***UPDATED*** ***Look for Mora's Thoughts on this BO (A Must Read!)***
Well i would like to start off by saying that, no i am not pro- in fact i consider myself to be just a bit above deplorable when it comes to playing SC. (For all you icup kids my highest rank was a C ok?) I am writing this guide because for 2 weeks now, i have gone with ought a game of SC because of computer problems. I am writing this guide to A. Facilitate my addiction to SC because lately i have not been getting my daily dose; and B. Because i was working on these two little ditties before my computer blew up, and candidly I'm exited to think what the community has to say about my little experiments.
To start; I guess I will let fly with my crazy TVZ strat which, strangely enough might be a rape counter to the "fantasy" build everyone seems to be so curious about. Basically before i begin my BO and break it down, i would like to try and theory craft my strategy out to you so you don't have to waste all of your life reading the ramblings of me.
(Disclaimer I make many bold and insane statements, please read them- and don't flame me or my IQ instead please try and constructively use the flame throwers.)
My idea is simple; the begging of my theory crafting began about 1 month ago in a hot-tub; i digress. I was talking to my good friend and terran player over a few drinks, and i began talking to him about standard TVZ play, and why IMO it needed a rework from the old Muta- to lurks type that is ohh so common nowadays. I had been watching videos of tvz at that time, and i hated mid-game TVZ. Basically your T has their group of M&M and a few tanks with a vessel or two (plus or minus the few you can scourge) Needless to say, i saw a huge problem. Zerg sucked; no defilers are out yet- and frankly IMO engaging a T army is a good way to suicide your units. I wanted to find away around this little problem in tactics. Now we all know that defilers destroy T, the only problem is getting defilers out in time to save your expos and hopefully your army.
But what if zerg changed the whole mentality of mid-game TVZ? What if zerg could and WOULD like to attack and trade armies with T? zerg's unit rebuild rate is far greater than that of any other- so why not try and use this advantage to a greater means? My (possibly retarded) idea was slowly taking shape in my mind. Sauron zerg? no no i had thought- far to weak m&m > Hydra and ling however, i wasn't satisfied with this conclusion and had to try a few experiments.
I began thinking of the problems with lurk ling engaging m&m. IMO i came to the following conclusions: (you could almost state these as proofs*Note when i say proofs i am describing them to my level of play and experience, please point out if blatantly incorrect*) 1. Zerg units are faster than Terran (minus the vulture) However army wise i give overall ground mobility to zerg.
2. Terran units are strong in static defensive positions, excel in one front battles- and are weak when they become separated from the ball, and become less effective the more "fronts" the ball is faced with.
3. Zerg armies are massive, and preferably it is good logic to have increased surface area on your target of choice. In order to do this, flanks and pincer attacks are a great way to increase your armies surface area. In order to do so, having fast moving units would make these maneuvers far easier and more effective.
4. Lurkers take a while to build and are rather expensive (100-125 total) While they do shred marines like butter they have a few (IMO MAJOR) flaws that needed to be addressed. Now normally it is commonplace to always try and engage the T army when your lurkers are in place (in defensive positions) I had always thought that doing so would make your army more cost effective and worth wile, than the alternative- attacking T. Lurkers are slow, and cannot do any damage until burrowed. When finally burrowed most (if not all) of your lings are dead- and your lurks are now out of range, because the terran simply moved back.
While I'm not trying to make the argument that one cannot flank with lurks, and be successful- i am trying to say that with vessels, T's vision range is quite large. If your flank is spotted everything is all for naught. The only thing you have accomplished is buying your self more time for those precious defilers.
5. Queens (plz don't write me off as a noob because i just used the Q word, i do realize what connotation the q word brings to a discussion.) Normally thought of as an expensive waste of gas. Which i happen to agree with (if your playing standard TVZ) However look at them from this point of view. Queens are only useful IMO for ensnare. Ensnare is BEASTLY and when ensnared terrans already slow army just got slower.
Ensnared terrans army becomes ripe for Pincers, flanks and many pronged attacks. However, just one problem. Queens cost gas, precious gas that normally zergs cannot spare.
6. This brings me to my final point of my basis for the construction of my TVZ strat. Gas, and how it effects zergs gameplay and frame of mind in TVZ.
Gas is all important. 2 gas zerg is not going to last long in any TVZ once mid-game comes around. The third gas is all important to help sustain your gas heavy lurks, upgrades, and your muta harass. So i began thinking, is there anyway a zerg player could either use gas in a different frame of mind or simply find a way to use less and still get by in mid-game TVZ? (with-ought gosu micro?) with this task set before me i set to work on how to play a pseudo-standard Z vs a standard T game and come out on top.
My first hurtle to overcome was the fact that in my mind m&m > Hydra ling. I had always found that Hydra Ling was not cost effective to m&m. So how can i try and find away around this problem? So i came up with three solutions. 1. Upgrades 2. Production 3. Ensnare
First and foremost- to try and stand a fighting chance against standard one or two rax T play into standard mid-game T army with pure ling hydra and a few queens.
So I guess im going to try and begin the build order and try to explain what i am trying to do at each step of the way in the most logical thought process i can muster.
This build requires economy, and i have found through the dozen or so games i have played using this strat that good macro and economy is key. (NO I'm not going to explain every little *build one ling here, make sunken now*, type of BS. This BO is a work in progress and frankly anyone that is going to be able to understand this whole concept shouldn't need a whole page of rhetoric on how to handle early game zvt.) 12hatch 11pool 13hatch 16hatch
Now the reason that i add the fourth hatchery in there is because of the production that this strat requires in the mid-game. Now this looks almost like a ZVP build and i guess it can somewhat be traced to this type of game philosophy in the roots of my play.
18gas When gas pops through down an evo chamber. (+1 missle attacks to start) *Just to get it out of the way the gas list -1st 100 goes to +1 Missle -next 100 goes to lair -next 50 hydra den -next 100 ling speed -next 150 hydra range *End gas list for now I normally will start my second gas nearly at the same time as if i was playing 3 hatch muta.
Now it is imperative to keep in mind the fact that drone whoring here is key. You want to try to keep those little buggers coming for as long as possible.
So now we have our T friend. Hopefully you killed the scout before it spotted your extra 4th hatch, needless to say he/she should think that you are playing standard, and will play standard accordingly. Now the first threat to zerg is T's first "baby" push with a half or a control group of rines with medics. Normally zerg would sunk up and give map control up while continuing to drone whore, and wait for muta.
With my build (and mindset) i try to relinquish map control for the shortest amount of time possible. When T comes with his little excursion force (mostly used to FORCE zerg to build sunks) Which wastes drones, mining time and money- for a static defense. In my perfect world and preferably in my strategy you should counter this attack with your lings. This won't be such a detriment to your economy because of your extra hatch and you should be able to comfortably be able to continue making drones while throwing a larve here and there for zerglings/hydra to repel this first attack.
*Back to Gas List* Once Lair Pops- throw down a Queens nest. You WILL need it for Midgame T After Hydra Range is finished, start speed. Once +1 Missle finishes Start +1 carapace Queen nest pops- start ensnare asap Get a Queen goddamit -2nd evo sometime in here (sorry i don't know the exact timing- basically it should be at a time before your q-nest compleats but never after queen) *End Gas List*
At this point in your game you should have -4 hatch -2 gass -2evo - As many freaking drones as you could possibly get - A plethora of ling and hydra -1 Queen With Ensnare *take your 3rd whenever you can/feel comfortable* Once your 3rd is secure and you are harvesting gass, take a fourth (i like min only) expos. ^^^^^Basically at this point in the game, your ground army should be able to match toe to toe with his, any extra money that you have- save for more hatcheries. (play the adding hatcheries like you would in a ZVP)
Ok so back to our little T friend. Because he has maphack and will scan the shit out of your base, he will know exacly what you are doing. (unless you hide your shit at your 4th hatch and you are lucky enough for him not to scan it.) Lets assume the worse and say that indeed he has scanned your base. He should see a den, evo and you morphing your lair. He is thinking three things. 1. 3 hatch lurks (get a fast tank and try to contain zerg) 2. That crazy fast ultra build ohhh noes! (idk they might think this if they are as dumb as me) 3. Slow drops
So now i will try and lay what (mostly i encountered when playing standard T and doing the above strat.) First and foremost i found that i could mass up quite a large number of drones before having to really start switching into mass army mode. I found that because of the freedom i have now playing this build (instead of standard 3 hatch) is the fact that i don't have to try and time 9 muta. Instead i can spend my money on more drones and get 7-8 more drones mining minerals (if not more) and begin to really "Form" a substantial ground army that can go toe to toe with an late early game/ early mid game T army.
Because of this radical change in the spending of zergs money- i now have a fairly sizable ground force, and i can take the fight to Terran. Im not harassing im attacking at this point. Now In (i would say about 50-60%) of my games i played against FE T I could attack his natural, and not only do damage to his economy- but i could cut his army down to a fraction of the size. Now i have just traded armies with T. But the catch is, i can rebuild my army faster- and have taken 1-2 more expos in this time.
In the off chance that i couldn't attack and semi-crack his natural expansion, the game turned into your typical Standard T mid-game army moving out vs my Ling, Hydra and 1-2 Queens. I have one thing to say: Ensnare on the terran ball does wonders. Upgraded ling and hydra speed lets you run circles around T It's almost funny. However, with-ought Ensnare, you can get screwed fast if your economy is sub par to his.
Because zerg is forgoing the muta harass in this build, and doesn't build a spire till mid-late or late game, terran is going to have a more substantial army and be more keen to move out earlier, and when you are playing this build it is important for you to be aware of this- and be prepared. Once you can crush their army, your production rate should be higher and skyrocketing higher and higher the longer T lets the game go on. Mass hatch and Mass expos are indeed thrilling, if you can crush thier first (early because of lack of muta harass push)
Your transition into late game should mirror what is standard play in zvt. Your still trying to go and get your defilers up ASAP followed with the inevitable ultra den. Ensnared marines cannot run from swarm. Because most of your gas (from 3 gas) is just used for hydra, and the odd queen or two your gas reserves should be fine to support hive play.
I have tried to outline for you my interestingly retarded idea on TVZ and how I think that the mindset surrounding zvt should be looked at from another point of view. To recap: I believe that instead of harassing terran with muta, while simultaneously grabbing your 3rd expo and trying to maintain map control with a handful of fragile units could be replaced with a different and possibly just as successful alternative of meeting the terran army toe to toe and beating the shit out of them. The reason that i believe that my strategy is superior to the 3 hatch lurker build is because of the fact that IMO 3 hatch lurker makes you vulnerable to contain, and gives up map control far to easily. My build attempts to counter this map control problem by using zerg units that are cheap, quick to produce and are low tier units. Mixed with the odd queen or so these low tier ground units can out maneuver and overwhelm a terran force far more efficiently then 6-7 lurkers with some lings.
Because i feel that i am going to lose all of credibility as a player/person/human being with the above post, im also going to give my take on zvp in a very condensed form. I am writing this condensed zvp on (zerg on crack) because I'm tired, and don't wont to go to crazy if none of my ideas are going to be received well.
**New content- Mora's Thoughts!** Mora's ideas about scouting- and how imperative it is that you have precise scouting through the mid-late game. if you want to be successful with this build.
On October 31 2008 11:27 Misrah wrote: Ohh- about that. Just commenting on Rucky's youtube video. He gets a crazy fast hive, after semi spoiling terrans mid game 3tank 1 vessel push.
i just watched the game. my thoughts:
This wasn't the strategy discussed on here at all. This was 2base fast hive tech. We can discuss the merits of such a strategy in a different thread. In the meantime i am going to imagine accurate situations relative to the general pacing of this game and cocain zerg.
what the terran should have done differently:
The terran made tons of turrets when there were no muta coming. That money could have been spent on making his mid-early game army bigger.
If you're not going muta, the terran should contain you as soon as possible with his initial group of marines while scouting for an expo. Once he finds expo he should take his containing army and attack it.
I do think it is possible to produce an army during this time period in order to save your expo - but this puts your drone production on hold; in the meantime the Terran economy is still escalating. This is the most crucial part of the build (and what i believe to be the absolute most difficult part of the build: you must switch between economy and army production at the exact right times. Any error on this front will either lose you the game or put you significantly behind an opponent who has equal macro.
Based on the pacing of the game, the following thoughts were provoked.
The nucleus of the strategy resides on responding to Terran movements and Terran production - or, in practical terms: precise scouting.
The Early Game
Scouting
- with overlords (including sacrificing them to do so) as required.
- Perhaps getting burrow to allow lings to sit in key locations before vessels are out
- Using lings to constantly monitor the size of his mobile force
The Zerg needs to entice the Terran out of his base as early as possible. You want to keep his army count down as much as possible - which means luring him out when you're army can beat it. - The zerg may do this by expoing agressively. The timing of when you build your army to defend your agressive expoing is crucial which you depend on scouting to indicate.
- The zerg may want to show hydra tech to entice the Terran to try to contain. By getting lings out before his contain moves into place, and again massing at the right time (as soon as he starts moving) you can pincer his attack in your choke point.
- The zerg may - though risky - mass units early game and feign an attack on the terran losing a control group-ish amount of lings and retreating. If he takes the bait you slay his army. If he doesn't take the bait you've taken a major econ hit.
- "Defenseless overlords" - by placing an overlord in his choke as bait, and a 2nd overlord within sight range of that overlord, he may try to kill both the defenseless ovies. If he goes for the second overlord, he's lost his army. This obviously suffers the same problem as above - if he doesn't take the bait, and you've produced an army that can kill him if he does, you're behind in econ.
The Mid Game
Assuming that you've played the early-mid game correctly the terran has been bitten at least once, and should be a little wary to move out.
- He should be nearly done solidifying his first Ball, and is getting ready to move out. Alternatively, your econ should be up and kicking and you're now focusing on massing an army.
- This is when your queens will come into play (so you better have some). The second he moves out you ensnare him and wait for him to either a) move out of position and you rape his ass (again), or b) remain passive and attempt to secure an expansion - You won't be able to stop him from taking a close expansion (unless of course he moves out of position to do so - which was option a from the point above.) That's fine though - you're expanding and teching.
Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
If you've been successful thus far, the Terran is reluctant to move out until he feels confident that the quantity of his units makes up for their lack of mobillity. The whole point of this stage of the game is to stall for hive tech.
- Somewhere inbetween Mid and Late game you will want to start integrating drops. These will help hurt his macro and keep him on tilt. If you take out a few structures or force him to retreat with part of his army, he may become restless with his Ball and want to counter attack moving himself foolishly out of position. Remember to use your queens to ensnare the incoming base-liberators for extra psychological effect!
The Late Game
The strongest part of this strat is the late game. You've controlled the map which has allowed you to obtain many expansions. You're tech is at the highest tier and just needs fleshing out where needed. Your macro has been in full force for quite some time, and if you've managed to survive this long then you've bared your teeth and bitten him on a few occasions.
- You should have defilers out and in position to use dark swarm as needed. Plague should be researching.
- You'll want to grab lurker tech for easy defense. You'll want to throw down a spire for scourge. You'll want to be throwing down an ultra den (the bigger your advantage in economy, the sooner you should have ultras. if your economy is not significantly ahead, defilers are much more integral to your arseanl. Do not forgo defilers/plague in lieu of ultras.
- Don't forget your queens. Even if you're spending your mana on MASS parasiting to keep your scouting up (and him busy curing it) or saving your mana on your 12 queens to broodling-massacre his tanks, your queens are an awesome boon in any battle.
The rest is up to you!
REPLAYS WILL BE PROVIDED WHEN MY COMPUTER COMES BACK (IF ANYONE ASKS/CARES/WANTS TO SEE MY INSANITY)
Condensed Zerg on crack vs P BO (works great vs FE ok vs 2 Gate but sux against 1 gate tech)
GOGOGOG misrah's choguling make you look like a min hacker BO vs P 12hatch 11pool 13hatch 16hatch 18gass (please note that throughout this build you should be drone whoring constantly. Build just enough ling/sunk to survive while also keeping in mind that ANY AND ALL EXTRA MINERALS SHOULD GO INTO MAKING HATCHERIES) I want your base to look like a min hacker just got his hands on it lol Once gas pops put up an evo first 150 gas get +1 Carapace -As soon as you get +1 started through down another Evo ASAP next 100 get +1 attack -next 100 get lair -next 100 Ling speed -right when lair pops grab your 2nd gas -Start Spire asap -next 150 get lord speed (Begin mass production of lings, You will not stop producing these things ever. you want to have a river flowing at all times in you mini-map *which requires a shit ton of hatcheries and minerals* don't take a gas expo- you don't need to the gas (Yet) -when lord speed is 50% complete get your queens nest (Now depending on the Protoss, get scurge to kill sair- and check to make sure if P is got his Robo going, if that is happining get +1 Flyer crapace as well) Get Hive when Q nest completes Stop mining from second Gas **** Important when +1 Carapace and attack completes get +2 for both, and the +3 ok?** Once hive compleats- build overlord drop, and Adrenal glands. Then when you feel the time is right slowly transition to super early fully upgraded ultra to compliment your pure ling army. Because frankly at this point, your going to start to need those ultra if P has more than 3 gass (archons suck in big numbers)
Basically this strat, as crazy as it sounds- pure ling. Has served me well in the past (the past being 2 weeks ago- when my computer still worked) I love this strat because, well what can i say; There is no more satisfying feeling than keeping P pushed inside of their base because of a river of highly upgraded zerglings constantly knocking at their door. They can't leave, and because of the insane mobility of your lings- you can surround, and be everywhere on the map. Once lord speed finishes you can also begin constantly dropping lings inside of their base, or expos- or if they were a pussy and grabbed the island base, begin doom dropping it. I figure that the zergling deals the most damage of any unit in the game (per second) (besides a nuke) why not use them to full potential? Storm may kill a shit ton, and so may archons. But the whole idea is- you can make more.
If you got through this whole (me being semi-intoxicated fresh out of the hot-tub) puke onto paper of a guide a give you kudos and cannot wait to hear your scathing, and hopefully cheery comments.
Gah- I'm afraid that is going to have to wait on the reps, till my computer comes back from HP wear houses in Huston Texas. However If there is indeed interest i will post many, and hopefully give commentaries.
Interesting idea...though, as mentioned above me, replays are required to know for sure. Good OP explaining the ins and outs of it though. I still have trouble seeing, however, how the zerg is going to beat the first 9 min. push that terran does (but don't take my opinion heavily =O). The push will be stronger, as you mentioned, due to no muta harass as well as no need for turrets, and faster, as you also mentioned (thanks to no need for a quicker vessel). The only way to slow down and weaken his push before it actually happens is through your mid-game attack. However, whatever he thinks after he scans, it will definitely draw a defensive reaction through the mid game (especially considering your lair is significantly later than usual), which, outside of a mistake by terran, will make it very hard to do a lot of damage to his mid game push. Hydra ling is really inefficient against mnm and tank, and though a queen might help against that, if terran slowly pushes to your base with tanks, while spreading out his marines, you'll still need defilers to break his much bigger push. Ensnare is just so much less reliable and concrete than an area of invincibility =O.
On October 26 2008 16:56 nevake wrote: Interesting idea...though, as mentioned above me, replays are required to know for sure. Good OP explaining the ins and outs of it though. I still have trouble seeing, however, how the zerg is going to beat the first 9 min. push that terran does (but don't take my opinion heavily =O). The push will be stronger, as you mentioned, due to no muta harass as well as no need for turrets, and faster, as you also mentioned (thanks to no need for a quicker vessel). The only way to slow down and weaken his push before it actually happens is through your mid-game attack. However, whatever he thinks after he scans, it will definitely draw a defensive reaction through the mid game (especially considering your lair is significantly later than usual), which, outside of a mistake by terran, will make it very hard to do a lot of damage to his mid game push. Hydra ling is really inefficient against mnm and tank, and though a queen might help against that, if terran slowly pushes to your base with tanks, while spreading out his marines, you'll still need defilers to break his much bigger push. Ensnare is just so much less reliable and concrete than an area of invincibility =O.
Agreed here.
Queens energy is alot less forgiving then defilers, if you fuck up the ensnare, you just wasted 300 gas on nothing. And im honestly curious if a mass hydra ling army with ensnare could go toe to toe with pure SK or 2fact, from my experience hydralisks are awful zvt.
The problem with queens is, that if you miss your ensare your doomed..'Queens cannot consume and the energy regeneration is too slow. that is the only reason why people don't use them.
Well I can't understand how the 16hatch works at all, you definitely aren't constantly producing anything if you're getting 16hatch. Also, when terran sees something funny going on they will probably add firebats to their first move-out army, so your lings will be burnt up and terran will have map control and just rally everything to your nat, with no threat of lurkers or defilers anytime soon. At best, you manage to kill his group with minimal losses and gain some form of map control. He can just sit in his nat and drop you. Not to mention his tanks will fairly quickly remove your contain. In the zvp, p will propably react to this by sitting in their nat also and massing gates, or just by going reaver/sair. Now, if you can at best match his unit count he's still going to be able to move out and expo. You won't be able to stop him from moving out at a certain point. Also, I find it hard to understand how you can both match his unit count and expo at the same time. I think it's impossible, which is why people tech. In fact, I'm not even sure you can match either t or p's unit count even without expoing, even by using every drop of your money from 3base I think both t and p can outproduce you off 2base. I think your strategy relies on p/t being stupid and not understanding what you're doing, and moving out too early. All of t/p's tech units will be rough on you, since tech kills more than one unit at a time more or less, and you're relying on a very precious unit count. Even with a high drone saturation you can't be as reckless with your units as you seem to think. This is all assuming a competent p/t btw.
On October 26 2008 19:11 Nightmarjoo wrote: Well I can't understand how the 16hatch works at all, you definitely aren't constantly producing anything if you're getting 16hatch. Also, when terran sees something funny going on they will probably add firebats to their first move-out army, so your lings will be burnt up and terran will have map control and just rally everything to your nat, with no threat of lurkers or defilers anytime soon. At best, you manage to kill his group with minimal losses and gain some form of map control. He can just sit in his nat and drop you. Not to mention his tanks will fairly quickly remove your contain. In the zvp, p will propably react to this by sitting in their nat also and massing gates, or just by going reaver/sair. Now, if you can at best match his unit count he's still going to be able to move out and expo. You won't be able to stop him from moving out at a certain point. Also, I find it hard to understand how you can both match his unit count and expo at the same time. I think it's impossible, which is why people tech. In fact, I'm not even sure you can match either t or p's unit count even without expoing, even by using every drop of your money from 3base I think both t and p can outproduce you off 2base. I think your strategy relies on p/t being stupid and not understanding what you're doing, and moving out too early. All of t/p's tech units will be rough on you, since tech kills more than one unit at a time more or less, and you're relying on a very precious unit count. Even with a high drone saturation you can't be as reckless with your units as you seem to think. This is all assuming a competent p/t btw.
are we talking supply or actualy units here? by all means zerg have more units in most situations. if were talkign supply then protoss gets maxed the fastest.
I did a hydra break the other day where i timed my attack for hydra range, speed, and +1 damage for my hydras against a 1rax fe terran who was doing some metal/two port nonesense. If you can attack with a decent group of hydras before tanks come, you can generally force a lift or even snipe the cc, putting you way ahead.
i feel bad knowing that you guys are clammering for replays, and i am going to have to wait awhile before my computer is back and i can begin giving them to you, and playing with these stratagies more.
A few concerns that i would like to try and adress:
As far as 16- yes you do have to cut drone production for a short while, but when your 4th hatch pops you can produce more drones than off of 3 hatch.
For a T that begins to play defensive and doesn't move out- I have a very simple answer to that. THAT IS GREAT!!!!!!!!!! What more could you ask for? Your delaying his push because he is unsure about himself. That is perfect for you, make another hatch- try and grab an expo- make more drones. With him not moving out and fighting he is giving every zerg player a wet dream- more time to get to defilers. I still don't understand how that is a bad idea? I can promise you that 4-5 hatch at your nat and main can make more drones than he can SCV's- and you can also create an army faster than he can.
It is important to note that with my strat against T the possibility of trading armies- or even trading just your army is fairly high. However (and i hope to show this with the replays) that this is good and even constructive for you (as zerg) Remember you can always build more units faster than T can. These units can arrive at the battle field faster, and replentish lost units far qicker than T can.
For the early game "baby push" T plays with a half or a control group of rines with a few medics- simply put if T is going to wait for bats you can easily have more hydra in your countering group. From what i have seen, ling hydra vs MARINE (no medic) is infact quite viable. Only when the MEDIC count is getting higher in the m&m group do you start needing ensnare- ensnare that you will have at that point in the game.
As for ensnare, and queens- One Queen costs 100/100 You can easily make 2 or 3 right off the bat, and once ensnare is complete get queen energy. Fully charged with mana the queen can fire 2 consecutive ensnares, and only has to wait a short 50 mana before being able to fire 3. I think that the point of "missing" with ensnare is conpleatly insane because, you can click on a unit and target one specific unit in the T army. No offense but missing with ensnare? really? besides that you will have 2 at this point.
I hope that i have answered a few questions, if these are not sufficiant- please let me know and we can try theroy crafting some more.
If the basis of your early game defensive play is units over sunkens then your 3rd or 4th hatch definitely should be at another expand. This would give you a much better lead vs FE Terran and if your not gonna make sunks then it's all the same, just move your army. Making 4 hatch in your 2 base seems silly to me as a protoss player.
This build probably needs to be refined but I definitely agree with where you're coming from and the problem that exists in ZvT vs SK right now.
Offensive usage of Lurkers without swarm is simply not cost-effective, you dont see Terrans siegeing their Tanks right in front of the enemy on purpose.
On October 27 2008 01:02 Misrah wrote: i feel bad knowing that you guys are clammering for replays, and i am going to have to wait awhile before my computer is back and i can begin giving them to you, and playing with these stratagies more.
A few concerns that i would like to try and adress:
As far as 16- yes you do have to cut drone production for a short while, but when your 4th hatch pops you can produce more drones than off of 3 hatch.
For a T that begins to play defensive and doesn't move out- I have a very simple answer to that. THAT IS GREAT!!!!!!!!!! What more could you ask for? Your delaying his push because he is unsure about himself. That is perfect for you, make another hatch- try and grab an expo- make more drones. With him not moving out and fighting he is giving every zerg player a wet dream- more time to get to defilers. I still don't understand how that is a bad idea? I can promise you that 4-5 hatch at your nat and main can make more drones than he can SCV's- and you can also create an army faster than he can.
It is important to note that with my strat against T the possibility of trading armies- or even trading just your army is fairly high. However (and i hope to show this with the replays) that this is good and even constructive for you (as zerg) Remember you can always build more units faster than T can. These units can arrive at the battle field faster, and replentish lost units far qicker than T can.
For the early game "baby push" T plays with a half or a control group of rines with a few medics- simply put if T is going to wait for bats you can easily have more hydra in your countering group. From what i have seen, ling hydra vs MARINE (no medic) is infact quite viable. Only when the MEDIC count is getting higher in the m&m group do you start needing ensnare- ensnare that you will have at that point in the game.
As for ensnare, and queens- One Queen costs 100/100 You can easily make 2 or 3 right off the bat, and once ensnare is complete get queen energy. Fully charged with mana the queen can fire 2 consecutive ensnares, and only has to wait a short 50 mana before being able to fire 3. I think that the point of "missing" with ensnare is conpleatly insane because, you can click on a unit and target one specific unit in the T army. No offense but missing with ensnare? really? besides that you will have 2 at this point.
I hope that i have answered a few questions, if these are not sufficiant- please let me know and we can try theroy crafting some more.
What I meant was that they won't move out as they would scanning 3 hatch lurker with their half ball. They'll wait until they get some tanks and push out at the same time as normal, unhindered by any harass.
Interesting. When I first read a couple paragraphs I had written it off, but the logic behind it seems solid. I'm not sure about execution, but I'm willing to try it a few times.
On October 27 2008 03:23 Chill wrote: Interesting. When I first read a couple paragraphs I had written it off, but the logic behind it seems solid. I'm not sure about execution, but I'm willing to try it a few times.
Omg chill said something not to scathing about a stratigical idea of mine? holyshitdreamcometruelifeisnowcompleate
Ok but seriusly: Regardless of my strat i would like to try and make it blatently clear what my strat is trying to accomplish and how i think that all zergs should try and look at the TVZ MU in a differn't light.
We should think about gas, it's distrabution- and consumtion in zerg play. Realize that you are mining a finite amount of gas and that- while it does need to be spent, spend the gas in a way that is differn't from normal play.
The Second thing that should come to Z's attention is simply the fact that IMO *i cannot stress this enough* zerg is not taking the fight to T the way zerg plays P. Zerg tries to hide behind teck units, defilers- or lurkers- and muta. Muta are a great example, all you are doing is buying time- muta suck against fighting terran head on. They do not give map control, they give the apperance that zerg has map control. They are horrid. Irradidate kills them, marines kill them- they are expensive and IMO are easily countered by terran- when doing a 3 hatch muta build (of course 2 hatch muta is a differn't story- however that is a differn't strat and does not have any say in this topic)
The Third thing that i wish zerg players should look at how the terran ball is attacked. In standard play, you are only to do so when you have a huge advantage, or swarm. There should be a way to fight them toe to toe mid-game. Zerg does well with mass hydra/ling vs protoss armies- why not try it with T?
The fourth idea that should cross everyones mind- is simply the fact that the current play in ZVT does not play well to zerg's race advantages- insted it playes only to defilers. Zerg can produce fast, produce hard, and normally losing an army or two should be no huge loss. What im trying to say is- if your production rate is higher, and your economy is on par or above par with terrans zerg should win. Through wave after wave of your units against his, you begin to chip the ball away. Yes T units are more cost effective, but in the longrun (when you can secure more minerals) you can min more minerals than T and eventually wear him down/ starve him. This is a radical change of thought from standard zerg play, in standard ZVT if your lurks died in a battle- it was pretty much gg. Unless you had defilers out- with a lot of lings. Even then- you will still be behind, lurkers take ALOT of gass which coincidentaly so do Defilers. You play so your army cannot recover.
Lastly: ZvP play- zerg throws wave after wave of low tier units against P. Does zerg break P's army in the first engadgement? NO, but what about the second third or even fifth wave? ZVP mentality needs to be adapted to ZVT. No more pussy defiler rush- no more defensive play for all of the midgame till defilers- I think that zerg players should play toe to toe with terran, use superior produciton and mobility to overwhelm. Zerg perform well when producing low tier units- lots of low tier units. These low tier units exemplify zerg mentality, and IMO should have another look into thier useability.
All in all, what im trying to say is this: LUKERS/ULTRA/QUEEN/DEFILERS SHOULD COMPLIMENT ZERG ARMY'S, NOT BECOME THE FOCUS.
We should try and realize that these units, are expensive and specialized- all work far better surrounded with low tier units than alone.
The Second thing that should come to Z's attention is simply the fact that IMO *i cannot stress this enough* zerg is not taking the fight to T the way zerg plays P. Zerg tries to hide behind teck units, defilers- or lurkers- and muta. Muta are a great example, all you are doing is buying time- muta suck against fighting terran head on. They do not give map control, they give the apperance that zerg has map control. They are horrid. Irradidate kills them, marines kill them- they are expensive and IMO are easily countered by terran- when doing a 3 hatch muta build (of course 2 hatch muta is a differn't story- however that is a differn't strat and does not have any say in this topic)
Ok that's retarded--Z fights T differently because stimmed rines have insane DPS for their cost compared to any zerg unit when they are packed together, and even more so when there are firebats to kill units that get close... Ever notice that all your lings just pop and explode in 1-2 seconds when rines stim?
On the other hand, for their cost, zeals have higher health but lower DPS than 4 zerglings, and they are melee which means they don't get the critical mass bonus. Dragoons suck against zerglings and hydras so they are out of the question.
Seriously, all T has to do is go for a 4-rax sunken break to kill you in this case, because he just has to kill you before your first queen pops (which is right at muta timing anyhow).
The Third thing that i wish zerg players should look at how the terran ball is attacked. In standard play, you are only to do so when you have a huge advantage, or swarm. There should be a way to fight them toe to toe mid-game. Zerg does well with mass hydra/ling vs protoss armies- why not try it with T?
Again it's a DPS issue. Remember that when z units die the dps of your army falls--the strength of the T army is that it can wipe out half your damage-dealers (zerglings) before it gets close enough to do damage to the T army, and hydra damage sucks vs marines (rine damage is 15 hp/s when stimmed, while hydra is much, much less than that).
On the other hand, Z has DPS advantage over toss because it can do damage to the protoss army on a relatively equal rate to the damage amount the toss army does to it because both are melee or ranged explosive.
The fourth idea that should cross everyones mind- is simply the fact that the current play in ZVT does not play well to zerg's race advantages- insted it playes only to defilers. Zerg can produce fast, produce hard, and normally losing an army or two should be no huge loss. What im trying to say is- if your production rate is higher, and your economy is on par or above par with terrans zerg should win. Through wave after wave of your units against his, you begin to chip the ball away. Yes T units are more cost effective, but in the longrun (when you can secure more minerals) you can min more minerals than T and eventually wear him down/ starve him. This is a radical change of thought from standard zerg play, in standard ZVT if your lurks died in a battle- it was pretty much gg. Unless you had defilers out- with a lot of lings. Even then- you will still be behind, lurkers take ALOT of gass which coincidentaly so do Defilers. You play so your army cannot recover.
This a retarded line of reasoning. Look at the situation above--3-4 rax t vs 4 hatch z with lots of drones. T mineral-only units (marines) are so much more effective than zerg mineral-only units, so as z you'll be limited by gas. And it is so easy for the terran to take a 3rd gas offline--1 dropship of mnm, hell, even building one bunker behind the mineral line can take it down, maybe splitting 10 marines 2 medic to charge the expo, etc. Hence your'e on 2gas vs 2gas vs a terran who is constantly achieving an advantageous kill ratio against you and who irradiates your queens at the same rate that they generate ensnares.
Because you don't go muta, the T can make an extra barracks for every two turrets he saves--that's about 2 extra raxes, so now you're looking at about 5-7 barracks in the mid-game, plus vessel tech, which is just fucking nightmarish if you're a z without defiler.
2gas means 576 gas every minute, and about 1200 minerals a minute. For T, that's 2 medics, 2 vessels, 100 gas of some tech research, and about 24 marines per minute. Assuming you've matched the T's scv count, that means your army will be ridiculously ling-heavy (you'll need to make 48 zerglings per minute to use up your mins) which means that it is larva-heavy.
To make that many lings, plus queens, plus hydras, you'd need about 20-30 larva per minute, which means you'll need 5-8 hatches. Building up those hatcheries, believe me, would expose you to a huuuuuuge timing window if you're trying to do it off of two bases.
Lastly: ZvP play- zerg throws wave after wave of low tier units against P. Does zerg break P's army in the first engadgement? NO, but what about the second third or even fifth wave? ZVP mentality needs to be adapted to ZVT. No more pussy defiler rush- no more defensive play for all of the midgame till defilers- I think that zerg players should play toe to toe with terran, use superior produciton and mobility to overwhelm. Zerg perform well when producing low tier units- lots of low tier units. These low tier units exemplify zerg mentality, and IMO should have another look into thier useability.
All in all, what im trying to say is this: LUKERS/ULTRA/QUEEN/DEFILERS SHOULD COMPLIMENT ZERG ARMY'S, NOT BECOME THE FOCUS.
We should try and realize that these units, are expensive and specialized- all work far better surrounded with low tier units than alone.
Zerg perform well when they win. It's not about being "manly" somehow, it's about working with the timings the game gives you. Put simply, off 4 hatches and two bases you can't make enough shit to actually counter a FE 4-rax terran rush, or 3-rax + tank, or anything that hits before your first ensnare comes out. Hence why muta is needed to keep terran in base and w/e.
But anyhow, good thoughts, this strat would work against mech but not against bio. def not.
interesting read man. i tend to agree with you on some of these points, but im too lazy to write a good response b/c TLattack is about to start and i haven't been playing sc much at all recently.
Interestingly enough, I have the opposite opinion of most other people- I think that it would be really good against m/m, and really bad against mech. Ensnare changes the amount of dps the marines/firebats do by a significant amount, so the lings/hydra should be able to surround and kill the ball more easily than they would be able to otherwise. Against mech, I think that it would really depend about the various army compositions ( gol/tank vs hydra/ling)
The game would change to being all about if you can kill the first T push. One thing that the T could do is they could get a higer number of medics to counter the lower dps that their units would be doing. I think that most T's upon seeing queens might be so confused that they would lose >.>
DPS: Glad you brought this up. It's true that DPS of rines is greater than zerg, and lings tend to "pop" before they get to thier marine targets. But your thinking about standard ZVT play. I will explain to you why i think that with my strat i can overcome this.
1. Hydra: When you have a lurk ling army, the AI of the marine will shoot the lings first because the are "the greatest" threat. I change this up with my hydra because the hydra will engage the marines, causing marine AI to attack the hydra, thus allowing my higher DPS lings to get closer to thier targets.
2. Surface area: Terran Units become less and less cost effective the more fronts of battle they are presented with. I try and exploit this fact because I am using 3 highly mobile units- Zergling, Hydra, and Queens. With increased surface area- I once again am gaining an advantage.
3. Ensnare: Ensnare lowers the DPS and MOBILITY of any unit- stimmed or not. Ensnare compliments the above two points perfectly, and helps to solidify my thoughts and ideas about this pesudo style ZVT.
The DPS rate of marines also has a relationship with HP that you forgot to mention. Medics are what allow marines to go crazy DPS, T's medic count will take some time to increase to the point that you can stim marines as liberaly as you are talking about- with ensnare and aggressive play, i never intend to let this happen. Withought medics, stimmed marines are not scary- especially in ensnare, stim does nothing. Basically, by the time T has enough medics to facilitate liberal use of stim- i with have many ensnares to counter.
As far as Muta- and no muta rush: I deal with this fact simply as a matter of spending. Insted of buying 9-12 muta for 1200/1200 i can get 4 hatch, 24 drones, 16 hydra, or 48 lings. Plus a few upgrades, and considering the fact that my economy is stronger than 3hatch because i now have 4-5 hatch with drones pumping, the increased amount of rax, can be compared to the economy increase i also have gained.
Irradidate- My only question to you is- how long do you think vessles can survive if there are 1345194586 hydra swarming around? Queen are fast- and can run away quite well. It will be more of a challange to irrad a queen than a luker, ultra or defiler.
This strat is not a two base build, on the contrary it's expansive and mineral intensive. With increased produciton facilities earlier in this strat i can facilitate more drones, faster- matching anything terran can throw at me.
As for being manly- ya i think that zerg players should forgo fancy cute shit and just throw wave after wave of units. I embrace zerg mentality, and with this idea and strat, i am trying to find away for thier true mentality to shine.
On October 27 2008 05:34 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote: Interestingly enough, I have the opposite opinion of most other people- I think that it would be really good against m/m, and really bad against mech. Ensnare changes the amount of dps the marines/firebats do by a significant amount, so the lings/hydra should be able to surround and kill the ball more easily than they would be able to otherwise. Against mech, I think that it would really depend about the various army compositions ( gol/tank vs hydra/ling)
The game would change to being all about if you can kill the first T push. One thing that the T could do is they could get a higer number of medics to counter the lower dps that their units would be doing. I think that most T's upon seeing queens might be so confused that they would lose >.>
Interesting though.
Took the words basically out of my mouth- before i could say it lol
But if the T gets more medics, there are less units so less DPS. It is an inverse relationship (More marines more DPS, but no heal. While more medics less DPS however longer life), a relationship that i am trying to exploit.
Very interesting read, but I've got a question about the lategame (3rd gas and later, usually when T takes third, hive tech-ish stage)
You said it should turn into normal ZvT, however, how will defilers work with hydras? While mass lings is in this strategy, if you were to swarm on the marines (as usual to delay running away) your hydras wouldn't be able to hit, and would work against you somewhat. You also suggested getting +1 (and probably later +2/3) missile attack. Do you think this is necessary? I feel like in late game, you're gonna just end up with ultra/ling with swarms, and therefore be wasting ups. What role to hydras have in late game?
Overall, very nicely thought out. I had another comment but I forgot what it was, will post if I remember later. -__-
I tried this build in ICCUP. Luckily for me, the terran was doing the "Fantasy Build". My slow hydras minimized the vulture damage. When my opponent pushed with 12 goliaths and 12 tanks. I was able to crush his army with 3.5 groups of hydras and ensnare.
Aha, remembered what I was going to say. Do you think this would be more effective against SK Terran (1 fac tanks, 2 port vessels) or 2fac, with more tanks and less vessels. I guess in the midgame vessels would be rather useless, as lings and hydras would not be worth irradiating. A slower tank / m&m push with 6-10 tanks may be hard for this build to defend, what are your thoughts on this as well?
To those that have tried the build, how do queens work out? Do they get irradiated, and quickly killed? Can you build up a mass of queens large enough that you can constantly get off ensnares? What is the timing of the first queen, compared to the first vessel? Is it beneficial to try to ensnare vessels, so that you can scourge them more easily? This is an interesting sounding build, although I'm such a bad player that I won't have the mechanics to pull it off.
One thing that occurred to me is what if the T goes medic heavy? Doesn't that really help against hydras? I'd also like to join the bandwagon asking for reps, I hope your computer gets fixed soon.
I still think a well spread out terran will not be deterred in their first push by ensnare. This, along with actually making defilers come later, makes this build bank too much on stopping the first push with ensnare, which is unreliable IMO.
I used to try all kinds of aggressive builds (my favorites) all the time.
I tried all sorts of 2 hatch, 1 hatch techs, hive rushes, etc.
The problem I see with your build is you need the terran to come out and face you to be able to gain an advantage. If the terran decides to stay in his base and power:
- You have no harassment options, no drops, no mutas. - You don't have a spire, drops can really fuck you up, you have no scourge to keep his vessels numbers down.
Now I know there is not a build order that wins 100% of your games, but right now your idea sounds like it might work if you confuse the terran with what you are trying to achieve.
Sounds like you start powering, then you are fragile while you get the hydra upgrades + attack, then you have an army advantage where you need to score kills to set him behind and then, if you did no damage, you are behind again.
I'm mostly curious as how do you attacks nat, in what maps, etc. The worst thing I can see the terran doing (besides 3 rax sunken break ) is playing it safe in your build orders peak (when you have the hydra ling + queen army) and chill as his nat.
Wouldn't you benefit more from getting hive, since you can push him that way even if he decides to be passive?
The problem that i see with this build is the fact that you need a lot of queens to always have ensare available, especially in such an agressive MU such as ZvT when battles occur all the time.
But i dont know, i dont play Zerg or Terran, so i would really love to see a replay an check how does this build works out.
On October 27 2008 10:12 CDRdude wrote: To those that have tried the build, how do queens work out? Do they get irradiated, and quickly killed? Can you build up a mass of queens large enough that you can constantly get off ensnares? What is the timing of the first queen, compared to the first vessel? Is it beneficial to try to ensnare vessels, so that you can scourge them more easily? This is an interesting sounding build, although I'm such a bad player that I won't have the mechanics to pull it off.
