuck, Zerg doesn't even need speedlords. Zerg almost ALWAYS has an overlord at the Terran's nat choke, and hydras have such high ROF compared to other things like dragoons that if you have 5+ hydras, attack moving a low density mine field will kill all the times as soon as they pop out. Why would a smart Zerg have isolated groups of hydraling? And how could a few vultures even possibly consider attacking hydras? Even with mines, you're going to get ripped up before you can do anything. Unless the drop does AMAZING damage, Zerg will be extremely ahead. Why would you need an absurd amount of units to deal with it? You take your army, and just a few hydras will easily dispatch the vultures before too much harm is done. It's not like the Fantasy build gives the Terran some massive force that can come knocking on your front door at any moment. Plus, Fantasy doesn't even stay on vultures, he gets literally like 4 and stops after that. Are you really trying to use FBH vs Savior as support for your argument? I didn't even watch the game, but I know that Savior suicided all his units multiple times. If a Terran turtles, a Zerg EXPANDS. If a Terran turtles like FBH, a Zerg takes the whole map. Savior lost because he sacrificed a bijillion units into a gay turtle. Are you suggesting that all Terrans should get 3 bases and then mass turtle the hell out of them? If so, why don't all Terrans do this? "Hey! If we all turtled on 3 bases, we could beat all Zergs even if they had 12 bases!" Your arguments have almost nothing to do with the topic at hand. They make absolutely no sense at all and make your game knowledge questionable. | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
As for mech vs zerg, terran ranged damage is so powerful that mere armor is not going to cut it against 70 damage hits. If you think vulnerable ground units can rush a metal ball as well as zealots and dragoons, you'll need another head. You need that spire up, and you need it far more than a queen's nest that kills one unit every 2 minutes with a dozen clicks and needs to hover over a stack of hydra to survive. ---- You'll want a spire up, it is just too useful from everything from stopping Terran from whoring island expo to a source of mobility that vastly exceeds hydra that is all over the map, while having only marginally weaker combat power compared to hydra after spending hundreds of gas. Might as well save the gas....right? | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
I am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones. 1200 200 150 . 100 100 . 50 100 . 100 150 . 150 75 100 . 100 1200 ----- 3275 . 500 opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics 600 150 125 100 . 100 250 . 250 1000 400 400 250 . 125 ----- 3275 . 475 as you can see from the figures above (assuming they make sense), the terran has a small army to attack with, while maintaining equal teching/macro facilities, while the zerg has less. At this point in time the zerg MUST switch to ling/hydra to stand a chance (and without sunkens this could be dubious), and in the meantime the terran does not have to split his production of econ/arsenal between larva. It's obviusly not that cut and dry - changes will (and should) be made depending on how each person scouts, but my impression is that trying to accomplish all of that in the early game leaves you slightly behind or slightly weak. however, this needs a hands-on play through to determine for certain. about queens: The intents behind ensnare is only to reduce movement speed. However, across several units in the game, the ROF is affected slightly. I believe Dragoons ROF is affected, as are goliaths. However, firebats and marines ROF is unaffected unless they are stimmed (in which case it negates stim). I do not have a source, though i could try to look it up as it was right here on teamliquid that we did this personal testing when evaluating the viability of the Queen about 5 years ago. lol About ensnare: ensnare is a highly effective tool - i've used it so in every matchup. Infact, i am one of only a handful of people that i've seen use it effectively in WCG games (mora vs korn, 2004. mora vs xiaozi, 2004). The problem is that if the marines see the queen before she casts ensnare (and by cast, i mean the cash of goo actually leaving her mouth), then they actually have time to stim and move out of the way and not be hit by the ensnare. This type of reaction/response is usually not practiced specifically for vsing a queen, but rather simply automatic for good players who react to any dot on their minimap by moving their marines immidiately - thereby missing being hit. thoughts on Ensnare vs Terran critical mass: Once the terran is massed and has 8+ tanks, ensnare becomes useless for these reasons: 1) Tanks are what determine when and where the mass moves. As in all zvt skirmishes, if the tanks are out of position the zerg will dominate (usually with a lurker/ling or lurker/hydra combo). Since these tanks are either in position and seieged (and therefore ensnare becomes moot because the tank is stationary), or they're out of position and you were going to win anyway. (there are exceptions to this rule, but the point is the opening is created by the terran, not by the zerg). 