EPTI've found parasite to be very annoying, and ensnare gets m&m raped (especially when they're moving out and you flankkkk)
[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 22
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
I've found parasite to be very annoying, and ensnare gets m&m raped (especially when they're moving out and you flankkkk) | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On December 11 2008 17:34 Lucristia wrote: Fair enough, I think you are right. Although, is it really possible for T to transition into metal like that? Especially given that he probably is 0-0 by that point. Also, is going into metal that great of an idea given that the transition will take a lot of time? I mean, you'll probably naturally take more expos when he isn't pressuring you as it is which is generally the preferred counter to metal anyways. I mean we're talking about after the push before defilers. Which by that point, T has something like 5 rax and 2 fact. He's not talking about a full metal build, he's talking about bio supported by more tanks than vessels. Even off of two facts, with good macro, he'll have enough tanks to make your hydra-ling relatively useless. Ensnare is only good if you already have an advantage. It's only useful when the terran is moving, or is forced to move/retreat due to your superior numbers. Combined with swarm and plague, it would be absolutely amazing, but on its own, it has a limited amount of usefulness, as it does very little in limiting the damage output MnM has. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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PePe QuiCoSE
Argentina1204 Posts
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
On December 12 2008 22:16 PePe QuiCoSE wrote: it doesn't fully negate it. There have been several talks about it. It negates the speed stim gives, but only partially the firing rate stim gives (around 20% iirc). No, stim doubles the firing rate of a marine. When an ensnared marine is stimmed it moves at the speed of an unstimmed marine and fires slightly faster than an unstimmed marine. Essentially, ensnare negates stim. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
Why I think this way is because of the amount of mech that you need early on. Getting vultures with mines will really slow down hydras because its really not likely that a zerg will bring an overlord all the time with the army. And goliaths can melt queens pretty good with decent range too. Just saying this out of me being a nubzor. | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On December 13 2008 00:00 JMave wrote: You know, I think if this really succeeds, I find that a standard TvP with the exception of more goliaths woul be a viable counter to this build. Why I think this way is because of the amount of mech that you need early on. Getting vultures with mines will really slow down hydras because its really not likely that a zerg will bring an overlord all the time with the army. And goliaths can melt queens pretty good with decent range too. Just saying this out of me being a nubzor. Keep in mind that 6 hydras on a-move will mow down spider mines no problem (unless there's a lot in one small area, I guess, in which case you may need 9 or something). No ovie needed. Also, isn't mass hydra/ling a good counter to mech? Especially goliath heavy mech. edit: alternatively, you could stream a few lings across the map for cheap mine removal. Point is, I don't think mines are a great idea unless you can hit lurkers or ultras with them. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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Amnesty
United States2054 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
Let's not get into my build, since this is about misrah's build. This replay can help support some issues that are coming up with terran drops. I find that with queens and lings spread all over the map, it is easy to see where the dropships are and coming from. Speedlings are good to fight off drops since it takes time to drop. Hydras are good fighting against a completed drop which hapened in my game. Since with lurker lings, mm can just run from lurkers and mow down lings. With hydras, running is impossible since hydras are so mobile. Also hydras can just pick off 1 marine at a time. Controversy of hydras vs mm. I sincerely think hydras are good. Since in all the hydra micro pros get in zvp nowadays, i really want to see some good hydra micro against terran. Hydras can snipe. Engaging early army hydras are just perfect, killing firebats and even medics with a group of hydras in 1 shot. marines are so weak without medics, it's not even funny. Another issue besides drops are engaging the terran mid-game ball. In standard, zerg can either kill the midgame ball with a huge lurker ling flank which costs a lot of resources or slowly reburrow back and stall time until defilers to save the day. Ensnare is great for stalling. The way i defeateted the terran ball is to ensnare and flank with mutas lurkers hydras and lings. This goes back to my own build and the critique of misrah's build. Hydras are good, but only in the beginning which misrah's build misses teh timing window for with his macro oriented upgrades in missle attack before hydra upgrades or queen upgrades. I don't believe upgrade matters in early game and by late game, you won't be using hydras. In mid game, no matter how you see it, either lurkers or mutas have to be used with the hydraling to kill the terran ball unless your hydra ling army is just crazy huge. Overall, I think that misrah's build is hard to execute and very macro oriented. It is pretty unsafe to early bunker rushes, or sunken break builds. It seems to work well in the beginning versus 1 rax FE, but right after terran bunkers up, terran can macro up their ball pretty well and run over the zerg. Oh yea the replay: http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/3c66b8 Totally different build. Totally different mindset. Totally different idea/strategy behind the way the game should be played out. Includes hydraling and ensnare so there is still relevance. | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
