EPTBasically i am throwing out a plea, will some great players try this? I think that it has a chance to be viable. I can add more replays, but once again- no one seems to care. My skill level is far to low, and i can show nothing.
[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 20
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
Basically i am throwing out a plea, will some great players try this? I think that it has a chance to be viable. I can add more replays, but once again- no one seems to care. My skill level is far to low, and i can show nothing. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
The idea behind the queen use was to mass lings and a few lurks, not going muta, then do a hanbang and defeat most of Flash's army, then finish it with Ultra. He used queens to save gas for his Ultra army. However, he didn't flank Flash's army properly and didn't do maximum damage. He was really unlucky with that attack. The map is Andromeda, which means the Terran is going to pump a literal fuckton of units at a fast pace. Queens work better when there is a small amount of marimedi to ensnare. It is very hard to ensnare a large blob of marimedi and even harder to macro enough troops to kill the group while ensnared. And as we saw, the queens weren't of much use later on when his army was moving around. It is very, very hard to ensnare a moving army. They never seem to clump well enough and your vision is so poor. But here is what I'm suggesting inspired by hyvaa's play. Queens have a slight timing window before defilers and after muta harass... at least on a map that the Terran doesn't get a free 3rd base. At this time the Terran army is small enough to be ensnared with just one or two queens and you might very well do an attack like hyvaa did. I'm talking about using a queen and then doing a lurkling attack. After this, you can switch to defiler play. This attack could potentially reduce the Terran mass and allow victory for you further in the game when you use defilers. That being said, I do not think hydras have any place in ZvT, except to morph them into lurkers. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
I just think hydras should not be totally cast away from ZvT without a thought. Since I think good Hydra-micro can change the whole match up. It's hard for zerg to break into a nat mid-game, but hydras seem to make it a lot easier (i.e. taking out bunkers/buildings and even ledge seige tanks). Also, I like hydras range so you can aggravate the terran army to attack you even when he doesn't want to (i.e. when you have the positioning or army advantage) If he doesn't engage, your hydras gets do deal damage and weaken their army. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
How would the game have gone differently in more capable hands! Regarding thoughts of village_idiot: I think the timing window for queens is larger, as queens and energy upgrade are quite cheap, with 3 or 4 you get a lot of ensnares. Also, I think good ensnaring of bigger balls is quite doable if queens flank as well (contrary to the way Hyvaa used them). Also, Hyvaa did not get to use queens late game as he lost them all quickly due to irradiates. The vessels definitely were a problem, and need to be dealt with. Originally I promoted massing hydra, but currently my opinion (after some games against better opponents, were I played badly, though) I am unsure, as hydra just seem to be to weak in terms of damage vs. marines. So either mix in just enough hydra to deter vessels, or play a more classic lurker/ling with scourge. In any case I think this build fares better on maps with more open ground (such as python) for setting up flanks, locating the enemy army and good use of ensare. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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TJcan
14 Posts
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TJcan
14 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
The window of the queen is before science vessels so therefore no T will not have good vision. Besides, terran is suppose to be spreading their units anyway regardless since fighting against lurkers... I think terran keeps it's army as a ball to stay strong = good for ensnare terran keeps it's army spread out = weak and good for hydras to just come in at certain angles and pick the whole army apart | ||
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Butigroove
Seychelles2061 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On December 04 2008 18:07 TJcan wrote: But if this become a popular strat, then all the T's would just scan ahead and spread it's army ball a little when it sees queensX_X Especially with those vessels the T would have good vision and good luck with flanking:O This is what you want to happen, if you can break and spread the terran ball, the zerg hydraling is going to have the advantage. Your allowing the numerically superior zerg army get a larger surface area on your army. So really, you are accomplishing the whole point of flanking for us. As for magic boxes: no, i don't believe so. However in the hyvaa game he was kind of dumb, and didn't target his ensnare on a specific unit of flashes. He just shot them. So they were not as accurate. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 04 2008 23:09 Butigroove wrote: Do magic boxes work for ensnare? Of course, but you can't target units. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On December 04 2008 18:22 Rucky wrote: And I want to be the zerg to do it. ROFL just a dream -.- The window of the queen is before science vessels so therefore no T will not have good vision. Besides, terran is suppose to be spreading their units anyway regardless since fighting against lurkers... I think terran keeps it's army as a ball to stay strong = good for ensnare terran keeps it's army spread out = weak and good for hydras to just come in at certain angles and pick the whole army apart mostly true and agreed with. one nitpick- this strat still holds between when sci vessels come out and when defilers come out- ensnare works well on sci vessels in groups, becuase then you can scourge them. ultra/ling is yet another example of the zerg army being more mobile than the t army, and you can use ensnare to your advantage as well. | ||
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Ideas
United States8167 Posts
On December 04 2008 11:18 GHOSTCLAW wrote: I think that this game shows how viable the queens are as a midgame strat, even at a high level. the problem wasn't the queens, it was the fail of the flanks. I think his flanks and micro at that point might of been so awful because he wasn't used to also managing queens (like just about all Z players aren't). | ||
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WhenHellfreezes
United States81 Posts
My personal thought is why dont you do muta/ling with queens instead of hydra/ling. My thinking being that if you do a 2 hatch or 3 hatch muta build you can somewhat cover the terran timing push(the traditional one where he moves out after FE) where as I don't see you having a solid counter to that push until queens come out with ensnare which would be similar timing as skipping muta into straight lurker. People nowadays don't skip into straight lurker because it comes a little late and I see a good terran taking this push when you don't have your queens yet. But you should consider a muta/ling + queens idea its similar covers the timing a bit, forces turrets and is more mobile. Also I think standard zvt with lurkers is fine. Edit: typos | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
A: muta cost 25 more min and 75 more gas. hydra/ling is use to stall for time with contains, expo kills, and back stab threats. With the extra min and gas saved, you can go early hive. Building 12 hydras instead of 12 mutas will give a surplus of 900 gas. Potential for 4 ultras. Also, hydras go along with ensnare better than mutas do. a group of marines with ensnare is still a threat to mutas because of their shorter range. mutas will die as they try to pick off marines. hydras have a greater range and can pick off marines without the marines in the row behind attacking them. As ensnared marines run away, hydras can give chase better. (hydra micro) Hydra range = 4/5upg ; Marine range = 4/5upg (interesting to see some kind of fast hydra upg rush since 1rax expand = later acad = later upgrades [ people usually stim first then range too] Hydra range 5 vs marine range 4 THAT I LIKE TO SEE I'm just giving the answer to the question why this build uses hydra/ling. I'm not saying it's better than muta/ling. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
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WhenHellfreezes
United States81 Posts
I'm thinking about doing the standard muta timing and getting 9-11 muta then adding queens nest. @Rucky Um you have a point that hydras save gas. However I feel that muta/ling will infact benifit alot from ensnare, hydra/ling cannot stop the timing push, 12 hydra's are not nearly as effective as 12 muta's and muta/ling is still very mobile so it definetly can still track down expansions and threaten backstabs. Also it forces turrets. These are just my personal opinions and may not be correct. | ||
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