2) Assuming the terran has scouted your combination (if he sees hydra he will react to hydra/lurker/ling, which requires no different a reaction than fighing ling/hydra) which means he should only be travelling on 'safe ground'. This aspect of 'tactics' may be different now than it was when i was active, as i believe nowadays the maps are much more open, making such play very difficult (if not impossible). So when i say 'travelling safe' i mean travelling on the outside paths of Luna (instead of through the middle), between the walls and the cliffs of the middle of Lost Temple, travelling along the cliffs of Gaia, etc. (i guess now that i think about it, on a map like Python the terran really has no 'way' to travel safe.) 3) ultimately my thoughts on terran critical mass and ensnare can be summed up as this: Terran's lack of mobility is already the weakness of the critical mass. Catching a terran offguard is what is going to kill him, and this is true even without ensnare. (though to be fair, most terrans do not change their army positioning when vsing ensnare, so you could argue that these opportunities are created through good zerg-play and [common] terran-ignorance.) Like i said before though: your general theme behind your strat is intriguing. I have some time off work next week, i will try to log on and give it a try. edit - my lacking knowledge of the current meta game may be hruting my ability to understand early game economy. so im trying to keep that in mind. 2nd edit - i apologize if my post is not coherant, i do not have time to proof read it as i am in a hurry. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 28 2008 11:34 SWPIGWANG wrote: It also means your opponent should go back to 1a2a3a4a with protoss. Seriously, flanking 6 bats with some medic support? The terran can just stim, click center of the magic box and watch the medics circle them. Whats worst, Zerglings will target marines that may not even be accessible pathing wise and other stupid things. A strategy where a few medic generating a semi-wall could mess up seems unreliable. I also get the sense that terran that throws up buildings on the field for pathing mess ups would render lings ineffective. It feels like what boxer lives for.... hydra-ling is balanced against marine-bat in a medic-less environment. I don't think beating the three barracks units with those two should be considered anything less than sheer dominance in micro. Fantasy build gets vult first, and mines comes a while before speedlords (especially for the tech heavy build) which can contain you in your base. The sheer speed of vultures and reasonable power means it can even pick off isolated hydra-ling groups or go for drone snipes. (especially with help of shuttle that comes latter...and you need an absurd amount of units to deal with the mobility) If your expo was delayed too long due to vult-drone snipe, mines killing your hydra escorts or whatever, the terran rolls you over with tanks before you can macro up to hive tech. There is a decent chance you'd lose even if you get amazing macro if you go pure ground against fully fledged terran metal ball. I'm reminded of Savior VS FBH where 3base FBH managed to outlast Savior with an entire map of resource on python. If the terran takes his half of the map with metal and camps the chokes, it would be damned hard to break at all.... Ok before posting things about how to counter this build- do yourself and the people reading this thread and look at the Bo and timings of cocaine style. Your going to get 6 or so bats and medics and marines and then push? Ok fine, If you move out later- I will have ensnare ready. Move sooner and ican have a matching force to meet you outside your base. i don't know how long it would take a terran FE to power out bats and medics like you predict so i cannot speculate too much. Medics cannot heal marines and bats when they are moving- only standing still. Don't forget about that. if you medics make the "wall" all of you T players keep talking about- they certainly are not going to be rushing hydras with the bats. my hydra can snipe the bats before they even arrive and start inflicting damage. Well your other option is to have your medics go with your bats possibly? Medics will block their pathing- they cannot heal the bats while on the move- and once again my hydra will destroy them. So your last plan- and probably the best idea is to sit all