One thing that occurred to me is what if the T goes medic heavy? Doesn't that really help against hydras? I'd also like to join the bandwagon asking for reps, I hope your computer gets fixed soon.
I tried it a few times today. It's actually pretty fun to do. To answer your questions, no the queens really dont get irradiated, they have too long a range and are too fast, not to mention you'll have 20+ hydras that would shred the vessel. It's really surprising how ready the supply of ensnares are, even with just 3 queens you wont be too hurting for energy unless you are just popping them off like crazy. Ensnare is only 75 energy remember. The queen usually comes out at the same time as the vessel for me, unless they are going 2fact or something. And you have lots and lots of hydras you wont need scourge really except for drops. Also, when the terran gets medic heavy it can really mean trouble toward the end of a battle.
The comparision to sauron zvp is really dead on. It will give you tons and tons of units, but it requires a ton of macro but if it gets to the point where the Terran has a huge army, it almost seems like no amount of hydra ling and ensnare will kill it.
That said it was my first time trying anything like this, I'd really like to see some reps of good players trying this. If i remember correctly, xiozi tried something like this against artosis on bluestorm taking the min only very quickly in that USA vs WORLD thread.
Hey, this is a very interesting theory and I really like the discussions going on about it! I really want to see the opinions of some high level gamers though, to see what kind of views they would have on this.
@Pokebunny - I believe coke = cocaine, meaning his Zerg on drugs literally. Basically it just means it's a crazy theorycraft/build/whatever
OOhhh, I see. I guess I knew it was some sort of reference to 'insane' but I couldn't figure out what it was, so I sort of assumed it was nonsense-ish. ;p
Just after thinking some more about it (I still haven't tried it, I'm too nooby to determine anything by playing people)-
Vs. Fantasy build
Hydra take out vults, so you get ahead, and then you can expand/tech pretty well/fast. Once again, i'm not sure how the hydra and the lings work out against the gols/tanks, and how the ratio should be. I think that it would be a lot more dependent on the scouting from the zerg.
vs. m/m
You should be okay depending on how well you can fend off the first blob (the timing push that's supposed to come before hive tech kicks in). The things that m/m can do to make your life hard: correct unit composition (marines take out hydra, firebats take out lings. Most T's only have like 3-4 firebats, but if they have like 8 firebats to wall and kill lings, it would just about nullify the advantage of the lings).
If they sit inside the base, you can tech like crazy to swarm/ultra ling.
On October 27 2008 09:11 Pokebunny wrote: Very interesting read, but I've got a question about the lategame (3rd gas and later, usually when T takes third, hive tech-ish stage)
You said it should turn into normal ZvT, however, how will defilers work with hydras? While mass lings is in this strategy, if you were to swarm on the marines (as usual to delay running away) your hydras wouldn't be able to hit, and would work against you somewhat. You also suggested getting +1 (and probably later +2/3) missile attack. Do you think this is necessary? I feel like in late game, you're gonna just end up with ultra/ling with swarms, and therefore be wasting ups. What role to hydras have in late game?
Overall, very nicely thought out. I had another comment but I forgot what it was, will post if I remember later. -__-
Ok lets get down to business- answering questions. Cannot wait until i can get some reps to you guys. I am exited by all of the interest and critique coming from you elitist TLers lol jk jk
On a serious note: Ok first question: Defilers, what do i plan to do with them once defilers come into play? Well i can answer this in a few ways.
Dark Swarm: While i do agree that hydras lose efectiveness, they are still an essential part of play. Ensnared units don't run fast. No T player is going to stay in swarm, they are going to leave it, or try and run. My hydras are more adpet at chasing fleeing units than lukers- so i keep them. Lings will easily be able to destroy anything inside of the swarm because of thier fast upgrades, and with this build; simply the amount of lings. This strat uses swarm again in a deffern't frame of referance than standard zvt. Really swarm will do one of three things:
1. Push T back to allow your lings or hydra to advance under swarm- if T is ensnared, you can then attack, however in the off chance that you have none- it simply allows you to attain and keep map control. In zerg on cocaine BO this stage in your swarm play is buying time for, plagu and the inevitable ultra.
2. Allow more of your army more freedom to move in and around the T ball, while not being obliterated. Swarm in this cocaine BO is used as a deterrent. Zerg will now switch to defensive play, waiting for Ultra- and then the final series of direct attacks to the jugular (ie main and nat) to finish T.
3. By time- remember we are trying to get plagu and ultra here. AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME ATTACKING INTO THE MAIN/NAT IS A BAD IDEA. (insert perfect rep of me losing because of this exact problem) wish i had a rep goddamit!!!!
Also because of the late or never appearing spire hydra NEED to stay plentiful into the late game and beyond. They are what is going to keep the vessel count low so your stuck with it. Also ultra hydra destroys everything t can possibly do. Ultra are the perfect wall, and hydra are the fast sexy little snipers behind the wall of blades.
Really with defilers, plagu is key for the cocaine style zerg. 80-90% of your ground force will be fast attacking units- what better to combo with than plagu? Ensnare makes sure T cannot retreat his 1hp units, and your crazy fast ROF of your lings and hydra can make short work of any late game T ball.
Next Question:
On October 27 2008 10:10 Pokebunny wrote: Aha, remembered what I was going to say. Do you think this would be more effective against SK Terran (1 fac tanks, 2 port vessels) or 2fac, with more tanks and less vessels. I guess in the midgame vessels would be rather useless, as lings and hydras would not be worth irradiating. A slower tank / m&m push with 6-10 tanks may be hard for this build to defend, what are your thoughts on this as well?
Well 2 port vessels imo gets destroyed by mass hydra, also the irrad is going to be wasted- the queen mobility and long range of spell casting can keep them well behind your hydra. If T wants to trade 1 vessel for 1 gueen- fine by me. I come out on top in that battle- simple economics.
As for tanks, while yes the do destroy hydra, lings that can get up close and personal do counter tanks. Remember tanks embody exactly what my build is trying to hard counter- mobility. Tanks are not fast, hell they don't even move. Once again, stop thinking in standard zvt, and look at tanks from another point of view. I find that mass tanks can be out pincer, flanked and surrounded. Once again- i will admit, running head on with a lot of sige tanks is always going to be a bad idea- but surrounding them? not so much.
If the T is pushing slower, and you scout that he is just massing- do the opposite, drone hard, expo hard, teck, and then go nuts with your through the roof economy.
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On October 27 2008 10:12 CDRdude wrote: To those that have tried the build, how do queens work out? Do they get irradiated, and quickly killed? Can you build up a mass of queens large enough that you can constantly get off ensnares? What is the timing of the first queen, compared to the first vessel? Is it beneficial to try to ensnare vessels, so that you can scourge them more easily? This is an interesting sounding build, although I'm such a bad player that I won't have the mechanics to pull it off.
One thing that occurred to me is what if the T goes medic heavy? Doesn't that really help against hydras? I'd also like to join the bandwagon asking for reps, I hope your computer gets fixed soon.
Ok well queens work well, you do get them out quick- about the same time (sometimes sooner) than your typical 3 hatch muta timing. As for irrad, i realize that most zergs are not used to babysitting their casters, or bigger units. This is because it was pointless, vessels fly and are mobile while defilers, ultra, lurks are quite the contrary. Now queens on the other hand fly (fast) and their casting range is really long. Don't forget you could, parasite one vessel to find the cloud, and your also going to have a lot of hydra squirming around on the ground. Hydra make short work of vessels, and even shorter work of ensnared vessels.
As for the replays: IM SO SO SORRY I'm waiting and hoping that my computer comes back soon, all files intact so i can share with you my ideas.
For medics- remember an inverse relationship. More marines=higher DPS, shorter life. More medics=lower DPS longer life. I am trying to take advantage of this inverse relationship. also many medics are going to cost more gas, gas needed to make tanks and vessles.
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On October 27 2008 10:14 nevake wrote: I still think a well spread out terran will not be deterred in their first push by ensnare. This, along with actually making defilers come later, makes this build bank too much on stopping the first push with ensnare, which is unreliable IMO.
A spread out T? This is falling straight into zerg play. A spread out ball, in chunks diminishes terran efficiency and is far easier to kill- than the ball. Your giving the larger zerg army more surface area, not a good idea. I don't understand how spreading out your units will help? Either way, ensnare will be cast on the largest bunch, so even more of a detriment.
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On October 27 2008 10:19 IntoTheWow wrote: I used to try all kinds of aggressive builds (my favorites) all the time.
I tried all sorts of 2 hatch, 1 hatch techs, hive rushes, etc.
The problem I see with your build is you need the terran to come out and face you to be able to gain an advantage. If the terran decides to stay in his base and power:
- You have no harassment options, no drops, no mutas. - You don't have a spire, drops can really fuck you up, you have no scourge to keep his vessels numbers down.
Now I know there is not a build order that wins 100% of your games, but right now your idea sounds like it might work if you confuse the terran with what you are trying to achieve.
Sounds like you start powering, then you are fragile while you get the hydra upgrades + attack, then you have an army advantage where you need to score kills to set him behind and then, if you did no damage, you are behind again.
I'm mostly curious as how do you attacks nat, in what maps, etc. The worst thing I can see the terran doing (besides 3 rax sunken break ) is playing it safe in your build orders peak (when you have the hydra ling + queen army) and chill as his nat.
Wouldn't you benefit more from getting hive, since you can push him that way even if he decides to be passive?
Ok well to begin to answer your question ill just go down the list: 1. Why does zerg need to harass? Why is this not a problem? I can build more drones, expand more, and get a better econ. Your not harassing zerg either. In every MU vs Z the other player tries to stop z. The longer you wait, the stronger this build becomes. I will always expand, mass hatch and power drone.
2. Drops? So what. I have many units, more units means that i can have some in and around everywhere- hydra do well to kill drop ships. Spread out your overlords, and have zerglings here and there throughout the map. Not a big deal. Vessle numbers? ahh im building a plethora of hydra- how is that not going to keep his count low? Also ensnared vessles=dead.
3. start powering then get hydra upgrades? Hydra upgrades start happening about the time lair is 50% complete in standard ZVT, both players are still early game at this point. it's no differn't from standard 3 hatch muta.
4. Cocain zerg doesn't try and delay hive- the goal is still to get hive and defiler play into the game at a fast pace, if T sits in his base- im not going to attack him. every minute he spends in his base, is another min of me getting more hatch, more expos and more teck. T can sit and turtle all day. Not going to effect me.
You see im not going to waste money on harassment, so i don't lose anything from not doing damage on his base. I don't need to harass. that is the terrans job. To try and slow me down, not the other way around. Passive is not the way to play- ever. You need map control, and if T sits in his base and you decide to attack- your an idiot. With this Bo and army composition, you will get rolled- until you get ultra, so im content to just wait him out.
Next:
On October 27 2008 10:21 CrimsonLotus wrote: The problem that i see with this build is the fact that you need a lot of queens to always have ensare available, especially in such an agressive MU such as ZvT when battles occur all the time.
But i dont know, i dont play Zerg or Terran, so i would really love to see a replay an check how does this build works out.
Queens cost 100/100 (basically a mutalisk). I do not worry about ensnare because: 1. Fully upgraded queens have 250 mana- basically 2 ensnares and then a short 50 mana wait till 3 ensnares.
2. They are cheep
So i think i can make enough for my needs.
Next:
On October 27 2008 11:30 Pokebunny wrote: Err, last question. Your zerg on coke? Is there some reason this is related to coke in any way, or some analogy, or.... It doesn't make sense to me.
I have no idea, i thought about it- and came up with this correlation to try and make you happy.
"Cocain makes you feel exited, jumpy, and your brain goes crazy fast." that is what i like my zerg army to feel and look like when i play this build.
I'm going to avoid reading all of the comments because they might make me change my mind when I say that I am really excited that people can still come up with creative build orders
1) Assuming you crush the T's late midgame push with 3-4 tanks 2ish control groups of mnm plus vessel. Expand a few more times? Get ovie speed+drops? I've tried the build a few times and a couple times i've won the first huge battle, then just becasue of lack of experience with the build, not known what to do next.
2) When do you normally take your 3rd, then 4th expo
I think an easy example of what I"m saying is like on bluestorm. Terran is pushing through the middle with tanks, and you have no way of flanking him because he's spread out, and you can't ensnare his entire force (that's IF ensnare is out with energy by 9-10 minutes that it takes him to get to your base), so there's no way you're going to be able to attack him with any results.
DPS: Glad you brought this up. It's true that DPS of rines is greater than zerg, and lings tend to "pop" before they get to thier marine targets. But your thinking about standard ZVT play. I will explain to you why i think that with my strat i can overcome this.
1. Hydra: When you have a lurk ling army, the AI of the marine will shoot the lings first because the are "the greatest" threat. I change this up with my hydra because the hydra will engage the marines, causing marine AI to attack the hydra, thus allowing my higher DPS lings to get closer to thier targets.
Even so the ball of rines would still do more net DPS than your hydra/ling combo.
2. Surface area: Terran Units become less and less cost effective the more fronts of battle they are presented with. I try and exploit this fact because I am using 3 highly mobile units- Zergling, Hydra, and Queens. With increased surface area- I once again am gaining an advantage.
Again this depends on you getting ensnare out fast. What if T hits you before ensnare? Or worse yet, starts a contain at your choke with bunkers and tanks before your queen is out? (Ensnare doesn't work on buildings)
3. Ensnare: Ensnare lowers the DPS and MOBILITY of any unit- stimmed or not. Ensnare compliments the above two points perfectly, and helps to solidify my thoughts and ideas about this pesudo style ZVT.
Again, what if he hits your pre-ensnare timing window, it will be very easy to do so.
The DPS rate of marines also has a relationship with HP that you forgot to mention. Medics are what allow marines to go crazy DPS, T's medic count will take some time to increase to the point that you can stim marines as liberaly as you are talking about- with ensnare and aggressive play, i never intend to let this happen. Withought medics, stimmed marines are not scary- especially in ensnare, stim does nothing. Basically, by the time T has enough medics to facilitate liberal use of stim- i with have many ensnares to counter.
As far as Muta- and no muta rush: I deal with this fact simply as a matter of spending. Insted of buying 9-12 muta for 1200/1200 i can get 4 hatch, 24 drones, 16 hydra, or 48 lings. Plus a few upgrades, and considering the fact that my economy is stronger than 3hatch because i now have 4-5 hatch with drones pumping, the increased amount of rax, can be compared to the economy increase i also have gained.
Irradidate- My only question to you is- how long do you think vessles can survive if there are 1345194586 hydra swarming around? Queen are fast- and can run away quite well. It will be more of a challange to irrad a queen than a luker, ultra or defiler.
This strat is not a two base build, on the contrary it's expansive and mineral intensive. With increased produciton facilities earlier in this strat i can facilitate more drones, faster- matching anything terran can throw at me.
As for being manly- ya i think that zerg players should forgo fancy cute shit and just throw wave after wave of units. I embrace zerg mentality, and with this idea and strat, i am trying to find away for thier true mentality to shine.
IT's hard to do that off of 2 base, it would take so long for your eco to get up and running that the T would simply steamroll you. You need to save some replays with a T with decent macro/mechanics because I seriously doubt the viability of this build.
On October 27 2008 01:02 Misrah wrote: As for ensnare, and queens- One Queen costs 100/100 You can easily make 2 or 3 right off the bat, and once ensnare is complete get queen energy. Fully charged with mana the queen can fire 2 consecutive ensnares, and only has to wait a short 50 mana before being able to fire 3.
Isn't it even slightly better than this? Been a while since I played, but thought a fully charged queen could do the following:
With queen energy upgrade: 3 ensnares, wait 50 mana for 4th. Without queen energy: 2 ensnares, wait 25 mana for 3rd.
I would really welcome a conservative ZvT alternative to 3 hatch muta play - i.e., something different to do without beeing cheese.
Still I cannot see a hydraling army (including ensnare) take out a well-sized midgame T ball that has a good number of tanks (don't forget the ball will be larger than usual as T does not need turrets). At least, if the tanks are sieged. On the other hand, if the ball is on the move however, my noobness thinks you'd have good chances taking it out.
I am really excited to try this build (and probably be crushed abysmally the first 20 times).
A question you have IMO not yet answered: Why upgrade missile attack first in your BO?
P.S.: A (perhaps stupid) idea for late game: In my experience from fastest map games (*blush*) in an earlier life, I found that guardians complement hydras quite well, especially in cracking heavy defenses.
Now, typcially, guardians are not really used in TvZ, due to irradiate; but your heavy hydralisk presence might make their use safer. Perhaps you can experiment with that instead of using defiler/ultra for late game.
I am just thinking - compared to classic play, T should problably make more tanks and less vessels vs. your build. In that case, guardians may well be viable. If the T instead makes a large amount of vessels, you'd probably fare better by mixing in ultras.
On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote: A few questions
What to do with mass tanks? Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
Its just a suggested strat, There is nothing stopping you, or others *cough* chill *cough*, from trying his strat and posting the replays in this thread. If yyou think it sucks, post replays of yourself getting owned while trying to do it. If a bunch of people try it and post replays, it should give a better indication as to whether it is viable or not.
On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote: A few questions
What to do with mass tanks? Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
Its just a suggested strat, There is nothing stopping you, or others *cough* chill *cough*, from trying his strat and posting the replays in this thread. If yyou think it sucks, post replays of yourself getting owned while trying to do it. If a bunch of people try it and post replays, it should give a better indication as to whether it is viable or not.
On October 27 2008 01:02 Misrah wrote: As for ensnare, and queens- One Queen costs 100/100 You can easily make 2 or 3 right off the bat, and once ensnare is complete get queen energy. Fully charged with mana the queen can fire 2 consecutive ensnares, and only has to wait a short 50 mana before being able to fire 3.
Isn't it even slightly better than this? Been a while since I played, but thought a fully charged queen could do the following:
With queen energy upgrade: 3 ensnares, wait 50 mana for 4th. Without queen energy: 2 ensnares, wait 25 mana for 3rd.
(though I could be remembering this wrong)
Yes you are right- I realize now that i wrote my queen mana statistics entirely wrong. Fully upgraded queens get 3 ensnare, and then a 50mana wait for 4th. Thanks for correcting me.
On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote: A few questions
What to do with mass tanks? Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
Ok for mass tanks- remember that tanks are very very immobile. Also it's going to take terran some time to mass up critical mass of tanks. If T truly allows me run rampant all over the map during his tank mass- i can just swarm him to death. On the off chance that T does push out with many tanks, tanks fall right into my idea of zerg ground play. Tanks don't move- my army is extremely mobile. I do agree that running head on into a line of tanks will rape your army- tanks become far less effective the more fronts of battle they are faced with. Flanking and pincering/surrounds will become far easier. Also you can always just switch to muta if you scout mass tank. No big deal IMO.
I skip muta harrass because i think that terran should be the ones trying to slow zerg down, and harassing. Because i don't waste any money on harassment- i don't lose anything by not harassing. Instead i can build more drones, hatcheries, or teck.
Also i am sorry about the lack of replays- i promise that i will mass rep once my computer comes back. You are more than welcome to try and play this build and post your replays yourself to try and facilitate the need while i am stuck waiting.
On October 27 2008 21:45 Metaspace wrote: Warning: Theorycrafting ahead
P.S.: A (perhaps stupid) idea for late game: In my experience from fastest map games (*blush*) in an earlier life, I found that guardians complement hydras quite well, especially in cracking heavy defenses.
Now, typcially, guardians are not really used in TvZ, due to irradiate; but your heavy hydralisk presence might make their use safer. Perhaps you can experiment with that instead of using defiler/ultra for late game.
I am just thinking - compared to classic play, T should problably make more tanks and less vessels vs. your build. In that case, guardians may well be viable. If the T instead makes a large amount of vessels, you'd probably fare better by mixing in ultras.
Hmm this indeed is a good idea I'm not going to lie. It seems like a powerful combination. I would be exited to see you try this idea- and i certainly will try once my computer comes back. However in my opinion i see a few problems with this build. You are going to need muta- thus you cannot afford the time or money to get extra hatcheries. Because you are getting muta (like in a 3 hatch game) your economy will not be as strong, and your production will be lacking. After your muta harrass you will probably be getting hydra- you will need both hydra upgrades (gas) and you would probably have to start upgrading +1 missile and carapace earlier in the game, because if you don't- after you muta harrass their +1 rines are going to shred your muta hydra with +0
Basically mid game- you are going to try and mass muta, and hydra. Muta is a huge gas investment- not to mention that 4 hydra is 100 gas- so even more. IMO i don't think that you would have the production or the gas to facilitate this BO.
UNLESS perhaps if you go with my strat- and get queens earlier and get a really really late spire, and then teck to hive and get guardians, it could work in that respect. Basically what i am seeing here is after the mid game (at least i hope this is what you were thinking) ie. after your queen/ling/hydra mass is sufficient you start tecking to hive and then get a spire and then Greater spire? This could work- the only problem is that this is very very gas intensive. But at this stage in the game- you should have 3 gas (perhaps 4?) I'm just wondering if that is enough to produce muta 100/100, get guardians 50/150 and still afford hydra in sufficient numbers to protect your guardians. I think that queens would still be a must here- to handle those pesky vessels, which will inevitably be going for your guardians. Hmm now that you say it i hope kind of what i have above, this could work well. if you had the gas. Try it out i defiantly think that this build needs to be looked at. great idea!
On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote: A few questions
What to do with mass tanks? Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
Its just a suggested strat, There is nothing stopping you, or others *cough* chill *cough*, from trying his strat and posting the replays in this thread. If yyou think it sucks, post replays of yourself getting owned while trying to do it. If a bunch of people try it and post replays, it should give a better indication as to whether it is viable or not.
Yeah, let's all do the OP's dirty work.
Once again i apologize and hope that you all can forgive me one day.
On October 27 2008 21:34 Metaspace wrote: Interesting thoughts.
I would really welcome a conservative ZvT alternative to 3 hatch muta play - i.e., something different to do without beeing cheese.
Still I cannot see a hydraling army (including ensnare) take out a well-sized midgame T ball that has a good number of tanks (don't forget the ball will be larger than usual as T does not need turrets). At least, if the tanks are sieged. On the other hand, if the ball is on the move however, my noobness thinks you'd have good chances taking it out.
I am really excited to try this build (and probably be crushed abysmally the first 20 times).
A question you have IMO not yet answered: Why upgrade missile attack first in your BO?
Sorry metaspace, forgot to answer this question.
Ok well remember- this build is not meant to engage head on with the ball. I have stated that flanking, surrounding and proper unit placement is the key to this build. It is very critical that you can get your army to have the most surface area of attack against the terran. Ensnare just allows you to obtain proper unit placement much easier.
With your mobility and ensnare, you can make surgical strikes on the terran ball, you can retreat- attack and move in a way the terran ball cannot. Ensnare amplifies this strategic advantage, and i hope that with this increased mobility- i can slowly tear chunks from the ball, instead of trying to squish it straight on.
From the experience i have had using this build, the way i find best to attack the terran ball is the following-
Making surgical strikes into the ball: Ensnare his units rush in, kill tanks- or a small group of marines- and move away. Take little bites.
Remember that this strategic idea is totally different from STANDARD ZVT. Don't try and swallow the ball in one bite- take smaller bites. Your unit production and unit build rate is far greater than terrans. Your units build faster- and can reach the battlefield much quicker than terran. Don't forget this.
Yes, the guradian idea was supposed to be a late-game follow up to your build. The basic rationale here is that guardians are not more expensive or require more tech than ultra. They would replace ultra + defiler/darkswarm.
On the downside, they do not benefit from ground army upgrades, and they are less mobile. And you'd get no plague.
On October 27 2008 15:06 lgdDante wrote: 2 questions for you misrah
1) Assuming you crush the T's late midgame push with 3-4 tanks 2ish control groups of mnm plus vessel. Expand a few more times? Get ovie speed+drops? I've tried the build a few times and a couple times i've won the first huge battle, then just becasue of lack of experience with the build, not known what to do next.
2) When do you normally take your 3rd, then 4th expo
Well I cannot explain everything, because i don't know exactly what was going on in your game. However what i tend to do after destroying the first t ball- is mass expo. Always try and have an expo going somewhere. Also once you win a battle power drone (for a short while), so you can get more of an advantage economically before switching back to army production. Teck is always good as well. Just remember to never attack the T main until you get ultra and swarm. doing so with this type of unit composition could be ugly- unless you really are just that far ahead lol. basically play safe sit back and relax. Unless terran does something amazing to pull himself back into the game- you win.
Tanking expos is all about you, your game sense and how the game is going. I really can't give you advice on this. Preferably try and get your 3rd (quickly followed by 4th) expo at about the same time in 3 hatch muta.
DPS: Glad you brought this up. It's true that DPS of rines is greater than zerg, and lings tend to "pop" before they get to thier marine targets. But your thinking about standard ZVT play. I will explain to you why i think that with my strat i can overcome this.
1. Hydra: When you have a lurk ling army, the AI of the marine will shoot the lings first because the are "the greatest" threat. I change this up with my hydra because the hydra will engage the marines, causing marine AI to attack the hydra, thus allowing my higher DPS lings to get closer to thier targets.
Even so the ball of rines would still do more net DPS than your hydra/ling combo.
2. Surface area: Terran Units become less and less cost effective the more fronts of battle they are presented with. I try and exploit this fact because I am using 3 highly mobile units- Zergling, Hydra, and Queens. With increased surface area- I once again am gaining an advantage.
Again this depends on you getting ensnare out fast. What if T hits you before ensnare? Or worse yet, starts a contain at your choke with bunkers and tanks before your queen is out? (Ensnare doesn't work on buildings)
3. Ensnare: Ensnare lowers the DPS and MOBILITY of any unit- stimmed or not. Ensnare compliments the above two points perfectly, and helps to solidify my thoughts and ideas about this pesudo style ZVT.
Again, what if he hits your pre-ensnare timing window, it will be very easy to do so.
The DPS rate of marines also has a relationship with HP that you forgot to mention. Medics are what allow marines to go crazy DPS, T's medic count will take some time to increase to the point that you can stim marines as liberaly as you are talking about- with ensnare and aggressive play, i never intend to let this happen. Withought medics, stimmed marines are not scary- especially in ensnare, stim does nothing. Basically, by the time T has enough medics to facilitate liberal use of stim- i with have many ensnares to counter.
As far as Muta- and no muta rush: I deal with this fact simply as a matter of spending. Insted of buying 9-12 muta for 1200/1200 i can get 4 hatch, 24 drones, 16 hydra, or 48 lings. Plus a few upgrades, and considering the fact that my economy is stronger than 3hatch because i now have 4-5 hatch with drones pumping, the increased amount of rax, can be compared to the economy increase i also have gained.
Irradidate- My only question to you is- how long do you think vessles can survive if there are 1345194586 hydra swarming around? Queen are fast- and can run away quite well. It will be more of a challange to irrad a queen than a luker, ultra or defiler.
This strat is not a two base build, on the contrary it's expansive and mineral intensive. With increased produciton facilities earlier in this strat i can facilitate more drones, faster- matching anything terran can throw at me.
As for being manly- ya i think that zerg players should forgo fancy cute shit and just throw wave after wave of units. I embrace zerg mentality, and with this idea and strat, i am trying to find away for thier true mentality to shine.
IT's hard to do that off of 2 base, it would take so long for your eco to get up and running that the T would simply steamroll you. You need to save some replays with a T with decent macro/mechanics because I seriously doubt the viability of this build.
I think that you are over estimating the DPS of ensnared marines. If you stim them (in ensnare) their DPS is the same as normal fire. Not a big deal.
Ensnare comes out fast- we are talking at about the same time as 3 hatch muta. Anytime before that, terran cannot have enough medics to support heavy use of stim. Don't forget that I have VERY early upgrades as well. Either way- if T sends a small excursion force to my base, i can counter with upgraded hydra and ling. There is no way you would be able to box me in my nat. Remember i have more hatcheries and also have an army at this point as well. Unlike standard ZVT im not going to sit behind sunkens and wait for you to box me in.
The pre-ensnare timing window? It is either so small- or so negligible that it doesn't matter. We are talking early game here. T will not have the amount of medics that his marines need to kill me. I have FAST UPGRADES- to help with this problem.
As for your 2 base argument- I stay at two base the same time- if not a shorter amount of time than a standard zerg does in standard zvt. I'm not going to get out macroed. My hatches can produce drones faster that 2CC's. How is terran going to steamroll me? Also I once again apologize about the lack of replays- i will get the up as soon as i can.
On October 28 2008 00:54 Misrah wrote: Ok hope that helped to answer your question.
One question still remains: why do you get missile upgrade first?
Ok sorry i missed this the first time- but basically this build is still a work in progress. At this time my two logical reasonings behind getting +1 missile first are the following:
1. Hydra will be engaging the marines before the lings- so i would like them to have the best chance to inflict damage.
2. This +1 will also give hydra a far better chance of sniping fast tanks.
As of now that is my reasoning, if you think there is a better way to upgrade with a more logical train of thought please let me know.
On October 28 2008 01:34 Misrah wrote: At this time my two logical reasonings behind getting +1 missile first are the following:
1. Hydra will be engaging the marines before the lings- so i would like them to have the best chance to inflict damage.
2. This +1 will also give hydra a far better chance of sniping fast tanks.
As of now that is my reasoning, if you think there is a better way to upgrade with a more logical train of thought please let me know.
ad 1.: You said somewhere that marine AI attacks hydras first (anyone know this for sure?), which makes them the damage soakers, while lings dish out hits (compare to ultra/ling). If that is indeed so, it would be preferable to upgrade carapace, allowing the hydras to soak more; as a bonus, lings will also profit from that.
ad 2.: This is an interesting point, but I wonder if upgrading carapace first will not offset this advantage for the reasons given in 1.
In any case, considering your build focuses on large amounts of units, I think if in any way possible, early double, later even triple evo would strongly benefit this build.
On October 28 2008 01:54 sh02hp0869 wrote: Intresting idea Im a noob so I probleby never would do this build myself but I do have 3 Q.
1 How much are the marines attacking slowed?
2 Is Medics healing ability also slowed?
3 Does ensnare also affsct tanks.
Im also a noob, but i think:
1-It nullifies the effect of stim, stimmed marines fire at a normal rate.
2-No, as far as i know.
3-Yes.
I remember reading an old thread with statistics about the effect of ensare on diferent units, and i think it said that i doesnt slow tanks a lot, but im not sure.
Ensnare cuts movement speed by half, and lasts for 40seconds. Effects a 4x4 matrix and reduces ROF by 20%?? also i also hear that ensnare ROF effects all units differently so at this point i cannot give you hard data. However it is known that in ensnare a stimmed marine fires at a normal ROF (if the marine is not in ensnare and doesn't use stim) so basically in ensnare you need to stim very liberally just to stay even.
On October 28 2008 02:09 CrimsonLotus wrote: I remember reading an old thread with statistics about the effect of ensare on diferent units, and i think it said that i doesnt slow tanks a lot, but im not sure.
Edit: According to theory, tank fire is NOT slowed by Ensnare, as a tank really consist of 2 units, one being the tracks, the other the cannon. Ensnare only affects the tracks. I think I read that in the Ensnare experiment analysis linked to the thread given above.
First of all i want to congratulate you on your writing skills, it was a really entertaining, and maybe even useful read. And i'm glad that some players who arent top tier actually try to use their mind, and not waiting some builds from Korea (or from WCG qualified players) to learn them exactly. Most of the Iccup players do this as far as i see, and sadly some of them are sucsesful with them, without having too much strategic sense.
Well first i smiled when i saw the Q word, but damn, i started to think. Terrans aren't used to Queens so when they saw 1 they wouldn't start spreading their troops or anything like that. (They may think you're a perv, sick bastard who tries to broodling tanks, get sunkens and go for ultras straight (it actually happened to me once, when i played terran)). So you may have an easy cast right on the ball. And hydras arent that bad when you focus on upgrades early on... Really, try it, even without queens sometimes mass hydra works, and it s safe against Fantasy build (apparently 90% of terrans on Iccup thinks they can use it, it's so fun to crush a messed up fantasy-build, altough even more annoying when you loose to one). So as i kept reading and thinking I ended up believing this build might even work. I have to watch your reps tough, and try it myself. The one thing i'm very worried about it's the APM needed for this build. if you got decent macro using 1 or 2 more hatches early on shouldnt be too much trouble, altough using correctly queen and defiler in the same time when you got 4-5 control group of units sounds superhyperultramega hard. Altough i might be wrong, i never tried. (And since it's so wierd it could lead to some insange advantages. Imagine if you hide your den at your forth, the T does not scan it, only your nat and your main, and sees your queen's nest, immediatly goes for wraiths, thinking that u hidden your spire, than he faces some hydras- ok, that's stupid, i wont eve happen)
About your ZvP build, that just might be the thing i was searching for. My ZvP is about getting the toss off guard with massling or masshydra few ling or mass muta into mass hydra. Or outexpanding and curshing with ultras. But is felt that it's not what i'm designed for, i will defineatly try this, or at least a variation of it, which suits me better. This build should be very good on Bluestorm, i sucked really badly on it vs P, my only valid build was the 3 hatch ling.
On October 26 2008 22:29 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i just gotta say - when you are playing Zerg vs Terran, you abbreviate it ZvT (Zerg.. versus... Terran), not TvZ
Thanks, i wanted to say the same, i first believed it's gonna be a modifeid fantasy-build or sg like that what you want to share with us.
So great job, really, upload replays, you got a supporter. p.s.: sry for my spelling or grammar, english is my 3th language, and i had a taugh weekend so some of my sentences may not have sense at all.
On October 28 2008 02:57 Geo.Rion wrote: First of all i want to congratulate you on your writing skills, it was a really entertaining, and maybe even useful read. And i'm glad that some players who arent top tier actually try to use their mind, and not waiting some builds from Korea (or from WCG qualified players) to learn them exactly. Most of the Iccup players do this as far as i see, and sadly some of them are sucsesful with them, without having too much strategic sense.
Well first i smiled when i saw the Q word, but damn, i started to think. Terrans aren't used to Queens so when they saw 1 they wouldn't start spreading their troops or anything like that. (They may think you're a perv, sick bastard who tries to broodling tanks, get sunkens and go for ultras straight (it actually happened to me once, when i played terran)). So you may have an easy cast right on the ball. And hydras arent that bad when you focus on upgrades early on... Really, try it, even without queens sometimes mass hydra works, and it s safe against Fantasy build (apparently 90% of terrans on Iccup thinks they can use it, it's so fun to crush a messed up fantasy-build, altough even more annoying when you loose to one). So as i kept reading and thinking I ended up believing this build might even work. I have to watch your reps tough, and try it myself. The one thing i'm very worried about it's the APM needed for this build. if you got decent macro using 1 or 2 more hatches early on shouldnt be too much trouble, altough using correctly queen and defiler in the same time when you got 4-5 control group of units sounds superhyperultramega hard. Altough i might be wrong, i never tried. (And since it's so wierd it could lead to some insange advantages. Imagine if you hide your den at your forth, the T does not scan it, only your nat and your main, and sees your queen's nest, immediatly goes for wraiths, thinking that u hidden your spire, than he faces some hydras- ok, that's stupid, i wont eve happen)
About your ZvP build, that just might be the thing i was searching for. My ZvP is about getting the toss off guard with massling or masshydra few ling or mass muta into mass hydra. Or outexpanding and curshing with ultras. But is felt that it's not what i'm designed for, i will defineatly try this, or at least a variation of it, which suits me better. This build should be very good on Bluestorm, i sucked really badly on it vs P, my only valid build was the 3 hatch ling.
On October 26 2008 22:29 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i just gotta say - when you are playing Zerg vs Terran, you abbreviate it ZvT (Zerg.. versus... Terran), not TvZ
Thanks, i wanted to say the same, i first believed it's gonna be a modifeid fantasy-build or sg like that what you want to share with us.
So great job, really, upload replays, you got a supporter. p.s.: sry for my spelling or grammar, english is my 3th language, and i had a taugh weekend so some of my sentences may not have sense at all.
I will be uploading as soon as my computer comes back, along with mass gaming this build on icup and pubbies. Thanks for the support
On October 27 2008 03:23 Chill wrote: Interesting. When I first read a couple paragraphs I had written it off, but the logic behind it seems solid. I'm not sure about execution, but I'm willing to try it a few times.
If Chill just said this, I will be willing to play around with it as well. The only thoughts I have right now are the crazy micro you will need, especially working with the queens. Also the terran pushes seen very powerful when you do this build. Early/midgame you will basically be camping and hoping that he doesn't kill you while you get your macro up and going.
I used almost the exact idea for my 3 hat muta fake +1carpacelurker/ling push.
I go 4 hat lurker/ling/ensare. Take third hive + 2 more queens + broodling, only lurker production. The timming of the 2 broodlings vs the standard mnm /tank /sci midgame push is exact.
I have a few replays but the terrans are only around C s the game quality isn't that great.
@ attackZerg, hey anything you have that would help with The "Cocaine zerg style" is always appreciated. Your idea sounds good, if you want please post what you have so everyone can look at your strat and compare and contrast.
I haven't read all 4 pages because I don't have the time right now, but I have a couple things to say.
I've been toying with the idea of non-standard ZvT builds myself, and I think we're both on the same track: less hide-and-whore, more map control/aggression early game.
The thing is, the 3hatch muta build is designed to whore drones already, which you're claiming you can do better by stopping his first "force sunks" push with lings. The thing is, every 2 lings you make could have been a drone. If you build 3 sunks, you've lost 3 drones, and kept yourself safe. If you stop that first push with lings, you're going to need to use quite a bit of larva (like say 9 or 10 for 18/20 lings), so you'll actually have less drones, and in exchange you'll get to kill his first push (making his defenses more vulnerable as you get aggressive in midgame), and also map control.
Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that using all that larva for lings to take out his first push isn't enough IMO, unless you also take advantage of your map control. Make that 4th hatch at a third base, preferably a nat so you can have a more secure 4th whenever you want it.
regarding a blog I wrote about a non-standard ZvT idea I had (though it's since been modified), see this blog post of mine.
i don't think it will work for many people who do not have exceptional control with their army. Dodging ensnare is super easy because of the time it takes for ensnare to travel from the queen to its target location.
FE terran into 2 fact tanks will be very difficult to beat with this strat if the terran is not tactically inept. Situations to flank aren't just created by the zerg player, they're presented by the T player.
If terran goes medic heavy and uses medic walls, hydra/ling suffers greatly.
Ensnare is only good for trapping terrans in a bad position. Sure, it nullifies stim (not entirely iirc), but it doesn't affect marines' ROF without stim. (ie: they don't need to stim to maintain their regular rate of fire). Assuming terran is getting early upgrades (when i played actively, this was always the case), hydra/ling becomes that much more ineffective (which is why lurkers are so powerful).
I don't understand how you can 4hatch, mass drones, mass an army, fast upgrade, and fast tech all at the same time in order to meet with the terran push.
I don't see any reason for the Terran player not to be able to see your 4hatch opening. Until you have zergling speed you have no way to kill the scv unless they suck donkey ass. If they see you slow tech they can adapt accordingly (ie: 4-5rax, slow tech, bunker/contain you).
* In the scenario where you are not teching, you need to keep up your army production in order to deal with any terran threat that comes your direction. At any point where you try to switch to drone production (when you expand, or whatever) the terran has a window to attack. I would argue that a passive/defensive terran who keeps adding to his critical mass while supplementing with grades and vessels will be way too difficult to deal with without lurkers or hive tech. Once the terran has a 3-control group mass, ensnare becomes nearly useless.
Your strategy relies heavily on queens to catch them out of position - but if the terran never puts himself out of position, you're fucked.
i dunno, im not trying to be pessimistic. Im all for queen usage (i use them more than anyone else i know, except for maybe Eriador? lol). But i don't think your build/plan will work against any terran who knows more about this game than 'standard play'.
I would love to see a good player try this out though to see how effective it is with a zerg who has great multi-tasking and control.
On October 28 2008 04:33 Mora wrote: neat idea. i don't think it will work for many people who do not have exceptional control with their army. Dodging ensnare is super easy because of the time it takes for ensnare to travel from the queen to its target location.
Thats not true. Ensnare ALWAYS hits its target if you target an units instead of the ground.
i don't think it will work for many people who do not have exceptional control with their army. Dodging ensnare is super easy because of the time it takes for ensnare to travel from the queen to its target location.
FE terran into 2 fact tanks will be very difficult to beat with this strat if the terran is not tactically inept. Situations to flank aren't just created by the zerg player, they're presented by the T player.
If terran goes medic heavy and uses medic walls, hydra/ling suffers greatly.
Ensnare is only good for trapping terrans in a bad position. Sure, it nullifies stim (not entirely iirc), but it doesn't affect marines' ROF without stim. (ie: they don't need to stim to maintain their regular rate of fire). Assuming terran is getting early upgrades (when i played actively, this was always the case), hydra/ling becomes that much more ineffective (which is why lurkers are so powerful).
I don't understand how you can 4hatch, mass drones, mass an army, fast upgrade, and fast tech all at the same time in order to meet with the terran push.
I don't see any reason for the Terran player not to be able to see your 4hatch opening. Until you have zergling speed you have no way to kill the scv unless they suck donkey ass. If they see you slow tech they can adapt accordingly (ie: 4-5rax, slow tech, bunker/contain you).
* In the scenario where you are not teching, you need to keep up your army production in order to deal with any terran threat that comes your direction. At any point where you try to switch to drone production (when you expand, or whatever) the terran has a window to attack. I would argue that a passive/defensive terran who keeps adding to his critical mass while supplementing with grades and vessels will be way too difficult to deal with without lurkers or hive tech. Once the terran has a 3-control group mass, ensnare becomes nearly useless.
Your strategy relies heavily on queens to catch them out of position - but if the terran never puts himself out of position, you're fucked.
i dunno, im not trying to be pessimistic. Im all for queen usage (i use them more than anyone else i know, except for maybe Eriador? lol). But i don't think your build/plan will work against any terran who knows more about this game than 'standard play'.
I would love to see a good player try this out though to see how effective it is with a zerg who has great multi-tasking and control.
Well hopefully to try and convince you that this build is a little more solid than you may think, i am going to try and attempt to answer your questions.
First off the accuracy of ensnare: Candidly i don't' think that this argument is valid. You can target a specific unit in the terran ball and ensnare will fly to it. So as far as accuracy of of the "flying" spell casting is concerned, there really is no need to worry.
Now you say that 2fact will be hard for this build to counter, and you also state that flanks occur to terran inadequacy. On the contrary it has always occurred to me that it is the aggressor and more mobile army who can create flanks, pincer attacks, and surrounds. i would be interested to hear your thoughts of how a heavy tank army that is slow and (most likely ensnared) will somehow prevent massive flanks and surrounds from a numerical superior and faster zerg army.