On December 15 2008 18:51 Rucky wrote: I've got a replay based on my own build and strategy idea. It is to use hydra and lings to contain then macro up rather than macro up and build just enough to defend. I feel that when zerg macro's up, terran is given too much time and free of pressure. And with the 4 hatch start from misrah's build, you can't really get a third as fast. Since you're the one defending and terran is attacking. Let's not get into my build, since this is about misrah's build. This replay can help support some issues that are coming up with terran drops. I find that with queens and lings spread all over the map, it is easy to see where the dropships are and coming from. Speedlings are good to fight off drops since it takes time to drop. Hydras are good fighting against a completed drop which hapened in my game. Since with lurker lings, mm can just run from lurkers and mow down lings. With hydras, running is impossible since hydras are so mobile. Also hydras can just pick off 1 marine at a time. Controversy of hydras vs mm. I sincerely think hydras are good. Since in all the hydra micro pros get in zvp nowadays, i really want to see some good hydra micro against terran. Hydras can snipe. Engaging early army hydras are just perfect, killing firebats and even medics with a group of hydras in 1 shot. marines are so weak without medics, it's not even funny. Another issue besides drops are engaging the terran mid-game ball. In standard, zerg can either kill the midgame ball with a huge lurker ling flank which costs a lot of resources or slowly reburrow back and stall time until defilers to save the day. Ensnare is great for stalling. The way i defeateted the terran ball is to ensnare and flank with mutas lurkers hydras and lings. This goes back to my own build and the critique of misrah's build. Hydras are good, but only in the beginning which misrah's build misses teh timing window for with his macro oriented upgrades in missle attack before hydra upgrades or queen upgrades. I don't believe upgrade matters in early game and by late game, you won't be using hydras. In mid game, no matter how you see it, either lurkers or mutas have to be used with the hydraling to kill the terran ball unless your hydra ling army is just crazy huge. Overall, I think that misrah's build is hard to execute and very macro oriented. It is pretty unsafe to early bunker rushes, or sunken break builds. It seems to work well in the beginning versus 1 rax FE, but right after terran bunkers up, terran can macro up their ball pretty well and run over the zerg. Oh yea the replay: http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/3c66b8 Totally different build. Totally different mindset. Totally different idea/strategy behind the way the game should be played out. Includes hydraling and ensnare so there is still relevance. uhm Rucky maybe im doing something wrong but the link you provided seems not to work properly.. Could you either fix it or maybe just state the alias/nickname you played with, so i could search for the rep on the site? The search function they have sadly gives no results if i only type in 3c66b8... thx very much in advance EDIT: seems my internet connection and/or javascript settings messed it up, cuz now i get linked properly, first it redirected me to http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft only.. sry for the unnecessary post.. gogo thread  | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
Also, as far as I am aware, then 2nd evo is then dedicated to +1 melee. Later, Misrah noted that perhaps going ling speed before +1 could be better, but that was notmuch discussed. Also not entirely clear is the 2nd gas timing - I think it was suggested to do this as lair pops, but to my limited experience with this build you wont have enough gas for all planned upgrades this way - I came to the conclusion you need to build it as soons as the nat is saturated with drones. Misrah, perhaps you should add and edited version of the build to the initial post. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Jaedong just used queens for ensnare and parasite, combined with a defiler rush-build and shitraped Fantasy on Sin Chupung Reyong, this is the first loss of the Terrans on that map. Also a lesson about "how to flank" | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
Yea, I told you guys somewhere that queens have a timing window in ZvT. We saw in the game how ensnare synergizes with lurkling defiler. JD went 3 hatch lurk instead of muta harass and did a pincer ensnare dswarm rape in the valley by his nat. | ||
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Wotans_Fire
United Kingdom294 Posts
I'm quite new to the game, have people tried to use queens in the past? | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On December 24 2008 02:08 Wotans_Fire wrote: I can't wait to watch it 21% finished in 4 hours ! I'm quite new to the game, have people tried to use queens in the past? My zerg history is rusty but I believe Chojja and a few other zergs used it now and then. But JD seems to have figured out an entire BO, timing and everything. Pretty much every zerg player has been theorizing on why, when and how to incorporate queens into ZvT for the past what, 10 years? So THIS is REALLLLLLYYYYY exciting for zerg players everywhere. At least I think it should be. Queen use may revolutionize ZvT the way defilers did. MAYBE. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
On December 07 2008 19:20 GHOSTCLAW wrote: it forced flash to go through the middle of the map, which should allow you to surround much easier. I think that the way hyvaa used ensnare in the middle of Andromeda wasn't very good because of the multiple paths of retreat available. Ensnare would work a lot better in a place where you know where the terran's army is going to retreat to. Also it would work a lot better if it was performed by a good player like Jaedong against an overrated player like say fantasy  | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This deserves a bump along with another thread im about to bump too LOL thanks to EEEE JAEEE DOOONGGG! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=80853 I am trying to find another thread that got flamed because it said something about faking Spire and going straight into Lurk fast Hive or something like that.. if anyone can find it and bump it and paste that video please! | ||
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muqoou
31 Posts
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