of your forces into a ball. Great- i can surround, and because of your bat and medic heavy build your lack of marines will not be sufficient against my hydra. woo hoo. LOOK i countered your build on paper. Once again the fantasy build- Vults suck at head on fights. Sorry. hydra ling is far greater than vults will ever be. The high ROF of hydra can snipe most mines, and besides- if your going fast vult, my lords will see this. Because of the lack of marines i can have lords all over the place looking for mines. Also a drop ship. I have hydra- upgraded hydra. Vults are no threat to me, 4 vults in my main is no threat to me. what are you going to do? 4 vults is nothing. As for mines- wow i can run a few lings in and bam. All your mines wasted. I could care less about lings. What i am trying to say is, you are giving a handful of vults far to much credibility. Vults fail at head on fights. Your not going to be able to 'snipe' my hydra groups with your vaults. Once again about the savior vs FBH game- This build will not attack T's nat or main unless it is early game- before mass tank, or late game with ultra and defilers. I am not going to waste money suiciding my units into T. 5 base Z > 3 base T Please how is terran gonig to take half of the map? if you commit to this- you will spend all day trying to defend your side of the map with a slow army- while i can cruise around with a high speed high DPS infest your weak CC's type of army. You won't be able to cover your bases because of my high unit count. I can be everywhere at once. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
So this replay is a 3 hat lurker rush contain > 3 queens for broodling > into defiler. If the game was going longer I was going to go 7-8 hat crackling/ultra. I'm posting because I said it might help. I think my 4 hat lurker/ling/ensare build would be better but I haven't labeled any, I only posted because I mentioned this rep, I'll find others. Also the replay is not of high quality. Edit; this is most effective with fake early speedling attack + fake muta. Tech switches own. I imagine. I'm go to iccup right now and play some C/C+ level games and see how it does. (the cocain zerg that is) | ||
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
I have am absolutely stunned on where you get this idea that Marine+Firebat = Hydra+Lings Starcraft (not broodwar), a game without medics, would be totally unplayable if this where not close to the case. Ever Terran player would just get massed-to-death if the balance worked like that and it would be so bad that its balance would be considered C&C level. and hydras have such high ROF compared to other things like dragoons that if you have 5+ hydras, attack moving a low density mine field will kill all the times as soon as they pop out. Why would a smart Zerg have isolated groups of hydraling? And how could a few vultures even possibly consider attacking hydras? Even with mines, you're going to get ripped up before you can do anything. Hydra have less range and less damage, and even lower hp than goons. If a Zerg moves out with all his hydraling, the vult can base rush. So unless the Zerg decides the sit in his base all day, it will not be able to be stay in a ball all day. While vulture cooldown is not great, it still does 10 damage to a hydra while a hydra does 8 back, add in the gas cost, slower speed and random mine kills and it is not entirely certain that hydra have a edge overall. | ||
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Kallepettersen
Germany24 Posts
what do you think happened after bw hit the scene and people switched from sc vanilla? there were enough people who still tried the old strats (no lurks) and guess what, they got owned with the introduction of medics. The only possible no lurks build is stuff where you rush to guardian or ultralisks, abusing the mobility of muta/ling to prevent him from moving out too soon and killing your expos. Or if u wanna counter some cheesy terran builds, but against a standard m&m heavy fe strat ur just fucked. Hell its annoying that lately people on tl come up with these completely random builds and think they reinvented the matchup... There is a reason no one in their right mind is playing a heavy hydra/ling style against a terran who knows what he is doing. Tbh I dont think Ive EVER seen this by a pro against a standard T strat. It sure must be because those pros dont know jack about strategy... T_T | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