A terran who goes medic heavy will be using more gas on medics, less gas on vessels, tanks, and tanking up time in their rax for rines. Also the viability of medic walls? Frankly i don't think that medics have the mobility to prevent lings from running past them- and certainly not so when they are ensnared.
Now i would like to ask you about your comment about ensnare- I thought that ensnare slowed movement speed by half, and the firing rate of units is decreased. I thought that in order for an ensnared marine to return to "normal" ROF they have to stim. If not they have reduced ROF. Am i incorrect? Could you please explain your sources or where you found this information? Because candidly i had always thought the latter. Also as far as upgrades are concerned, i do believe that with my early evo i will be ahead on upgrades the entire game? Once again please correct me if i am incorrect.
Now you believe that i have stated that i mass drone, hatch, teck ext. to try and meet the terran push. In fact that's correct. I try to max those- but i do so according to scouting information. For example- early game, i would be mass droning, and saving a larvae here and there for ling/hydra. If i see terran push out with their one control group of marine and three medics- i will probably jump and make all 4-5 of my hatches make lings/hydra instead. These extra units will build fast enough, so by the time terran reaches my base- i can hold him off. Once the threat is diminished- i can go back to pumping drones or depending on what the terran is going, and the pace of the game- try and be aggressive. Really i cannot fully answer this question, because it is extremely situational- i hope that the above explanation satisfies your idea of answer. (i hope)
Well as for the 4th hatch- some people at TL have suggested that this hatch be placed at an expo- thus eliminating the argument. However i did state that i placed my 4th hatch in my base. In that case i do believe that you have a good point, terran would see that 4th hatch.
Now about that situation where i am not tecking: You see with my BO i don't intend to not teck. Quite the contrary in fact, getting a hive and moving to defiler play is what this build is all about. The only thing this build truly tires to do differently than standard ZVT is give the mid game a twist. Zerg wants to be aggressive, and can be. With new army composition i believe this is possible. Cocaine style zerg does not hinder getting hive, like i said above i am merely trying to change the way zerg gets to hive play.
Or as others have posted in this thread- the idea of transitioning into Hydra Guardian after hive play may be a good follow up to this strat *please note not my idea*
As far as a terran that is passive and turtles. Once again FINE BY ME. He can sit there all day, going off of two base- ill just get 4-5 more. I can continually scout him (thanks to queens) and while he is in the dark about my army composition- i can clearly see his. Now the point you make about when terran moves out with 3 control groups of marines and vessels and tanks. How can ensnare not be effective? at that point in the game you have 3-4 Queens with 3 ensnares each. I can cover your entire force in green snot. Will the zerg army be able to squish the ball in one go? Of course not. But that is not the point- even tho zerg "loses" the battle, their high rate of production of low tier ground units can be recreated instantly. I can throw another wave at the ball and then another. If T is going to wait that long- hive play will kick in and then T is screwed.
I don't rely on queens to catch T out of position. I use them to put T at a standstill and then use my superior mobility to PUT them out of position- through force.
Also thanks for the constructive criticism- always welcome and appreciated. if i cannot answer a question, that means that there is a flaw in my idea- obviously it then needs to be corrected.
On October 28 2008 04:28 Dromar wrote: I haven't read all 4 pages because I don't have the time right now, but I have a couple things to say.
I've been toying with the idea of non-standard ZvT builds myself, and I think we're both on the same track: less hide-and-whore, more map control/aggression early game.
The thing is, the 3hatch muta build is designed to whore drones already, which you're claiming you can do better by stopping his first "force sunks" push with lings. The thing is, every 2 lings you make could have been a drone. If you build 3 sunks, you've lost 3 drones, and kept yourself safe. If you stop that first push with lings, you're going to need to use quite a bit of larva (like say 9 or 10 for 18/20 lings), so you'll actually have less drones, and in exchange you'll get to kill his first push (making his defenses more vulnerable as you get aggressive in midgame), and also map control.
Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that using all that larva for lings to take out his first push isn't enough IMO, unless you also take advantage of your map control. Make that 4th hatch at a third base, preferably a nat so you can have a more secure 4th whenever you want it.
regarding a blog I wrote about a non-standard ZvT idea I had (though it's since been modified), see this blog post of mine.
Sorry i didn't see your question right away, about the lings taking a larvae- yes they do. So i decided to make a fourth hatch (before gas). With the extra hatch i can have the extra larvae i need to make ling/hydra here and there early game, and still stay strong economically. My teck speed suffers a bit from this, but other than that- nothing else.
Ok just finished reading the blog- interesting getting the 3rd expo. if that is a solid idea perhaps it should be incorporated into this build. You have a lot of interesting ideas there, i would suggest everyone to go and read it.
On October 28 2008 04:28 Dromar wrote: I haven't read all 4 pages because I don't have the time right now, but I have a couple things to say.
I've been toying with the idea of non-standard ZvT builds myself, and I think we're both on the same track: less hide-and-whore, more map control/aggression early game.
The thing is, the 3hatch muta build is designed to whore drones already, which you're claiming you can do better by stopping his first "force sunks" push with lings. The thing is, every 2 lings you make could have been a drone. If you build 3 sunks, you've lost 3 drones, and kept yourself safe. If you stop that first push with lings, you're going to need to use quite a bit of larva (like say 9 or 10 for 18/20 lings), so you'll actually have less drones, and in exchange you'll get to kill his first push (making his defenses more vulnerable as you get aggressive in midgame), and also map control.
Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that using all that larva for lings to take out his first push isn't enough IMO, unless you also take advantage of your map control. Make that 4th hatch at a third base, preferably a nat so you can have a more secure 4th whenever you want it.
regarding a blog I wrote about a non-standard ZvT idea I had (though it's since been modified), see this blog post of mine.
Sorry i didn't see your question right away, about the lings taking a larvae- yes they do. So i decided to make a fourth hatch (before gas). With the extra hatch i can have the extra larvae i need to make ling/hydra here and there early game, and still stay strong economically. My teck speed suffers a bit from this, but other than that- nothing else.
Ok just finished reading the blog- interesting getting the 3rd expo. if that is a solid idea perhaps it should be incorporated into this build. You have a lot of interesting ideas there, i would suggest everyone to go and read it.
Again, reps please. Assuming you get den, evo +1, and dual hydra ups with ling speed, that is 300+100+150 right there, which means you need to be on gas for at least 90 seconds to begin your research, plus about 45 more seconds to get the 75-100 gas assuming constant 3:1 ling/hydra ratio.
Then 100 gas for lair, which takes 120 seconds.
Then it would take 60 more seconds for all that tech to finish, during which you would start queen's nest (another 150 gas) and queen (100 gas each). Which is another 30 seconds.
In total you'd need 3 minutes for all of this if you started lair before hydra tech, in which case T would contain you with bunkers. If you started hydra tech before lair, your queens would be late.
So all in all, T either contains or has a 4-5 minute timing window in which to prepare his all-in attack on your base. In 4 minutes, assumign T is on 2 bases, it can mass up 2 tanks, siege, and about 3-4 groups of marine and medic and simply plug you up and kill you with that massive ranged DPS output.
I simply don't understand how you could win without gross army mismanagement by the T. You have no idea how much hydraling MMF+tank can slaughter, upped or not upped.
Oh, and medic takes 30 seconds to build. So if T averages 4 rax production during this period he can get about 8 medics and 30 MMF + 2 tanks off the 2fac.
Here's my attempt at executing the build detailed in the thread Zerg on Coke. I started off with a 9 pool and then transitioned into upgraded hydraling+queens. This was my first time doing this build so I made several errors, but I think I could have expanded more and gotten have (and +1 melee) sooner. I was so used to getting carapace first that I accidentally clicked carapace instead of missiles, but I don't think it affected me much. In terms of hydraling ratio, I had almost no lings, so next time I will need to add hatcheries to keep down my money and make more lings to support the hydras. I should have infested his first CC too XD. Keep in mind that this game was at D level on my smurf and it was my first attempt, but hopefully I can get some comments from these games on what else needs to be done and also show that it is very viable. Thanks Misrah for making this build, I plan to test this a lot more soon!
I especially liked fending off the enemy army with slow lings (I thought I was going to die because of lack of speed) and giving up no map control the entire game! As a result I could have expanded so much more than I did, but I was just so unused to that feeling. Although it won't be as easy against a better player, and if people start recognizing the build they may be able to counter it better with more harrass and better unit combos, etc, I really enjoy this build so far (and I've only used it once!)!
Edit: Ahhh, I just realized I only beat his early game push because he forgot to heal with medics... I must have done something wrong then, what do you think Misrah? Or was it just because I 9 pooled + bad economy and he 2 raxed rush which is more early than the 1 rax expand timing push? I think I also got my first gas a bit too early.
On October 28 2008 04:28 Dromar wrote: I haven't read all 4 pages because I don't have the time right now, but I have a couple things to say.
I've been toying with the idea of non-standard ZvT builds myself, and I think we're both on the same track: less hide-and-whore, more map control/aggression early game.
The thing is, the 3hatch muta build is designed to whore drones already, which you're claiming you can do better by stopping his first "force sunks" push with lings. The thing is, every 2 lings you make could have been a drone. If you build 3 sunks, you've lost 3 drones, and kept yourself safe. If you stop that first push with lings, you're going to need to use quite a bit of larva (like say 9 or 10 for 18/20 lings), so you'll actually have less drones, and in exchange you'll get to kill his first push (making his defenses more vulnerable as you get aggressive in midgame), and also map control.
Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that using all that larva for lings to take out his first push isn't enough IMO, unless you also take advantage of your map control. Make that 4th hatch at a third base, preferably a nat so you can have a more secure 4th whenever you want it.
regarding a blog I wrote about a non-standard ZvT idea I had (though it's since been modified), see this blog post of mine.
Sorry i didn't see your question right away, about the lings taking a larvae- yes they do. So i decided to make a fourth hatch (before gas). With the extra hatch i can have the extra larvae i need to make ling/hydra here and there early game, and still stay strong economically. My teck speed suffers a bit from this, but other than that- nothing else.
Ok just finished reading the blog- interesting getting the 3rd expo. if that is a solid idea perhaps it should be incorporated into this build. You have a lot of interesting ideas there, i would suggest everyone to go and read it.
Again, reps please. Assuming you get den, evo +1, and dual hydra ups with ling speed, that is 300+100+150 right there, which means you need to be on gas for at least 90 seconds to begin your research, plus about 45 more seconds to get the 75-100 gas assuming constant 3:1 ling/hydra ratio.
Then 100 gas for lair, which takes 120 seconds.
Then it would take 60 more seconds for all that tech to finish, during which you would start queen's nest (another 150 gas) and queen (100 gas each). Which is another 30 seconds.
In total you'd need 3 minutes for all of this if you started lair before hydra tech, in which case T would contain you with bunkers. If you started hydra tech before lair, your queens would be late.
So all in all, T either contains or has a 4-5 minute timing window in which to prepare his all-in attack on your base. In 4 minutes, assumign T is on 2 bases, it can mass up 2 tanks, siege, and about 3-4 groups of marine and medic and simply plug you up and kill you with that massive ranged DPS output.
I simply don't understand how you could win without gross army mismanagement by the T. You have no idea how much hydraling MMF+tank can slaughter, upped or not upped.
Ok well for starters- i should give the Bo of this build (again). I really really wish i had my reps, but as i have said before my computer is blown up- i will be getting it back soon. Once again i aplogize to everyone.
12hatch 11pool 13hatch 16-18hatch 18gass -Gas pop, throw down evo *first 100 gas to +1 missle (Start second gass at around the same time for standard 3 hatch muta) **make extra hatcheries at any point in this BO when you have the income and have scouted terran** *next 100 gas lair *next 50 den *next 100 ling speed *next 150 hydra range When lair pops throw down Queens nest Get Hydra speed after range 2nd evo chamber sometime before queen nest completes When Queen nest pops- start ensnare and build a queen ***all extra gas goes towards hydra
So t_co please explain to me where terran has a 4-5 min timing window.
t_co you seem so intent on coming up with some crazy all in strat that is going to try and break this build. Any INTELLIGENT zerg will scout this all in attempt and of course change their play. How can you bunker me in my nat? I'm building more lings and hydra early game. If i need to i can stop producing drones and mass pure ling or hydra for a short period to stop any type of bunker wall in terran could try. t_co this build is just a bit slower than 3 hatch muta. I don't see terran running around bunkering and walling off zerg nats when zerg is going muta. With this build I have a ground force faster than muta- that can easily handle any sort of early game foolishness by T. Frankly i don't understand where you are coming from. Every build has a weakness, it is good players that SCOUT and ADAPT INGAME to what they see. If i see a terran going for a sparkys rush and I'm going 3 hatch muta- I'm going to delay muta and make a sunken forest to stop him. Same can be said for this strat.
On October 28 2008 07:26 t_co wrote: Oh, and medic takes 30 seconds to build. So if T averages 4 rax production during this period he can get about 8 medics and 30 MMF + 2 tanks off the 2fac.
This comment makes completely no sense- are you trying to tell me that T has 4rax and 2fact right off the get go? Listen t_co it will also take time for terran to make these buildings- and get the teck. You forgot to add that into your equation.
@ Superiorwolf
Well i cannot watch your rep- because sadly my college computers do not have SC loaded on them. Youtube is all i have right now But anyway, the 9pool. Personaly (although i have not tried this yet) i would think that economically this build would hurt your mass too much. Not to mention it would greatly slow down your already slow teck. So IMO i don't think that a 9pool opener to Cocaine style is a good idea, unless you can do significant damage with your lings. But with any 9pool to whatever BO that is always the case lol.
Anyway glad you liked the build- I'm interested to hear your thoughts and experiences.
I suppose that you could in fact wall in zerg. The timing is in fact about the same as your 3 hat muta. The difference is that with 3 hat muta, you force T to remain at his base because of the threat of harass. I believe that there will be a small timing window for T to hit where you don't have any queens, right before your fourth hatch pops, that T can use to wall you in//build bunkers right in front of your natural. Thinking if that's true, then T should be able to use like 4 bunkers to keep you stuck inside your base, and then expand. Those are some pretty high level thoughts though, And i think that the solution would be scouting, just like you need the whole entire game of sc.
Thinking about it a little more, basically T is going to become stationary right in front of your base. If you let that happen, then you clearly failed to defeat the large ball, and you are in massive trouble.
On October 28 2008 04:28 Dromar wrote: I haven't read all 4 pages because I don't have the time right now, but I have a couple things to say.
I've been toying with the idea of non-standard ZvT builds myself, and I think we're both on the same track: less hide-and-whore, more map control/aggression early game.
The thing is, the 3hatch muta build is designed to whore drones already, which you're claiming you can do better by stopping his first "force sunks" push with lings. The thing is, every 2 lings you make could have been a drone. If you build 3 sunks, you've lost 3 drones, and kept yourself safe. If you stop that first push with lings, you're going to need to use quite a bit of larva (like say 9 or 10 for 18/20 lings), so you'll actually have less drones, and in exchange you'll get to kill his first push (making his defenses more vulnerable as you get aggressive in midgame), and also map control.
Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that using all that larva for lings to take out his first push isn't enough IMO, unless you also take advantage of your map control. Make that 4th hatch at a third base, preferably a nat so you can have a more secure 4th whenever you want it.
regarding a blog I wrote about a non-standard ZvT idea I had (though it's since been modified), see this blog post of mine.
Sorry i didn't see your question right away, about the lings taking a larvae- yes they do. So i decided to make a fourth hatch (before gas). With the extra hatch i can have the extra larvae i need to make ling/hydra here and there early game, and still stay strong economically. My teck speed suffers a bit from this, but other than that- nothing else.
Ok just finished reading the blog- interesting getting the 3rd expo. if that is a solid idea perhaps it should be incorporated into this build. You have a lot of interesting ideas there, i would suggest everyone to go and read it.
Again, reps please. Assuming you get den, evo +1, and dual hydra ups with ling speed, that is 300+100+150 right there, which means you need to be on gas for at least 90 seconds to begin your research, plus about 45 more seconds to get the 75-100 gas assuming constant 3:1 ling/hydra ratio.
Then 100 gas for lair, which takes 120 seconds.
Then it would take 60 more seconds for all that tech to finish, during which you would start queen's nest (another 150 gas) and queen (100 gas each). Which is another 30 seconds.
In total you'd need 3 minutes for all of this if you started lair before hydra tech, in which case T would contain you with bunkers. If you started hydra tech before lair, your queens would be late.
So all in all, T either contains or has a 4-5 minute timing window in which to prepare his all-in attack on your base. In 4 minutes, assumign T is on 2 bases, it can mass up 2 tanks, siege, and about 3-4 groups of marine and medic and simply plug you up and kill you with that massive ranged DPS output.
I simply don't understand how you could win without gross army mismanagement by the T. You have no idea how much hydraling MMF+tank can slaughter, upped or not upped.
I think you are overestimating the effectiveness of mnm against 4hatch hydra ling in smaller numbers. One of the big strengths of this build is to be able to crush that little group of like 12-15 marines and 4-5 medics. With good flanking you can fight that off no problem witht the sheer amount of production this build has. I think you are assuming this build has very little strength before all the upgrades are done, but really you can put up a pretty damn good fight against the T's first push with just hydra speed upgraded and slow lings. Unless the T went something ridiculous like 5 rax before fact, he'll have trouble putting out an army that can beat yours.
On October 28 2008 09:31 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote: as a response to t_co and the op:
I suppose that you could in fact wall in zerg. The timing is in fact about the same as your 3 hat muta. The difference is that with 3 hat muta, you force T to remain at his base because of the threat of harass. I believe that there will be a small timing window for T to hit where you don't have any queens, right before your fourth hatch pops, that T can use to wall you in//build bunkers right in front of your natural. Thinking if that's true, then T should be able to use like 4 bunkers to keep you stuck inside your base, and then expand. Those are some pretty high level thoughts though, And i think that the solution would be scouting, just like you need the whole entire game of sc.
Thinking about it a little more, basically T is going to become stationary right in front of your base. If you let that happen, then you clearly failed to defeat the large ball, and you are in massive trouble.
If you start your 4th hatch at 16-18 I can tell you that it is going to finish before t is going to be able to do anything. Really when you play this build that 4th hatch pops around 50-75% lair completion. At that point in the game, terran would have to be going ALL IN CRAZYNESS (and you don't scout) for something insane to happen. that is what i always thought at least- i could be dead wrong of course.
How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
If the point of this build is economy and you are denying the early T map control by producing mass units, is there a reason that you wouldn't expand with your third hatch much like you do in ZvP?
I'm not a T player, but if I saw 3 hatches in the main + nat (the starting one, the expo at 12, and the one at 16-18) I don't think I would be too concerned with looking for a 4th (the 3rd expo at 13).
*disclaimer* I'm not sure on the excact timing of the T's scout though, they could very well realize that the 3rd in the main + nat was late and go looking for another one.
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
This is why flanking is so important in this build... You won't have any 'critical mass' of bats to kill zerglings in early mid game. A good flank will easily render 6 bats useless - you'll totally outnumber them. Plus, if you get more bats, that means less medics = less heal in general, and less marines against hydras as well! This is not late game, where you have a billion barracks and can afford to get 12 firebats while still supporting the main backbone of your army, marines and medics. This is a build that aims to take map control and even kill the Terran mid game, but if the game progresses to late game the Zerg will switch to standard hive tech (but with a different combination of units) to combat the Terran ball. In early-mid game, any 'critical mass' of firebats will drastically reduce the number of marine and medic which are key. The ensnare's effects will only be accentuated when there are less medics healing, refuting your argument that ensnare does not affect the rate of healing for medics.
Your statement about the vultures taking early game control is also not possible - by the time you have any significant amount of vultures around to lay mines and keep Zerg's map control in check, you'll already have tons of units knocking on your door (unless you've done extremely fast mech, in which case you won't beat Zerg anyways because you won't have enough to defend. Hydras + slowlord that's usually at Terran natural anyways will defeat it easily unless you have a lot of siege tanks, in which case you're giving up map control again and letting Zerg expand). If you decide to turtle with those units, that's fine because the Zerg will just expand everywhere and keep you contained.
Against a Fantasy build, if one decides to go vult+tank, it is also counterable by mass expanding and taking advantage of Terran's lack of mobility. Terran takes FOREVER to get outside of their base with mech, and because with 4 hatches you'll have such amazing economy, you'll have extremely fast hive and fast upgrades and fast expansions and fast everything to easily counter the mech. Zerg can also go drops to make Terran unable to move out of their base.
Don't be so stubborn in believing that once a Zerg sets on doing one build, they can't adapt. After all, Starcraft is about scouting and changing depending on the situation. The key to stopping this build quickly is by preventing it from ever even beginning; harrassing is key.
On October 28 2008 10:17 b0red111 wrote: If the point of this build is economy and you are denying the early T map control by producing mass units, is there a reason that you wouldn't expand with your third hatch much like you do in ZvP?
I'm not a T player, but if I saw 3 hatches in the main + nat (the starting one, the expo at 12, and the one at 16-18) I don't think I would be too concerned with looking for a 4th (the 3rd expo at 13).
*disclaimer* I'm not sure on the excact timing of the T's scout though, they could very well realize that the 3rd in the main + nat was late and go looking for another one.
Well as for the 4th hatch- some people at TL have suggested that this hatch be placed at an expo. I have yet to try this, and it does seem valid to me. Once again this strat is still young, and adaptations should and will take place over time. Taking a 3rd expo is probably a good idea. When started to think/play this build doing the 3rd expo just never occurred to me.
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
medibat and vult? really? I have never seen a terran do this. If I see this i will laugh and then switch to muta. Your going to build mass rax and fact? Also holding chokes on the map? What about python? Medusa? Othello? ext. Your never going to be able to cover everything. Zerg will find a way inside. Also you can sit inside your little mine field all day, i can just mass expo- and then get my macro going. No amount of mines will stop me. Also if you truly are going to go medic bat- i hope that you are not going to spend any more gas. This build is gas intensive. You will hardly be able to afford any vessels and just a few tanks. Ensnared bats move really really slow. In fact so slow i can just micro my hydra to move away- or even better- make some muta. I can produce muta quickly and suprizingly fast. While it would take a T who is bat heavy awhile to switch to marines to fight off the muta switch. While i can just simply buy lurker upgrades for 200/200 and transition a few lurks into my build- if i see someone trying this. Also you state that once terran grabs a few gas- but on the other hand your talking about camping behind your mines. Ovie speed is not a big deal for me to upgrade. Hydra deal with mines no problem- unlike dragoons they have a high ROF.
No offense but this idea is not even thought out well. I can scout you at any point during your build, and decide to make muta- or just get the lurker upgrade and integrate a few into my army.
For the fantasy build- Your early game is vulture harass and drops. If you don't do any damage with this, you will allow zerg to macro style mass expo. With my fast hydra i can counter vults, and drops. Then according to you, T will switch to pure ground mech- forgo making valks or dual ports. T will switch to TVP style of play. I am upgrading my units faster than T is upgrading his metal- i have and upgrade advantage, and because of my hydras earlier on- vults will not slow down my expansions- so i will also have an economic advantage as well. So piled on top of this, i can scout your base- notice that you are going metal- so i can put up a spire.
THIS IS POINTLESS people please stop trying to go nuts on paper about games. Of course there is a flaw in every strat- a counter for every counter. Arguing in posts like this is not going to solve anything. People "assume" that when a zerg plays this build they will not scout or adapt to what he/she is seeing. This build is ripe for adapting. Zerg will have many production facilities, good upgrades and a good econ. The smart zerg player should always be adapting to what they are seeing. I am growing tired of players coming into this thread and creating crazy terran all in strats- or coming up with insane unit combos they have never used before- pulling execution out of their asses and then saying, HA just hard countered your build.
If your going to come up with a "counter" to this build- please give some reps of your BO, a BO list or something concrete here. I am basing all of my information from concrete Bo's that i have tested as well as a number of other players. Before you share you almighty "counter" see if your Bo is viable on paper first.
So please take a lesson from Mora and if your going to voice some criticisms at least base your objections in concrete information- not a hard counter that comes flying out of your ass.
A good flank will easily render 6 bats useless - you'll totally outnumber them.
It also means your opponent should go back to 1a2a3a4a with protoss. Seriously, flanking 6 bats with some medic support? The terran can just stim, click center of the magic box and watch the medics circle them. Whats worst, Zerglings will target marines that may not even be accessible pathing wise and other stupid things. A strategy where a few medic generating a semi-wall could mess up seems unreliable.
I also get the sense that terran that throws up buildings on the field for pathing mess ups would render lings ineffective. It feels like what boxer lives for....
hydra-ling is balanced against marine-bat in a medic-less environment. I don't think beating the three barracks units with those two should be considered anything less than sheer dominance in micro.
Against a Fantasy build, if one decides to go vult+tank, it is also counterable by mass expanding and taking advantage of Terran's lack of mobility. Terran takes FOREVER to get outside of their base with mech, and because with 4 hatches you'll have such amazing economy
Fantasy build gets vult first, and mines comes a while before speedlords (especially for the tech heavy build) which can contain you in your base. The sheer speed of vultures and reasonable power means it can even pick off isolated hydra-ling groups or go for drone snipes. (especially with help of shuttle that comes latter...and you need an absurd amount of units to deal with the mobility) If your expo was delayed too long due to vult-drone snipe, mines killing your hydra escorts or whatever, the terran rolls you over with tanks before you can macro up to hive tech.
There is a decent chance you'd lose even if you get amazing macro if you go pure ground against fully fledged terran metal ball. I'm reminded of Savior VS FBH where 3base FBH managed to outlast Savior with an entire map of resource on python. If the terran takes his half of the map with metal and camps the chokes, it would be damned hard to break at all....
SWPIGWANG, where are you getting this bullcrap? First of all you don't even address 90% of my counterargument, nor any of Misrah's and then utterly fail trying to dissect a small section. Where the hell does magic boxes have to do with anything? How can marine+firebat beat a group of hydraling? Ya sure, if you have like 1 hydra and 1 ling... Zerg will have much higher production rate than Terran, with upgrades and better economy, you'll easily be able to outmass the Terran. Can ensnared medics easily set up a medic wall? NO. Can 6 medics make a good medic wall vs a good flank? NO. Will making buildings in the middle of the map randomly help? NO. If you go with making buildings, you're just containing yourself essentially and giving the Zerg even more time to expand and etc. You won't be able to make buildings even close to their base because you'll get flanked in open areas. Do you expect some Terran to make 10000 supply depots to fend off a "possible flank"? Do any Terrans actually make random supply depots against Zerg? NO.
I have am absolutely stunned on where you get this idea that Marine+Firebat = Hydra+Lings. Without any healing power at all, marines effectively 1/4 kill themselves with a stim, and any combination will get absolutely ripped apart without medics against almost anything. Marine+Firebat would lose in cost effectiveness vs. pure ling, so this argument makes no sense at all.
Fantasy build you get 1 vulture, WITHOUT MINES, and then you get a Command Center. Fuck, Zerg doesn't even need speedlords. Zerg almost ALWAYS has an overlord at the Terran's nat choke, and hydras have such high ROF compared to other things like dragoons that if you have 5+ hydras, attack moving a low density mine field will kill all the times as soon as they pop out. Why would a smart Zerg have isolated groups of hydraling? And how could a few vultures even possibly consider attacking hydras? Even with mines, you're going to get ripped up before you can do anything. Unless the drop does AMAZING damage, Zerg will be extremely ahead. Why would you need an absurd amount of units to deal with it? You take your army, and just a few hydras will easily dispatch the vultures before too much harm is done. It's not like the Fantasy build gives the Terran some massive force that can come knocking on your front door at any moment. Plus, Fantasy doesn't even stay on vultures, he gets literally like 4 and stops after that.
Are you really trying to use FBH vs Savior as support for your argument? I didn't even watch the game, but I know that Savior suicided all his units multiple times. If a Terran turtles, a Zerg EXPANDS. If a Terran turtles like FBH, a Zerg takes the whole map. Savior lost because he sacrificed a bijillion units into a gay turtle. Are you suggesting that all Terrans should get 3 bases and then mass turtle the hell out of them? If so, why don't all Terrans do this? "Hey! If we all turtled on 3 bases, we could beat all Zergs even if they had 12 bases!"
Your arguments have almost nothing to do with the topic at hand. They make absolutely no sense at all and make your game knowledge questionable.
So now you can get whatever tech whenever you want without spending time? The terran can scan and if he finds a spire building he can transition back into standard play. While bats are not optimal against lurks, its high hp and surround makes low number of lurks ineffective. All those resource used to tech your hydra would be wasted and put you many many mutalisks behind. I'd rank 2hat turbohive over spire after queen's nest looking at this, since they tech almost the same time.
As for mech vs zerg, terran ranged damage is so powerful that mere armor is not going to cut it against 70 damage hits. If you think vulnerable ground units can rush a metal ball as well as zealots and dragoons, you'll need another head. You need that spire up, and you need it far more than a queen's nest that kills one unit every 2 minutes with a dozen clicks and needs to hover over a stack of hydra to survive.
----
You'll want a spire up, it is just too useful from everything from stopping Terran from whoring island expo to a source of mobility that vastly exceeds hydra that is all over the map, while having only marginally weaker combat power compared to hydra after spending hundreds of gas.
misrah, i think i may come out of retirement just to give this strat a try.
I am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones.
opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics 600 150 125 100 . 100 250 . 250 1000 400 400 250 . 125 ----- 3275 . 475
as you can see from the figures above (assuming they make sense), the terran has a small army to attack with, while maintaining equal teching/macro facilities, while the zerg has less. At this point in time the zerg MUST switch to ling/hydra to stand a chance (and without sunkens this could be dubious), and in the meantime the terran does not have to split his production of econ/arsenal between larva.
It's obviusly not that cut and dry - changes will (and should) be made depending on how each person scouts, but my impression is that trying to accomplish all of that in the early game leaves you slightly behind or slightly weak. however, this needs a hands-on play through to determine for certain.
about queens: The intents behind ensnare is only to reduce movement speed. However, across several units in the game, the ROF is affected slightly. I believe Dragoons ROF is affected, as are goliaths. However, firebats and marines ROF is unaffected unless they are stimmed (in which case it negates stim). I do not have a source, though i could try to look it up as it was right here on teamliquid that we did this personal testing when evaluating the viability of the Queen about 5 years ago. lol
About ensnare: ensnare is a highly effective tool - i've used it so in every matchup. Infact, i am one of only a handful of people that i've seen use it effectively in WCG games (mora vs korn, 2004. mora vs xiaozi, 2004). The problem is that if the marines see the queen before she casts ensnare (and by cast, i mean the cash of goo actually leaving her mouth), then they actually have time to stim and move out of the way and not be hit by the ensnare. This type of reaction/response is usually not practiced specifically for vsing a queen, but rather simply automatic for good players who react to any dot on their minimap by moving their marines immidiately - thereby missing being hit.
thoughts on Ensnare vs Terran critical mass: Once the terran is massed and has 8+ tanks, ensnare becomes useless for these reasons: 1) Tanks are what determine when and where the mass moves. As in all zvt skirmishes, if the tanks are out of position the zerg will dominate (usually with a lurker/ling or lurker/hydra combo). Since these tanks are either in position and seieged (and therefore ensnare becomes moot because the tank is stationary), or they're out of position and you were going to win anyway. (there are exceptions to this rule, but the point is the opening is created by the terran, not by the zerg).
2) Assuming the terran has scouted your combination (if he sees hydra he will react to hydra/lurker/ling, which requires no different a reaction than fighing ling/hydra) which means he should only be travelling on 'safe ground'. This aspect of 'tactics' may be different now than it was when i was active, as i believe nowadays the maps are much more open, making such play very difficult (if not impossible). So when i say 'travelling safe' i mean travelling on the outside paths of Luna (instead of through the middle), between the walls and the cliffs of the middle of Lost Temple, travelling along the cliffs of Gaia, etc. (i guess now that i think about it, on a map like Python the terran really has no 'way' to travel safe.)
3) ultimately my thoughts on terran critical mass and ensnare can be summed up as this: Terran's lack of mobility is already the weakness of the critical mass. Catching a terran offguard is what is going to kill him, and this is true even without ensnare. (though to be fair, most terrans do not change their army positioning when vsing ensnare, so you could argue that these opportunities are created through good zerg-play and [common] terran-ignorance.)
Like i said before though: your general theme behind your strat is intriguing. I have some time off work next week, i will try to log on and give it a try.
edit - my lacking knowledge of the current meta game may be hruting my ability to understand early game economy. so im trying to keep that in mind.
2nd edit - i apologize if my post is not coherant, i do not have time to proof read it as i am in a hurry.
A good flank will easily render 6 bats useless - you'll totally outnumber them.
It also means your opponent should go back to 1a2a3a4a with protoss. Seriously, flanking 6 bats with some medic support? The terran can just stim, click center of the magic box and watch the medics circle them. Whats worst, Zerglings will target marines that may not even be accessible pathing wise and other stupid things. A strategy where a few medic generating a semi-wall could mess up seems unreliable.
I also get the sense that terran that throws up buildings on the field for pathing mess ups would render lings ineffective. It feels like what boxer lives for....
hydra-ling is balanced against marine-bat in a medic-less environment. I don't think beating the three barracks units with those two should be considered anything less than sheer dominance in micro.
Against a Fantasy build, if one decides to go vult+tank, it is also counterable by mass expanding and taking advantage of Terran's lack of mobility. Terran takes FOREVER to get outside of their base with mech, and because with 4 hatches you'll have such amazing economy
Fantasy build gets vult first, and mines comes a while before speedlords (especially for the tech heavy build) which can contain you in your base. The sheer speed of vultures and reasonable power means it can even pick off isolated hydra-ling groups or go for drone snipes. (especially with help of shuttle that comes latter...and you need an absurd amount of units to deal with the mobility) If your expo was delayed too long due to vult-drone snipe, mines killing your hydra escorts or whatever, the terran rolls you over with tanks before you can macro up to hive tech.
There is a decent chance you'd lose even if you get amazing macro if you go pure ground against fully fledged terran metal ball. I'm reminded of Savior VS FBH where 3base FBH managed to outlast Savior with an entire map of resource on python. If the terran takes his half of the map with metal and camps the chokes, it would be damned hard to break at all....
Ok before posting things about how to counter this build- do yourself and the people reading this thread and look at the Bo and timings of cocaine style. Your going to get 6 or so bats and medics and marines and then push? Ok fine, If you move out later- I will have ensnare ready. Move sooner and ican have a matching force to meet you outside your base. i don't know how long it would take a terran FE to power out bats and medics like you predict so i cannot speculate too much.
Medics cannot heal marines and bats when they are moving- only standing still. Don't forget about that. if you medics make the "wall" all of you T players keep talking about- they certainly are not going to be rushing hydras with the bats. my hydra can snipe the bats before they even arrive and start inflicting damage. Well your other option is to have your medics go with your bats possibly? Medics will block their pathing- they cannot heal the bats while on the move- and once again my hydra will destroy them. So your last plan- and probably the best idea is to sit all of your forces into a ball. Great- i can surround, and because of your bat and medic heavy build your lack of marines will not be sufficient against my hydra. woo hoo. LOOK i countered your build on paper.
Once again the fantasy build-
Vults suck at head on fights. Sorry. hydra ling is far greater than vults will ever be. The high ROF of hydra can snipe most mines, and besides- if your going fast vult, my lords will see this. Because of the lack of marines i can have lords all over the place looking for mines. Also a drop ship. I have hydra- upgraded hydra. Vults are no threat to me, 4 vults in my main is no threat to me. what are you going to do? 4 vults is nothing. As for mines- wow i can run a few lings in and bam. All your mines wasted. I could care less about lings. What i am trying to say is, you are giving a handful of vults far to much credibility. Vults fail at head on fights. Your not going to be able to 'snipe' my hydra groups with your vaults.
Once again about the savior vs FBH game- This build will not attack T's nat or main unless it is early game- before mass tank, or late game with ultra and defilers. I am not going to waste money suiciding my units into T. 5 base Z > 3 base T Please how is terran gonig to take half of the map? if you commit to this- you will spend all day trying to defend your side of the map with a slow army- while i can cruise around with a high speed high DPS infest your weak CC's type of army. You won't be able to cover your bases because of my high unit count. I can be everywhere at once.
So this replay is a 3 hat lurker rush contain > 3 queens for broodling > into defiler.
If the game was going longer I was going to go 7-8 hat crackling/ultra.
I'm posting because I said it might help. I think my 4 hat lurker/ling/ensare build would be better but I haven't labeled any, I only posted because I mentioned this rep, I'll find others.
Also the replay is not of high quality.
Edit; this is most effective with fake early speedling attack + fake muta. Tech switches own. I imagine.
I'm go to iccup right now and play some C/C+ level games and see how it does. (the cocain zerg that is)
I have am absolutely stunned on where you get this idea that Marine+Firebat = Hydra+Lings
Starcraft (not broodwar), a game without medics, would be totally unplayable if this where not close to the case. Ever Terran player would just get massed-to-death if the balance worked like that and it would be so bad that its balance would be considered C&C level.
and hydras have such high ROF compared to other things like dragoons that if you have 5+ hydras, attack moving a low density mine field will kill all the times as soon as they pop out. Why would a smart Zerg have isolated groups of hydraling? And how could a few vultures even possibly consider attacking hydras? Even with mines, you're going to get ripped up before you can do anything.
Hydra have less range and less damage, and even lower hp than goons. If a Zerg moves out with all his hydraling, the vult can base rush. So unless the Zerg decides the sit in his base all day, it will not be able to be stay in a ball all day. While vulture cooldown is not great, it still does 10 damage to a hydra while a hydra does 8 back, add in the gas cost, slower speed and random mine kills and it is not entirely certain that hydra have a edge overall.
im surprised even decent players like chill think this is viable... what the hell are u going to do against a solid 3 group m&m army with like 5 tanks? even with ensnare he is just going to laugh at ur face since hyd/ling just melt to a massive t ground army, ensnared or not. an army like this will easily hit before you have defilers, so ur doomed. It doesnt even matter how much you have, your shit is going to be turned to red blood in a matter of seconds. what do you think happened after bw hit the scene and people switched from sc vanilla? there were enough people who still tried the old strats (no lurks) and guess what, they got owned with the introduction of medics. The only possible no lurks build is stuff where you rush to guardian or ultralisks, abusing the mobility of muta/ling to prevent him from moving out too soon and killing your expos. Or if u wanna counter some cheesy terran builds, but against a standard m&m heavy fe strat ur just fucked. Hell its annoying that lately people on tl come up with these completely random builds and think they reinvented the matchup... There is a reason no one in their right mind is playing a heavy hydra/ling style against a terran who knows what he is doing. Tbh I dont think Ive EVER seen this by a pro against a standard T strat. It sure must be because those pros dont know jack about strategy... T_T
MORA so glad your back, i can finally have some good criticisms from a good player. I am eager to read- and hopefully get to your information later tonight- but now i have some college work i must attend to.
Since you're only responding to 5% of my posts, I'll pick apart wrong stuff you say. And put a hydraling group with +1 missiles and +1 carapace vs a marine+firebat group with +1 and stim/range. Flank with hydraling and see what happens. Add medics to marine+firebat group and add ensnare to Zerg. Also make sure they are reasonable amounts of units that can be had. If you have 6 firebats, you sure as hell won't have as many marines. The Zerg will have a pretty superior force.
Hydralisk: Medium 80 hitpoints 10 damage (explosive) 4 range (5 upgraded) 15 cooldown
Vulture: Medium 80 hitpoints 20 damage (Concussive) 5 range 30 cooldown
Hydras and Vultures have the same hitpoints. Hydralisks do do less damage to vulture than vultures do to hydras, but hydralisks have regeneration and double attack rate, making it more equivalent to 16 damage hydralisks to 10 damage vultures in the same period. Their range is the same.
@ Kallepettersen Once a Terran is that big, you're no longer on hydra+ling+ensnare. You're on defiler+hydraling+ensnare. You should have several expansions and a much larger army if you don't have defilers yet.
"The only possible no lurks build is stuff where you rush to guardian or ultralisks, abusing the mobility of muta/ling to prevent him from moving out too soon and killing your expos."
Same deal with hydraling ensnare but you have a better economy and upgrades.
Getting to another point: who the hell said this is FBH vs Savior level? We aren't a++++++ progamers. This would probably be most effective up to C level. It would have to undergo extensive testing to see whether it can surpass that mark; testing this build will reveal problems and strengths and viability. Testing is what I plan to do, all this paper argument is futile.
On October 28 2008 12:14 Superiorwolf wrote: Hydralisk: Medium 80 hitpoints 10 damage (explosive) 4 range (5 upgraded) 15 cooldown
Vulture: Medium 80 hitpoints 20 damage (Concussive) 5 range 30 cooldown
Hydras and Vultures have the same hitpoints. Hydralisks do do less damage to vulture than vultures do to hydras, but hydralisks have regeneration and double attack rate, making it more equivalent to 16 damage hydralisks to 10 damage vultures in the same period. Their range is the same.
@ Kallepettersen Once a Terran is that big, you're no longer on hydra+ling+ensnare. You're on defiler+hydraling+ensnare. You should have several expansions and a much larger army if you don't have defilers yet.
i dunno what terrans you play against, but if you play at b level or higher armies of that size roll out after 11-12 minutes... especially if he scans your gimmick build and goes 2 fac instead of 2 port to get that invincible ball out even faster... i cant imagine how u wanna go 4 hat mass units with like 2389402 upgrades (evo ups, dual hyd ups, queen ups), expand all over the map and have defilers with consume ready all in 11-12 minutes... No way in hell this is gonna work against a B - A T, let alone a pro.
also maybe i exaggerated a bit, even 25-30 m&m and 4 tanks should be enough to crush almost any z ground army (without lurks) with some careful movement and micro. One large problem of hydras vs m&m is that they are medium sized vs small sized marines, means the terran ball has a much higher "power density" (think stacked mutas, they have a huge "power density").
Mora, all i can say now before i have to jump off is this- i was looking at your money calculations- (wish i had my reps to show timings lol) but how fast can terran produce what you have laid out, compared to zerg? I was just wondering. I will of course try and find this out as soon as i have time.
On October 28 2008 12:14 Superiorwolf wrote: Hydralisk: Medium 80 hitpoints 10 damage (explosive) 4 range (5 upgraded) 15 cooldown
Vulture: Medium 80 hitpoints 20 damage (Concussive) 5 range 30 cooldown
Hydras and Vultures have the same hitpoints. Hydralisks do do less damage to vulture than vultures do to hydras, but hydralisks have regeneration and double attack rate, making it more equivalent to 16 damage hydralisks to 10 damage vultures in the same period. Their range is the same.
@ Kallepettersen Once a Terran is that big, you're no longer on hydra+ling+ensnare. You're on defiler+hydraling+ensnare. You should have several expansions and a much larger army if you don't have defilers yet.
i dunno what terrans you play against, but if you play at b level or higher armies of that size roll out after 11-12 minutes... especially if he scans your gimmick build and goes 2 fac instead of 2 port to get that invincible ball out even faster... i cant imagine how u wanna go 4 hat mass units with like 2389402 upgrades (evo ups, dual hyd ups, queen ups), expand all over the map and have defilers with consume ready all in 11-12 minutes... No way in hell this is gonna work against a B - A T, let alone a pro.
Ok had to get this in before i leave- How much gas do you think it takes for zerg to make 9-12 muta, spire, and then get lurk upgrades and heavy lurk army with upgrades? Also this build is not 4 hatch mass- once again do all of us a favor and READ what has been posted in this thread. This build uses the same amount of gas as zerg playing standard 3 hatch, but instead siphons it off into different revenues of spending. So the gas argument is mute. In fact you could theoretically get a faster hive with this build- but i am hesitant to say so because i don't have enough concrete data to support this assertion.
As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before).
On October 28 2008 12:31 Superiorwolf wrote: As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before).
until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did.
also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here:
On October 28 2008 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote: Superiorwolf, what is your current iCCup ranking? I would just like to inquire this fact.
I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories.
edit: just checked out your iccup acc, 64-75 C last season t.t unless you improved drastically and are playing on a secret gosu smurf I guess Im a crapload better than you, B- with positive stats if you care...
This season I'm currently C, I've hit C+ before and think I can do it again this season. No expert pro in me... but my ZvT always brings down my ranking so I was quick to accept/try this build. As such, I've actually only used it once, but plan to use it more.
On October 28 2008 12:31 Superiorwolf wrote: As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before).
until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did.
also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here:
On October 28 2008 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote: Superiorwolf, what is your current iCCup ranking? I would just like to inquire this fact.
I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories.
The thing about defilers is wrong.
Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy.
On October 28 2008 12:31 Superiorwolf wrote: As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before).
until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did.
also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here:
On October 28 2008 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote: Superiorwolf, what is your current iCCup ranking? I would just like to inquire this fact.
I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories.
The thing about defilers is wrong.
Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy.
im not saying that literally NOBODY used defilers before a korean ever used it, just saying that it only became popular and everybody and their mother started to use it after the koreans adapted it and made it the standard, as with all other strategies nowadays.
On October 28 2008 12:31 Superiorwolf wrote: As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before).
until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did.
also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here:
On October 28 2008 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote: Superiorwolf, what is your current iCCup ranking? I would just like to inquire this fact.
I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories.
The thing about defilers is wrong.
Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy.
im not saying that literally NOBODY used defilers before a korean ever used it, just saying that it only became popular and everybody and their mother started to use it after the koreans adapted it and made it the standard, as with all other strategies nowadays.
On the other hand, you could say the same thing the other way around. NOBODY used defilers and it did not become popular until Slayer started using them. The subsequent popularity in Korea then transferred back to foreigners, after Koreans finally became dominant in the game. Foreigners have created many of the things we see today... Grrr, afaik, invented much of modern Protoss play, including sair/dt and sair/reaver and other things, as well as not so used dark archons, etc.
Guys I think you both have relavant points and disagreeing on strategic elements of strategy on a theoretical elements is usefull to the thread and the discussion, but the disagreement is not on topic anymore, suppy go on iccup and try it out!
On October 28 2008 12:31 Superiorwolf wrote: As well, the 'progamers don't use it' argument is pointless. Progamers used to not use defilers. They used to not FE every game. In fact, it has often been speculated that someday queens may be as commonplace as defilers (not that I necessarily agree with this, but many people have said this before).
until someone making a thread on tl invented it? nobody used defilers before the koreans did, nobody went FE every game before the koreans did.
also before we continue on may I just apply your own question here:
On October 28 2008 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote: Superiorwolf, what is your current iCCup ranking? I would just like to inquire this fact.
I don't even want to waste any more time arguing against your theories.
The thing about defilers is wrong.
Slayer, the european who was super gosu and according to oystein and alot of other great gamers, is one of the most talented playersf all time, teched straight to defilers after hydra/ling/lurker vs boxer as a midgame not drawn out lategame strategy.
im not saying that literally NOBODY used defilers before a korean ever used it, just saying that it only became popular and everybody and their mother started to use it after the koreans adapted it and made it the standard, as with all other strategies nowadays.
On the other hand, you could say the same thing the other way around. NOBODY used defilers and it did not become popular until Slayer started using them. The subsequent popularity in Korea then transferred back to foreigners, after Koreans finally became dominant in the game. Foreigners have created many of the things we see today... Grrr, afaik, invented much of modern Protoss play, including sair/dt and sair/reaver and other things, as well as not so used dark archons, etc.
well its kinda stupid to believe that really nobody used defilers before slayer.... Im sure somebody used them before slayer, just that this somebody wasnt quite good enough to make a name for himself... You can go further back in time and claim the first one to use Reavers with shuttles was Zileas, which is true, but his builds have nothing to do with modern starcraft, neither have Grrrs builds... Its kinda stupid to credit someone with the invention of something as fundamental as the use of a whole unit, nowadays its about small changes in timing and bo or coming up with a great strategic play, combining common units and strategies in a new fashion (like fantasy build). Im sure korean amateurs have tried billions of things with hydra/ling and even queens against terran already ages ago, and these koreans sure were easily A level.
The korean community is friggin huge and everybody dreams to be a progamer + there is a load of players who are very very good, but still lightyears away from a progamer. If you really think ALL of these players are mindless drones who just play the same standard strats, you must be out of your mind. Sadly the korean community is lightyears ahead of the foreign community nowadays, so if any revolution is going to come in any mu, it sure will be from the koreans, accept that fact.
Ensnare tracks its target I'm pretty sure, if you cast it on a unit. That way, even if they move, the epicenter of the Ensnare surrounds its target. Much easier to cast than, say, storm.
Also, I'm pretty sure back in 2003 Bill307 did a series of tests on how Ensnare affects the rate of fire of different units. I think all of them were affected. I remember Archons being slowed significantly.
We are kind of digressing from the main topic at hand here, but whatever. At least now I actually don't think that Koreans are SO far away from top foreigners. We see that our top foreigners can compete against Team B players, who I assume are all A++++ as well. I can't wait to see how NonY does ;D
All I see is that Terran is underestimating Zerg. ^^ Ok, you guys who are very free to theorycraft here, BO7 zergoncoke vs anti-zergoncoke showmatch gogogo! Post reps!
These are my 1st and 2nd attempts at the build respectively. I still am making major mistakes and the macro just starts booming really fast. A good Terran with good harass could easily deal some pretty nice damage as you're out and about the map. I really like the build though and want to fix my major mistakes asap.
Edit: Holy shit, I just was checking my replays and my APM was 200 last week and this week it's teetering at about 140? wtf, I must be tired or something. Aight I'm going to bed lol, night!
and @ t_co yeah, I'm starting from the ground up because I don't want to play on my main account until I learn this better. Note that these are all versus D's, so they aren't going to give any concrete evidence or anything because D's are pretty bad regardless of what build you're doing. Once Misrah gets his computer fixed or w/e then we'll get better replays because he's apparently using this with some success at C level afaik.
On October 28 2008 11:59 Mora wrote: misrah, i think i may come out of retirement just to give this strat a try.
I am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones.
opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics 600 150 125 100 . 100 250 . 250 1000 400 400 250 . 125 ----- 3275 . 475
as you can see from the figures above (assuming they make sense), the terran has a small army to attack with, while maintaining equal teching/macro facilities, while the zerg has less. At this point in time the zerg MUST switch to ling/hydra to stand a chance (and without sunkens this could be dubious), and in the meantime the terran does not have to split his production of econ/arsenal between larva.
It's obviusly not that cut and dry - changes will (and should) be made depending on how each person scouts, but my impression is that trying to accomplish all of that in the early game leaves you slightly behind or slightly weak. however, this needs a hands-on play through to determine for certain.
about queens: The intents behind ensnare is only to reduce movement speed. However, across several units in the game, the ROF is affected slightly. I believe Dragoons ROF is affected, as are goliaths. However, firebats and marines ROF is unaffected unless they are stimmed (in which case it negates stim). I do not have a source, though i could try to look it up as it was right here on teamliquid that we did this personal testing when evaluating the viability of the Queen about 5 years ago. lol
About ensnare: ensnare is a highly effective tool - i've used it so in every matchup. Infact, i am one of only a handful of people that i've seen use it effectively in WCG games (mora vs korn, 2004. mora vs xiaozi, 2004). The problem is that if the marines see the queen before she casts ensnare (and by cast, i mean the cash of goo actually leaving her mouth), then they actually have time to stim and move out of the way and not be hit by the ensnare. This type of reaction/response is usually not practiced specifically for vsing a queen, but rather simply automatic for good players who react to any dot on their minimap by moving their marines immidiately - thereby missing being hit.
thoughts on Ensnare vs Terran critical mass: Once the terran is massed and has 8+ tanks, ensnare becomes useless for these reasons: 1) Tanks are what determine when and where the mass moves. As in all zvt skirmishes, if the tanks are out of position the zerg will dominate (usually with a lurker/ling or lurker/hydra combo). Since these tanks are either in position and seieged (and therefore ensnare becomes moot because the tank is stationary), or they're out of position and you were going to win anyway. (there are exceptions to this rule, but the point is the opening is created by the terran, not by the zerg).
2) Assuming the terran has scouted your combination (if he sees hydra he will react to hydra/lurker/ling, which requires no different a reaction than fighing ling/hydra) which means he should only be travelling on 'safe ground'. This aspect of 'tactics' may be different now than it was when i was active, as i believe nowadays the maps are much more open, making such play very difficult (if not impossible). So when i say 'travelling safe' i mean travelling on the outside paths of Luna (instead of through the middle), between the walls and the cliffs of the middle of Lost Temple, travelling along the cliffs of Gaia, etc. (i guess now that i think about it, on a map like Python the terran really has no 'way' to travel safe.)
3) ultimately my thoughts on terran critical mass and ensnare can be summed up as this: Terran's lack of mobility is already the weakness of the critical mass. Catching a terran offguard is what is going to kill him, and this is true even without ensnare. (though to be fair, most terrans do not change their army positioning when vsing ensnare, so you could argue that these opportunities are created through good zerg-play and [common] terran-ignorance.)
Like i said before though: your general theme behind your strat is intriguing. I have some time off work next week, i will try to log on and give it a try.
edit - my lacking knowledge of the current meta game may be hruting my ability to understand early game economy. so im trying to keep that in mind.
2nd edit - i apologize if my post is not coherant, i do not have time to proof read it as i am in a hurry.
OK Mora i can now finally get to your questions, and hopefully come up with some answers.
am still very dubious about the early game economy management. 4hatch, pool, lair, den, ling speed, hydra range, evo chamber, missle +1, 24ish drones.
opposition: 4rax, 1 acad, 1 eng bay, +1 attack, range and stim, 20scvs, 1cc, 8 marines, 5 medics 600 150 125 100 . 100 250 . 250 1000 400 400 250 . 125 ----- 3275 . 475
My fist question is this- How fast can each player create these buildings? I would like to think that zerg can "finish" his BO faster than terran can "finish" his. However without my replays- I have forgotten about my exact timings. What i will suggest, if someone would like to do this before i get my computer- is play my BO vs a computer and do the Bo as fast as possible. Going mass drone whoring. I would be interesting in the timing of these buildings. Next we would also want a good terran player to do the same as the zerg. Play against a computer opponent and see how fast you can build what mora has suggested. I believe that this could give us some insight in the build timings and mechanics.
Once again i cannot help with the queen testing. I was always of the camp that ROF was decreased about 20% however like you i have no concrete evidence on that stat. Once again mora- about the fact the queen can "miss" with ensnare- you can target a unit. The ensnare will follow. There is no need to estimate and lead your targets with the queens. Because if you click on an individual unit the ensnare will go to them like a laser guided missile.
1. About the reason you have to go with on ensnare being less useful mid-late game. I have to agree with your point that indeed ensnare does nothing to tanks. However the marines guarding the tanks will still be splooged on. With their movement speed is reduced like this, they cannot prevent my fast moving ground units to closing the distance on the tanks. My mobility can be used to out flank and surround the ball. Any opening i see- i can make a mad dash for the center and the tanks. with more testing and replays i will (hopefully) be able to show how these surgical strikes can effect the ball. Remember that with this build- the likelihood of you "swallowing the ball" in one engagement is unlikely. However- even if you lose the battle you should be able to quickly recreate your fast building and numerous low tier units to give another wave at the ball.
2. As for traveling the "safe" ways. with this build or not- trying to run down a terran ball in an ally is a bad idea no matter what your unit combination is. Lurk ling is shredded- and so is hydra ling. engaging the terran at the rite time and place has always been important in ZVT.
I can agree with most of your ideas and comments, but like you also stated- the maps featured on many pro league's have perfect play for this style of zerg. IMO this zerg style may even be map dependent- kind of like terran mech is nowadays. (except opposite of course, zerg wants nice and open)
On October 28 2008 12:52 AttackZerg wrote: Guys I think you both have relavant points and disagreeing on strategic elements of strategy on a theoretical elements is usefull to the thread and the discussion, but the disagreement is not on topic anymore, suppy go on iccup and try it out!
Thank god- you couldn't be more correct. GO TRY THE BUILD- don't write, play! That is what the build need now. Mass games, then commentary. Not commentary and no games
I can't believe this thread is this long with so many long replies and superiorwolf is the only one who's posted a replay. I doubt this build could ever work, but I'd love to see a "safe" alternative to 3 hatch mutas, plus a viable use for queens and hydras in zvt.
In general you cannot say that Ensnare halves ROF. The numbers for different units very significantly and seem irrational. The reason is that Ensnare seems to slows the attack animation, i.e. ROF is only reduced for units that have one.
I tried this build yesterday on Python v. a SKTerran, but am reluctant to post the replay as I played real bad (and I am a bad player in general; luckily, my opponent was equally bad). Also I am at work and don't have it with me here :-)
So this is only an indicator, but I was really suprised about the effectiveness of Ensnare/flank and the ball sizes I could take apart, and the amount of map control I consequently had.
I never lost map control the whole game, expanded much, and after numerous victorious battles in Python's center plane (one Ensnare caught his vessel cloud, it was a great pleasure of killing off 4 or 5 vessels so easily), my opponent resorted to try drop harass me.
While the first drop took me by surprise, I defended subsequent drops with ease due to large amount of mobile units - I only used 3 or 4 pairs of scourge the whole game, as Ensnare also works nicely on shuttles :-)
In the end I felt safe enough to try to go guardian instead of ultra/defiler, but partly due to bad army control I lost my initial 10 guards to irradiate in another center battle (I otherwise won). However I was able to replace them so fast that my opponent conceded. BTW I only got 2 queens irradiated in the game but killed about 15+ vessels.
Anyways, I had similar problems as SuperiorWolf in macro management, and the early phase of the BO seems quite unrefined yet - I think I went 18 gas, evo, carapace, den, hydra speed, second evo, missile, lair, hydra range, queen's nest; i.e., I got lair later than you, and while not yet having queens I relied on carapace and a large hydra/ling army.
A final note, concerning army management (someone thought this problematic): I attached one queen each to each of my control groups of hydra/ling, that proved effective for quickly having a queen at hand while still using the majority of hotkeys for macroing.
I was overaggressive in two C+ games today and attacked into bunkers/medics tipping my hand. My replays only show that with this build Z can have a higher supply and 1/1 grades when terran is 1/0.
When I'm playing better then I have been today I'll try again and not waste my armies so that I can get to the ensare part
On October 28 2008 16:09 Luddite wrote: I can't believe this thread is this long with so many long replies and superiorwolf is the only one who's posted a replay. I doubt this build could ever work, but I'd love to see a "safe" alternative to 3 hatch mutas, plus a viable use for queens and hydras in zvt.
My replay shows queens use in zvt resulting in an almost auto win.
I have a few replays where I use queens with muta/ling vs oystein ( I lose ) but they are still interesting because I used mass midgame armies with ensare to defend against early mmf balls. I'll ask if he minds if i post 1-2
Just watched Wolf's replays. Love the CC infesting. Looks like a ton of fun, like some B.net attack match or something. Those Terrans suck, though, especially the second one.
The first Terran is overly aggressive in the beginning, which causes him to lose his initial force. TWICE! I think even normal muta harass would do him in at that point. Also has some macro problems and he forgot his attack/armor upgrades.
The second Terran just sucks. Heavy macro problems and horrible micro. The zerg didn't even need to cast ensnare.
Anyway, I now have a much clearer vision of this build. It's going to be interesting to see how this build fares against better players and bigger armies.
One thing I'd like to recommend is burrow. If the Terran casts Irradiate on a hydra during battle it can have an effect similar to storm. With burrow you can get rid of the infected hydra easily.
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon. ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon. ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players
and what are B+ and higher player in your opinion? immortal machines of destruction?? Its really bad to base the success of a strategy on the incompetence of your opponent. You may crush some D or even C level players but for what? You'll climb ranks only to get crushed at B level and having to relearn a whole matchup if you ever want to hope to have a shot against these guys.
Looking at the build timing from replays, they look quite greedy....It looks like a marine+SCV all in could end it by the 5 minute mark or eariler with so few sunken/zlings around. Evo before lings means it can get 3rax-ed to death before hydra upgrades...
On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote: How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels. ------------------- Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon. ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players
and what are B+ and higher player in your opinion? immortal machines of destruction?? Its really bad to base the success of a strategy on the incompetence of your opponent. You may crush some D or even C level players but for what? You'll climb ranks only to get crushed at B level and having to relearn a whole matchup if you ever want to hope to have a shot against these guys.
if you dont base your strat on your enemys incompetences and mistakes you will loose. If your opponent is confusable due to his lack of expereince against queens that's a factor that you should take in consideration when you decide to go queens or not. It's not a cavelry-tourney where everyone is fghthing with the same revealed weapons
Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
asdf im in the middle of being homeless and my bw cd is packed away.. HOW AM I GOING TO TRY THIS OUT?
edit - why do you go +1 missle for hydras instead of +1 attack for lings. or for that matter, why not go +1 armor and benefit both?
im sorry if you already explained this.
edit edit - the more i think about it the more fun i think this strat will be. I'm still fairly certain that at the midgame the terran (if he plays right) will be at a significant advantage - but who cares.
For the first year that i played zerg i was determined to make 1base zerg vs terran work. And i was alot more successful with it than anyone wanted to give the strategy credit for. I was fast-lurking, or going burrow strats, or mass ling into 2 hatch muta; all strategies that are not effective enough in competitive play if the terran player plays his cards right. But it was still fun. And i could still beat what were considered 'decent' players with my builds.
this one i don't think is any different. it's fun. (and alot more viable than 1base-2hatch-masslings. lol)
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons- 1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Also why will terran have a significant advantage? Please i want to know why? (so that way i can fix it)
About the mid game- I am now thinking (once i get more replays and time playing this build) that perhaps getting a few lurkers in the mid game could be viable once you have secured your 3rd gas. Now i am certainly not talking about the amount of lurker composition that you would find in your standard lurk ling army, i am talking about just a few (3-4) with your armies to hopefully be able to deal significant damage while zerglings and hydra with ensnare force the terran to ball to not retreat. I believe that this small number of lurkers would suffice because you are going to be getting missile upgrades faster- so lurks will be very very deadly IMO. Like i said before atm this is speculation because i have yet to try this idea out, and attackzerg, superiorwolf and metaspace have not gotten back to me yet- about how they feel about the build, and if you have the gas flow to facilitate this idea.
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons- 1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Also why will terran have a significant advantage? Please i want to know why? (so that way i can fix it)
About the mid game- I am now thinking (once i get more replays and time playing this build) that perhaps getting a few lurkers in the mid game could be viable once you have secured your 3rd gas. Now i am certainly not talking about the amount of lurker composition that you would find in your standard lurk ling army, i am talking about just a few (3-4) with your armies to hopefully be able to deal significant damage while zerglings and hydra with ensnare force the terran to ball to not retreat. I believe that this small number of lurkers would suffice because you are going to be getting missile upgrades faster- so lurks will be very very deadly IMO. Like i said before atm this is speculation because i have yet to try this idea out, and attackzerg, superiorwolf and metaspace have not gotten back to me yet- about how they feel about the build, and if you have the gas flow to facilitate this idea.
lol? the build is Defiant!!!
anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal. edit: when you say to start +1 armor after +1 missile attack, i think it would be better to get +2 missile attack. +2 missile attack costs 125/125 and overall i think having 7 damage instead of 6 is a big deal, like mentioned above. (not to mention the benafit lurkers will get) i think best resulsts would be to get +1 missile attack, then start +2 missile and +1 carapace at same time or roughly the same time (whenever you get the money)
On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote: Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
i dont think it would be hard micro queens because you are trading the standard 9-11 mutas for the queens; queens are easier to micro than mutas... trust me they are.
Well I'm interesting to hear the +2 attack idea. The reason that i need to get the +1 carapace going is because your going to need to match terran +1 attack. You want your lings and hydra to stay alive long enough to get some damage on the ball you know? I plan to do more testing once i get my computer back, and i will probably play a few games of each upgrade to try and find the most successful.
Also the queens, i don't think you are understanding what i am talking about with the queen play. I am referring to the fact that you going to have multiple control groups of units- and at the same time micro your queens for ensnare. I was trying to find out from the people that have played this build, if the micro is possible, and you can still feel like you have good control over your ground units.
On October 29 2008 04:08 PsycHOTemplar wrote: If necessary (quicker queen or more hydras), you should start your queen just after you start ensnare.
why that? There's no point in having ensnare, when no queen can use it, right?
You should hatch queen first and only then research ensnare.
To be precise, you can have ~10 seconds delay before researching ensnare, since when you build queen and ensnare at the same time you have to wait about 10~12 seconds after research is done till queen has enough energy for cast. So again, just to add more emphasis, hatching queen before upgrade will give you faster ensnare.
On October 29 2008 05:38 Misrah wrote: @ Mora-
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons- 1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Hydra's much more expensive than zergling, deals same amount of damage and has slower rate of fire. Furthermore, against m&m +1 attack for hydra, is actually +0.5. First upgrade should definitely be +1 carapace, in my opinion.
On October 29 2008 06:33 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal.
Upgrades are applied before division by unit size.
On October 29 2008 04:08 PsycHOTemplar wrote: If necessary (quicker queen or more hydras), you should start your queen just after you start ensnare.
why that? There's no point in having ensnare, when no queen can use it, right?
You should hatch queen first and only then research ensnare.
To be precise, you can have ~10 seconds delay before researching ensnare, since when you build queen and ensnare at the same time you have to wait about 10~12 seconds after research is done till queen has enough energy for cast. So again, just to add more emphasis, hatching queen before upgrade will give you faster ensnare.
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons- 1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Hydra's much more expensive than zergling, deals same amount of damage and has slower rate of fire. Furthermore, against m&m +1 attack for hydra, is actually +0.5. First upgrade should definitely be +1 carapace, in my opinion.
On October 29 2008 06:33 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal.
Upgrades are applied before division by unit size.
Can't argue with that logic. +1 carapace gogogoggogo
On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote: Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
1. Early game dominance is really nice. I think there is definitely a timing against a Zerg but as long as you scout well and see when they move out, you'll have enough to deal with the standard small mnm group that first pushes out.
2. During mid game I actually had a gas surplus, so I could definitely afford going lurkers. There is a lot of gas and a lot of minerals so it's really about possible to do anything.
3. Queens were not much of a micro hassle. APM, not sure about this. The ensnare really helped a lot in the battles.
4. Need to play more since I've only played the build 3 times and haven't gotten to a real late game yet... I would think that defiler -> ultra play is better, and the melee upgrade timing is the same timing as a standard ZvT imo. You could even go straight to ultras because you have so many expansions and can support it easily, as well you'll probably already have +2 so your +5 ultras will be very fast.
1) early game dominance was very nice. You definately have to walk a fine line between unit and drone production from what I have seen. It seems to me that I was generally high on minerals and starved on gas in the beginning of the game, getting those upgrades early + hydras definately requires an earlier 2nd gas than normal.
1 continued ) I also was able to mass expand very early due to my mineral surpluss which set me up nicely for midgame. By the time I stopped the 3 tank vessel 2 controll group push I was on 4 gas.
2) I actually dont think that lurkers would be the best choice to add to the army. being on 4 gas early lets me get a fast hive which means quick transition straight to ulras. I think delaying hive to add lurkers would be a mistake, especially since the point of the build is to break the first terran ball and get to hive.
3) I kept my hatcheries on 1 handed keys (122345) and it wasnt that bad. Queens were also nice since I could generally set up to flank the ball (big open area on python) initiate the attack with ensnare, and then 7p8p9p my groups into it. I didnt hotkey the queens, rather I just told em to follow the controll groups of hydraling. I did get some queens irradiated during the fight, but I didnt think that was really a big deal since I got ensare off and they are relatively cheap.
4) for late game play I would say go straight ultras. You should be at about +1 melee/ +2 carapce when you hit hive and being on 4 gas you are going to have immediate access to them. Early cows can ruin a T's day. I also ran into bad micro problems with swarm getting into positions where hydra's couldn't deal damage. I would definately say go for the early ultras and add defilers once you are on pure ultraling.
Overall I think the toughest part of this build is the unit/drone balance in the early game. You need to be ready for the early 2 medic push, but at the same time you want to be as greedy as possible to set up that mid game hydra pump.
Iunno, I'm not the greatest player (like 130ish apm noob) but the build seemed effective for me the two times I tried it. The first time I lost due to late game incompetance, though I definately entered the late game with an advantage, and the second game I won by raping the initial 2 medic push and then cracking his nat.
This is an interesting concept, and just like Chill I had written it off during the first few paragraphs just due to some minor errors in spelling and some basic things like TvZ instead of ZvT.
However, I too have toyed with this idea quite a while back. It is very very interesting and considering I had some success with it a long time ago when I quite frankly sucked balls. I would be very interested in trying it again now. I will try this out and get back to you, I am also around a C rank Zerg.
On October 29 2008 11:09 b0red111 wrote: 1) early game dominance was very nice. You definately have to walk a fine line between unit and drone production from what I have seen. It seems to me that I was generally high on minerals and starved on gas in the beginning of the game, getting those upgrades early + hydras definately requires an earlier 2nd gas than normal.
1 continued ) I also was able to mass expand very early due to my mineral surpluss which set me up nicely for midgame. By the time I stopped the 3 tank vessel 2 controll group push I was on 4 gas.
2) I actually dont think that lurkers would be the best choice to add to the army. being on 4 gas early lets me get a fast hive which means quick transition straight to ulras. I think delaying hive to add lurkers would be a mistake, especially since the point of the build is to break the first terran ball and get to hive.
3) I kept my hatcheries on 1 handed keys (122345) and it wasnt that bad. Queens were also nice since I could generally set up to flank the ball (big open area on python) initiate the attack with ensnare, and then 7p8p9p my groups into it. I didnt hotkey the queens, rather I just told em to follow the controll groups of hydraling. I did get some queens irradiated during the fight, but I didnt think that was really a big deal since I got ensare off and they are relatively cheap.
4) for late game play I would say go straight ultras. You should be at about +1 melee/ +2 carapce when you hit hive and being on 4 gas you are going to have immediate access to them. Early cows can ruin a T's day. I also ran into bad micro problems with swarm getting into positions where hydra's couldn't deal damage. I would definately say go for the early ultras and add defilers once you are on pure ultraling.
Overall I think the toughest part of this build is the unit/drone balance in the early game. You need to be ready for the early 2 medic push, but at the same time you want to be as greedy as possible to set up that mid game hydra pump.
Iunno, I'm not the greatest player (like 130ish apm noob) but the build seemed effective for me the two times I tried it. The first time I lost due to late game incompetance, though I definately entered the late game with an advantage, and the second game I won by raping the initial 2 medic push and then cracking his nat.
I LOVE YOU.
Straight teck to ultras? Do you know what time you were getting to hive play?
Also the drone balancing and stopping the first push is indeed a bit stingy. Proper scouting is key, so you can drone whore for as long as possible.
I am glad to hear you like the build.
Perhaps I/m being to biased, but i think that so far, people generally have a (good)? consensus on the build? With a little tweaking- perhaps this could become a viable build.
But i have one other question- In your opinion how difficult is this build to pull of? Comparing to 3 hatch lurker and 3 hatch muta. Ideas, thoughts?
Also starved for gas- well in that case we can try this:
12hatch 11pool 13hatch 16-18hatch at third expo 18gas evo after gas pops **Add extra hatcheries at anytime you have surplus minerals** -1st 150gas get +1 carapace (then get +1 Melee) -next 100 Lair SECOND GAS *still need exact timing window though* -next 50 Den -next 100 Ling Speed *When den pops get hydra range, follow with speed* Queens nest when lair pops -start building queen -10 or so seconds into queen build, start researching ensnare 2nd Evo chamber- start +1 missle
Thanks to everyones suggestions and comments, your community has help the BO become more streamlined i believe.
I don't know, I think it's a lot easier in general because lurkerling is just so much harder to use for obvious reasons. Queens aren't too difficult to use, I hotkey them to 0 and make them follow a hydra or something and cast ensnare when I need to. The build will take getting used to, I still keep getting carapace before missiles but it's not that big of a deal imo. Army control is definitely a lot easier in some ways, but you still have to be aware of them at all times and get good flanks.
On October 29 2008 11:20 mSLeGenD wrote: This is an interesting concept, and just like Chill I had written it off during the first few paragraphs just due to some minor errors in spelling and some basic things like TvZ instead of ZvT.
However, I too have toyed with this idea quite a while back. It is very very interesting and considering I had some success with it a long time ago when I quite frankly sucked balls. I would be very interested in trying it again now. I will try this out and get back to you, I am also around a C rank Zerg.
Cant wait to hear from you
@superiorwolf
Ya i think that InRaged and your idea for the +1 carapace is a much much better idea than mine. The BO has now been changed. But the next question is this- what to upgrade with the second evo. missile or Melee? Actually- i don't think that it will matter because +1 carapace will be getting done soon as well, and you should be able to go both? idk.
Basically i am wondering, THOUGHTS ON UPGRADE ORDER PEOPLE?
I like b0red111's idea of just going straight to ultra/hydra/ling and skip everything else. Thoughts? ideas? once again I'm going to ask about UPGRADE ORDER- to help facilitate ultra rush?
Once the T realizes that you are not going lurker, he is likely to make a lot less vessel than usual, so do you guys think burrow is made any more viable with this build?
On October 29 2008 11:57 Ideas wrote: Once the T realizes that you are not going lurker, he is likely to make a lot less vessel than usual, so do you guys think burrow is made any more viable with this build?
Hmmm that is really a great point.
IMO i think that burrow would be very game dependent- so i would hesitate to say that you should get it every game. On the other hand tho- the thought of burrow-ensnare-super surprise ambush flank on a mid-game terran would be EPIC.
Burrow has many uses outside of the obvious ambush, scouting is also good. however i don't see a use for burrow early game because you are going to need all of your gas for ups, and other things. However in the mid game, possibly before T comes out- it has a possibility. Burrow is cheap at that point, so idk. Once again i would have to say game dependent.
The 2nd gas timing is definately critical. I havent exactly figured it out, but its definately gonna be one of the key points of the build because too early leaves you with no minerals and too late stops the hydra upgrades. I think I was going 2nd gas after lair and den which worked out decently. In the games I was playing against entropy (just to toy with the build order) I was hitting hive around 9:20. Even though its just entropy I still tried to make a reasonable number of hydra and ling to break a competant T ball (I had like 1.5 controll groups of hydra and 2 of lings with 2 queens) I stayed on one evo until hive as well which put me at +2 carapace by the time hive finished.
but yeah, once you're on 4 gas, you can basically pump straight ultra's which I would think gives the potential for an early game ender.
Oh, and for upgrade order I would DEFINATELY recommend +1 and +2 carapace off 1 evo chamber then +3 carapace and +1 melee off a second\
EDIT: another thing that I noticed is that this build works much better if you are able to pull off a 3 hat before pool ( you scout like a 14CC or something). I'd definately give the 3 hat before pool a try, even if its not something you can use every time, it definately works well with the mass low tier units idea and lets you take your 4th gas expansion before lair finishes.
I agree, 3 hatch is indeed the best start for this build, but i am worried about bunker rush- and early game all in with T players. But your right, if you can scout the 14cc defiantly go 3 hatch.
For the second gas, i will look at my replay timings (ONCE I GET THEM) and let you know what i was doing originally. Hive around 9:20? That is early. Really really early. If you mass expo'd you could easily get 4gas and then go mass ultra. That ultra would be so quick- it's scary.
I tried playing with the original BO and the problem I'm getting is that m&m is just way stronger and more cost effective then hydra-ling in mid game. Maybe it'll work if you can get enough hydra-ling out, but the second problem insufficient hatcheries. A lot of hatcheries are needed to make enough units to combat the T ball.
I'm going to try with the new BO with carapace upgrade first and fast ultras ftw!
Edit: I tried the new BO and it's actually viable. With this build, zerg masses hydra-ling to contain and expo. Then quickly transition to ultras. Once ultras are out, m&m don't stand a chance. (Hive at around 10 minutes...fully upgraded ultras at around 13 minutes.) I won with just mass ultra ling.
I'm barely a C- so maybe my opponent was bad. He did irradiate the ultras, but that wasn't enough because irradiate helps kill m&m faster. A better terran will go tank heavy with more factories to kill ultras. If that happens, I'm thinking after using queens for ensnare, broodling can be upgraded to battle seige tanks. spawn broodlings some seiged tanks so they will fire at tehmselves and then flank with ultra-ling. POSSIBILITIES!
I hope some higher level players try this Zerg on Coke BO...just for fun...with replays!!!
On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote: Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
Preliminary results, use grain of salt: 1) Early game dominance existed and was very refreshing. My (weak) T opponents seemed at loss what to do. From mid-game on I was able to contain the T effectively and crush hes repeated attempts to break out by trading armies and reprocduing rapidly (as the build hoped for).
2) Gas was the limiting factor. As b0red111 said, 2nd gas needs to be early to have gas for all needed upgrades (mins and supply count on the other hand rocket so fast I have not yet coped with it properly). Mixing in lurkers would be a problem midgame gas-wise, and I do not feel they complement the build well (mobility!), nor had I the impression you'd need them.
3) Not at all. Micro was way easier than lurkerling. For me, macro was easier in consequence. Ensare worked excellent (at my skill level). My way of tackling the ball was attaching (follow mode) a queen to each control group (3 to 4 in mid-game), setting up a flank, then a-moving all units onto the ball, at the same time selecting the queens (using mouse) and casting ensnare; the timing being such that ensnare hit the moment my units came into range (easy to do as queens are so fast, and fly). From the T's point of view, the moment he saw my attack coming, his ball got ensnared. :-) Most times I had more queens than needed, and was then able to Ensnare vessels, reinforcements, etc. The battle quickly became so favourable most of the times that I was able to quit microing earlier than usual (and go back to macroing - no unburrownig lurks, complex repositioning, no checking on scourge count etc.)
4) For the fun of it, I tried guardian. Despite beeing affordable, I felt they did not work well in practice, as they are so much slower than the rest of the army, and were too weak due to lack of upgrades.
Other comments:
Going carapace first worked well for me.
My economy was strong enough to accomodate for early second evo, and third evo before hive. Upping melee or missile probably depends on tank count (my opponents used few tanks, so I went missile).
Hive can be reached faster than usual due to early queen's nest. Against my opponents I could afford going hive very early, leading to early cracklings. Very nice.
Surprisingly, broodling for late game might be viable, I had 6-8 queens quite charged during late game.
I was able to contain T early and efficiently.
I had no situations were burrow seemed useful. Having map control, suprising the T seemed unneeded. Irradiate was no problem, as my opponent had trouble to micro his vessels (Ensnare, hydra presence) as well as keep the count high.
Mixing in ultras early seems doable. I feel you still need a good hydra count to oppose vessels, though; also, the overall DPS during an attack on a ball is better using a combination of ranged/melee attacks.
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: I've tried and failed all night doing this ZvT vs C+ Terran.
It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
I am not good enough at controling large armies for this to work for me.
What are your upgrades at 9 minutes? What's T's ball size at that time, compared to your army size? What was your army mix?
I suspect the large number of tanks is the main problem? If so, I imagine you tried attacking the ball while tanks were not sieged (i.e., while ball moves). Was that possible?
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: I've tried and failed all night doing this ZvT vs C+ Terran.
It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
I am not good enough at controlling large armies for this to work for me.
post replays on youtube, so i can watch them lol Otherwise I'm going to have to wait for meta/or you to give me a commentary on paper. And that is never as fun.
what are you grades at 9min? your expos should be huge now- and you should be able to constantly pump units from a plethora of hatch. You say that this build is serving you well until that point, so it makes me think that you have map control- so more expos? I am just throwing this out there because i have not seen or heard anything about your games. Just trying to take this at face value.
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
Getting broodling may be possible- it could certainly help against those tanks- and ya perhaps the splash damage could do some good work against the other tanks, and m&m. Once again tho- your going to need to get the upgrade (more gas) and also make sure that your queen numbers stay high because you going to NEED ENSNARE as well. Basically i just really really really want my computer back so i can mass game this build and try all of these new ideas.
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: I've tried and failed all night doing this ZvT vs C+ Terran.
It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
I am not good enough at controling large armies for this to work for me.
this.
i called it.
edit - hydra/ling w/ ensnare does not even come close to equating the dps of lurker/ling. it also does not come anywhere close to equating the DPS of marine/tank.
Once the T ball gets to 3 control groups, you're going to be in trouble. Best bet at that point is to keep ensnaring his army and slow him down and/or put him on tilt and then attack (and keep his army count down, as the strategy is intended to do).
the real problem with this build is that your army is only effective if the T is out of position - can you can't force him to be out of position.
btw, someone who is awesome should retest those ensnare numbers. i've seen those numbers repeated several times but they seem really really off to me. Not a credible source.
Well i distinctly remember a game when T had gotten quite the large ball. Took it down, but it took many units to do so.
I need rep's and i will mass game this build to try and find some type of answer for you Mora. If your right on all of these accounts then the build will need to be drastically changed.
Back when i was playing this build- when T would get a large force, it took me many waves of units to bring it down. I have stated in earlier posts and will now again, that this build cannot swallow the ball whole. You are going to have to take chunks of the ball- bit by bit.
I am going to try once again to try and advocate the following (things i plan to do once i can be back on b.net) But I'm wondering if anyone wants to try and come up to the plate now, and do something.
Upgrades- How far ahead is the zerg player in upgrades when T has 3 control groups.
Expos- How many do you have? You need upgrades, to supply and support your constant waves of units.
Hatchery Numbers- How many can you build realistically and how many do you have producing at this stage?
Once again i am going to try and suggest a mid-late game switch to a more luker heavy build. I figure that because this strat will give you the early game dominance you should be able to secure more gas faster. The result should be that you have make more lurkers. Because the extra gas you have taken should make up for the gas you are losing buying queens, and upgrades.
Those are my best ideas on taking down the ball at this time. I have already expressed other repeated ideas in other posts in this thread. If Mora is correct, we have a serious problem.
The Ball, so far this build has shown me this:
If the terran leaves his base before this 'critical mass' he will be behind. His army will be puny, and by the time he can reach the critical mass that attackzerg and mora are talking about, zerg should have crazy expos and fast ultra on the way.
In the off chance that terran doesnt attack and simply masses units inside of his main:
Can zerg create enough expansions, and get such an insane production rate to stop this push?
Or can zerg switch to mid-late game lurker transition? to stop the ball.
If the answer is a NO to the above questions, and has been shown in reps (and after i mass game for a few weeks) then the viability of this build is nonexistent. My idea will have failed, and cocaine style will be nothing but a useless way to beat terran noobs.
it seems to me if mins consistently high early on, you may want to add a few more hatches transitioning into ultras is much more intelligent than either defilers or guardians ~_~. +1 ranged attack seems silly to me because... -the hydras do 1/2 damage -they are meant to be meat shields -as long as your lings are dealing the damage and able to do so thanks to your hydras, no problemo
not sure if +1 carapace or melee would be better... seems like carapace would be stronger just off the top of my head because it makes the hydras last longer, and boosts the lings aswell.
delaying the queens a bit while ensnare is researching could be another way to conserve gas during the mid-game
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
Well, you can just broodling the tanks....
I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army.
On October 30 2008 04:44 Misrah wrote: Well i distinctly remember a game when T had gotten quite the large ball. Took it down, but it took many units to do so.
I need rep's and i will mass game this build to try and find some type of answer for you Mora. If your right on all of these accounts then the build will need to be drastically changed.
Back when i was playing this build- when T would get a large force, it took me many waves of units to bring it down. I have stated in earlier posts and will now again, that this build cannot swallow the ball whole. You are going to have to take chunks of the ball- bit by bit.
that's the thing about the terran arsenal. If the terran is using his race properly, he shouldn't ever lose it 'bit by bit'. Typically the terran ball falls in big chunks (usually from lurker fire). The only way hydra/ling can take it down in big chunks is by catching it out of position.
Once again i am going to try and suggest a mid-late game switch to a more luker heavy build. I figure that because this strat will give you the early game dominance you should be able to secure more gas faster. The result should be that you have make more lurkers. Because the extra gas you have taken should make up for the gas you are losing buying queens, and upgrades.
I believe that this is a poor idea. I think the strat may be viable - maybe not at the highest eschelon - but certainly viable below it. If you're going to get queens and queens nest and upgrades, i would forgo lurkers until late game (if ever). In the mid-late game transition it would seem best to get filers as fast as you can. Your army already has upgrades, and with swarm to give you lasting resilience until plague comes into play, you should be able to then take out the ball in big chunks.
I think the best bet is to spend all your extra gas on queens (until you need it for defilers). By constantly using ensnare, the goal would be to keep the Terran passive/defensive for as long as you can - allowing you to expand and tech. If he is ensnared everytime he moves out of his choke, he will not be able to keep his ball in one piece (and if he seperates his ball, well, that's the whole point); if you can manage to keep 1/3 of his ball ensnared everytime he moves out, i think you will force him to split up or stay passive. You do this with more than just 3 queens.
If the terran is going 2fact tank, it would be wise to research broodling at this time (you should have 5-6 queens). Again, the whole point of this strategy is to not attack until you have positional advantage - taking out key tanks will allow for this even more so.
The Ball, so far this build has shown me this:
If the terran leaves his base before this 'critical mass' he will be behind. His army will be puny, and by the time he can reach the critical mass that attackzerg and mora are talking about, zerg should have crazy expos and fast ultra on the way.
The 'critical mass' we are referring to should occur much before 'crazy expos' and ultras are on the way. It's actually right after the early-mid transition. He should have 3 control groups, and you should be very hard pressed to deal with the conflict head-on (and dealing with it at your expo is no better a situation). which is why i say: make queens sooner. and make more of them. Keep him passive or make him restlessly move out of position.