Hydralisk: Medium 80 hitpoints 10 damage (explosive) 4 range (5 upgraded) 15 cooldown Vulture: Medium 80 hitpoints 20 damage (Concussive) 5 range 30 cooldown Hydras and Vultures have the same hitpoints. Hydralisks do do less damage to vulture than vultures do to hydras, but hydralisks have regeneration and double attack rate, making it more equivalent to 16 damage hydralisks to 10 damage vultures in the same period. Their range is the same. @ Kallepettersen Once a Terran is that big, you're no longer on hydra+ling+ensnare. You're on defiler+hydraling+ensnare. You should have several expansions and a much larger army if you don't have defilers yet. "The only possible no lurks build is stuff where you rush to guardian or ultralisks, abusing the mobility of muta/ling to prevent him from moving out too soon and killing your expos." Same deal with hydraling ensnare but you have a better economy and upgrades. Getting to another point: who the hell said this is FBH vs Savior level? We aren't a++++++ progamers. This would probably be most effective up to C level. It would have to undergo extensive testing to see whether it can surpass that mark; testing this build will reveal problems and strengths and viability. Testing is what I plan to do, all this paper argument is futile. | ||
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Kallepettersen
Germany24 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:14 Superiorwolf wrote: Hydralisk: Medium 80 hitpoints 10 damage (explosive) 4 range (5 upgraded) 15 cooldown Vulture: Medium 80 hitpoints 20 damage (Concussive) 5 range 30 cooldown Hydras and Vultures have the same hitpoints. Hydralisks do do less damage to vulture than vultures do to hydras, but hydralisks have regeneration and double attack rate, making it more equivalent to 16 damage hydralisks to 10 damage vultures in the same period. Their range is the same. @ Kallepettersen Once a Terran is that big, you're no longer on hydra+ling+ensnare. You're on defiler+hydraling+ensnare. You should have several expansions and a much larger army if you don't have defilers yet. i dunno what terrans you play against, but if you play at b level or higher armies of that size roll out after 11-12 minutes... especially if he scans your gimmick build and goes 2 fac instead of 2 port to get that invincible ball out even faster... i cant imagine how u wanna go 4 hat mass units with like 2389402 upgrades (evo ups, dual hyd ups, queen ups), expand all over the map and have defilers with consume ready all in 11-12 minutes... No way in hell this is gonna work against a B - A T, let alone a pro. also maybe i exaggerated a bit, even 25-30 m&m and 4 tanks should be enough to crush almost any z ground army (without lurks) with some careful movement and micro. One large problem of hydras vs m&m is that they are medium sized vs small sized marines, means the terran ball has a much higher "power density" (think stacked mutas, they have a huge "power density"). | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:21 Kallepettersen wrote: i dunno what terrans you play against, but if you play at b level or higher armies of that size roll out after 11-12 minutes... especially if he scans your gimmick build and goes 2 fac instead of 2 port to get that invincible ball out even faster... i cant imagine how u wanna go 4 hat mass units with like 2389402 upgrades (evo ups, dual hyd ups, queen ups), expand all over the map and have defilers with consume ready all in 11-12 minutes... No way in hell this is gonna work against a B - A T, let alone a pro. Ok had to get this in before i leave- How much gas do you think it takes for zerg to make 9-12 muta, spire, and then get lurk upgrades and heavy lurk army with upgrades? Also this build is not 4 hatch mass- once again do all of us a favor and READ what has been posted in this thread. This build uses the same amount of gas as zerg playing standard 3 hatch, but instead siphons it off into different revenues of spending. So the gas argument is mute. In fact you could theoretically get a faster hive with this build- but i am hesitant to say so because i don't have enough concrete data to support this assertion. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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Kallepettersen
Germany24 Posts
On October 28 2008 12:31 Superiorwolf wrote: As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before). until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did. also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here: On October 28 2008 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote: Superiorwolf, what is your current iCCup ranking? I would just like to inquire this fact. I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories. edit: just checked out your iccup acc, 64-75 C last season t.t unless you improved drastically and are playing on a secret gosu smurf I guess Im a crapload better than you, B- with positive stats if you care... | ||
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Replay Cast
Sparkling Tuna Cup
WardiTV Invitational
Replay Cast
Clem vs Zoun
Replay Cast
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