I want my strat to be viable at the highest echelon- otherwise what is the point of playing it? You are suggesting Broodling upgrades as opposed to lurker? probably a better idea because the gas usage would be more well spent, and considering you already are going to be getting queens- would be a more useful idea.
I am still hesitant to write this build off just yet, i want to still do some more mass games and then post them. I am probably being very biased right now, but i want more testing, more replays and more players trying this build. I guess what i am trying to say is; Mora perhaps you are right. But i want more concrete data for myself. (i just don't want to let this die, i thought that perhaps we could be on to something. )
THIS GOES TO YOU!!!!!! PEOPLE THAT LURK THIS THREAD- please for the love of god post replays, give your opinion on your play, how you think the game went, ext. I need it- we need it. Better to beat the horse dead, then let it slowly limp away. If Cocaine style is really a bad idea, i want to be proven so without a doubt. I just don't want this to die as a whisper.
I realize that you were not trying to throw down the hammer- I'm just getting so anxious, not having my computer and having to try and scramble to read up the battle reports of other people. While not being able to draw from my own experiences. Also i can't post replays, or further the discussion- with in game annalists about my/others play.
I'm excited to hear that you are still willing to give this build a chance tho, i hope that with your experience you can see some aspects of game play that i may have missed. I am just going to truly try and believe that somehow we can make this work- no matter what level of play it is tested on. Just a few more bugs to fix, and then i think we could actually have something to work with on a more grand scale.
Missile upgrade is kind of pointless unless you want more Lurkers and counter Marines +1armor to kill them in 2 hits not 3
I hate seeing my lings to melt in front of MnM so I love idea of hydras getting 1st few hits so lings can get closer - carapace upgrade helps and in this build it can be researched even before T has +1 attack. I believe it can be used in some sort of timing attack. BTW less hotkeys needed is life saver itself, it makes controlling army much easier.
I think adding Lurkers, even only few can help this greatly. I need to play more but I found that Queens max their energy faster then I expected so even 3-4 for starters can be enough -> more gas on other things.
2nd gas faster allows to get melee and if needed burrow upgrades faster. - It's crucial if Terran tries to contain - intercepting reinforcements, especially killing tanks. (it's ez to find holes in contain and avoid 1st MnM group through them) - Maybe burrow is not essential but it saves much more lings during ambushes (Marines are spread and being taken down before they even stim) - If Terrans responds by adding more Firebats it helps to get hydra upgrades much faster, morphing Lair at the same time. (killing MnM + Firebat mix is whole another issue itself;) edit: I mean scouting what Terran is going into decides what to upgrade 1st and how many hydras to make) - If gas starts to pile up Drones can always be taken off it
I remember reading NonY's posts about reaserching +50energy for Arbiters - when + 50 energy up is done every caster starts with 62(?) energy not 50 so that means Ensnares faster.
On October 30 2008 08:51 Misrah wrote: I realize that you were not trying to throw down the hammer- I'm just getting so anxious, not having my computer and having to try and scramble to read up the battle reports of other people. While not being able to draw from my own experiences. Also i can't post replays, or further the discussion- with in game annalists about my/others play.
I'm excited to hear that you are still willing to give this build a chance tho, i hope that with your experience you can see some aspects of game play that i may have missed. I am just going to truly try and believe that somehow we can make this work- no matter what level of play it is tested on. Just a few more bugs to fix, and then i think we could actually have something to work with on a more grand scale.
im very flattered and all, but why do you think i am good? lol.
i used to be decent when i was active, but i'm definitely not anywhere close to decent now.
Infact, i've played superiorwolf 3 times or so a couple of months back. iirc he raped me 3-0. He's a much better player than i am.
mid game i think hydra ling, if microed perfectly with teh queen can effectively deal with the push. or another possibility is that you go straight for his natural. most likely, he will try to save it adn then is the time to ensnare while he tries to retreat. altogether, the zerg player has to out macro and micro the terran player significantly to win. after mid game theres no way hydra ling can stand against a fully upgraded m&m with half-full control group of tanks/vessels. even with defiliers. lots of problem are caused by drops fromt eh terran. hydra/lings cant deal effectively with 7rines+1medic.
Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion)
But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends.
He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally.
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
Well, you can just broodling the tanks....
I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army.
You get more mobility with the queen, so unless T has just about perfect control of their ball, you should be able to snipe the tank (scouting depending)
2 other ideas- If/when T decides to move out, you might want to think about countering the nat. You can broodling any tanks that are helping to defend, and the whole point of this is your army is more mobile. You might be able to snipe the nat cc (map dependent), and then you only need to worry about the ball.
The other idea is that lurkers technically do splash, not higher dps. Ideally, you would have enough gas for both broodling (getting the tank) and lurkers (killing m/m). It looks like the decision of which to get first is going to depend on (just to name a few): Number of tanks T has (more tank=broodling), number of m/m (more m/m=lurk), skill of the players (Lurks are better at a lower level, higher level players spread better, how many hydra you have (more hydra makes it easier to get lurks), how many queens you have (more queens=more broodling=less tank/medic), etc. Interestingly enough, what map you're on has just about the least effect- Narrow corridors are good for tanks and for lurkers, so you need to look at tank/marine/your army composition more.
Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion)
But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends.
He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally.
I watched the rep. First off, I think you could have expanded MUCH more. You had a ton of gas, and never enough minerals. Either you should've expanded more, or you should have made more drones in the beginning. You were using up your minerals, but you had extra larvae everywhere. More mineral expansions.
Queen use. You didn't really use it...in the beginning you had just lings. It was lucky for you that the T decided not to attack you straight off the bat or get a lot of firebats to counter. You should probably get more hydras for taking care of firebats and get a queen's nest WITH A QUEEN much earlier in case the Terran tries to push out early. Also scourge earlier could have taken care of the irradiate/dmatrix.
I think this play transitions into fast ultras really well since there is a surplus of gas for them. Hydra-ling cannot take on m&m army, so queens should use ensnare to 1) buy time if they don't attack when ensnares effect is on 2) snipe units if they attack with only half their army because of ensnared units lagging behind. It's kinda of like a hydra-ling queen contain until ultras are out. Just upgrade and expand. (upgrades should be carapace and melee, no missles)
Hm...so I have low level D replays. Will they be welcomed?
wow a big turnout suddenly, thanks for responding everyone! (specifically Too_MuchZerg and Rucky for trying the build- Too_muchZerg thanks for the replays!)
@Rucky- YES THE WILL, NEED REPLAYS NOW!!!!!! plz?
**Ohh as a note, i have not yet been able to watch any of your builds- to give my own critique. My college computers do NOT have SC, so the only way i can watch is an vpfod on youtube or something of that nature.**
Ok so i have still not been able to come up with a specific "idea" for this build. I had originally thought that this build would be more of a passive style, and be able to match terran and just sit back- while you can mass expo.
However you guys have shown me that perhaps this build does not function like this at all. It seems that everyone has come to the consensus that- even though you have a high production rate, and you can build units faster than T- that the thought of killing the T mid-late game ball is not viable. Even though you can/should be able to throw waves of units at this attack. (which i had hoped originally would be enough to stall him long enough to get defilers/ultra?) If this is the case, then perhaps this build should be looked at from a new point of view?
Does anyone have any idea of how this build may be used as a timing attack? or COULD you use this build as a timing attack?
Another idea i was thinking of today, was- what if this build was merely used as a stall tactic. While stalling go for mass expos, gas and then transition to lurker? Or perhaps this build could stall for mass expo and SUPER FAST hive-with ultra to compliment?
Basically i am asking all of these questions, because i don't have a computer with SC- so i cannot try and test each of these ideas out. I am asking you the TL community what do you think of the viability of the above posted. Perhaps this "Cocaine Style" shouldn't be a game style- just more of an opener- or early game mindset if you will. After the "Cocaine BO" you could (possibly) transition to something more standard? *I'm hoping at this point* that Cocaine has given you the early game map control, thus allowing for a transition into standard play, because of your mass expos, and your good production- you should be able to go anywhere from here? (hell even mass muta lol)
@ Mora- well you have been around the scene for awhile, longer than i have. In fact you are the only "older/experienced" eye looking at this build- attackzerg and superior wolf as well. Chill seemed to have "accepted" this as not pure lunacy, however he hasn't made any comments/suggestions/replays- so i guess he has already written this off. idk I just like hearing from people with more experience/expertise than me giving this build criticisms.
As for people that are taking the time to play this build- First off *round of applause* Thanks for wasting you time to write/play and critique this Bo. I cannot thank you enough. But remember that your not going to be macro/microing this build perfectly the first or even tenth time you play it. (remember when you were still trying to learn 3hatch muta?) I have / had a bit of a head start on everyone with this Bo- but with my computer gone, not really anymore. I remember when i first started playing this BO, from the more recent times. My supply count got higher and faster the more times i tried the build. Try to keep in mind that you are playing a brand new Bo- with which you have no experience, while your T opponent is playing something they have repeated hundreds if not thousands of times.
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
Well, you can just broodling the tanks....
I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army.
I'm guessing you didn't have proper experience with queens. Nothing is stopping you from going round the back. Just get the tanks. It's much more worth it. Bio units cost little and broodlings may die easily upon spawning. So, if your broodings failed, at least you got a tank. And besides, one would rather ensnare on bio units which this guide is focused on.
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil.
If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.)
Well, you can just broodling the tanks....
I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army.
You get more mobility with the queen, so unless T has just about perfect control of their ball, you should be able to snipe the tank (scouting depending)
2 other ideas- If/when T decides to move out, you might want to think about countering the nat. You can broodling any tanks that are helping to defend, and the whole point of this is your army is more mobile. You might be able to snipe the nat cc (map dependent), and then you only need to worry about the ball.
The other idea is that lurkers technically do splash, not higher dps. Ideally, you would have enough gas for both broodling (getting the tank) and lurkers (killing m/m). It looks like the decision of which to get first is going to depend on (just to name a few): Number of tanks T has (more tank=broodling), number of m/m (more m/m=lurk), skill of the players (Lurks are better at a lower level, higher level players spread better, how many hydra you have (more hydra makes it easier to get lurks), how many queens you have (more queens=more broodling=less tank/medic), etc. Interestingly enough, what map you're on has just about the least effect- Narrow corridors are good for tanks and for lurkers, so you need to look at tank/marine/your army composition more.
Ohh by the way (sorry I totally missed this) This man has some GOOD ideas. So people you know what to do! Pick it apart- see if anything here is usable.
My take on the matter:
Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.) However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab. And if the T decides to split his forces (perfect for us) we can destroy his army at both ends. If the T keeps going for our nat, with our high mobility we should be able to create a perfect flank- with him trapped in the middle of our natural choke.
Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time. however in the off chance that you don't looking at army composition is a great idea (that i never thought of) Basically this- if you see 2fact, or heavy tank- go broodling, and snipe the tanks. If you don't see 2fact or heavy tank- upgrade lurker and integrate a few into your army to deal with the increased M&M
Firstofall, I will not give up this build before I see it failing in a replay (AttackZerg??).
I played the build again yesterday, unfortunately against two really weak opponents, so they are not representative (hence I do not post them). At least I gathered more experience:
Broodling is not viable. Even when I was 3 bases ahead, had 6 queens fully charged (with energy upgrade), the spell is simply too costly to clear out enough tanks from a defending position, especially as there is no relevant tank splash with marines nearby killing the broodlings at once.
Using infested terrans is fun! But does not help much.
2nd gas should be up latest (situation permitting) when nat is saturated with drones (i.e. build it while last batch of drones for nat is making)
my current gas list: carapace, ling speed, lair, den, queens nest/hydra range, melee (in second evo)/hydra speed, 2 queens, ensnare, further upgrades, hive, adrenalin, misslie (3rd evo), OL speed, ultra. Why the earlier ling speed? To be able to defend T's early pushes while the other tech is researching. I feel having the other tech a bit earlier does not help much as it also takes time to get at least 2 control groups of hydra/ling together to benefit from it.
Defending drops was not a problem for me (someone said hydra/ling was to weak to defend 7 marines + medic), as I leave 1 queen at home, and together with the freshly produced units there, beating the ensnared drop was straightforward (I have good upgrades).
I hope I will be able to play against a better opponent soon, so I can post a replay. In the meantime. I watched Too_MuchZerg's replay:
Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion)
But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends.
He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally.
What I noticed:
Too much gas, not enough minerals. You failed to drone saturate your 3rd properly. That cost your macro significantly.
You made way too many early lings. That too cost your macro signifcantly. If you had invested those mins into economy, you'd have been more ahead (i.e., make a 4th, or another evo)
You made queens too late, and were not able to use ensnare when T moved out with his ball at 11:00. Your flanking was (as you said yourself) bad, consisted essentially of pure hydra, while you simultaneously wasted all your lings trying to crack his bunkered nat in a backstab attempt.
at 13:00, you take out his second ball, again without using ensare, and having no lings in your mix. You succed, although with higher losses than needed. Then you lose your units trying to crack his nat (again).
After that you switch to ultra/ling. Despite no proper flanking, not using more than 1 Ensnare the whole game, you win :-)
They way I see this build, you should always attack with a mix of hydra AND ling (I use mixed control groups to ease that); and you should NOT recklessly attack the T's nat (or any fortified position you cannot flank).
I found containing works well (providing enough open space in front of the T to be able to flank nicely), while abusing map control.
Final random thoughts:I presume the build can me made more effective if you succeed in faking a 3 hatch muta. The idea would be to place 3rd hatch "hidden" within main, and to place the initial evo/queen's nest there, and buying a decoy spire right after lair.
The problem is getting rid of T's scout (with slow lings) for this to work of course. Also, the decoy spire slows down the build, but would be well offset by the T making less tanks (which is what you want), and building turrets.
BTW you could then still go muta later, I just wondered how it would be if T had to defend his main vs. muta harass with ensnared m&m :-)
On October 30 2008 16:28 Misrah wrote: Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.)
Read my other post, broodling just does not work, and is not available before you'd get to ultras anyway.
However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab.
I disagree. T can either raze your base faster than you can raze his (again, you cannot flank when going for his nat, you are not beeing terribly effective), or pincer you between his nat defenses and his ball, then you're fucked.
Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time.
The way it went for me, when I had the gas to support lurkers in addition to hydra/ling, I had enough to transition to ultra anyway. Currently (in want of better opponents) large tank numbers where the only problem, and lurkers wont help there.
for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote: for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain!
So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras.
Didn't the T have vessels out already? What would be the point of burrow at that point? I'm not saying it's bad, earlier burrow might make a difference when trying to flank/crush his first group, but at the stage of the game it seems kinda pointless.
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote: for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
Ultra ling is definitely the preferable tech choice IMO. + defiler if you can afford it of course. One of the nice benefits of this build is the super fast double ups you get, making ultra crack that much more effective at that point in the game.
On October 30 2008 16:28 Misrah wrote: Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.)
Read my other post, broodling just does not work, and is not available before you'd get to ultras anyway.
However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab.
I disagree. T can either raze your base faster than you can raze his (again, you cannot flank when going for his nat, you are not beeing terribly effective), or pincer you between his nat defenses and his ball, then you're fucked.
Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time.
The way it went for me, when I had the gas to support lurkers in addition to hydra/ling, I had enough to transition to ultra anyway. Currently (in want of better opponents) large tank numbers where the only problem, and lurkers wont help there.
The countering response is the easiest- You should only do it if the time is right/T doesn't have enough forces to defend his natural. The way zvt usually progresses is that right after T moves out, T only leaves 2 firebats on the ramp (1 rax cc build), or a control of m/m to defend his natural (all depending on how T is playing). If this occurs, you should try to snipe the natural with your higher mobility, and then run away to fight another day. Getting up the ramp is a real pain, and you're right, you can't flank when running into the nat. Try not to get caught in between the ball and the forces in his nat/main. That would suck. But, scouting dependent, T might make a mistake that you should be able to exploit with your mobility.
If you go into a base razing game...well first of all, you should be able to reproduce units faster, throw up sunkens, etc. Second of all, obviously this should be prevented, but you can't theory out a counter for every single thing. I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I guess the dps argument would be that since you're producing higher dps units, you should be able to kill his buildings faster, and you should have more expansions, so T needs to move his ball further. Just for fun, on python at this point (first control group after 1 rax cc), you should have a third expansion just starting, or possibly up and running that he's going to try to take down first. If you have enough hydra to snipe the 2 firebats at his ramp, you take down all of his scv's @ his natural, possibly take his ramp, and have 3 sunkens morphing by the time he gets to your nat. Just one possible response, but at this point in the game (~40 supply for both? something like that) builds don't help that much.
Moving onto the broodling: I think that you could only use broodling if you have the right number of queens to support it (and the apm to do it). The idea would be that it slows down ultra tech (more queens=more gas), but it allows you to retain map control (faster movement, makes lurkers much more effective). I think at this point in the build, you're making a lot of game time decisions, so general analysis won't help.
Remember that the idea of this build is to expand faster to force T to move out. If you have enough gas for enough queens and lurkers, you should probably be thinking about dark swarm, which is still lategame z's best friend. dark swarm > tank+m/m.
The weird thing about this build/idea is that it's highly dependent on what kind of game you're trying to play. If you kill the first T ball, that's great, you can either expand so that you have more forces, or tech so that you have dark swarm/ultras faster, or upgrade so that your units have more killing power. Is T going 2 fact tank? change your army composition so that you have more lings to get to the tank, make sure that you have a good flank, and you should still be able to kill the first ball. You actually still have a choice after you kill the ball- you can stay on lair tech (lurker/ling/scourge/hydra/queen off of hopefully 4 base at this point) or you can tech to hive, and hopefully expand again.
The transition from early game to midgame is actually easier in this build (lurk/ling/queen), and it lets you take midgame as late as you want. The transition into endgame is easy as well, because you already have the queens nest. The question that still needs to be worked out is when to transition into hive tech, such as dark swarm. I think that there are no easy timings for this build, and much less of an idea of when you can expand.
This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain!
So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras.
Didn't the T have vessels out already? What would be the point of burrow at that point? I'm not saying it's bad, earlier burrow might make a difference when trying to flank/crush his first group, but at the stage of the game it seems kinda pointless.
The reason you use burrow is because the science vessels can irradiate your hydras during battle. The hydras clump together when they attack, so the irradiate harms many hydras at once. Essentially, the effect is similar to storm.
You can burrow the infected hydra so that it doesn't kill the whole group.
I'm going to try out some variants of this strategy. I like the idea of using queens more and more. As I try it out, I'll post up some reps. I'm not very good at all though (D+), but hopefully I can reveal some strengths/weaknesses of the build.
I've always been a huge fan of ensnare + lurkers. At this point in the game, 10-11 years out, m&m micro has evolved so much that offensive lurkers do nothing unless you have an incredible flank and time your movements and burrows just right. Even then, Terran's are very adept at minimizing lurker damage. Ensnare and lurkers just seem to go together, as ensnare takes away m&m's ability to snipe a lurker, and quickly back off before lurker spines do any damage. I'd really like to see a SKZerg-style of play, with a growing cloud of queens ensnaring m&m and broodling'ing tanks, transitioning into a properly microed massive mid-game army of ling/hydra/lurker/scourge/queen and doing some real damage. In addition, queens are advantageous targets for irradiate, as they only cost 100 gas, compared to 125 gas lurkers, 150 gas defilers, and 200 gas ultras. Essentially, you get more mileage out of your gas if Terran keeps irradiating queens as opposed to other units.
It all sounds good on paper, but so far queens have been underused, and most strats involving them have failed. Maybe we can one day turn this theorycrafting into a viable strat.
This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain!
So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras.
Didn't the T have vessels out already? What would be the point of burrow at that point? I'm not saying it's bad, earlier burrow might make a difference when trying to flank/crush his first group, but at the stage of the game it seems kinda pointless.
The reason you use burrow is because the science vessels can irradiate your hydras during battle. The hydras clump together when they attack, so the irradiate harms many hydras at once. Essentially, the effect is similar to storm.
You can burrow the infected hydra so that it doesn't kill the whole group.
just focus firing your irad'd hydra and killing it is alot better imo.
if you burrow 1 hydra that means that one of your hydras in your control group is burrowed, which means you can't attack-move with that control group anymore. additionally, the hotkey is 'u' - which - at least for me - is a bitch to press in the middle of battle (i hate lurkers. lol). and burrow costs money. killing it is just as fast if not faster. G_G
the more i think about it the more i think broodling won't work too well. your queens should never be sitting at full energy.
... if the T ball moves out and you can't crush it then, you could counter the nat instead ...
If the nat is completely undefended then this is obviously the way to go. But if it has even a single control group of marines/meds sitting at it, i'd highly advise against it.
The whole idea behind this strategy is to 1) maintain map control to allow you to mass expand. and 2) put the T in a position where everytime he moves he has a chance of falling out of position.
By countering his nat you don't achieve either of these things. Sure, you might hurt his econ a little - hell you might hurt his econ a lot - but if it costs you 1/3rd of your army or more, you've effectively lost the ability to crush the T ball if it moves out of position, and you've lost map control.
One of the weaknesses of this strat is that unless you have his army severely outnumbered, your army composition is useless. Without lurkers for high damage splash, the chance of taking a T ball that is sitting outside your choke is impossible.
You should never give up middle-map control with this build.
However, i think that counter-drops would be a great alternative to countering the nat. You don't have to drop a huge amount of units (even 16 lings is good enough). Since you have queens you can assist your drop with one of them and ensnare any troops that are en-route back to base to defend it. You can also perhaps snipe the CC and steal it with your queen (not that u want the infested cc, it just takes out the cc that much faster - a 700dmg cc-specific nuke, if you will). It also have have a psychological benefit on your opponent as well. By using drops (and ensnare to make them that much more effective) your opponent may be put on tilt - he may recklessly start to move his Ball into the middle without giving it much thought. This is exactly what we want.
But where to fit in overlord speed/drops? hard to say. Probably after hive since crackling tech is way more solid/consistent than harrass/drops. So this would be more of a mid-late game transition tactic.
... since you have extra gas, why not make lurkers? ...
in the mid-late game this is not a bad idea. If the T has managed to secure 3 bases, and you have 4-6, i would say it would be a great idea to make some lurkers for a) defense (from drops or on ramps), and b) adding them to your own drops. But i don't think they are a good addition to the army composition. At this stage in the game you have tons of macro to maintain, you have queens that you need to micro, you have defilers that require you to baby-sit (and have 3 different abilities that will need consistent use), and you have more than 10 control groups of shit in the middle of the map. Throwing in a unit that needs to be well-positioned and needs to burrow is asking alot. It would be asking alot even for the multi-tasking of a zerg-bisu.
Any earlier than the mid-late game and i think the gas is completely wasted. You want 6-10 queens; you want hive tech and defilers as fast as you can; you [may] want a spire to counter vessels with scourge; or if not that, you will want to spend the extra gas on extra filers to make up for the ones that will inevitably be lost to irad; you'll want ultras (and many of them) to be the much-needed tanking unit to allow your lings/hydras to have enough time to damage the T. "extra gas" is a fraudulent term.
How will this build work on maps where the Terran can secure a third expansion? I'm talking about a map with a min-only like Andromeda and Medusa.
If I have understood this build correctly, the essential idea is to have the whole map under control and the Terran sort of contained. By contained, I mean that every time Terran moves out, his army is attacked and Terran never reaches the point where he can pump out so much marimedi that he can steamroll the Zerg. And while this is not cost effective for the Zerg, the Zerg player only needs to buy time for his mass expansion Ultraling.
The idea is to keep Terran at main + natural.
Also, OP, when are you getting your comp back... it's been such a long time...
i tried to try the build, but i coudnt. First time i tried i faced a much better opponent. He gone one base and attacked me with some rines and an scv cousing economycal demage, than soon with 2 medics a bat and cuple rines, yet again forcing me to give up some of my economy, so i barely got my first hydras out, no ensnare yet and he came with a larger ball and destroyed me.
Second time, one base opening once again, this time mech, or at least it looked like. I made hydras so i denied his early vultures, than he massed wraith so i got to give up map control, i've got only a mineral only +my nat and tried to establish another base, however i had nt too much profit from it. He got early on siege tanks so he secured his base and his nat against my possible hydra counter. He kept harasing me with wraiths, killing up my overlords, drones, queens. i ensnard the wriaths build a spore or two here and there, picked up some of his wraiths but he really had an easy job pullin back above the cliffs, since my hydras coudnt really fin the path between my numerous buildings. He made up an army of siege tanks, vessels and mnm, and rolled me over, i hadnt too much ensnare because of the wraiths, my upgrades werent bad but my army size was poor bezuse i had to replace drones, and overlords continously and spend on static defence too (spore colony)
Third game, guess what happened, one base tech. yet he faked a FE this time, walling himself in at his nat and producing a couple rines. I took my 3th in order to keep up with the non-existent fast expantion of the T, who made dual-fact, an add-on researched vulture speed, came out with 4-6 vultures, i barely had a few hydras becuz of my 3th expo, and killed up half of my drones, stopped mining etc. I started to mass drones and units, however he pulled out with siege tanks and a few goliaths, vultures and desroyed me.
So i coudnt find out how this works against standard builds like 1 rax FE, fantasy build (without fake FE!!) or 2-3 rax pushes. I may try furhter on tough, but one thing pisses me off on iccup that i keep meting people with 200+ apm up to 400 at D, D+, C- level. Ok they spam and everyhing, still, you cant spam a 15 min long game and still win.
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
Misrah should be proud, his build is used all around the world
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
So did you win?
or at least record a rep?
well I won, but didn'T save the rep. This game was on python, me 12, he 3 o'clock position. Basically he couldn't get the build work at all, he said he was doing it for the first time.
I played standard 1 rax FE. When I scanned no spire, I built one more bunker and I moved out with 1 firebat, 11 marines , 4 medics to pressure. Meanwhile I scouted his expansion to the right bottom corner, so I went there with the group, there were some sunkens there and I saw mass hydras, so I didn't attack the expo just stood on that ramp thing on bottom right, but he couldn't kill even that little group with mass hydras. A bit later I moved out with 2 control mm with a LOT of medics and 3 tanks 1 vessel, sieged his natural and gg. He ensnared my marines but it basically didn't do anything as I was already standing in his door. I guess this works very poorly on close positions. So if you scout the terran with your first ovi, don't do this build!
Ok first off- holyshitsuddenmasslongpostwithrepscan'tkeepup!!! But this is a good thing!
First off thank you all for wasting more of your time on this build, either through critique, or replays. you have no idea how great-full I am.
Also SHOUT OUT goes to Rucky: Specific thanks because now i can actually see other peoples game play, instead of just reading about it. But now I'm going to have to pick apart your build (nothing personal of course. )
Ok so basically my critique of Rucky's play:
1. Hatcheries: Ok i cannot stress how important mass hatching is with this build. The build idea is to make mass low tier units, QUICKLY in order to do so you are going to need mass hatcheries. in the early game, all minerals should be going to drones and hatcheries. If you need to save up for a second or two to get 300 minerals do it. (Remember 4 hatch before gas) The slight lapse in production will more than make up for its self in the long run. Try to not make any sunkens or lings in the early game. Remember this build is all about trying to squeeze out every second of time terran is willing to give you, so your econ and production can be that much stronger. Ideally when T is makes his first "baby push" with a handful of rines and 1-2 medics, you should only start producing a counter attack when you see them move out. (hopefully you have enough hatches where you can suddenly switch from drone mass to hydra/ling mass for a short while- and with these units kill of the push) You don't want to have a mass of units sitting and waiting for the baby push to come. Basically why build the lings now, when your not going to need them till later?
2.Expanding! Your natural expo comes at 12 hatch, and people have suggested that your 3rd (i say min only because it is less predictable) expo should happen with your 4th hatchery- at 16-18. After this point, you can make 1-2 more hatches in your main- but other than that, you should ALWAYS have an expansion going somewhere on the map. If you decide to not take your 3rd expo with your 4th hatch then, when you do finally expo- don't take your gas first!!! remember this build is very mineral intensive. You want MANY hatcheries, and MANY drones (both of which cost minerals) so your booming econ can quickly mass low tier ground units. Also, don't forget to transfer your drones to your new expos. More minerals you have mining = the more efficient you can become. With this build, over saturation is possible, and is something that you should try and avoid.
3. Drone Whoring- simply enough, when you win a battle- make more drones for a second, when you see that terran is expanding, make more drones, in the early game make as many drones as you can (or that you feel safe with. remember the more drones that you have early game, the easier mid/late game will be) Once again, mass hatch comes into play- because if you have 5-8 hatch and you all tell them to make drones that is 15 drones straight up- very quickly. After wards go straight back to pumping low tier ground units.
4. Attacking: Ok well rucky- I have to say that you did take care of his ball (kind of) if it wasn't for your fast hive rush i don't think you would have been able to have held out. On the other hand tho, your initial battle could have gone over soooo much better. While you did get the ensnare off, you failed to have your army move in at the same time. Don't send them in bit by bit- you want a wave of units to come in all at once, maximizing your surface area. Also you could have waited until terran was more in the open (considering that you were playing on python) i would think that it would have been better to attack when his back wasn't against the wall.
other than that, i have to say that (considering this is your first or so time playing this build) you did well! You won! lol
On October 30 2008 16:28 Misrah wrote: Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.)
Read my other post, broodling just does not work, and is not available before you'd get to ultras anyway.
However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab.
I disagree. T can either raze your base faster than you can raze his (again, you cannot flank when going for his nat, you are not beeing terribly effective), or pincer you between his nat defenses and his ball, then you're fucked.
Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time.
The way it went for me, when I had the gas to support lurkers in addition to hydra/ling, I had enough to transition to ultra anyway. Currently (in want of better opponents) large tank numbers where the only problem, and lurkers wont help there.
Well i have one thing to say: Your right on all accounts.
I had doubted the queen play (like i have said- never tried it before) The countering, is so situationally dependent that i am not going to count it out- I never meant that you should ALWAYS go for this type of maneuver- i just thought that everyone should realize that this is indeed an option.
Now that i think about it, what would i rather have- a luker? or an ultra. For some reason I'm just going to go with my gut and say ultra? Indeed i agree once again that getting that fast hive should be the focal point of this build, and i think is a much better "waste" of gas.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote: for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
As for this idea- any thoughts? Right now I am leaning towards, I love this idea? but who knows.... Seems like a much better counter to SK than going fast ultra no?
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote: for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
village_idiot & Conquest101 obviously think this idea is no good- any collaborators here? once again- I/We/this build needs GROUP opinion and experience.
Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion)
But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends.
He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally.
What I noticed:
Too much gas, not enough minerals. You failed to drone saturate your 3rd properly. That cost your macro significantly.
You made way too many early lings. That too cost your macro signifcantly. If you had invested those mins into economy, you'd have been more ahead (i.e., make a 4th, or another evo)
You made queens too late, and were not able to use ensnare when T moved out with his ball at 11:00. Your flanking was (as you said yourself) bad, consisted essentially of pure hydra, while you simultaneously wasted all your lings trying to crack his bunkered nat in a backstab attempt.
at 13:00, you take out his second ball, again without using ensare, and having no lings in your mix. You succed, although with higher losses than needed. Then you lose your units trying to crack his nat (again).
After that you switch to ultra/ling. Despite no proper flanking, not using more than 1 Ensnare the whole game, you win :-)
They way I see this build, you should always attack with a mix of hydra AND ling (I use mixed control groups to ease that); and you should NOT recklessly attack the T's nat (or any fortified position you cannot flank).
I found containing works well (providing enough open space in front of the T to be able to flank nicely), while abusing map control.
Final random thoughts:I presume the build can me made more effective if you succeed in faking a 3 hatch muta. The idea would be to place 3rd hatch "hidden" within main, and to place the initial evo/queen's nest there, and buying a decoy spire right after lair.
The problem is getting rid of T's scout (with slow lings) for this to work of course. Also, the decoy spire slows down the build, but would be well offset by the T making less tanks (which is what you want), and building turrets.
BTW you could then still go muta later, I just wondered how it would be if T had to defend his main vs. muta harass with ensnared m&m :-)
Ok once again, yet another good idea- going for a fake 3hatch muta, but then some time during the late game going for a quick 12-14 muta ball (with queen) and infesting their CC? ideas? Thoughts?
My opinion: Candidly- i don't think you are going to have the minerals, or gas to make your "fake muta rush" Also think of it this way, if terran spots your spire- they are going to get turrets, and all of those things. They will defiantly use less tanks, and have less rax. I agree with this. But once again it all falls back on, if your wasting the money/time/drones to build spire- dose terran lose the same for reacting to the spire? On the same note- going for a mid-late game 12-14 muta ball into their main, and infesting their CC would be EPIC so idk.
On October 31 2008 03:16 village_idiot wrote: How will this build work on maps where the Terran can secure a third expansion? I'm talking about a map with a min-only like Andromeda and Medusa.
If I have understood this build correctly, the essential idea is to have the whole map under control and the Terran sort of contained. By contained, I mean that every time Terran moves out, his army is attacked and Terran never reaches the point where he can pump out so much marimedi that he can steamroll the Zerg. And while this is not cost effective for the Zerg, the Zerg player only needs to buy time for his mass expansion Ultraling.
The idea is to keep Terran at main + natural.
Also, OP, when are you getting your comp back... it's been such a long time...
Ahh well *hopefully* next weekend i should have it back in my dorm. once again i am sorry- I promise to start pulling my weight around here once i get my computer back. In the mean time thanks again guys for taking up my slack.
As for the 3 base, well you can Instantly secure your third, and have 3 min patches- and you don't have to defend any more expos. The increased mineral patches means that your high rate and heavy saturation of drones will be even more efficient. It will take terran more time/ resources to get his third CC- if he choses this route, he is giving zerg more time, for more expos.
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
Misrah should be proud, his build is used all around the world
Well hey- don't forget you guys have all played a part in this too- so I defiantly shouldn't be the only proud one. I just brought you guys a steaming pile of crap. TL community has shaped it into something beautiful- and possibly something deadly!!! Gogogogog TL group project "Cocaine Style"
But on another note it looks like our T friend crushed him so a lose much sadness for the swarm!
... if the T ball moves out and you can't crush it then, you could counter the nat instead ...
If the nat is completely undefended then this is obviously the way to go. But if it has even a single control group of marines/meds sitting at it, i'd highly advise against it.
The whole idea behind this strategy is to 1) maintain map control to allow you to mass expand. and 2) put the T in a position where everytime he moves he has a chance of falling out of position.
By countering his nat you don't achieve either of these things. Sure, you might hurt his econ a little - hell you might hurt his econ a lot - but if it costs you 1/3rd of your army or more, you've effectively lost the ability to crush the T ball if it moves out of position, and you've lost map control.
One of the weaknesses of this strat is that unless you have his army severely outnumbered, your army composition is useless. Without lurkers for high damage splash, the chance of taking a T ball that is sitting outside your choke is impossible.
You should never give up middle-map control with this build.
However, i think that counter-drops would be a great alternative to countering the nat. You don't have to drop a huge amount of units (even 16 lings is good enough). Since you have queens you can assist your drop with one of them and ensnare any troops that are en-route back to base to defend it. You can also perhaps snipe the CC and steal it with your queen (not that u want the infested cc, it just takes out the cc that much faster - a 700dmg cc-specific nuke, if you will). It also have have a psychological benefit on your opponent as well. By using drops (and ensnare to make them that much more effective) your opponent may be put on tilt - he may recklessly start to move his Ball into the middle without giving it much thought. This is exactly what we want.
But where to fit in overlord speed/drops? hard to say. Probably after hive since crackling tech is way more solid/consistent than harrass/drops. So this would be more of a mid-late game transition tactic.
... since you have extra gas, why not make lurkers? ...
in the mid-late game this is not a bad idea. If the T has managed to secure 3 bases, and you have 4-6, i would say it would be a great idea to make some lurkers for a) defense (from drops or on ramps), and b) adding them to your own drops. But i don't think they are a good addition to the army composition. At this stage in the game you have tons of macro to maintain, you have queens that you need to micro, you have defilers that require you to baby-sit (and have 3 different abilities that will need consistent use), and you have more than 10 control groups of shit in the middle of the map. Throwing in a unit that needs to be well-positioned and needs to burrow is asking alot. It would be asking alot even for the multi-tasking of a zerg-bisu.
Any earlier than the mid-late game and i think the gas is completely wasted. You want 6-10 queens; you want hive tech and defilers as fast as you can; you [may] want a spire to counter vessels with scourge; or if not that, you will want to spend the extra gas on extra filers to make up for the ones that will inevitably be lost to irad; you'll want ultras (and many of them) to be the much-needed tanking unit to allow your lings/hydras to have enough time to damage the T. "extra gas" is a fraudulent term.
Mora- with your argument against lurkers, i have to agree. Cannot argue with the logic of the argument. TOO MUCH APM. i have in my above post, come around to the idea of throwing out lurkers (minus a few lategame for defense of expos) to fast ultra. Once again, if you can make it to late game with this build your economy is so insane and your production so crazy that anything is possible.
I love this build late game- Ultra ling? Sure then- Mass muta? ok mass hydra? Drops? Man terran is just not going to be able to keep up! (hopefully)
On October 31 2008 04:12 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:
On October 31 2008 03:53 village_idiot wrote:
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
So did you win?
or at least record a rep?
well I won, but didn'T save the rep. This game was on python, me 12, he 3 o'clock position. Basically he couldn't get the build work at all, he said he was doing it for the first time.
I played standard 1 rax FE. When I scanned no spire, I built one more bunker and I moved out with 1 firebat, 11 marines , 4 medics to pressure. Meanwhile I scouted his expansion to the right bottom corner, so I went there with the group, there were some sunkens there and I saw mass hydras, so I didn't attack the expo just stood on that ramp thing on bottom right, but he couldn't kill even that little group with mass hydras. A bit later I moved out with 2 control mm with a LOT of medics and 3 tanks 1 vessel, sieged his natural and gg. He ensnared my marines but it basically didn't do anything as I was already standing in his door. I guess this works very poorly on close positions. So if you scout the terran with your first ovi, don't do this build!
Who ever played you just needs to practice more. How many times have you used 1rax FE? Do you remember how bad you were when you first tried it?
Remember guys/gals this is your first few or firs few dozen times playing a build. Your not going to get it right, it's not going to be perfect. Don't forget that you are playing people who have used a BO (like 1 rax FE) and practiced this build hundreds if not thousands of times!!
actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
I love this build late game- Ultra ling? Sure then- Mass muta? ok mass hydra? Drops? Man terran is just not going to be able to keep up! (hopefully)
It seems to me like when this build hits late game, zerg has the option to do any build with the insane economy. So, the main point to have this build successful is to get to late game.
The question is! Will mass hydra-ling with ensnare support be enough to hold off until late game? We'll know later with more gaming.....go game!
tru that- but considering that you were getting hive play at about 8:40 zerg may be able to make late game come faster than normal. The question is, (and i feel that this will become easier/faster the more you play the build)- how many hatches/drones do you have at this time? I figure that if you can get a "critical mass" of hatch this is going to be hilariusly funny. To try and watch terran fight back when zerg has high production and hive play.
On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote: actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter.
I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings?
I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU.
I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.
On October 31 2008 08:10 Misrah wrote: tru that- but considering that you were getting hive play at about 8:40 zerg may be able to make late game come faster than normal. The question is, (and i feel that this will become easier/faster the more you play the build)- how many hatches/drones do you have at this time? I figure that if you can get a "critical mass" of hatch this is going to be hilariusly funny. To try and watch terran fight back when zerg has high production and hive play.
hmm....
the hive should come much later.
at 8:40 it is not possible to have 3 bases, 7 upgrades, 6 queens, 4-5 groups of units, and hive tech. nope!
Ohh- about that. Just commenting on Rucky's youtube video. He gets a crazy fast hive, after semi spoiling terrans mid game 3tank 1 vessel push.
Mora, would you agree that hive timing is game dependent? i daresay- that the longer you could delay hive, the more powerful your economy and production rate could become. So- if you are a good player- you should be able to forgo hive play till you hit full fledged Cocaine style zerg. At which point, you switch to Hive and transition into Dopamine style zerg. Just imagine it! The fully upgraded ultras, the sudden mass muta blobs, the drops- the.................... everything.
Ohh for anyone that cares: I have selected a piece of music that fits perfectly into this play style:
I'm really thinking that standard Lurk/Ling with one queen might be better. Under ensnare, it really maximizes the lurker effect with splash. Hydras are good too (plague + hydras = one hit kill from range = ownage)
On October 31 2008 11:47 Pokebunny wrote: I'm really thinking that standard Lurk/Ling with one queen might be better. Under ensnare, it really maximizes the lurker effect with splash. Hydras are good too (plague + hydras = one hit kill from range = ownage)
Lurk/ling dosen't really work out in the open- T's micro/spread is just too good, even with slowed down marines. And firebats break the dps lowering that we're trying to achieve (against lings).
I've noticed that this build can counter any unorthodox build from terran. If terran goes fe or fantasy build, this build just goes crazy, because there's not pressure from terran early on. This build definitely rapes the mech builds. I played one game, where i was vulture dropped and gol dropped, and i easily defended with hydra-ling. Then with my 5 hatches, i just mass units and a-move.
The weakness to this build is usually early game. 1 base multirax builds or sunken break builds are really hard to deal with though since they will have a quick sizable army before ensnare and before hydras are fully upgraded. With the right m&m micro, the game could end right there for zerg. If you put up sunkens and mass lings at the natural, you'll be contained. If you have other expansions they will be as good as dead.
So how can this coke build beat the 1 base multirax? A good flank? seems to me like when the m&m are well positioned and stim, lings just die. How to survive until ensnare and hydras are ready?
On October 31 2008 16:16 Rucky wrote: I've noticed that this build can counter any unorthodox build from terran. If terran goes fe or fantasy build, this build just goes crazy, because there's not pressure from terran early on. This build definitely rapes the mech builds. I played one game, where i was vulture dropped and gol dropped, and i easily defended with hydra-ling. Then with my 5 hatches, i just mass units and a-move.
The weakness to this build is usually early game. 1 base multirax builds or sunken break builds are really hard to deal with though since they will have a quick sizable army before ensnare and before hydras are fully upgraded. With the right m&m micro, the game could end right there for zerg. If you put up sunkens and mass lings at the natural, you'll be contained. If you have other expansions they will be as good as dead.
So how can this coke build beat the 1 base multirax? A good flank? seems to me like when the m&m are well positioned and stim, lings just die. How to survive until ensnare and hydras are ready?
Everyone might be looking at this the wrong way. As you said, this build is good and against mech/tech builds, and arguably good against FE. However, there is no one ultimate build, so this build's weakness might just be 1 base multirax/sunk break builds. Period. So if you scout/think a T is doing this, do some other build?
well every build has a weakness. So look at it this way, so does the multi rax sunken breaks. You just need to find away to get to the sunken break weak point- no economy. If you can turtle up- and either teck to lurkers, or get muta- you can counter attack terran. His economy and teck will be very low, so either of these two units can really do it for you. You can't wait to long because then his econ will catch up to yours as well. So you need to push out before this happens. Basically- you should be able to see a sparkys push coming from a mile away. If you can survive the initial attack, the game will be heavily in your favor. Your production and economy will be far superior.
On October 31 2008 11:27 Misrah wrote: Ohh- about that. Just commenting on Rucky's youtube video. He gets a crazy fast hive, after semi spoiling terrans mid game 3tank 1 vessel push.
i just watched the game. my thoughts:
This wasn't the strategy discussed on here at all. This was 2base fast hive tech. We can discuss the merits of such a strategy in a different thread. In the meantime i am going to imagine accurate situations relative to the general pacing of this game and cocain zerg.
what the terran should have done differently:
The terran made tons of turrets when there were no muta coming. That money could have been spent on making his mid-early game army bigger.
If you're not going muta, the terran should contain you as soon as possible with his initial group of marines while scouting for an expo. Once he finds expo he should take his containing army and attack it.
I do think it is possible to produce an army during this time period in order to save your expo - but this puts your drone production on hold; in the meantime the Terran economy is still escalating. This is the most crucial part of the build (and what i believe to be the absolute most difficult part of the build: you must switch between economy and army production at the exact right times. Any error on this front will either lose you the game or put you significantly behind an opponent who has equal macro.
Based on the pacing of the game, the following thoughts were provoked.
The nucleus of the strategy resides on responding to Terran movements and Terran production - or, in practical terms: precise scouting.
The Early Game
Scouting
- with overlords (including sacrificing them to do so) as required.
- Perhaps getting burrow to allow lings to sit in key locations before vessels are out
- Using lings to constantly monitor the size of his mobile force
The Zerg needs to entice the Terran out of his base as early as possible. You want to keep his army count down as much as possible - which means luring him out when you're army can beat it. - The zerg may do this by expoing agressively. The timing of when you build your army to defend your agressive expoing is crucial which you depend on scouting to indicate.
- The zerg may want to show hydra tech to entice the Terran to try to contain. By getting lings out before his contain moves into place, and again massing at the right time (as soon as he starts moving) you can pincer his attack in your choke point.
- The zerg may - though risky - mass units early game and feign an attack on the terran losing a control group-ish amount of lings and retreating. If he takes the bait you slay his army. If he doesn't take the bait you've taken a major econ hit.
- "Defenseless overlords" - by placing an overlord in his choke as bait, and a 2nd overlord within sight range of that overlord, he may try to kill both the defenseless ovies. If he goes for the second overlord, he's lost his army. This obviously suffers the same problem as above - if he doesn't take the bait, and you've produced an army that can kill him if he does, you're behind in econ.
The Mid Game
Assuming that you've played the early-mid game correctly the terran has been bitten at least once, and should be a little wary to move out.
- He should be nearly done solidifying his first Ball, and is getting ready to move out. Alternatively, your econ should be up and kicking and you're now focusing on massing an army.
- This is when your queens will come into play (so you better have some). The second he moves out you ensnare him and wait for him to either a) move out of position and you rape his ass (again), or b) remain passive and attempt to secure an expansion - You won't be able to stop him from taking a close expansion (unless of course he moves out of position to do so - which was option a from the point above.) That's fine though - you're expanding and teching.
Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
If you've been successful thus far, the Terran is reluctant to move out until he feels confident that the quantity of his units makes up for their lack of mobillity. The whole point of this stage of the game is to stall for hive tech.
- Somewhere inbetween Mid and Late game you will want to start integrating drops. These will help hurt his macro and keep him on tilt. If you take out a few structures or force him to retreat with part of his army, he may become restless with his Ball and want to counter attack moving himself foolishly out of position. Remember to use your queens to ensnare the incoming base-liberators for extra psychological effect!
The Late Game
The strongest part of this strat is the late game. You've controlled the map which has allowed you to obtain many expansions. You're tech is at the highest tier and just needs fleshing out where needed. Your macro has been in full force for quite some time, and if you've managed to survive this long then you've bared your teeth and bitten him on a few occasions.
- You should have defilers out and in position to use dark swarm as needed. Plague should be researching.
- You'll want to grab lurker tech for easy defense. You'll want to throw down a spire for scourge. You'll want to be throwing down an ultra den (the bigger your advantage in economy, the sooner you should have ultras. if your economy is not significantly ahead, defilers are much more integral to your arseanl. Do not forgo defilers/plague in lieu of ultras.
- Don't forget your queens. Even if you're spending your mana on MASS parasiting to keep your scouting up (and him busy curing it) or saving your mana on your 12 queens to broodling-massacre his tanks, your queens are an awesome boon in any battle.
On October 31 2008 16:16 Rucky wrote: The weakness to this build is usually early game. 1 base multirax builds or sunken break builds are really hard to deal with though since they will have a quick sizable army before ensnare and before hydras are fully upgraded. With the right m&m micro, the game could end right there for zerg. If you put up sunkens and mass lings at the natural, you'll be contained. If you have other expansions they will be as good as dead.
This build is not made to counter 1base Terran. In that case you could do many things (what do you normally do against 1base T? do that. lol)
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote: for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
As for this idea- any thoughts? Right now I am leaning towards, I love this idea? but who knows.... Seems like a much better counter to SK than going fast ultra no?
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote: for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
village_idiot & Conquest101 obviously think this idea is no good- any collaborators here? once again- I/We/this build needs GROUP opinion and experience.
[/QUOTE]
also remember, a crit mass of hydra will totally nullify vessel and thus less gas for defilers.
On October 31 2008 03:16 village_idiot wrote: How will this build work on maps where the Terran can secure a third expansion? I'm talking about a map with a min-only like Andromeda and Medusa.
If I have understood this build correctly, the essential idea is to have the whole map under control and the Terran sort of contained. By contained, I mean that every time Terran moves out, his army is attacked and Terran never reaches the point where he can pump out so much marimedi that he can steamroll the Zerg. And while this is not cost effective for the Zerg, the Zerg player only needs to buy time for his mass expansion Ultraling.
The idea is to keep Terran at main + natural.
Also, OP, when are you getting your comp back... it's been such a long time...
mass drop on back door. in ando, at the power gens, and behind the temples on medusa, map control willing of course
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
Misrah should be proud, his build is used all around the world
I played this build yesterday afternoon with a friend, intending to post a replay. I cannot, I have to say, as I played terribly :-)
After the first game, a guy observes us talking about the past game, and asks if he can obs us. We agree, and the moment I lay down the queen's nest, he asks, "And, ist this the Misrah build?" :-))
Real fun, on the other hand he recognized me from this thread which was somewaht awkward as I played so terrible :-)
On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote: lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz. It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras. chat: - well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens? - yes it is >.<
Misrah should be proud, his build is used all around the world
I played this build yesterday afternoon with a friend, intending to post a replay. I cannot, I have to say, as I played terribly :-)
After the first game, a guy observes us talking about the past game, and asks if he can obs us. We agree, and the moment I lay down the queen's nest, he asks, "And, ist this the Misrah build?" :-))
Real fun, on the other hand he recognized me from this thread which was somewaht awkward as I played so terrible :-)
On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote: actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter.
I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings?
I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU.
I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.
i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option.
However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote: actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter.
I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings?
I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU.
I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.
i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option.
However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
Just post the build ffs?
I doubt you'll somehow make ZvT magically harder with your build, since it's 99.999999999% likely it's something that's been done/is done.
Ok well, just some of my thoughts, the zvp version, lings and mutas seems rather normal. Can be countered with archons etc..
but the ZvT idea sounds interesting, I often do this zvt version for my zvp. Minus the queens generally. Although I could see the concepts behind this build working, I've used queens before and I do understand how they fare. The hatchery count makes it interesting. I think it would be rather hard to really maximize the econ being that hydras and lings are soo cheap, like late game.
I find a problem where what happens when T has a really large army of mnm and rolls over your army once or twice, making you having to replenish, although fast, it seems really difficult for one to match a large mnm force. I think it's really easy to lose most your army due to a small micro error, without taking out much of terran. Like in lurker ling zvt, lurkers can still hold back t after losing your force a few times, where as hydra ling may not..
Also I see a weakness to the power of upgraded tanks vs even your max upgraded units. For example w hat do you do against Blue storm zvt, where t takes the half of the map with the ramp. It seems almost impossible to break that with pure hydra ling. (ok queen broodling would be hot, but that seems rather hard to do, queens melt so fast to mnm and the 150 energy..)
It's going to be hard killing dropships with a later or nonexistent spire. Especially if your forces are out of position. Something like a double dropship, can really be hard to deal with.
As you said they should be used to trade armies, and in order to do that you have to stay outside your base. Sure good scouting etc.. can counter that. I'm just saying ling hydra may have some problems when you're caught out of position.
On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote: actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter.
I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings?
I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU.
I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.
i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option.
However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
Just post the build ffs?
I doubt you'll somehow make ZvT magically harder with your build, since it's 99.999999999% likely it's something that's been done/is done.
it's possible that it has been done before, but since it's isnt my build i wont post. Altough i dont think this BO existed, because it's a variation of another build. Like fantasy is a variation of the vulture into goliath+tank.
EDIT: sry if i rised your interest, forgot about it.
On October 31 2008 11:27 Misrah wrote: Ohh- about that. Just commenting on Rucky's youtube video. He gets a crazy fast hive, after semi spoiling terrans mid game 3tank 1 vessel push.
i just watched the game. my thoughts:
This wasn't the strategy discussed on here at all. This was 2base fast hive tech. We can discuss the merits of such a strategy in a different thread. In the meantime i am going to imagine accurate situations relative to the general pacing of this game and cocain zerg.
what the terran should have done differently:
The terran made tons of turrets when there were no muta coming. That money could have been spent on making his mid-early game army bigger.
If you're not going muta, the terran should contain you as soon as possible with his initial group of marines while scouting for an expo. Once he finds expo he should take his containing army and attack it.
I do think it is possible to produce an army during this time period in order to save your expo - but this puts your drone production on hold; in the meantime the Terran economy is still escalating. This is the most crucial part of the build (and what i believe to be the absolute most difficult part of the build: you must switch between economy and army production at the exact right times. Any error on this front will either lose you the game or put you significantly behind an opponent who has equal macro.
The nucleus of the strategy resides on responding to Terran movements and Terran production - or, in practical terms: precise scouting.
The Early Game
Scouting
- with overlords (including sacrificing them to do so) as required.
- Perhaps getting burrow to allow lings to sit in key locations before vessels are out
- Using lings to constantly monitor the size of his mobile force
The Zerg needs to entice the Terran out of his base as early as possible. You want to keep his army count down as much as possible - which means luring him out when you're army can beat it. - The zerg may do this by expoing agressively. The timing of when you build your army to defend your agressive expoing is crucial which you depend on scouting to indicate.
- The zerg may want to show hydra tech to entice the Terran to try to contain. By getting lings out before his contain moves into place, and again massing at the right time (as soon as he starts moving) you can pincer his attack in your choke point.
- The zerg may - though risky - mass units early game and feign an attack on the terran losing a control group-ish amount of lings and retreating. If he takes the bait you slay his army. If he doesn't take the bait you've taken a major econ hit.
- "Defenseless overlords" - by placing an overlord in his choke as bait, and a 2nd overlord within sight range of that overlord, he may try to kill both the defenseless ovies. If he goes for the second overlord, he's lost his army. This obviously suffers the same problem as above - if he doesn't take the bait, and you've produced an army that can kill him if he does, you're behind in econ.
The Mid Game
Assuming that you've played the early-mid game correctly the terran has been bitten at least once, and should be a little wary to move out.
- He should be nearly done solidifying his first Ball, and is getting ready to move out. Alternatively, your econ should be up and kicking and you're now focusing on massing an army.
- This is when your queens will come into play (so you better have some). The second he moves out you ensnare him and wait for him to either a) move out of position and you rape his ass (again), or b) remain passive and attempt to secure an expansion - You won't be able to stop him from taking a close expansion (unless of course he moves out of position to do so - which was option a from the point above.) That's fine though - you're expanding and teching.
Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
If you've been successful thus far, the Terran is reluctant to move out until he feels confident that the quantity of his units makes up for their lack of mobillity. The whole point of this stage of the game is to stall for hive tech.
- Somewhere inbetween Mid and Late game you will want to start integrating drops. These will help hurt his macro and keep him on tilt. If you take out a few structures or force him to retreat with part of his army, he may become restless with his Ball and want to counter attack moving himself foolishly out of position. Remember to use your queens to ensnare the incoming base-liberators for extra psychological effect!
The Late Game
The strongest part of this strat is the late game. You've controlled the map which has allowed you to obtain many expansions. You're tech is at the highest tier and just needs fleshing out where needed. Your macro has been in full force for quite some time, and if you've managed to survive this long then you've bared your teeth and bitten him on a few occasions.
- You should have defilers out and in position to use dark swarm as needed. Plague should be researching.
- You'll want to grab lurker tech for easy defense. You'll want to throw down a spire for scourge. You'll want to be throwing down an ultra den (the bigger your advantage in economy, the sooner you should have ultras. if your economy is not significantly ahead, defilers are much more integral to your arseanl. Do not forgo defilers/plague in lieu of ultras.
- Don't forget your queens. Even if you're spending your mana on MASS parasiting to keep your scouting up (and him busy curing it) or saving your mana on your 12 queens to broodling-massacre his tanks, your queens are an awesome boon in any battle.
The rest is up to you!
See mora, this is why I need people like you, superiorwolf, and attackzerg, giving me criticisms. You guys can take everything i try and say-mix in your experience, condense it, and make it sound so much better. Thanks! :D
I am just going to try and re-iterate, or something to that effect.
The Cocaine style is all about playing risky, and till the last second. In the early game, every single drone you can produce without having to build an army is going to help you that much more. Not building any attacking units till you absolutely have to is also something that is going to put you farther and farther ahead. Getting as many expos as fast as you can, fully saturated will put you farther and farther ahead.
The difference between a chobo and gosu playing this strat is this: The chobo will make more attacking units, at times he doesn't need them. So that way, he can feel more secure, and ready when the T pushes. In the short term- the chobo is secure and has produced an army. However in the long term he is making the strongest part of this build (the late game) weaker and weaker. The gosu player, through proper scouting, game sense and understanding the timings of zvt will make less attacking units. The gosu will only dedicate himself to building attacking units when the time is absolutely necessary. The gosu player in doing this will help this build get to it's strongest point- late-game faster, and with a higher economy. If this is the case, all is lost for the T player. Because there is no way he would be able to come back from such a large economic deficit.
On another note- Attackzerg and superiorwolf: Where are you? I miss your battle reports. It makes my day far less entertaining
On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote: actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter.
I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings?
I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU.
I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.
i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option.
However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
Geo.Rion, I really think you're being very snotty and acting like you know the answer to TvZ. If you're going to act like you have the perfect build, why not let us know? Your reasoning is really bad imo
On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote: actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter.
I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings?
I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU.
I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.
i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option.
However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
Geo.Rion, I really think you're being very snotty and acting like you know the answer to TvZ. If you're going to act like you have the perfect build, why not let us know? Your reasoning is really bad imo
i would underline once again one of my statements " Of course this build as every other may have his counter too"
And i also apologized for rising the interest for no reason. And no, i don not know the answe for TvZ. I said only that there is a build which would be quite good against this one, and i prefer to use it vs anythin. For others 9pool in Zv anythink, may be the perfect opening no matter what, for others the fast nexus/cc and so on... It's a buld that siuts me, forgot about it, i regret telling what i told
Misrah I think you should update OP with what Mora wrote x) This is awesome!
@Mora
Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
What do you think about few lings (6-8?) at places where T can drop to scare it out or intercept it (when Dropship starts unloading)?
Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
What do you think about few lings (6-8?) at places where T can drop to scare it out or intercept it (when Dropship starts unloading)?
Absolutely. I would probably have a mobile group of units in place for anti-drops in each 'main' (able to run to the expo if that's the direction the drop is headed.) You can't have too many of these groups though as you need as many units controlling the mid as possible.
Another cute trick that i've seen are 6-8 hydras waiting to intercept incoming drops - except that they're burrowed. You pop up just as he hovers over your hydras and you've completed raped his plan! he can't even escape with his ship to try a 2nd attempt!
It really is all about scouting though. you have many ways to effectively deal with drops - but you need to know when they are coming and where they are going first.
Updates complete. Mora i hope you don't mind- that i put your work on the OP. Pm if you don't like it or whatever.
As for the rest of you-
I would also like to update and start keeping a library of replays using this build. I will of course be updating the library frequently with my own replays (once i can start playing ). If you would like your replays added to the Op to start the "Cocaine library" please let me know.
Now only if some great zerg player would post- CHILL, INCONTROL where are youuuuuuuu?
On November 01 2008 06:35 freelander wrote: this is rather lame from you..
anyway not every build has a counter. the builds which are called standard don't really have any counter.
On November 01 2008 06:35 freelander wrote: this is rather lame from you..
anyway not every build has a counter. the builds which are called standard don't really have any counter.
standard builds are the easiest to counter. They don't have preticular weaknesses bot they are predictable. There are so many builds that counter let's say 3 hatch muta, that it hurts. Lomo wraiths are disegned against it, a dual port wraith with buyin a drophsip instead of the 4th wraith, and many many others. Like fantasy build, if you dont have hydras against vultures, you're in a pretty deep shit. 2 sunks may not be enough, they hardly cover the mineral line. So i should say "this is rather lame from you.." And the point i was trying to make, and you apparently ignore it, is that i don't see this build becoming the recplacment of 3 hatch mutas, but it may become a viable build, so i really apretiate all those peoples who are working on it, i tried to help by telling my experiences so far, when i was going for this.
I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
On November 02 2008 02:45 Superiorwolf wrote: I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
Finally your back!
4 hatch pool? lol and you live. Nice play there. As for the drops- i think that you bring up a good point superiorwolf. if your natural is cliffable or not is a big deal and i think that we should look into this problem. i think that we should instead go for drops, and simply drop our units onto our cliffs to handle any cliffing. I prefer this method to getting a spire because then, with drop teck you should also be able to use it for harassing their bases as well. On the other hand tho, getting a spire is faster, but is it more effective? I think that getting 12-14 muta here and there and then running to their main or nat CC with a queen and infesting it would be epic. So idk. What do you think guys? Getting drop teck? or Spire? Of course this argument is totaly pointless on maps that don't have a cliffable nat or main.
You also found a use for infested terrans? lol <3 infested terrans. Sounds like a nice game superior!
On November 02 2008 02:45 Superiorwolf wrote: I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
On November 02 2008 02:45 Superiorwolf wrote: I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
I quite agree with the use of the queen. There are many uses for queens in the game that are not used often because they are expensive, but in one game a wek ago (pvz) I was doing a standard corsair rape when instead of going hydras or spore colonies, my opponent went queens and scourges, thus raping my corsairs. (Slow corsairs suck) Then I sent in my dts, which were thus detected by queens. I began to think about this strategy in general. If a queen can ensnare critical units (Scivessels) this slows the terran army as a whole and thus allows the zerg to better time a push. Queens however were most used effectively in a game I saw around a month ago within which was one of the best moves I have ever seen. The zerg player allowed the terran to go through a choke near his base but then countered with his lurkers. As the terran attempted to retreat, the zerg player brooded the rear marines and ensnared the mass, slowing and walling the group. Chaos ensumed. The queens then preceded to aid in a lurker drop. (I was estatic) The zerg player dropped 2 lurkers after brooding a tank and then ensnared the workers to allow lurkers burrow time. Pwnage ensued. Sorry that I cant provide replays as Ive been cleaning them out recently due to file space. (Having played for 9 years means I have to many replays)
Warning, very low level play, i did not use the BO properly, my Den was way too late, and i got ultra den befor defilers, cuz i felt uncomfrtable with the hydraling+swarm, cuz it may turn out to nullify your hydras.
The difficulties i expereinced: the vulnariblity of the expoes, because he knew i had no spire he was confident on running out with dual Dropships, i cannot afford to make defences great enough to take down a group of 16 mnm. I could protect my main with a few stratigicly placed hydras, and some troops rallied at my nat, ready to rush back to main and defend. I tried to intercept his DSs i made a semi-ring around his base but he did not run in it.
I had plenty of gas, but i really was low on minerals, i wasnt producing enough drones maybe, but idk, i felt i have many...
The other great problem was, when my hive tech kicked in he gathered a huge number of vessels, and i was low on hydras cuz i wasnt reproducing them, keeping money for the ultras. I coudnt mass confortably ultras, cuz they were vulnarable to irradiate, so i had to make some more hydras, and still did not seal this problem. Luckily he couldnt hold my 10+ ultras massling under darkswarm so i broke in and win.
Once again, this is very low level play, i wasn't microing as well as i could, not talking about other mistakes, and my opponent was bad too.
As is said, it's a low-level play so don't make fun of it. If you're much better than me and can't tolerate noobs, dont watch it.
This build isn't really any one predefined build order. It's more of a new way to play ZvT. Instead of a lurker ling midgame, you play a mass hydra ling midgame, but you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing. Like if he's relying heavily on drops. I'd probably get a spire no matter what after my first queens are out, since that's probably about when dropships/vessels will make an appearance. I would imagine, since you aren't getting lurkers, that after you get all your needed tech (hydra upgrades, melee/carapace, queen's nest + ensnare + queens) that you would start having a glut of gas anyway.
Thank God- at least someone understands this build idea gogo conquest101
Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
About the spire, no i don't place one in my build order- but that doesn't mean that you can't get one. I just leave it out because not getting the spire can streamline your economy for mass drone and hatchery production.
@ Conquest101 and Geo.Rion
You shouldn't have an excess of gas at any point in this build order. I have stated before and i will again- This build is very expansive and mineral intensive. Your going to need more minerals to facilitate your mass. Don't forget this, and the gas excess shouldn't be a problem.
On November 05 2008 01:20 Conquest101 wrote: This build isn't really any one predefined build order. It's more of a new way to play ZvT. Instead of a lurker ling midgame, you play a mass hydra ling midgame, but you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing. Like if he's relying heavily on drops. I'd probably get a spire no matter what after my first queens are out, since that's probably about when dropships/vessels will make an appearance. I would imagine, since you aren't getting lurkers, that after you get all your needed tech (hydra upgrades, melee/carapace, queen's nest + ensnare + queens) that you would start having a glut of gas anyway.
Sort of true, but in all the replays I've seen this way of playing relies heavily on strong economy which requires a weak early game. You have to mass drones and make a lot of hatcheries. The zerg is very weak in the beginning and no doubt Terran players can see plenty of timing windows when Z is using this unperfected BO.
I just wonder if you could transition into this way of playing using 3hatch muta. Doing some muta harassment while doing the upgrades you need for the hydraling+queen army.
On November 05 2008 02:17 Misrah wrote: Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
I think you're seriously overestimating the power of your hydra against drops. The best way to get rid of drops is to detect them and scourge them. You need a large amount of hydras to kill 2 dropships of marimedi and you can't have that kind of force at every expansion, while simultaneously containing terran.
And I can't believe you're suggesting killing vessels with hydra. You have to keep the vessel count low for the ultras that are about to come. At the very least you have to have a spire up when you transition to ultras or they will all get irradiated.
On November 05 2008 00:16 village_idiot wrote: What's with people not building a spire when using this build?
You need to keep the vessel count low for your ultras and to intercept dropships.
Also... I hope I'm mistaken, but..
Geo.Rion, do you use hotkeys?
As is said, it's a low-level play so don't make fun of it. If you're much better than me and can't tolerate noobs, dont watch it. I will add this to my post too, i tought it's obvious. Idk why do you try to seem cool by asking "do you use hotkeys", everybody uses, even 40 APM players who don't know any bo or tactic. A lot of people spam and if you see their apm distribution it's 40-50% hotkey. I use hotkeys as much as my level of play requires. I hope you're happy.
Hmm, I'm mainly a toss player but IMO {{enter Q word here}} would probably work better vs Protoss... 1 good ensnare on a group of Zeals would cause some havoc...
On November 05 2008 01:20 Conquest101 wrote: This build isn't really any one predefined build order. It's more of a new way to play ZvT. Instead of a lurker ling midgame, you play a mass hydra ling midgame, but you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing. Like if he's relying heavily on drops. I'd probably get a spire no matter what after my first queens are out, since that's probably about when dropships/vessels will make an appearance. I would imagine, since you aren't getting lurkers, that after you get all your needed tech (hydra upgrades, melee/carapace, queen's nest + ensnare + queens) that you would start having a glut of gas anyway.
Sort of true, but in all the replays I've seen this way of playing relies heavily on strong economy which requires a weak early game. You have to mass drones and make a lot of hatcheries. The zerg is very weak in the beginning and no doubt Terran players can see plenty of timing windows when Z is using this unperfected BO.
I just wonder if you could transition into this way of playing using 3hatch muta. Doing some muta harassment while doing the upgrades you need for the hydraling+queen army.
On November 05 2008 02:17 Misrah wrote: Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
I think you're seriously overestimating the power of your hydra against drops. The best way to get rid of drops is to detect them and scourge them. You need a large amount of hydras to kill 2 dropships of marimedi and you can't have that kind of force at every expansion, while simultaneously containing terran.
And I can't believe you're suggesting killing vessels with hydra. You have to keep the vessel count low for the ultras that are about to come. At the very least you have to have a spire up when you transition to ultras or they will all get irradiated.
We have had this discussion about this exact "problem" before on this forum- at the moment i am constrained for time, so i cannot pull the exact discussion. However it has been said by people that have played this build, that drops were no problem, and just having a group of ling/hydra at their main was more than enough to deal with drops. The people that have played this build did not find drops to be a huge problem. Drop ships hold- 6marines and 2medics. Wimpy, a small group of ling and hydra can take it down. Also you can ensnare/parasite the drop ships to make them even easier to kill. If you would take the time to read some of my and others posts, i don't think that the drop ship argument is really as potent as you think. As far as detecting the drop ships- Overlords, and lings in key routs are all your going to need. You have a fast moving hydra/ling army, you can get anywhere you need to be before the drop is going to do any significant damage. And if you get more lucky, you can ensnare and then chase down the drop ships.
Science Vessels- Once again you have a concern that hydra cannot kill vessels? Don't forget that you will have many many queens out by the time terran is producing vessels. Hydra rape vessels. Coupled that with the fact that the vessels will be ensnared- the vessel count should never become dangerous.
Also transitioning to hydra ultra is also a fine idea, i have said before that you are going to need to keep producing hydra all the way into the late game and beyond- to deal with vessel numbers.
Also you comment about using muta to keep that terran off balance- with macro whoring. Think about it- that is what is being done right now. Zerg is using the mutalisks to give the appearance that they control the map. When in actuality it's all smoke and mirrors. Muta cannot fight M&M head on- they get raped. Your just not going to have the economy, and spending all of that extra money on the muta, i just don't see it working. Normally when your playing 3hatch muta- you use that bit of time to get lurkers out, so you can effectively fight the terran push. Basically, muta just are not going to buy you the time.
On November 05 2008 02:17 Misrah wrote: Thank God- at least someone understands this build idea gogo conquest101
Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
About the spire, no i don't place one in my build order- but that doesn't mean that you can't get one. I just leave it out because not getting the spire can streamline your economy for mass drone and hatchery production.
@ Conquest101 and Geo.Rion
You shouldn't have an excess of gas at any point in this build order. I have stated before and i will again- This build is very expansive and mineral intensive. Your going to need more minerals to facilitate your mass. Don't forget this, and the gas excess shouldn't be a problem.
I understand the idea, but pulling it off perfectly is difficult. As has been mentioned many times before, you require a large number (almost excessive) number of drones off 2 (later 3) bases in order to facilitate a proper hydra/ling pump AND get all upgrades + queens. The 1 time I tried this build (turned out to be a crappy game as I was way better than my opponent), I DID have a glut of gas. Why? Because I couldn't pump enough drones in the early-mid game. I basically played as if I were facing a better opponent and tried to have enough units at proper times to repel a competent terran attack. IE, first M&M group with 2 medics, first "ball" with vessel, etc. This made it difficult to get the needed drone saturation. I dunno, maybe my BO needs work. I may have gotten my 2nd gas too early as well.
Some refinements may be in order, to try to save larvae/resources. Some things to consider: Would getting 1 (or more?) sunkens at any point actually be a good idea? 1 sunken makes a HUGE difference when facing that first mm group for example. You could build that one sunken and get more drones instead of lings. You also don't necessarily need to flank that first group either as it's small army vs small army.
Delaying hydra range? Not sure what I'm thinking here exactly. The idea being that you NEED speed but don't necessarily need range until you need to attack. So range after queen's nest, or maybe even after ensnare. You get faster queens/ensnare, they finish at the same time, you delay/dodge major engagement until both are ready. Dangerous though.
Also, at what time does that first MM group move out? On 1 base and after FE. It's important to know, because if you do, you can use that to tinker with your early game. Basically test out just how many drones you can whore before you absolutely HAVE to pump units. Adjust build for more drones. Also if you can get away with 3 hatch before pool, I would imagine that would make a huge difference. I don't play T really so T_T.
Crap, was meant to be an edit. I'm an idiot. Read on.
Also, I do believe a spire is necessary. Hydraling is mobile sure, but it's NOT any faster than lurkerling is normally. I don't believe that leaving a group of hydraling in each main is a good answer either. You can't really rely on being able to snipe the dropship with hydras. Scourge are just infinitely better at that. Also, you can't realistically snipe vessels DURING the engagement with MM/the ball so you will be suffering irradiates/d-matrix which is bad. The whole ensnared vessel thing only comes into play after the battle, and only if you win. That's why I think scourge at that point is much better. You can flank and surround, you don't need to micro lurkers etc, so it's easier to clone in a bunch of scourge and rape vessels as you engage.
About the build, i am not able to give you a specific writeup because right now i am looking/writing these response in between my classes. But i would like to try to once again address some of your concerns.
I have stated before that this build does play on a risky scale. If you look back farther into this thread and read some of my/ other peoples criticisms and thoughts on this build- i would believe that you would be able to find enough evidence to place some of your misgivings at ease. Getting more drones isn't a problem, because you are going to have 4 hatch before gas, and many many more on the way. I specify that any time you can save for 300min and get a hatchery you should do so. Also placing your 4th hatchery at a 3rd expo (preferably min only) would help to dramatically increase your mining efficiency. Not to mention the fact that because you are producing so many hatcheries you should ALWAYS have an expo going up somewhere on the map. Drone whoring with this build is faster than your standard 3 hatch simply because i have more hatcheries with which to produce more drones.
About sunkens- the reason why sunkens are not a good idea with this build is because you don't want to get contained in any of your bases. Getting contained defeats the purpose of this build entirely. So try and save the money and drone and instead get a zergling or hydra.
About your comments on the sci vessels: your giving the terran to much credit. This build moves quite rapidly into late game play, and considering the fact that you have so many hydra roaming about, the vessels simply are not an issue. Same goes for the drop ship play. Hydra/ling is so much faster than lurk ling speed wise, they are not even comparable.
I would suggest that you go and test this build out. Mass game, play many opponents and really try and see if your theory's are correct. From what i have read/seen from others and my self- some of your arguments are just not as valid as you may believe.
I'm not sure how this build gets around the fact that Lurkers > Marines. I think the only victories garnered with this build will simply be from the Zerg player simply outclassing an inferior Terran player. I would love to see a Zerg only go hydras and ling against me. As long as the upgrades stay close, you're not building anything that counters Marines until Hive tech. So that means...
I can just focus on macro until I am ready to kill you. (I don't have to worry about lurkers sneaking up and killing an idle group of marines, or a lurkling all-in. I don't have to worry about muta harrass or fast guardian tech.) In other words, you just can't threaten the Terran base or army without a lot of work. So, essentially you're giving up the mechanics advantage to the Terran.
I would be willing to test this out with anyone. I am a very average Terran player.
The idea of this build is this: Lurker > Marines, but with good terran players, lurkers do virtually no damage. Hydra-ling < Marine and Medics, but with UPGRADES and HIGH production it is more likely that Hydra-ling = Marine Medics. The point is to have a huge economic lead while trading off your army with their army. If it is successful, zerg can rebuild army faster than terran can.
What I have been reading is people who follows this build dead on without changing up when the terran changes. Also, people seem to think that hydras are being overestimated against drops and sci vessels. What i think is that people are underestimating the queen. If you're going to upgrade the queen, you're not just going to build one! Queens are fast! I like to use them to scout terran's base and given that they won't build turrets because there are no mutas or lurkers, you can know exactly when terran builds a sci vessel. Here you have to change it up and put down a spire. For better players, I think it was possible to do without a spire, since yes hydras can't be everywhere and it would be stupid to put them at every base. But with queens, you can use them as spotters and ensare/parasite dropships or vessels. If you know where they are headed, you can intercept with hydras. If you ensnare them and slow them down, you can run hydras in to snipe.
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.
For me: I usually get a 3rd base with my 3rd or 4th hatch before gas like the Misrah said. I try to build a versatile army quickly (get speed for lings) and run around both 3rd base and nat and try to attack when terran is moving. With 3 bases, minerals flows in fast.
Personal Experiences: 1)Terran only irradiate hydras which is funny to laugh at when they only cost 75/25. you don't have anything expensive for them to irradiate. 2)When attacking terran's natural, with hydras you can actually snipe the ledge seige tanks when they fire at you. With a lurker ling army, blocked ramp and ledge seige tanks will kill your attack. This is mid-game before swarms. 3)Right after i trade armies successfully, I just mass units from 5-6 hatches and a-move ftw. If they lose their army they lose the game, because they can't produce as fast. 4)Aggravate before battle. I use hydra range and speed to attack m&m then run away repeatedly before a battle so that medics would use up a lot of their energy. Hopefully all... 5)Battling. From having my army wiped out so many times, i learned that you should attack with hydras first. (i send lings in they all die and hydras don't have enough dmg to kill m&m while they're being healed) Hydras tank, Lings kill! Terran can micro and change targets to lings, but they'll lose time since their units move slower with ensnare.
I just want to say this build is not perfect and will not work every game versus every build. Since the converse of what i said is also true. If zerg can't successfully trade armies and their army keeps getting bigger, zerg has a high chance of losing, unless zerg gets to hive tech.
Most problems with this build is defending the early push from terran when zerg is drone whoring. Even with Misrah saying to not build sunkens, IF you're going to LOSE then POP those sunkens UP. if you get the sunkens right before they attack your natural, and assuming you've been drone whoring before getting those sunkens, your economic advantage is already secured! Let's say terran has the biggest possible early push like 1 base multirax. If you can defend with 4+ sunkens and mass lings from your hatch, then you won the game. Think if you're at an advantage to begin with, if you survive you win. (unless they're just wayyyyy better than you)
I'll end this on a negative note that this build totally fails if you are contained.....................SAD
Isn't this the zerg version of 3 Nexus before gate.... *cue spirit toss*
Would someone try the 4hatch mass drone into muta-ling/lurk-ling/ling-all-in? I suspect in absence of early pressure in the form of marine+scv rush, it might work better than 3hat muta anyways.
I strongly suspect it is the econ that is floating this build alive. An extra expo early on is HUGE and I'm not so sure about the hydra-ling combo that has gotten pwned big time in history.
On November 05 2008 12:43 Rucky wrote: The idea of this build is this: Lurker > Marines, but with good terran players, lurkers do virtually no damage. Hydra-ling < Marine and Medics, but with UPGRADES and HIGH production it is more likely that Hydra-ling = Marine Medics. The point is to have a huge economic lead while trading off your army with their army. If it is successful, zerg can rebuild army faster than terran can.
What I have been reading is people who follows this build dead on without changing up when the terran changes. Also, people seem to think that hydras are being overestimated against drops and sci vessels. What i think is that people are underestimating the queen. If you're going to upgrade the queen, you're not just going to build one! Queens are fast! I like to use them to scout terran's base and given that they won't build turrets because there are no mutas or lurkers, you can know exactly when terran builds a sci vessel. Here you have to change it up and put down a spire. For better players, I think it was possible to do without a spire, since yes hydras can't be everywhere and it would be stupid to put them at every base. But with queens, you can use them as spotters and ensare/parasite dropships or vessels. If you know where they are headed, you can intercept with hydras. If you ensnare them and slow them down, you can run hydras in to snipe.
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.
For me: I usually get a 3rd base with my 3rd or 4th hatch before gas like the Misrah said. I try to build a versatile army quickly (get speed for lings) and run around both 3rd base and nat and try to attack when terran is moving. With 3 bases, minerals flows in fast.
Personal Experiences: 1)Terran only irradiate hydras which is funny to laugh at when they only cost 75/25. you don't have anything expensive for them to irradiate. 2)When attacking terran's natural, with hydras you can actually snipe the ledge seige tanks when they fire at you. With a lurker ling army, blocked ramp and ledge seige tanks will kill your attack. This is mid-game before swarms. 3)Right after i trade armies successfully, I just mass units from 5-6 hatches and a-move ftw. If they lose their army they lose the game, because they can't produce as fast. 4)Aggravate before battle. I use hydra range and speed to attack m&m then run away repeatedly before a battle so that medics would use up a lot of their energy. Hopefully all... 5)Battling. From having my army wiped out so many times, i learned that you should attack with hydras first. (i send lings in they all die and hydras don't have enough dmg to kill m&m while they're being healed) Hydras tank, Lings kill! Terran can micro and change targets to lings, but they'll lose time since their units move slower with ensnare.
I just want to say this build is not perfect and will not work every game versus every build. Since the converse of what i said is also true. If zerg can't successfully trade armies and their army keeps getting bigger, zerg has a high chance of losing, unless zerg gets to hive tech.
Most problems with this build is defending the early push from terran when zerg is drone whoring. Even with Misrah saying to not build sunkens, IF you're going to LOSE then POP those sunkens UP. if you get the sunkens right before they attack your natural, and assuming you've been drone whoring before getting those sunkens, your economic advantage is already secured! Let's say terran has the biggest possible early push like 1 base multirax. If you can defend with 4+ sunkens and mass lings from your hatch, then you won the game. Think if you're at an advantage to begin with, if you survive you win. (unless they're just wayyyyy better than you)
I'll end this on a negative note that this build totally fails if you are contained.....................SAD
You're giving up pressure on Terran which allows him to macro as you are trying to do. So, you're both high on productions and Terrans always get upgrades. Both equal. I guess I don't see how adequate Terran macro loses to this build.
Unfortunately this Terran goes mech instead of m&m, so we don't get to see ensnare/hydra/ling go up against the ball, but hey, they're right there before your very eyes: QUEENS.
This terran is no chump either, I'd say at least C level
EDIT: wow this is exactly how to play ZvT against mech with queens:
1) fast hydras + fast upgrades (move/speed/attack/carapace) 2) expo all over the map (5 bases by the 11-minute mark) 3) fast queens (fast enough so that the queens have 150 energy to broodling the tanks by the time terran comes with first push) 4) queens broodling tanks, hydras clean up the gols 5) super fast hive for quick defiler teching (although he didn't even really need them LOL)
On November 05 2008 12:43 Rucky wrote: The idea of this build is this: Lurker > Marines, but with good terran players, lurkers do virtually no damage. Hydra-ling < Marine and Medics, but with UPGRADES and HIGH production it is more likely that Hydra-ling = Marine Medics. The point is to have a huge economic lead while trading off your army with their army. If it is successful, zerg can rebuild army faster than terran can.
What I have been reading is people who follows this build dead on without changing up when the terran changes. Also, people seem to think that hydras are being overestimated against drops and sci vessels. What i think is that people are underestimating the queen. If you're going to upgrade the queen, you're not just going to build one! Queens are fast! I like to use them to scout terran's base and given that they won't build turrets because there are no mutas or lurkers, you can know exactly when terran builds a sci vessel. Here you have to change it up and put down a spire. For better players, I think it was possible to do without a spire, since yes hydras can't be everywhere and it would be stupid to put them at every base. But with queens, you can use them as spotters and ensare/parasite dropships or vessels. If you know where they are headed, you can intercept with hydras. If you ensnare them and slow them down, you can run hydras in to snipe.
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.
For me: I usually get a 3rd base with my 3rd or 4th hatch before gas like the Misrah said. I try to build a versatile army quickly (get speed for lings) and run around both 3rd base and nat and try to attack when terran is moving. With 3 bases, minerals flows in fast.
Personal Experiences: 1)Terran only irradiate hydras which is funny to laugh at when they only cost 75/25. you don't have anything expensive for them to irradiate. 2)When attacking terran's natural, with hydras you can actually snipe the ledge seige tanks when they fire at you. With a lurker ling army, blocked ramp and ledge seige tanks will kill your attack. This is mid-game before swarms. 3)Right after i trade armies successfully, I just mass units from 5-6 hatches and a-move ftw. If they lose their army they lose the game, because they can't produce as fast. 4)Aggravate before battle. I use hydra range and speed to attack m&m then run away repeatedly before a battle so that medics would use up a lot of their energy. Hopefully all... 5)Battling. From having my army wiped out so many times, i learned that you should attack with hydras first. (i send lings in they all die and hydras don't have enough dmg to kill m&m while they're being healed) Hydras tank, Lings kill! Terran can micro and change targets to lings, but they'll lose time since their units move slower with ensnare.
I just want to say this build is not perfect and will not work every game versus every build. Since the converse of what i said is also true. If zerg can't successfully trade armies and their army keeps getting bigger, zerg has a high chance of losing, unless zerg gets to hive tech.
Most problems with this build is defending the early push from terran when zerg is drone whoring. Even with Misrah saying to not build sunkens, IF you're going to LOSE then POP those sunkens UP. if you get the sunkens right before they attack your natural, and assuming you've been drone whoring before getting those sunkens, your economic advantage is already secured! Let's say terran has the biggest possible early push like 1 base multirax. If you can defend with 4+ sunkens and mass lings from your hatch, then you won the game. Think if you're at an advantage to begin with, if you survive you win. (unless they're just wayyyyy better than you)
I'll end this on a negative note that this build totally fails if you are contained.....................SAD
You're giving up pressure on Terran which allows him to macro as you are trying to do. So, you're both high on productions and Terrans always get upgrades. Both equal. I guess I don't see how adequate Terran macro loses to this build.
Once again if you would read the rest of this thread, you would find that this plays perfectly into my build philosophy. Zerg shouldn't have to harrass terran, terran should harrass zerg. Think about it- zerg produces faster, and can grow the fastest economy. Zerg can produce a numnericaly superior army faster than any other race. This build tries to ecentuate the zerg race characteristics to the fullest.
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.
say it in a cocky way "let's see who wins in the end ;P" *big smile*
I was saying this in an obvious way that of course zerg can macro and grow faster than terran can...zerg is like a exponential function to terran's power function. (sorry about the math, i'm mathy) So if terran doesn't care and macros safely zerg will go out of hand. Terran has to do something and Zerg's job is to defend. As i said earlier, if zerg can defend, zerg will win with the economic advantage.
Zerg numbers may grow faster, but Terran grows into critical mass.... Traditional muta play uses aggression to precisely limit terran size. Of course, stupid T that kills their own force early makes no difference.
Zerg probably have the weakest 200/200 army in the game....
I wonder what would happen if this build goes up against triple expo terran. (with the timing involved, they could do this fine with a bunkers or two)
It's not going to be 200/200 zerg vs 200/200 terran.
Zerg's not going to macro the whole game like a mindless drone and never attack...If you give zerg so much time he can use any build. Let's see...i think there's something called dark swarms that if zerg attacks terran in their bases nat, main, expos with dark swarm their's pretty much nothing terran can do. And there's always guardians from a far. HMMM guardians have a critical mass too.
I'm just talking crazy hypothetical stuff, but seriously Zerg will attack at some point ready or not. And like I said before, people should not follow builds like a zombie. This build is a lot to do with scouuting. If terran mass expos, only a dumbass will sit there continuing there build and not stop the expos. If someone is that predictable to follow the build exactly, yes terran can expand early, but why would a terran expand without knowing that this build is happening. This build starts out pretty standard.
On November 05 2008 19:39 Rucky wrote: It's not going to be 200/200 zerg vs 200/200 terran.
Zerg's not going to macro the whole game like a mindless drone and never attack...If you give zerg so much time he can use any build. Let's see...i think there's something called dark swarms that if zerg attacks terran in their bases nat, main, expos with dark swarm their's pretty much nothing terran can do. And there's always guardians from a far. HMMM guardians have a critical mass too.
I'm just talking crazy hypothetical stuff, but seriously Zerg will attack at some point ready or not. And like I said before, people should not follow builds like a zombie. This build is a lot to do with scouuting. If terran mass expos, only a dumbass will sit there continuing there build and not stop the expos. If someone is that predictable to follow the build exactly, yes terran can expand early, but why would a terran expand without knowing that this build is happening. This build starts out pretty standard.
yay another person understands!!!!! All is not lost! :D
So when will you add replays ? Many people have offered me strategys or tips , but i listen to them if they backup their words with actual examples to see if it is worth focusing on it . I wan't to put queens in my builds in both vT and vP MUs i haven't had much success thought i'm only D+/C-.
The problem is that 18gas after 3hatch followed by zergling speed AFTER lair+den+evo upgrade means there is really no reliable way to deny scouting without massing zerglings. On the other hand, short of suicide overlords, there is no way to scout a wall in terran, as he could be 3 Rax or CC behind the wall.
There needs to be a guideline on whether to send a drone to scout, whether to suicide a ovie, and when to get zerglings against the standard scouting SCV. Since it is something that needs to be done every match, it needs to be in the BO and not adapted on the fly.
If one merely mass drones, there'd be no scouting info apart from overlord onto of a cliff near the terran base, which is good enough to see a FE when it lands/push out but nothing before that. Its possible to build order lose instantly if a push out is spotted and there are no larva for zergling and no time for sunken before the ball is on top of you.
On November 06 2008 02:22 SWPIGWANG wrote: The problem is that 18gas after 3hatch followed by zergling speed AFTER lair+den+evo upgrade means there is really no reliable way to deny scouting without massing zerglings. On the other hand, short of suicide overlords, there is no way to scout a wall in terran, as he could be 3 Rax or CC behind the wall.
There needs to be a guideline on whether to send a drone to scout, whether to suicide a ovie, and when to get zerglings against the standard scouting SCV. Since it is something that needs to be done every match, it needs to be in the BO and not adapted on the fly.
If one merely mass drones, there'd be no scouting info apart from overlord onto of a cliff near the terran base, which is good enough to see a FE when it lands/push out but nothing before that. Its possible to build order lose instantly if a push out is spotted and there are no larva for zergling and no time for sunken before the ball is on top of you.
On October 26 2008 16:20 Misrah wrote:
(NO I'm not going to explain every little *build one ling here, make sunken now*, type of BS. This BO is a work in progress and frankly anyone that is going to be able to understand this whole concept shouldn't need a whole page of rhetoric on how to handle early game zvt.)
There is your answer. Your situation applies to all zerg build orders.
Looks like you just don't understand this whole concept.
On October 15 2007 23:35 ZerG~LegenD wrote: This is a guide to how to play a macro based 3 hatch mutalisk opening vs Terran fast expanders and academy rushers during the early game. There's also a very large section about early game scouting, and how to modify your build order.
The build order part applies for maps with a -not too wide- choke point and a total of 2 gases in your main and natural together. Examples of maps where this guide applies is Longinus, Luna and Python. Examples of maps where it does not apply is Vampire (3 gases), Rush Hour (too wide choke point) and Estrella (island map).
I must stress the point that there are indeed builds meant to counter specific situations that are slightly, in some cases almost unsignificantly, better than this one. But finding out exactly how the terran is dividing his resources during late early game is one hell of a task which you probably won't succed with. And if you guess wrong, you'll fall terribly behind instead. This build is meant to give you a safe walk into the mid game and put you in a good situation no matter what he does, as long as it's some kind of fe into bionic. It gives you a good stamp off to abuse surperior midgame skills, if that's not your forte you might pick a cheesier build or experiment some with lurker openings.
Overlord Scouting
Where to send the first overlord? This depends on whether you want to find one base as fast as possible, two bases as fast as possible or if you want to reach a camp able spot overlooking his choke as fast as possible.
If I 9 overpooled on a 4 player map I'd want to find 2 bases as fast as possible. If the bases are placed like on Lost Temple or Python, then I'd send my first overlord to the second closest base, if I'm at 6 then that's the 3 base. Then I'd send my my second overlord to the closest base, if I'm at 6 then that would be the base at 9. In this way I will successfully have scouted 2 out of 3 bases with only my overlords in time for my pool to finish. This means I'm 100% sure where my opponent is and that I'm guaranteed to send my zerglings to the right position. However, on some maps, like Luna and R-Point, there are no close base and no far base, all bases are far away. This means that you need to bring a drone off and scout with it if you want to 9 pool on these maps. But it also means that these maps are worse for 9 pooling as you has to bring the drone off.
Let's take another example. I'm going to 12 hatch expand on Longinus. I spawn at the 3 position. In this case I want to send my first overlord to the far away base, at 6. More precisely the cliff overlooking the choke of the 6 base. Then you send your second overlord to the cliff overlooking the choke of the 11 base . You want to manually micro your second overlord so it at all time is seeing as much as possible of the ground path between your base and the 11 base. However, you mustn't see too much as that would mean you won't be able to reach the safety of the unreachable high ground before you die, in case a marine should come walking there. The reason you send your overlord like this is of course to see if he sends his first marine to harass you or not. When sending your overlords like this you won't need to drone scout on Longinus. The same principle is usable on Tau Cross at the 9 position, except a 8raxer will be able to kill your second ol if he's at 1. If you're at 1 you can still do it, but your second ol dies if found no matter the build, as long as it's the second ol and not the first whom is traveling the right way.
If you 9 pool or 9 overpool on a 3 player map you want to send your first overlord to the closest base, in order to as fast as possible know where to send your zerglings, and if you're lucky get to know the strength of your opponents defences.
If you 12 hatch on a asymmetrical 4 player map (like Temple (except the 6 pos) or Python) you send your first overlord the the closest base, if he's not there you move on to the far away base. Your second overlord is sent to the second closest base. If I'm at 3 on Python this means that my first overlord goes to the 12 base and then continues to the 9 base while my second overlord goes to the 6 base and stays there.
If it's a symmetrical 4 player map (like Luna) the situation gets more complex. These maps can look like anything! 2 different maps can, and are very likely to, have 2 different scouting patterns.
Lastly, remember that that not all maps have safe scouting paths nor safe camp spots overlooking the chokes. With a 9 pool (or similar) your objective is always to determinate where your opponent is with as little drone scouting as possible. If you 12 hatch your objective is to find a camp spot overlooking his choke as fast as possible. Go figure how to do on more maps.
Drone Scouting
There is not much to speak about here. There are only three questions to ask. When shall I drone scout? What shall I do once I'm inside his base? And how long shall I stay outside his base?
Generally this applies, but there might be some exceptions, like maps with HUGE distances. If you send your drone at 12 you will be able to enter one base before he gets a marine out while if you send it at 9 you will be able to enter 2 bases.
So if it's a 3 player map you 12 drone scout, or don't drone scout at all, see the Overlord Scouting part above. And it it's a 4 player map you 9 drone scout. Once you're inside his base you want to look at the number of barracks, and if he's taking the gas or not. There might also be dead give-aways, like a Command Center building or an academy going up. A gas is likely to mean an academy rush but could also mean some kind of cheese build.
Only 1 barrack but no gas means he's either fast expanding or building proxy. If he has only one 1 barrack and has taken his gas you want to sacrifice your scouting drone to find out what he's up to. A drone is faster than a marine but the marine has perfect acceleration so you want to travel in as straight paths as possible abusing your maximum speed. Going through his mineral line is another trick to use. All in all you might not be able to stay alive for a very long time but he will have to make his tech buildings quickly so you might be able to find them anyway, unless they're proxied.
On to the last question, if he's 2 raxing, or 1 raxing without gas you want to move out of his base in time to save your drone and place it in his choke so that you can see if he moves out to harass you. Stay there until he moves out or until your overlord arrives to take over the duty.
Note that if he's 8 raxing you won't be able to enter the second base with a 9 scout nor the first base with a 12 scout.
When to add Sunkens Colonies?
You want to get away with as few sunkens as possible, as late as possible, but still live. How many you need do of course depend on how large army he has, but that's something you'll have to learn your self. Generally 2-4 should be enough unless he goes 3 or 4 rax.
What's easier to tell is when you need them. The first thing you need to ask yourself is this: Is the time it takes him to walk to my base from the position where my scout is placed longer than the time it takes to build a sunken? If the answer is yes, then you only want to add sunkens when you see him move out. If the answer is no, then you want to pre-add creep colonies, but do not morph them into sunkens. Morph them into sunkens only when you see him move out. So when to pre-add the creeps? Add the first one around 20 supply, unless he moves out before of course. But if he moves out before you should be able to fend him off even if the sunk isn't completely finished when he arrives. If he tries to run by you do of course pull off your drones.
The second one should be pre-added just before you make your spire (this means the spire will be made at 26 instead of 27) and the third one just after you make your spire. Unless you've managed to scout a fast expansion build. Then you can add the second one just after the spire is laid down, and the third once he gets medics out. If you don't know if he got medics or not then add the third slightly after the second, maybe 3-5 supply inbetween.
OMFG IT'S A SWIZZERCHEESE!
How to tell a cheeser from a player whom this build is meant to counter? Asuming our scouting drone finds nothing? An academy rusher is most likely to move out in the time frame around when your lair finishes (1 rax acarush would be faster, but also weaker), a fast expander is likely to have taken his expansion even earlier. That is what we're going to use. Instead of trying to tell if he's cheesing we're going to find out if he's not cheesing, and then assume that he's cheesing if it turns out he's not doing a non-cheese build. So if he has neither moved out nor expanded by the time your spire has started, let's say been morphing for a while. After all some people are doing slow academy rushes. Though they're not as efficient as quicker ones they do still exist, and a stupid move can turn into a genius one if we assume he will not do it. So, if he has neither moved out nor expanded by the time your spire has been morphing for some 10-20-30 seconds (pick one! I'd get get suspicious of him at 10 and convinced at 20) - he's very likely up to something sneaky. Now you have very little time to prepare for a cheese, but little is better than none at all.
Some General Advice
Always pre-add overlords during mid game. Having to wait for an overlord to finish is far worse than having wasted 100 minerals on an unneeded overlord.
Put a fourth drone on your natural's gas if it's placed to the right or below your natural hatchery. If your main gas is placed to the right or below your main hatchery, then place your third hatchery below or to the right of the gas. If that's not possible then put 4 drones on the main gas too.
Spread out a few zerglings across the map during the mid game so you always know where your opponent has his army.
Always try to flank your opponent. Flank=attack from at least two sides. The move might take some multitask to pull off but practice makes perfect.
Always try to delay the fight with your opponents main army. Terrans tend not to reinforce their main army once it has moved out. Use this to your advantage and reinforce your own army for as long as possible.
Plague owns anything that is bionic.
Always keep zerglings patroling the remote exps that you have not taken. The terran mustn't get another base without fighting for it.
Because SWPIGWANG seems to have trouble playing early game ZvT i guess everyone is going to need pages and pages of rhetoric on how to handle it. It seems that some people need this and are to lazy to figure it out that the same applies to this build, or simply cannot fathom doing something that we have not discussed here about the Cocaine BO.
@ SWPIGWANG please be sure to familiarize yourself with the information posted above
When I do this build, I like to build my 3rd hatch at a gas expansion. I get den quite early to upgrade hydras then lair and upgrade lurkers. With the fast third gas, it's possible to go both hydras and lurkers and queens all at the same time. With my shitty low apm, I experience resource overload and need 6 hatches for mid-game just to spend my resources. Also, with my low apm, I was not able to use queens and lurkers at the same time with all the macroing involved in this strategy. Maybe someone better can make it work.
Assuming the T already knows this build and FE's goes pure M&M&F even with just 1-1 upgrades out of like 6 or more raxes and teching late to match-up your drone whoring and 4 hatcheries. And times his attack well when you get your third, off course hydra/ling/queen simply cant match it up even with ensnare. With even bases you have no chance at all, your third is going to be late because of massing up and he'll just ran you over like shit.
On November 06 2008 14:53 Stimpacked wrote: Assuming the T already knows this build and FE's goes pure M&M&F even with just 1-1 upgrades out of like 6 or more raxes and teching late to match-up your drone whoring and 4 hatcheries. And times his attack well when you get your third, off course hydra/ling/queen simply cant match it up even with ensnare. With even bases you have no chance at all, your third is going to be late because of massing up and he'll just ran you over like shit.
Ahh getting so tired of people coming into the thread- making it their jihad to destroy the build, any way possible. Of course in these games the terran player is a brilliant psychic who understands everything, and the zerg player never scouts. Yes, yes brilliant deduction my good sir. How long did it take you to come up with this interesting rebuttal? Also if you would have taken half of the time to read the plethora of information posted in this thread the assumptions that you have created are mostly false.
Before i forget, your third base is taken by your fourth hatchery before gas. Additional hatcheries are added whenever possible. So next time you decide to waste your and to be more specific (my) time please give me something worth writing about, instead of a condensed theoretical counter puke on paper argument that you thought up two minuets ago.
Considering that you have never played this build, you seem to know every in and out.
On November 06 2008 13:49 Rucky wrote: When I do this build, I like to build my 3rd hatch at a gas expansion. I get den quite early to upgrade hydras then lair and upgrade lurkers. With the fast third gas, it's possible to go both hydras and lurkers and queens all at the same time. With my shitty low apm, I experience resource overload and need 6 hatches for mid-game just to spend my resources. Also, with my low apm, I was not able to use queens and lurkers at the same time with all the macroing involved in this strategy. Maybe someone better can make it work.
Ohh (sorry i missed this) @ rucky
You get your third hatch at an expo? How do you deal with the terran scouting you? (My computer will be back in my possession this Friday, so hopefully i can start trying every thing new lol) but until then, how did you deal with this?
Did the terran's you were playing think that something was going on? or could you proceed as normal? I'm curious to see what you have experienced with taking the 3rd expo with our 3rd hatch.
Also i was wondering, could you please provide a replay to your game? I would like to see it.
For the third gas, I had always envisioned in my build that all of your drones should be mining more minerals, for crazy amounts of hatcheries and of course hydra/ling. Gas is saved for queens, upgrades and teck only. Basically i just really want to watch your replay and see what is going on wi th your play.
If you would like to/ want to spend the time, would you mind answering a few of the above questions? Thanks
On November 06 2008 14:53 Stimpacked wrote: Assuming the T already knows this build and FE's goes pure M&M&F even with just 1-1 upgrades out of like 6 or more raxes and teching late to match-up your drone whoring and 4 hatcheries. And times his attack well when you get your third, off course hydra/ling/queen simply cant match it up even with ensnare. With even bases you have no chance at all, your third is going to be late because of massing up and he'll just ran you over like shit.
Ahh getting so tired of people coming into the thread- making it their jihad to destroy the build, any way possible. Of course in these games the terran player is a brilliant psychic who understands everything, and the zerg player never scouts. Yes, yes brilliant deduction my good sir. How long did it take you to come up with this interesting rebuttal? Also if you would have taken half of the time to read the plethora of information posted in this thread the assumptions that you have created are mostly false.
Before i forget, your third base is taken by your fourth hatchery before gas. Additional hatcheries are added whenever possible. So next time you decide to waste your and to be more specific (my) time please give me something worth writing about, instead of a condensed theoretical counter puke on paper argument that you thought up two minuets ago.
Considering that you have never played this build, you seem to know every in and out.
gg good sir.
My point is that you cant match T's firepower at a certain point of the game. You cant scout enough because you have no spire or very late spire so your slow overlords cant do nothing. Don't tell me your researching overlord speed when your concentrating on queens plus hydra/ling upgrades. Also the main point of your build as I've read is to macro up on 4 hatcheries outnumbering terran on midgame. How can you keep your 3rd up and running while massing like hell, you've never mentioned that you have 3 bases on the baby push T's gonna do. What if the baby push involves 2-3 groups of M&M&F first taking your 3rd base or so as called 4th hatch when you're still powering up? Your troops are going to be divided and if they successfully take your 3rd base or 4th hatch you'll be even and you can get ran over by the 6+ raxes terran has. Yes as what I've assuming T knows this build and yes they have comsats and most of the people visit TL.net. Well im just finding ways to counter your build not destroy it. So i think T's just mass it up and tech late that's pretty much easy.
I cannot believe I am going to answer this all again:
1. What point can't zerg match terran firepower? When are you going to move out? This build gets a fast hive, and because of the fast upgrades will also have fast ultra. So how long are you going to sit inside of your 2base terran and 'macro up' while allowing me to go around the map and take 5+ expos by 10min in the game. How are you going to stop me? Go test your theories out some time. Most of the people that have tried this build seem to disagree with you. If you sit inside of your base all day, I will run rampant. My economy will be insane along with my production rate. You would not be able to keep up.
Zerg economy&production (left unchecked) grows faster than any other race in the game. You intend to sit inside of your base and allow me to do just that. Sounds like a logical idea to me.
2. Scouting? are you kidding me? Queens have parasite, and are fast- with a large vision range. I can be in and around your base all of the time. (This tells me that once again, you have not read this thread before posting)
3. Macro up on 4 hatch? Really? (Once again you have no idea what your talking about- no where in my build do i state this. I will say again: Please go and read this thread before posting counter arguments)
4. For the 3base argument- yes this is mentioned, once again read this thread, I'm not going to copy and paste everything that other people and myself have already discussed and stated. Also your trying to tell me that you first 'baby push' has has 24-36 M&M ? Are you kidding me? that is mid game at BEST. That is not an early game push- that is mid game.
5. 6+ rax that terran has? When? in the early game? Once again you don't make sense. Your talking about mid game or late mid game. At which point, if you truly decide to wait that long- my production and economy will be far to much for terran to handle. Also i will be tecking to hive, and will soon be at hive play- making your plight even worse. Even if you do manage to kill an expo- im still 4 base zerg with hive teck vs your piddly two base terran. (which according to you, has decided to not teck to anything- so my hive teck will run you over)
Lets say that on the off chance, I am not nearing hive teck. Your strategy is (Sit inside 2base terran, macro up many rax- don't teck.)
So you have a plethora of M&M with no vessels. I can always just get lurkers. Once again you are counting on the fact that the zerg is a complete and utter fool- with no scouting information. So now i have my lurker army, and you with no vessle. Boo Hoo.
Once again you have not played the build (nor have you taken the time to read this thread about the build, you have not watched any replays or for that matter done any research into your argument.)
Please refrain from posting in this thread until you have done the following that i have so kindly stated in the above parenthesis.
So, to make it clear the 3rd hatch goes to a gas expansion ( i play on python so i put it at an empty main farthest from enemy ) and 4th hatch goes where my 3rd hatch would in my base so it'll look like a standard 3 hatch play.
With initial 6 lings, destroy first scv scout and send 1 to put at the choke of the hidden main expansion. other 5 use to stop scouting scv's and to know when terran expands or move out.
I just thought hey, if terran can't scout he'll never know. And if he scans he'll never scan there...he'll just scan your main for tech. Lastly if he does manage to scout over there, your 1 ling at choke will stop it. He will then immediate probably try to send an army out there. When you notice that 1 ling killed or got killed, you know it is the time to just mass lings and hydras from your hatches. If terran moves out you can pressure with a backstab so he won't move out or if he does, you can pressure to flank while terran is moving.
I don't think this will work for another map, but python works fine for me. And to respond to the extreme m&m max rax build, when i feel extremely threatened, i do get lurkers. i'm not retarded. With the fast gas i can get lurkers and hydra-ling.
On November 06 2008 17:53 Rucky wrote: So, to make it clear the 3rd hatch goes to a gas expansion ( i play on python so i put it at an empty main farthest from enemy ) and 4th hatch goes where my 3rd hatch would in my base so it'll look like a standard 3 hatch play.
With initial 6 lings, destroy first scv scout and send 1 to put at the choke of the hidden main expansion. other 5 use to stop scouting scv's and to know when terran expands or move out.
I just thought hey, if terran can't scout he'll never know. And if he scans he'll never scan there...he'll just scan your main for tech. Lastly if he does manage to scout over there, your 1 ling at choke will stop it. He will then immediate probably try to send an army out there. When you notice that 1 ling killed or got killed, you know it is the time to just mass lings and hydras from your hatches. If terran moves out you can pressure with a backstab so he won't move out or if he does, you can pressure to flank while terran is moving.
I don't think this will work for another map, but python works fine for me. And to respond to the extreme m&m max rax build, when i feel extremely threatened, i do get lurkers. i'm not retarded. With the fast gas i can get lurkers and hydra-ling.
I'm glad to hear that getting a 3rd expo so quickly happens to be a usable idea. Thanks for writing and you time rucky.
On November 06 2008 17:54 Metaspace wrote: Anymore replays guys? (I myself am overworked and ill, nice combination :-/)
I'm sorry to here that you are sick get better soon (drink some tea and stay hydrated- that has always helped me lol )
As for the replays, I am getting my computer back this friday- and i plan to play straight through till sunday. I will post mass reps of all of the games. So just hold out a bit longer
However now that i think about it, I'm going to have to change my name on icup, and B.net. People might know it's me lol jk jk.
Maybe your just making excuses that your computer is still fucked up where you cant make a win making this so-called build. what the hell? 10min mark? thats so far away. Look at it this way,T FEs, gets 2nd rax put acad and ebay, when acad fnishes scan your base sees your so called build with the hydras and mass lings. Then T adds a lot of raxes gradually, non stop making m&m while not teching thus going 6 or more then scouts and sees your 4th hatch or your 3rd base. And then attacks adding factory incase you shift to lurkers, scans can handle that because you should have not so many lurks since your gas are spent on queens and hydras plus upgrades. What are you gonna do with that? At that point you either have your first few queens and lets say 3-4 groups of hydra/ling and maybe researching lurker. On the other hand since T is concentrating on pure infantry has also 3-4 groups. Dont underestimate the macro of terran while skipping tech he saves the money on factory 3tanks + sige plus starport science facility vessels that means more m&m army. So at that point you're really vulnerable. And can be run over once your 3rd expo get killed you're pretty much dead. Im not saying your build will never work it can work when T goes standard like 2-3groups m&m 3 tanks and a vessel can be outrun in numbers but if he concentrates on head2head infantry combat i just think Z cannot overwhelm it.
oh geeze....so many things wrong with what you're saying. how many scans do you have...come on. scans base and sees hydras and mass lings.......never...........scans base and see lair den and everything looking like a normal build. hydras and lings will not be there. thinking its a lurker build yes terran will continue to tech and build to get tanks and sci vessels. Don't OveRestimate the terrans thinking process. unless he's psychic or has map hacks. just by scanning bases does not reveal much.
Anyway... Some replays of my D level play ;P (just because i can't play at top level doesn't mean i can't think at top level) Terran goes fe acad more rax pretty standard. This is one shows my fast 3rd base with enough gas to switch to lurker and hydra and lings, but i forgot queens since at my apm level 130ish... i can't do so many things at once. i couldn't even handle the amount of resources i was getting!(i just want to say that this build is not the "queen and hydra" build. it's more like a playstyle) then i got to ultras and won. I think this is the one where the terran was mined out since he had to build so many units constantly as they keep getting wiped out. http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=72130
Edit: ignoring stimpacked comments... I want to help. (If you have nothing good to add why say anything, just don't watch it. you don't have to publish yourself with i don't look at d replays)
Terran goes unorthodox play you might say. 2 port wraiths and then transition into 4 rax expand. Hydras are good for antiair plus it can snipe ledge seige tanks. It can also hit and run m&m. http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=72134
Terran goes acad 3 rax play then expands. Saw the threat, sunkened up and mass lings. He was able to go up my ramp into my main, but even losing a lot of drones, mining at my nat and my early third kept be alive easy. I felt i was behind so i just skipped hydras completely and went lurker ling ftw. (here my drones got raped from eraser. 1st replay above i upgraded burrow 100/100 to not make the same mistake and saved all my drones lives: totally worth it) http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=72137
On November 06 2008 19:01 Stimpacked wrote: Maybe your just making excuses that your computer is still fucked up where you cant make a win making this so-called build. what the hell? 10min mark? thats so far away. Look at it this way,T FEs, gets 2nd rax put acad and ebay, when acad fnishes scan your base sees your so called build with the hydras and mass lings. Then T adds a lot of raxes gradually, non stop making m&m while not teching thus going 6 or more then scouts and sees your 4th hatch or your 3rd base. And then attacks adding factory incase you shift to lurkers, scans can handle that because you should have not so many lurks since your gas are spent on queens and hydras plus upgrades. What are you gonna do with that? At that point you either have your first few queens and lets say 3-4 groups of hydra/ling and maybe researching lurker. On the other hand since T is concentrating on pure infantry has also 3-4 groups. Dont underestimate the macro of terran while skipping tech he saves the money on factory 3tanks + sige plus starport science facility vessels that means more m&m army. So at that point you're really vulnerable. And can be run over once your 3rd expo get killed you're pretty much dead. Im not saying your build will never work it can work when T goes standard like 2-3groups m&m 3 tanks and a vessel can be outrun in numbers but if he concentrates on head2head infantry combat i just think Z cannot overwhelm it.
I'm glad you decided to heed my advice. obviously you read the thread and watched the reps.
This will be my last replay to your foolishness. In the future i (and hope others will refrain from replying) to your crudely thought out ideas (if you can even call them that). Until you can show me something concrete- I am no longer going to continue to waste my time.
Also personal attacks, coupled with uneducated and scathing remarks, really? I thought that people could be above such petty things - guess not.
Not getting a win? I daresay- there are quite a few in the thread. (if you took the time to read/watch it) As stated before i will be mass gaming and mass repping once my computer comes back this Friday.
Ok so- "Then T adds a lot of raxes gradually, non stop making m&m while not teching"
So, once again- how long is this going to take, until you move out? Please keep in mind that zerg will be scouting you, and because you have no intentions of leaving your base, will mass expo. A smart zerg will adapt to your game play. Also lets not forget, it will take you awhile to be able to afford to pump marines continually from your rax with your economy. it will take time, and you will need to wait long enough for your scv count to get high enough for your continuous pumping of marines. Hence why, in normal play- terran only adds more rax later in the game. The mechanics of zerg and terran economy is very different. Unlike zerg, you are only producing from 2 CC's while i will have 4-6 hatch producing drones. The zerg player will be at lair teck, with hydras- so making the switch to a lurk ling army is no problem. (only a 200/200 upgrade) Because you have conceded the map to zerg (you yourself so state that you will sit inside of your base and macro- zerg will conversely do the same.) One catch tho- zerg economy unhindered will produce faster and grow more rapidly than a terran sitting on 2base. Zerg will expo to 3 then 4 base rapidly, thus increasing my economy. I will quickly be at 3gass, then 4. I can create lurkers if need be.
"Dont underestimate the macro of terran"
Don't underestimate the macro of terran? Well player mistakes and hoping the the players playing in your fantasy game are the same skill level- 3-4base zerg > 2base terran. Sorry kid.
Also you say that at "this point in the game" (i can only speculate, because i have no idea of your timings- or how fast you really can create your marine mass) Your trying to tell me that terran units would match zerg? 3-4 groups of terran vs my 3-4 group of zerg? Your kidding right? (zerg is NUMERICALLY SUPERIOR- so really the group ratio would be 3-4 groups T 6-7 groups Z.) Also if you were to move out at this time, (once again you bring up the gas argument) Remember, in standard zvt, the zerg takes the 3rd gas much later than Cocaine style does. i will have extra gas. Also i will have a surplus because i will not be tecking spire or getting 12 or so muta. So your gas argument is totally invalid. Scans should handle it? 3-4 gas lurker? i have never seen this happen before.....Perhaps you have gosu M&M micro? Also your army will be weak- if you don't teck, i hope that your 1/1 rines can handle a numerically superior, upgrade superior zerg army.
Understand, Think, Base your ideas in concrete information- try your build, watch some reps of this one.
I will no longer waste anymore of my time responding to your pointless arguments and assertions, that you cannot base in real fact.
On November 06 2008 19:29 Stimpacked wrote: sorry i dont watch d replays cant learn anythng from it.
wow. if that doesn't say anything about your character- i don't know what will. Pretentious fool.
Misrah, since you are updating on this thread constantly, it would be nice if you updated the fist post with replays that are successful or unsuccessful on this strategy.
I have yet to fight this build properly (as in my opponent makes mistakes) but I am curious to see how you would go vs FE -> 5-7 raxes build. I do not exactly know how fast a zerg can macro with 4 hatches, but the initial group of MM+F is around 1.5-2.5 control groups of MF, depending on terran's number of raxes and +1 upgrade. Can the overpower the terran's macro? If you match it, terran can tech while producing off of 6 raxes and you are vulnerable to dropships while you are stuck with terran's constant ball. I will also post additional information when I come across this build.
wala, that is the hole in the build, and it's all about trying to trick the terran into moving out at the wrong time, or keeping him reluctant to move out at the right time.
And that is by going hydra/ling with upgrades and queens? I mean if I saw a fast queen's nest with lair, by guess would be turbo hive and I would move out asap to take the zerg army head-on or go to the third.
From the gas list on OP, I would be suspicious of the fast evo chamber whether I scout it with my scv or scan it later. I would know that if the zerg is faking upgrade, the 125+minerals will give me a leverage; if the upgrade is going, then I would move out asap since I know that no mutas will be coming. The zerg will look slightly-off standard, which means the terran will move out while the zerg is weak.
I'm guessing here is the zerg's opportunity to crush the terran ball, but if the zerg is weak at that timing, isn't this a risk?
Also I'm guessing that it's missle first because carapace, although it benefits both lings and hydras, costs more gas?
On November 08 2008 00:08 village_idiot wrote: Hey, man. You got your comp back?
Seriously. Now i'm waiting for you're replays just to see how it might all work out xD
Ya me too- hope im not too rust from having not played in 2 weeks lol
On November 08 2008 04:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: Misrah, since you are updating on this thread constantly, it would be nice if you updated the fist post with replays that are successful or unsuccessful on this strategy.
I have yet to fight this build properly (as in my opponent makes mistakes) but I am curious to see how you would go vs FE -> 5-7 raxes build. I do not exactly know how fast a zerg can macro with 4 hatches, but the initial group of MM+F is around 1.5-2.5 control groups of MF, depending on terran's number of raxes and +1 upgrade. Can the overpower the terran's macro? If you match it, terran can tech while producing off of 6 raxes and you are vulnerable to dropships while you are stuck with terran's constant ball. I will also post additional information when I come across this build.
Well like i have said, mass repping and i will try and play anyone zvt if they want, with me going my cocaine build. I will hopefully play some competant terrans tonight or tommorow, so we can see how well this build actually fares.
As far as your idea about me updating the main page with others replays- sound like a great idea and i will get started on this, when i start adding replays of my own.
I am interested in your counter- perhaps we need to try a few things. Please keep the critisisms coming- always want to here more
On November 08 2008 05:15 Mora wrote: wala, that is the hole in the build, and it's all about trying to trick the terran into moving out at the wrong time, or keeping him reluctant to move out at the right time.
Ahh ya- the problems with this build, mora points them out perfectly. The question is, is this hole to large? Thus resulting in a worthless Bo? Or like all builds- can the hole be patched and the build saved.
On November 08 2008 05:15 Mora wrote: wala, that is the hole in the build, and it's all about trying to trick the terran into moving out at the wrong time, or keeping him reluctant to move out at the right time.
Yea, you want them to move out early seeing your early evo and knows that no mutas are coming. You want them to move out when their balls are quite small so that you can flanks with hydra-ling and trade armies hopefully winning the battle. Then terran will have to rebuild a new army.
So like the quote, make them move out in the wrong time (when they're small and weak) and keep him reluctant to move out when their ball is big and strong. When it's big enough that hydra ling doesn't work, zerg just have to buy time by backstab threats and making terran shut down expansion attempts. If zerg buys enough time, hive tech will be up and running and that's what zerg wants.
First of all I have to say that english is not my first language so sorry in advance for the mistakes that i can make, also im not a very good player but i think i can really help to this BO with my advice.
Ok, i have watched both replays, first of all i must say 2nd replay is pretty useless, but i have notice some important things in the 1st rep:
1 - When he makes his first push, your hydras are the only units that are really effective, your lings melt quite fast and dont even get a hit on his rines, so i would suggest delaying ling speed on favour of hydra range.
2 - I highly recommend making ur 3rd expo (3 o'clock) up the ramp as u did in 1st game but not in second, reason of that is because the ramp is easily defended with 5 hydras and some lings if u are up the ramp because of the missing attack of marines and also they can't attack all together while you can flank them and ensare them easily. In this game you let them take the ramp and also attack him when his has the higher position, imo you should have had some hydraling up the ramp or in case he already has taken the ramp should have wait till he goes to your 3 o clock expo and atack him there.
3 - I wouldnt go 3 evo because ultras arrive just when you should need your +1 spikes but ultras are clearly better than your hydras and as you are not getting lurkers he is spending most of his gas on tanks and not in vessels.
4 - I would make more queens, i think a better terrran player would have a bigger group of units and u only had 2 queens, i would go 6 or so in order to delay pushes or picking positional tanks with broodlings ( i have read all 15 pages and you say broodling is not viable, i agree but im not pretend to kill all his tanks with broodlings, only high ground tanks or some tanks that are pushing me to buy some time, i think at that stage of the game is not big a deal the cost of the ability, maybe replacing the 3 evo and range upgrade)
I love this build order, zerg shouldnt be harrasing to make time, zerg were born to have map control and overwhelm the other races bit by bit and droping while attacking expos.
On November 06 2008 19:29 Stimpacked wrote: sorry i dont watch d replays cant learn anythng from it.
HOLY CRAP THAT WAS A CONSTRUCTIVE POST! We really needed to know that.
Where do we nominate people to be banned?
You can't. I think that the mods stopped paying attention to the thread until we actually either A) got useful results that rendered this as viable/not or B) until interest in this strategy died.
The luna game is really really good, shows transition into ultra. This terran went pure m&M and tank. I have a sweet flank, he takes my bait and leaves all of his tanks undefended. I run in when he is distracted and snipe a few. On the other hand- i kept on forgetting to build queens it would have made my life so much easier
The scond game (on python) is just a joke I reap this kid with Cocaine- and then fool with him. Watch for a joke i guess
I dont know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but Jaedong did something like this build in a game when he was on Bnet Attack (or some show like it). It was on Python, and his handicap was hydras only...
The terran played decently, but wasn't terribly aggressive in the early game. With pure monstrous macro and good flanks (taking full advantage of the mobility hydras grant), he was able to take the game. He didn't even starve the terran...
I haven't been keeping up on this thread in very much detail, but it sounds like an interesting idea to me.
On November 09 2008 17:31 PH wrote: I dont know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but Jaedong did something like this build in a game when he was on Bnet Attack (or some show like it). It was on Python, and his handicap was hydras only...
The terran played decently, but wasn't terribly aggressive in the early game. With pure monstrous macro and good flanks (taking full advantage of the mobility hydras grant), he was able to take the game. He didn't even starve the terran...
I haven't been keeping up on this thread in very much detail, but it sounds like an interesting idea to me.
I remember that.
Jaedong went pure hydra and the Terran played very stupid, often separating his tanks from the main army.
On November 09 2008 17:31 PH wrote: I dont know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but Jaedong did something like this build in a game when he was on Bnet Attack (or some show like it). It was on Python, and his handicap was hydras only...
The terran played decently, but wasn't terribly aggressive in the early game. With pure monstrous macro and good flanks (taking full advantage of the mobility hydras grant), he was able to take the game. He didn't even starve the terran...
I haven't been keeping up on this thread in very much detail, but it sounds like an interesting idea to me.
I remember that.
Jaedong went pure hydra and the Terran played very stupid, often separating his tanks from the main army.
I actually made that happen a bit in the luna game. I'm still to much of a noob with this Bo to fully use all of the new nuances and this opens to the zerg player
On November 09 2008 17:31 PH wrote: I dont know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but Jaedong did something like this build in a game when he was on Bnet Attack (or some show like it). It was on Python, and his handicap was hydras only...
The terran played decently, but wasn't terribly aggressive in the early game. With pure monstrous macro and good flanks (taking full advantage of the mobility hydras grant), he was able to take the game. He didn't even starve the terran...
I haven't been keeping up on this thread in very much detail, but it sounds like an interesting idea to me.
I remember that.
Jaedong went pure hydra and the Terran played very stupid, often separating his tanks from the main army.
Yeah, he didn't keep his ball together...but from the other perspective, let's just say that Jaedong attacked at all the right times, and executed flanks perfectly.
Well misrah, i watched your game on luna i have to say i dont like it at all, first of all as you said you dont use queen and sacrifice them for nothing, i think you only use ensare once. your expansion should have a gas because would have a better economy in the end to make more ultras. I just think if the terran would have use better his economy would have won without any effort, you allow him to expand at 9 o'clock also, i would use this strat to make a "contain", if he tries to get out you flank him and punish him because he doesnt have enough tanks, when he has enough tank with only 2 expos, you already have ultras, if not span ensare and broodling to buy time for ultras to come. I will post some reps if i can manage to play as i want.
I just watched the reps misrah posted and the things that blatantly caught the eye are:
Not using queens properly.
There are too few queens and ensnare is never cast properly. You engage the ball with your main army and then try to cast ensnare. This basically causes half of your army to die in vain and even when using ensnare you usually only manage to hit a small part of the army. The optimal way of casting ensnare is using parasite and then cloning the queens to hit as much as possible. What makes this hard is that the Terran ball is always moving! Queens are not as easy to use as it seems and they actually require a lot of skilled micro.
Bad opponents
The Terrans you play with all have 1000 minerals at the 10 minute mark. Even then you are struggling with the Terran army. I think that when you meet a Terran with better macro you will get steamrolled no questions asked.
Anyway, the flanking is good enough which causes the Terrans to die. You just need to find more APM to do the ensnaring properly as well as find better opponents to play with.
well this is my version of coke style, it is pretty like a lurker contain on zvp but this time only with zerling and hydra, im only a d+ player and my opponent also but i think i can give you an idea of what it could be. Enjoy it and i need critics to improve my play.
Some mistakes i think i made are:
1 - my second evo is late, so my melee upgrades are late too.
2- I have a very bad scout, i missed that dropship that just pass through my ovi.But as i said i could use broodling on the medic in order to deal with it.
3- My micro is very poor and i should have start making defilers sooner in order to attack him, i could have also expand 1 more time.
I watched only 1 of your replays and that was the Luna game where you said it was a really really good game? Wtf that wasn't even good that was worst. First off, was this a d/d- game? The T didnt have dropships and even a starport the whole game he also have very bad macro, right after he expanded he had like 1000+ and he only added 1racks. You didnt have spire, you can even shift to mutas coz he dont have turrets and win very early. You had 2 queens but i even didnt saw a good ensnare. You ensnared on sieged tanks on the middle of the map and your hydraling flank didnt do nothing. You said on your arguement that you can have 6-7 groups at 10 min mark but that was like 2-3 groups and did nothing to the little terran ball he has. Its not the hydra/ling/queen that won you the game it was the ultras and T just sit there and let you expand like shit. Nice theorycrafting but i just dont think this strat is viable well against me I think.
Hmm some very good criticisms from everyone. What can i say? I need to practice this build more.
Perhaps you are right. This may not work against competent opponents- but i am going to try it out for a few more days at least. Thanks everyone for spending the time to watch the reps, and post some replies.
I guess that i had gotten a bit optimistic with this strat lol
if anyone still cares, i plan on posting a few more reps, but whatever.
The strat is completly viable i think, you are not in better position if ur muta harras fails or if ur groups of lurker get picked by a good marine control. I think this strat put you in a better position.
On November 09 2008 17:31 PH wrote: I dont know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but Jaedong did something like this build in a game when he was on Bnet Attack (or some show like it). It was on Python, and his handicap was hydras only...
The terran played decently, but wasn't terribly aggressive in the early game. With pure monstrous macro and good flanks (taking full advantage of the mobility hydras grant), he was able to take the game. He didn't even starve the terran...
I haven't been keeping up on this thread in very much detail, but it sounds like an interesting idea to me.
I remember that.
Jaedong went pure hydra and the Terran played very stupid, often separating his tanks from the main army.
I actually made that happen a bit in the luna game. I'm still to much of a noob with this Bo to fully use all of the new nuances and this opens to the zerg player
on bnet attack he also went once queen + massling only. I think on BS.
On November 09 2008 22:12 Battle wrote: Well misrah, i watched your game on luna i have to say i dont like it at all, first of all as you said you dont use queen and sacrifice them for nothing, i think you only use ensare once. your expansion should have a gas because would have a better economy in the end to make more ultras. I just think if the terran would have use better his economy would have won without any effort, you allow him to expand at 9 o'clock also, i would use this strat to make a "contain", if he tries to get out you flank him and punish him because he doesnt have enough tanks, when he has enough tank with only 2 expos, you already have ultras, if not span ensare and broodling to buy time for ultras to come. I will post some reps if i can manage to play as i want.
agree in order to make your style work u need more expos, the min only was good b/c allowed for more hatch and therefore more units
Well i have been playing some games i have won all of them with this strat, i wish some good people can use it vs a good terran player in order to see how the things goes, i have notices by the time terran player has enough tanks my ultras are out with 5-2, also parasiting dropships is very useful.
On November 09 2008 16:21 Misrah wrote: Ok i have some more
The luna game is really really good, shows transition into ultra. This terran went pure m&M and tank. I have a sweet flank, he takes my bait and leaves all of his tanks undefended. I run in when he is distracted and snipe a few. On the other hand- i kept on forgetting to build queens it would have made my life so much easier
The scond game (on python) is just a joke I reap this kid with Cocaine- and then fool with him. Watch for a joke i guess
I watched the Luna replay, and i actually think the build order is interresting. But you really dident use the queens for anything.
you got one ensnare off that dident do anything, and thats it. If you had used the gas for defilers or just more units instead your win would have been better.
But besides that the queenplay, which i had ekspected to be central, the hydraling play was nice and would have been more effective if you hadnt made any queens.
That said i think this queen build is less effektive than other builds, you might win with it, but you would have won with other builds aswell.
On November 10 2008 05:52 MiStAh wrote: Well, I played you and you called me a hacker bud. And your queens weren't that effective. They just ensnared me and that's all.
The above link is a C level ZvT with me going queens (Misrah's build) on Destination 1.1. The guy I played was a 60% win rate C (I am a 52% win rate C) and was Korean with about 300 apm.
Notes:
You do have to start pumping Zerglings before they push out. You saw how I didn't even kill his army even though his medics weren't there, and that was my fault for not flanking properly. It is essential you survive the first push, although it is still playable if you lose a hatch as I did because you still have 3 hatcheries.
A late rax allows 3 hatch before pool, as I did, although a good Terran will expand with 1 marine if you do so. It is your choice on which to do.
Science vessels really are a big problem. Although Misrah said hydralisks are good enough to take out the science vessels, they really aren't enough. If they build up enough, as in any ZvT, you're screwed.
Dropships are the key to killing this build - there's almost no protection against a high DPS drop that can dish out tons of damage before you arrive. Although it's easier to deal with using hydraling than lurkers, drops are a lot easier for the Terran to pull off because of your lack of a spire. If the Terran in this game focused more on drops, he would easily have won.
The terran in this game had some amazing macro from my perspective, he had huge forces - he did forget supply depots and stuff, but everytime I saw his army I got really scared. My question to you guys is whether he had so many units because he delayed his third? However, just watch how those armies crumble when ensared.
I forgot to upgrade ensnare and almost lost when his second push with ~3 tanks came.
Infested Command Center
My gas differs slightly from Misrah's. I do my first gas into zergling speed to hold off any fast pushes. My next gas goes into the carapace. Third is lair, and last is hydralisk den. If you go hydralisk den before lair, you can't get the upgrades, or you'll have to delay your lair, therefore it would be a waste. I find that this is the most efficient as far as I've played so far.
Edit: Chill made fun of this build in the Cholera vs Chill showmatch! Show him wrong!!!
The above link is a C level ZvT with me going queens (Misrah's build) on Destination 1.1. The guy I played was a 60% win rate C (I am a 52% win rate C) and was Korean with about 300 apm.
Notes:
You do have to start pumping Zerglings before they push out. You saw how I didn't even kill his army even though his medics weren't there, and that was my fault for not flanking properly. It is essential you survive the first push, although it is still playable if you lose a hatch as I did because you still have 3 hatcheries.
A late rax allows 3 hatch before pool, as I did, although a good Terran will expand with 1 marine if you do so. It is your choice on which to do.
Science vessels really are a big problem. Although Misrah said hydralisks are good enough to take out the science vessels, they really aren't enough. If they build up enough, as in any ZvT, you're screwed.
Dropships are the key to killing this build - there's almost no protection against a high DPS drop that can dish out tons of damage before you arrive. Although it's easier to deal with using hydraling than lurkers, drops are a lot easier for the Terran to pull off because of your lack of a spire. If the Terran in this game focused more on drops, he would easily have won.
The terran in this game had some amazing macro from my perspective, he had huge forces - he did forget supply depots and stuff, but everytime I saw his army I got really scared. My question to you guys is whether he had so many units because he delayed his third? However, just watch how those armies crumble when ensared.
I forgot to upgrade ensnare and almost lost when his second push with ~3 tanks came.
Infested Command Center
My gas differs slightly from Misrah's. I do my first gas into zergling speed to hold off any fast pushes. My next gas goes into the carapace. Third is lair, and last is hydralisk den. If you go hydralisk den before lair, you can't get the upgrades, or you'll have to delay your lair, therefore it would be a waste. I find that this is the most efficient as far as I've played so far.
Edit: Chill made fun of this build in the Cholera vs Chill showmatch! Show him wrong!!!
Just watching it now...
•The first major battle that finishes 12:00 minutes into the replay, the Terran does not have range upgraded and Zerg did. This makes a big difference because of the Ensare, marines were walking forward to fire so slowly. That was the turning point of the game. Pretty amazing what Ensare does though.
Nice replay.
I do think though that more calculated Terran play wins this game. He got behind in upgrades, and expanded late. No dropship play, as you said.
More calculated w/e race wins the game obviously. Even to a really good terran player. If he loses the game, of course you can find the flaws and say he should have done this and that. Games are usually won or lost because of flaws and capitalization. If that is not the case than the other only won or lost is build order win like perfect counters.
About drops being hard to deal with. I think drops are always hard to deal with in any zvt game. By mid-late game, drops will occur in zvt. I think by mid-late game, no matter what build zerg is doing, ALMOST most of the time, zerg should have all their tech buildings up including the spire. I don't think anyone should not build a spire when it is needed just because misrah said no spire, hydras can do the job. (i'm not sure if he even said that...or maybe he implied it)
The question is if the build can be used here and there with the other standard builds. By the way, zerg is vertile and assimilation race. so go and assimilate terran's build then beat it down.
Superior! Holy shit. I thought that you had given up on this build lol. I still don't have any good definitive replays against good opponents, but man- that was a nice game you played.
Superior, so do you feel that this build could be used at upper level play? I mean 300apm is not shabby. I tried to ask Chill if he would play this bo and then post reps- but sadly, i guess he decided not to.
Yes, I did play for a few more minutes. He drop hacked and I wanted to see what he had; I felt it was close the whole game. I don't know what level of play it can be used up to... we'll have to wait and see, and also see better players use it.
Chill said something along these lines, from what a friend told me: "I bet what Cholera is doing is some dumb, hydraling queen build used midgame that will never work.."
We should get the translation team to translate this into Korean, and try use our TL connections to get it to an S-class progamer...and then use our TL connections again to get reps off them and see how it is played on the top level.
On November 11 2008 15:18 Smurg wrote: We should get the translation team to translate this into Korean, and try use our TL connections to get it to an S-class progamer...and then use our TL connections again to get reps off them and see how it is played on the top level.
If that would ever happen, i would probably consider my life complete.
I think the easiest way to counter drops is parasiting the dropships, of course u have to face the first drop but then that dropship would be useless. Thanks for posting more replays.
Well, I tried this strategy somewhat and it worked at D level. I played a horrible sloppy game, but thankfully the Terran didn't use drops. I opened with 9pool and from there 3hatch muta from which I transitioned into hydraling queen and then Ultrahydralingqueen.
The Terran goes 2rax CC and never harasses me, just tries to move out and kill me outright, has only 1 fact, one eng bay.
I never get a good econ running, because I forgot to pump drones at the muta phase... I'm surprised I even managed to beat this guy.
I'll post more if I manage to find any Terrans on iCCup. I've been fighting 7 protoss in a row now.
On November 11 2008 21:12 Battle wrote: I think the easiest way to counter drops is parasiting the dropships, of course u have to face the first drop but then that dropship would be useless. Thanks for posting more replays.
I don't think this will work; any decent terran will immediately research restoration upon seeing parasites, especially since he has lots of medics with plenty of energy already.
The key to beating drops is to add in a spire when you have the advantage (i.e. you win your first battle, you beat his push, you delay push by broodling tanks, etc.), and have good ol placement. Keep a sunken by your mineral lines, and always check your minimap, to react as soon as you see it coming.
On November 11 2008 21:12 Battle wrote: I think the easiest way to counter drops is parasiting the dropships, of course u have to face the first drop but then that dropship would be useless. Thanks for posting more replays.
I don't think this will work; any decent terran will immediately research restoration upon seeing parasites, especially since he has lots of medics with plenty of energy already.
The key to beating drops is to add in a spire when you have the advantage (i.e. you win your first battle, you beat his push, you delay push by broodling tanks, etc.), and have good ol placement. Keep a sunken by your mineral lines, and always check your minimap, to react as soon as you see it coming.
Yes you are right, but getting the spire is not that easy till your hive is done, maybe you can face those dropships with borrowed hydras till your scourges are on the field.
What is worse than the Q word by far is the H word. A single 25 mineral zergling does more damage than a hydra in zvt. So I fail to see how getting these costly hydra upgrades, and these 25 gas hydras is saving you gas. People here should really stop deluding themselves in thinking that hydras are viable in zvt at all.
Queens? Sure, maybe, but get them by lowering your lurker count slightly, don't start getting this ridiculous unit (hydra) that cannot achieve anything in zvt.
On November 15 2008 09:55 simon311A wrote: What is worse than the Q word by far is the H word. A single 25 mineral zergling does more damage than a hydra in zvt. So I fail to see how getting these costly hydra upgrades, and these 25 gas hydras is saving you gas. People here should really stop deluding themselves in thinking that hydras are viable in zvt at all.
Queens? Sure, maybe, but get them by lowering your lurker count slightly, don't start getting this ridiculous unit (hydra) that cannot achieve anything in zvt.
Takes damage and makes it easier to flank - it is much easier and convenient moving around your hydraling forces than it is to move around lurker ling and burrow them all the time. Pure ling and ensnare is not as effective as hydraling and ensnare. Lurkerling and ensnare is too difficult to pull off a perfect flank to get their army, and regardless of ensnare lurkers can get shot down fairly quickly before they burrow. With hydraling, you bring a very large front for a Terran to deal with while ensnared.
A single 25 mineral zergling does not do as much damage as a hydra if it gets shot down before it can even reach a huge marine ball. You need the hydralisks. They seem to be viable at C level as far as it's been tested so far, and we'll see if they can be used at even higher levels.
You aren't using hydras late game, they are used as a transition in middle game to late game. 25 gas hydras and 300/300 upgrades and lings is definitely less gas heavy than 200/200 lurker upgrades and 125 gas lurkers and 11 mutas (1100/1100). You'll have more units overall with hydraling.
Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
If you left out the hydra, and replaced it with more lings, that would allow the terran to overcompensate his firebat count. He wont have to deal with hydra, and can deal with more lings quite effectively. What I notice is that once the hydra are upgraded, and made in mass, its really hard to stop with just m&m. You pretty much have to have 2 factories to push the middle. If you cannot push the middle, you are gonna lose to pure macro hydraling without much effort.
Personally, I think a nice addition to the strat is to have 4-5 lurker as well. Scout his terran army, and when he pushes out towards your nat or expo , burrow the 4-5 lurker behind his forces. When you engage him with hydraling + ensnare, odds are he is gonna panic and try and move back for better positioning. Basically, he will walk right into your lurkers.
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
On November 15 2008 10:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
If you had any amount of lings in your army, the entire terran ball would be firing. Once those lings die, you have nothing to do damage anymore.
Another thing to consider is that you'll be needing more larva to make these useless hydras.
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
2 lings = 70 hp : 50 minerals hydra = 80 hp : 75 minerals 25 gas
2 lings = 10 damage with cooldown 8 hydra = 5 damage with cooldown 15
4x damage
Of course I realize that these numbers don't mean anything if the lings can't get near the marines, but my point is that hydras do not allow you to do this since they do not increase the total longevity of your army.
On November 15 2008 10:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
If you had any amount of lings in your army, the entire terran ball would be firing. Once those lings die, you have nothing to do damage anymore.
Another thing to consider is that you'll be needing more larva to make these useless hydras.
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
2 lings = 70 hp : 50 minerals hydra = 80 hp : 75 minerals 25 gas
2 lings = 10 damage with cooldown 8 hydra = 5 damage with cooldown 15
4x damage
Of course I realize that these numbers don't mean anything if the lings can't get near the marines, but my point is that hydras do not allow you to do this since they do not increase the total longevity of your army.
How often have you tried this opening? I play terran and I can tell you from fact that 3-3 hydra ling armies are not useless, and can be REALLY hard to beat.They don't just melt like you think. You keep stating that hydras are useless, which only goes on to show that you don't really grasp alot of zvt concepts. Why not play with the strat 20-30 times, and make an educated decision, rather than just shoot it off as useless without any decent information backing you up.
On November 15 2008 10:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
If you had any amount of lings in your army, the entire terran ball would be firing. Once those lings die, you have nothing to do damage anymore.
Another thing to consider is that you'll be needing more larva to make these useless hydras.
On November 15 2008 10:56 arb wrote:
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
2 lings = 70 hp : 50 minerals hydra = 80 hp : 75 minerals 25 gas
2 lings = 10 damage with cooldown 8 hydra = 5 damage with cooldown 15
4x damage
Of course I realize that these numbers don't mean anything if the lings can't get near the marines, but my point is that hydras do not allow you to do this since they do not increase the total longevity of your army.
How often have you tried this opening? I play terran and I can tell you from fact that 3-3 hydra ling armies are not useless, and can be REALLY hard to beat.They don't just melt like you think. You keep stating that hydras are useless, which only goes on to show that you don't really grasp alot of zvt concepts. Why not play with the strat 20-30 times, and make an educated decision, rather than just shoot it off as useless without any decent information backing you up.
No thanks, I'd rather dismiss ridiculous statements right off the bat instead of wasting my time testing it. I don't even play Terran.
Hey, don't dismiss my stargate first PvP opening without testing it 20-30 times, see something wrong there?
Anyway, back on topic,
by the time you have 3-3, you should be doing ultra ling + swarm/plague, there is no better unit combination for zerg vs mnm, tanks, and vessels. I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on you to show that hydras aren't completely useless, when every calculation, every way of looking at them, results in failure.
I think that more important than the damage numbers/soaking ability/mobility (they don't get in the way of lings) is the fact that hydra are both larger than lings, and have range.
range lets you micro, which lets you force your units to be more effective.
the larger than lings is a lot better- the fact is that hydra are basically there to snipe the firebats. Firebats, even when ensnared do line splash damage, which kills the lings like no problem. sniping the firebats with hydra makes killing the T ball much easier.
On November 15 2008 13:21 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote: I think that more important than the damage numbers/soaking ability/mobility (they don't get in the way of lings) is the fact that hydra are both larger than lings, and have range.
range lets you micro, which lets you force your units to be more effective.
the larger than lings is a lot better- the fact is that hydra are basically there to snipe the firebats. Firebats, even when ensnared do line splash damage, which kills the lings like no problem. sniping the firebats with hydra makes killing the T ball much easier.
The marines will still shred lings apart without firebats though. Not only that, but sniping a bat takes 12 hydra hits. And sure hydras can fire from behind the lings, so can lurkers.
On November 15 2008 10:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
If you had any amount of lings in your army, the entire terran ball would be firing. Once those lings die, you have nothing to do damage anymore.
Another thing to consider is that you'll be needing more larva to make these useless hydras.
On November 15 2008 10:56 arb wrote:
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
2 lings = 70 hp : 50 minerals hydra = 80 hp : 75 minerals 25 gas
2 lings = 10 damage with cooldown 8 hydra = 5 damage with cooldown 15
4x damage
Of course I realize that these numbers don't mean anything if the lings can't get near the marines, but my point is that hydras do not allow you to do this since they do not increase the total longevity of your army.
How often have you tried this opening? I play terran and I can tell you from fact that 3-3 hydra ling armies are not useless, and can be REALLY hard to beat.They don't just melt like you think. You keep stating that hydras are useless, which only goes on to show that you don't really grasp alot of zvt concepts. Why not play with the strat 20-30 times, and make an educated decision, rather than just shoot it off as useless without any decent information backing you up.
No thanks, I'd rather dismiss ridiculous statements right off the bat instead of wasting my time testing it. I don't even play Terran.
Hey, don't dismiss my stargate first PvP opening without testing it 20-30 times, see something wrong there?
Anyway, back on topic,
by the time you have 3-3, you should be doing ultra ling + swarm/plague, there is no better unit combination for zerg vs mnm, tanks, and vessels. I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on you to show that hydras aren't completely useless, when every calculation, every way of looking at them, results in failure.
First off, your post is pretty weak. It's not a ridicilous statement, and it has been used at the progamer level (not this hydra / ling / ensnare build). You don't play terran, so obviously you just admitted that you don't know what you are talking about but rather just blindly making statements based on your inexperience.
Next, the difference between opening stargate first PvP, and opening 12hatch hydra ling queen, is that 1 is viable, 1 is just made up so you could troll my post. A stargate opening is obviously a bad idea, and I wouldn't be debating its usability. A 12hatch opening is standard, and allows you to transition in this build. You're trolling and its pointless.
Lastly, you are not looking at the strategy for what it is. You are utilizing the fact that a zerg can pound for pound out produce a terran player. So, the idea is to use massive amounts of hydra ling, COMBINED WITH ENSNARE. The point being, ensnare negates stim, as well as movement of both marines and medics. So basically, a terran stims his marines as he is being flanked by LARGE amounts of units. His now stimmed marines are ensnared, which makes stim alot less useful. So they all have 1 health bar missing, and stim is not helping nearly as much as it normally should. Medics are ensnared, so moving around and healing a large group of marines is more time consuming. Ensnare is the point of this build, as it creates an equal playing ground for a hydra ling army.
The strategy transitions into ultra swarm late game, like a normal zerg player would do. Your agrument that 5/3 ultras with swarm are stronger is correct. No one is debating that. The goal of the build is to transition to hive with ultra swarm tech late game like normal, the only change is that rather than a typical muta or lurker opening, hydra/ling/ensnare could be used to the same effect. It can create wins just like any other opening, and allows enough map control to transition properly into hive tech.
There has already been a replay posted of a C+ zerg using the strategy, and his thoughts about it. I don't see why I would have to "prove" that its viable, when someone has already gone ahead and posted a replay. Did you watch it? Now if you want me to post games where hydras are used against terran in general. I could do that too.
On November 15 2008 10:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
If you had any amount of lings in your army, the entire terran ball would be firing. Once those lings die, you have nothing to do damage anymore.
Another thing to consider is that you'll be needing more larva to make these useless hydras.
On November 15 2008 10:56 arb wrote:
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
2 lings = 70 hp : 50 minerals hydra = 80 hp : 75 minerals 25 gas
2 lings = 10 damage with cooldown 8 hydra = 5 damage with cooldown 15
4x damage
Of course I realize that these numbers don't mean anything if the lings can't get near the marines, but my point is that hydras do not allow you to do this since they do not increase the total longevity of your army.
How often have you tried this opening? I play terran and I can tell you from fact that 3-3 hydra ling armies are not useless, and can be REALLY hard to beat.They don't just melt like you think. You keep stating that hydras are useless, which only goes on to show that you don't really grasp alot of zvt concepts. Why not play with the strat 20-30 times, and make an educated decision, rather than just shoot it off as useless without any decent information backing you up.
No thanks, I'd rather dismiss ridiculous statements right off the bat instead of wasting my time testing it. I don't even play Terran.
Hey, don't dismiss my stargate first PvP opening without testing it 20-30 times, see something wrong there?
Anyway, back on topic,
by the time you have 3-3, you should be doing ultra ling + swarm/plague, there is no better unit combination for zerg vs mnm, tanks, and vessels. I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on you to show that hydras aren't completely useless, when every calculation, every way of looking at them, results in failure.
First off, your post is pretty weak. It's not a ridicilous statement, and it has been used at the progamer level (not this hydra / ling / ensnare build). You don't play terran, so obviously you just admitted that you don't know what you are talking about but rather just blindly making statements based on your inexperience.
Next, the difference between opening stargate first PvP, and opening 12hatch hydra ling queen, is that 1 is viable, 1 is just made up so you could troll my post. A stargate opening is obviously a bad idea, and I wouldn't be debating its usability. A 12hatch opening is standard, and allows you to transition in this build. You're trolling and its pointless.
Lastly, you are not looking at the strategy for what it is. You are utilizing the fact that a zerg can pound for pound out produce a terran player. So, the idea is to use massive amounts of hydra ling, COMBINED WITH ENSNARE. The point being, ensnare negates stim, as well as movement of both marines and medics. So basically, a terran stims his marines as he is being flanked by LARGE amounts of units. His now stimmed marines are ensnared, which makes stim alot less useful. So they all have 1 health bar missing, and stim is not helping nearly as much as it normally should. Medics are ensnared, so moving around and healing a large group of marines is more time consuming. Ensnare is the point of this build, as it creates an equal playing ground for a hydra ling army.
The strategy transitions into ultra swarm late game, like a normal zerg player would do. Your agrument that 5/3 ultras with swarm are stronger is correct. No one is debating that. The goal of the build is to transition to hive with ultra swarm tech late game like normal, the only change is that rather than a typical muta or lurker opening, hydra/ling/ensnare could be used to the same effect. It can create wins just like any other opening, and allows enough map control to transition properly into hive tech.
There has already been a replay posted of a C+ zerg using the strategy, and his thoughts about it. I don't see why I would have to "prove" that its viable, when someone has already gone ahead and posted a replay. Did you watch it? Now if you want me to post games where hydras are used against terran in general. I could do that too.
I never argued against the viability of ensnare, it was used very well in the replay. However, what makes no sense to me are these lines:
'So, the idea is to use massive amounts of hydra ling, COMBINED WITH ENSNARE.' 'Ensnare is the point of this build, as it creates an equal playing ground for a hydra ling army. '
Why is it that you want to use hydraling? I understand the gas limitations, but as I've said, I believe lurkers, just a fewer number of them, would work far better. Instead of using ensnare to equal a playing ground, why not use it to take an even playing ground and tip it to your favor? Hydraling has minimal surprise factor; the terran barely has to adjust.
In the replay, I think the Terran didn't have range for the first encounter with the hydralisks. As I stated, just because the marines in the back cannot fire at the hydralisks does not mean they cannot fire at the real damage dealers. And once the lings were gone, the hydras weak firepower showed.
There are two issues being lumped into one here. Use of ensnare, and use of hydras. Queens don't benefit hydralisks any more than other units. In fact, I would say queens would be even more effective used with lurkers.
Don't let the fact that I do not believe this is viable at all dissuade you from experimenting, I am just explaining what seems to me a huge flaw in the entire premise (the arbitrary lumping of two unrelated ideas). That replay far from convinced me of the use of hydras.
And if you have replays of hydras being used effectively in zvt, sure, post them.
So glad we have another person with a jihad going crazy in this thread. Of course, simon311A is an expert on this build, having never played it and also admits that he doesn't play T. I have more reps, of course not at the highest level of play, but i hope that it can show a few things.
Also simon311A please explain to me how your going to support luker play, with queen play on 2 and then later 3 gas with upgrades? Not to mention the fact that if you go 3 hatch lurker, you would be giving up map control and most likely get contained. If you decide to go for muta- that is even more gas, so really I am confused by your statements.
I would love to hear how a gosu like you does it. Do you have perfect hold lurker? Micro? Do you magically know where the terran is going, and have your lurkers ready in advance?
On November 15 2008 10:52 Wala.Revolution wrote: You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.
400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)
If you had any amount of lings in your army, the entire terran ball would be firing. Once those lings die, you have nothing to do damage anymore.
Another thing to consider is that you'll be needing more larva to make these useless hydras.
On November 15 2008 10:56 arb wrote:
On November 15 2008 10:45 simon311A wrote: Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.
Two lings are going to melt long before a hydralisk will i would think. And they do the same amount of damage to a marine as a zergling does..Though i think you can focus down (like dragoon micro) with hydralisks also.
EDIT : Hydralisks also used to be in alot of old ZvT's i watched.
2 lings = 70 hp : 50 minerals hydra = 80 hp : 75 minerals 25 gas
2 lings = 10 damage with cooldown 8 hydra = 5 damage with cooldown 15
4x damage
Of course I realize that these numbers don't mean anything if the lings can't get near the marines, but my point is that hydras do not allow you to do this since they do not increase the total longevity of your army.
How often have you tried this opening? I play terran and I can tell you from fact that 3-3 hydra ling armies are not useless, and can be REALLY hard to beat.They don't just melt like you think. You keep stating that hydras are useless, which only goes on to show that you don't really grasp alot of zvt concepts. Why not play with the strat 20-30 times, and make an educated decision, rather than just shoot it off as useless without any decent information backing you up.
No thanks, I'd rather dismiss ridiculous statements right off the bat instead of wasting my time testing it. I don't even play Terran.
Hey, don't dismiss my stargate first PvP opening without testing it 20-30 times, see something wrong there?
Anyway, back on topic,
by the time you have 3-3, you should be doing ultra ling + swarm/plague, there is no better unit combination for zerg vs mnm, tanks, and vessels. I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on you to show that hydras aren't completely useless, when every calculation, every way of looking at them, results in failure.
First off, your post is pretty weak. It's not a ridicilous statement, and it has been used at the progamer level (not this hydra / ling / ensnare build). You don't play terran, so obviously you just admitted that you don't know what you are talking about but rather just blindly making statements based on your inexperience.
Next, the difference between opening stargate first PvP, and opening 12hatch hydra ling queen, is that 1 is viable, 1 is just made up so you could troll my post. A stargate opening is obviously a bad idea, and I wouldn't be debating its usability. A 12hatch opening is standard, and allows you to transition in this build. You're trolling and its pointless.
Lastly, you are not looking at the strategy for what it is. You are utilizing the fact that a zerg can pound for pound out produce a terran player. So, the idea is to use massive amounts of hydra ling, COMBINED WITH ENSNARE. The point being, ensnare negates stim, as well as movement of both marines and medics. So basically, a terran stims his marines as he is being flanked by LARGE amounts of units. His now stimmed marines are ensnared, which makes stim alot less useful. So they all have 1 health bar missing, and stim is not helping nearly as much as it normally should. Medics are ensnared, so moving around and healing a large group of marines is more time consuming. Ensnare is the point of this build, as it creates an equal playing ground for a hydra ling army.
The strategy transitions into ultra swarm late game, like a normal zerg player would do. Your agrument that 5/3 ultras with swarm are stronger is correct. No one is debating that. The goal of the build is to transition to hive with ultra swarm tech late game like normal, the only change is that rather than a typical muta or lurker opening, hydra/ling/ensnare could be used to the same effect. It can create wins just like any other opening, and allows enough map control to transition properly into hive tech.
There has already been a replay posted of a C+ zerg using the strategy, and his thoughts about it. I don't see why I would have to "prove" that its viable, when someone has already gone ahead and posted a replay. Did you watch it? Now if you want me to post games where hydras are used against terran in general. I could do that too.
I never argued against the viability of ensnare, it was used very well in the replay. However, what makes no sense to me are these lines:
'So, the idea is to use massive amounts of hydra ling, COMBINED WITH ENSNARE.' 'Ensnare is the point of this build, as it creates an equal playing ground for a hydra ling army. '
Why is it that you want to use hydraling? I understand the gas limitations, but as I've said, I believe lurkers, just a fewer number of them, would work far better. Instead of using ensnare to equal a playing ground, why not use it to take an even playing ground and tip it to your favor? Hydraling has minimal surprise factor; the terran barely has to adjust.
In the replay, I think the Terran didn't have range for the first encounter with the hydralisks. As I stated, just because the marines in the back cannot fire at the hydralisks does not mean they cannot fire at the real damage dealers. And once the lings were gone, the hydras weak firepower showed.
There are two issues being lumped into one here. Use of ensnare, and use of hydras. Queens don't benefit hydralisks any more than other units. In fact, I would say queens would be even more effective used with lurkers.
Don't let the fact that I do not believe this is viable at all dissuade you from experimenting, I am just explaining what seems to me a huge flaw in the entire premise (the arbitrary lumping of two unrelated ideas). That replay far from convinced me of the use of hydras.
And if you have replays of hydras being used effectively in zvt, sure, post them.
Hi.
If I understand correctly, you're arguing that lurker/ling would be a more useful combo than hydra/ing regardless of the fact that ensnare is now in play as opposed to standard lurker/ling play. Here are my thoughts:
1. Lurkers are higher in tech and somewhat more gas intensive than mass hydra. While this isn't all that bad at first, the aim of this build isn't just to kill the terran ball, but also to have map control early, and turn the map control into extra expansion(s). This can't be done with lurker/ling, since lurkers won't come out early enough.
2. Hydras are more mobile than Lurkers, especially when upgraded. It takes around a full second from the time you hit u until the time the lurkers attack, and then you'll have to unburrow them and move them forward. Though this may be a minor point as I think about it.
3. Lurkers have way less HP/cost than hydras, and simultaneously provide great targets for irradiate, and apparently this build currently doesn't get a spire (not sure I agree with that though).
4. Hydras are gonna be way better at taking out firebats than lurkers.
That said, I'm not sure if I like the idea of hydras all that much myself. I know they're not at all worthless, but I just can't stand the idea of purchasing those hydra ups. I guess I'm still undecided on this build myself.
On November 15 2008 14:51 Misrah wrote: So glad we have another person with a jihad going crazy in this thread. Of course, simon311A is an expert on this build, having never played it and also admits that he doesn't play T. I have more reps, of course not at the highest level of play, but i hope that it can show a few things.
Also simon311A please explain to me how your going to support luker play, with queen play on 2 and then later 3 gas with upgrades? Not to mention the fact that if you go 3 hatch lurker, you would be giving up map control and most likely get contained. If you decide to go for muta- that is even more gas, so really I am confused by your statements.
I would love to hear how a gosu like you does it. Do you have perfect hold lurker? Micro? Do you magically know where the terran is going, and have your lurkers ready in advance?
Remind me, what part of your build grants you map control? Hydras? Those upgrades would finish just around when your lurker one would. Not to mention... hydras can't kill marines.
So in the first replay, your opponent sat back on 4 bunkers at his natural, missed supply depots, poorly executed build order, and trapped seige tanks, and did not meet your forces until you had ultralisks. And you're talking about map control.. ? If i learned anything from that replay, it's that the hydralisks did nothing for you.
Will watch 2nd one later.
Dromar makes a good point about the hydras having more HP per cost. Of course, you DO want your units to do things other than take a beating...
once again LOW LEVEL REPLAYS will always come from me. I suck. Thanks for pointing that out again tho. Also I am so glad that you have figured out that hydras are not cost effective to lurkers. Congrats, all zerg units are not cost effect (except maybe ultras) Zerg is a wasteful race. Zerg builds more, and spends more than ANY OTHER RACE in a game. Cocaine style uses hydras simply to hold down the map until you can switch to ultra ling late game.
Will your army get shredded? YES that is the point. Zerg armies that are hydra/ling will melt to a terran ball. But here is the catch. This build has more hatcheries and allows for more expansions. Zergs produce faster and harder than terran. So when i trade my army for killing most of yours, i can make a brand new one before you can. That way i can send another wave at you, slowing grinding you down.
Your argument that hydras are not cost effective is correct. They are not. But it doesn't matter because you are going to be powering off of 4+ expos, and because you can get a fast hive, and because you are also getting fast upgrades- allows you to quickly and easily transition to ultra.
Unfortunately this Terran goes mech instead of m&m, so we don't get to see ensnare/hydra/ling go up against the ball, but hey, they're right there before your very eyes: QUEENS.
This terran is no chump either, I'd say at least C level
EDIT: wow this is exactly how to play ZvT against mech with queens:
1) fast hydras + fast upgrades (move/speed/attack/carapace) 2) expo all over the map (5 bases by the 11-minute mark) 3) fast queens (fast enough so that the queens have 150 energy to broodling the tanks by the time terran comes with first push) 4) queens broodling tanks, hydras clean up the gols 5) super fast hive for quick defiler teching (although he didn't even really need them LOL)
The link doesn't work! Can anyone send me this replay?????
Played another one today - it was vs a C+ terran and I refined my build and actually found quite good success with a 9 pool into the build. I owned him pretty convincingly, although later I checked he was C+ but only played C level people so he probably wasn't as good as I thought. The game wasn't really good so I actually don't know if he was even close to C+ but he was like 55% C+ (vs C's). Anyone want rep?
On November 17 2008 09:57 Superiorwolf wrote: Played another one today - it was vs a C+ terran and I refined my build and actually found quite good success with a 9 pool into the build. I owned him pretty convincingly, although later I checked he was C+ but only played C level people so he probably wasn't as good as I thought. The game wasn't really good so I actually don't know if he was even close to C+ but he was like 55% C+ (vs C's). Anyone want rep?
NO suerior, i don't want to see your rep of raepage using cocaine build. Why the hell would I?
In case you didn't get the sarcasm- YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS OMG YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LINK PLZ!
Well, I rose to the level of D+ recently and tried this gamestyle again. I'm not using the BO, just playing muta harass into hydraling queen to Ultraling.
The Terran hovers between D+/C- so I was surprised I beat him since I'm just barely D+
Every battle went just as I wanted to in this game. I got good ensnares and flanks. I was sloppy with my scouting and didn't notice he had an expo up, but it didn't matter because his macro fell apart for some reason.
I'm a C zerg user, right now this season i've climbed to C- at 70%.
Haven't gotten GREAT games yet with the build, but here are some of my inputs. I haven't read the thread all too much yet.
Hydra/Ling is basically suppose to be a mini Ultra/Ling combo. Hydras are needed to lay some damange onto firebats otherwise the ling army will be slaughtered. Don't expect hydras to play a significant role, but they need to engage first and then the lings can come through and hopefully rape the Terran army. The most important part of the build seems to be +1 armor, allowing your units to "tank" a little bit more because the hardest part is doing enough damage before all your units die before getting there. Note: You still need a lot of hydras even though they don't do jack.
Mid-game gets really tough because of dropships. Its hard to contain the Terran army and you have to be VERY picky about where to fight and when. As you are occupied with that you have to worry about all that dropships are flying and killing off bases. I'm thinking a sauron zerg style or just bait expos to stall time to figure out where dropships are going and get your eco running.
I sacrifice a lot of single lings to make sure I know where the armies are at all time, it helps a lot to have speedy ovies to patrol around the map to look for dropships and have an eye on the army. I actually haven't used queens because well...queens suck and require too much micro when there's enough on my plate already with bases spread around the map, dropships, Terran ball, etc.
My favorite thing about this build is the terran has to work for his expos and then make sure you don't run around his army with your SUPERIOR mobility and snipe off expos. Then once you hit ultra/ling, it's gg because your eco is already rolling.
Just like going lurker/ling, you have to stall time to get your army big enough to compete with his, your upgrades to finish, and securing expos as soon as possible. Maybe adding drop would help a lot since he's trying to contain your army from equalizing the Terran army, you can drop quite a bit of lings to throw him off.
This is my experience with it so far. It might be a decent build dependant on map. Don't know if it will work at pro level though.
On November 18 2008 02:03 Galneryus wrote: I actually haven't used queens because well...queens suck and require too much micro when there's enough on my plate already with bases spread around the map, dropships, Terran ball, etc.
You're missing the point. Ensnare negates stim which allows you to use the hydraling in the first place. If you try to bruteforce the Terran with hydraling you're in for a lot of trouble.
Unfortunately this Terran goes mech instead of m&m, so we don't get to see ensnare/hydra/ling go up against the ball, but hey, they're right there before your very eyes: QUEENS.
This terran is no chump either, I'd say at least C level
EDIT: wow this is exactly how to play ZvT against mech with queens:
1) fast hydras + fast upgrades (move/speed/attack/carapace) 2) expo all over the map (5 bases by the 11-minute mark) 3) fast queens (fast enough so that the queens have 150 energy to broodling the tanks by the time terran comes with first push) 4) queens broodling tanks, hydras clean up the gols 5) super fast hive for quick defiler teching (although he didn't even really need them LOL)
im really sorry blasius, i downloaded and watched the rep and yes the zerg is building ONE (noticed the singular?) queen and didnt even use it at all except for late game expansion scouting, SO:
a) he just misclicked/mishotkeyed when building the singular queen b) he just wanted to show off that he can win a game while actually building a queen c) [and that would be UBERcool] he wanted his opponent to be confronted with the option of broodlings/ensnare and thereby forcing him to create additional goliaths which where raped by the mass hydras
BUT TO POINT OUT AGAIN: he didnt research any of the queens abilities, did NEVER use parasite and produced only ONE queen, so better watch the games you tell of more carefully before posting.
please dont consider this a flame post, only an encouragement to be more precise.
If you go from muta harass -> hydraling queen, why not go muta harass into muta/ling queen. Wouldn't it give you the same sort of early map control? Once you get mutas, it forces terran back into his base and by the time he comes out again, you should be able to get 2-3 queens with enough for ensnare.
It also allows for early hive play, which with map control, you should have 4 gasses anyway? just some more theorycrafting.
Unfortunately this Terran goes mech instead of m&m, so we don't get to see ensnare/hydra/ling go up against the ball, but hey, they're right there before your very eyes: QUEENS.
This terran is no chump either, I'd say at least C level
EDIT: wow this is exactly how to play ZvT against mech with queens:
1) fast hydras + fast upgrades (move/speed/attack/carapace) 2) expo all over the map (5 bases by the 11-minute mark) 3) fast queens (fast enough so that the queens have 150 energy to broodling the tanks by the time terran comes with first push) 4) queens broodling tanks, hydras clean up the gols 5) super fast hive for quick defiler teching (although he didn't even really need them LOL)
im really sorry blasius, i downloaded and watched the rep and yes the zerg is building ONE (noticed the singular?) queen and didnt even use it at all except for late game expansion scouting, SO:
a) he just misclicked/mishotkeyed when building the singular queen b) he just wanted to show off that he can win a game while actually building a queen c) [and that would be UBERcool] he wanted his opponent to be confronted with the option of broodlings/ensnare and thereby forcing him to create additional goliaths which where raped by the mass hydras
BUT TO POINT OUT AGAIN: he didnt research any of the queens abilities, did NEVER use parasite and produced only ONE queen, so better watch the games you tell of more carefully before posting.
please dont consider this a flame post, only an encouragement to be more precise.
hf
This is a blatant lie. Did you even watch the replay? He built at least 4 or 5 queens, and broodling'd all of the tanks during the first push.
"he didnt research any of the queens abilities" wtf this is another blatant lie as I already said he used broodling multiple times.
Don't spout garbage out of your mouth unless you actually know what you're talking about. You are an idiot, and you suck at watching replays. Watch the replay again, and this time PAY ATTENTION.
And for F13: I uploaded the rep to Fighterreplays:
On November 18 2008 05:00 Shado. wrote: If you go from muta harass -> hydraling queen, why not go muta harass into muta/ling queen. Wouldn't it give you the same sort of early map control? Once you get mutas, it forces terran back into his base and by the time he comes out again, you should be able to get 2-3 queens with enough for ensnare.
It also allows for early hive play, which with map control, you should have 4 gasses anyway? just some more theorycrafting.
One problem- Muta get raped by irrad
No two ways about it. Also if your going for a muta opening, you are playing 3 hatch standard. You just wont have enough hatcheries or economy to produce mass ling and mass muta (expensive at 100/100) Also no you wouldn't have early game map control because as well all know, pure ling vs M&M with bats doesn't end to well. Also considering the fact that you want to try and save money for economy, and also considering that you are trying to save for muta- i just don't see how this can work economically.
ok well i have another replay, I do get dropped- i add a spire however i do so a bit late. The terran is D+ C- and i think that he plays fairly well. I get a huge advantage early game, and i probably could have finished him much earlier. My queen use was again lacking- some of them had gotten killed in a careless mistake by me. Consequently enough i had all of the queen upgrades but didn't build anymore. LOL
Anyway this is an interesting game IMO because the terran is frantically trying to run around and shut down my expos. So he is falling right into this type of play. He breaks his ball up multiple times, and my more mobile army can run around and crush him easily.
EDIT AND DISCLAIMER: CONSIDER ALL I SAID CRAP CUZ I JUST REALIZED I MESSED UP TWO DIFFERENT DOWNLOADS, TOTALLY MY FAULT, I HEREBY WANT TO EXPRESS MY DEEPEST APOLOGIES FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDINGS AND THE CAPSLOCK
just for consistancy i let the rest be unedited, sorry again...
Unfortunately this Terran goes mech instead of m&m, so we don't get to see ensnare/hydra/ling go up against the ball, but hey, they're right there before your very eyes: QUEENS.
This terran is no chump either, I'd say at least C level
EDIT: wow this is exactly how to play ZvT against mech with queens:
1) fast hydras + fast upgrades (move/speed/attack/carapace) 2) expo all over the map (5 bases by the 11-minute mark) 3) fast queens (fast enough so that the queens have 150 energy to broodling the tanks by the time terran comes with first push) 4) queens broodling tanks, hydras clean up the gols 5) super fast hive for quick defiler teching (although he didn't even really need them LOL)
im really sorry blasius, i downloaded and watched the rep and yes the zerg is building ONE (noticed the singular?) queen and didnt even use it at all except for late game expansion scouting, SO:
a) he just misclicked/mishotkeyed when building the singular queen b) he just wanted to show off that he can win a game while actually building a queen c) [and that would be UBERcool] he wanted his opponent to be confronted with the option of broodlings/ensnare and thereby forcing him to create additional goliaths which where raped by the mass hydras
BUT TO POINT OUT AGAIN: he didnt research any of the queens abilities, did NEVER use parasite and produced only ONE queen, so better watch the games you tell of more carefully before posting.
please dont consider this a flame post, only an encouragement to be more precise.
hf
This is a blatant lie. Did you even watch the replay? He built at least 4 or 5 queens, and broodling'd all of the tanks during the first push.
"he didnt research any of the queens abilities" wtf this is another blatant lie as I already said he used broodling multiple times.
Don't spout garbage out of your mouth unless you actually know what you're talking about. You are an idiot, and you suck at watching replays. Watch the replay again, and this time PAY ATTENTION.
And for F13: I uploaded the rep to Fighterreplays:
so you are not talking about 1568268If_ClassicEver)Z(Fai.rep suddenly? cuz thats the replay your first link pointed to and it is EXACTLY as i described....
again please dont consider this a flame post, and clarify when accusing me of lying because that was the replay you linked to first afaik...
if i messed up anything i am really sorry but that replay is mech-build (check) on bluestorm with mass hydra(check) late almost unnecessary defiler usage(check) but only one unused queen (no check)....
A thought- if you have enough queens, could you ensnare his workers to slow down mining as a form of harass? It clearly wouldn't be as effective as mutas or a lurker drop, but it might make a difference, especially if he has any unsaturated bases.
Tooplark, I don't think this would be an efficient use of mana. With some rough math... An ensnared worker makes around 2.5 trips to a mineral patch instead of 3. So let's say each ensnared worker losses your opponent 4 minerals. If you hit around 10 workers, you are only setting your opponent back around 40 minerals.
On November 25 2008 05:20 oki wrote: Tooplark, I don't think this would be an efficient use of mana. With some rough math... An ensnared worker makes around 2.5 trips to a mineral patch instead of 3. So let's say each ensnared worker losses your opponent 4 minerals. If you hit around 10 workers, you are only setting your opponent back around 40 minerals.
agree, i think he set himself up excellently when flash's army came. However, that attack was really really ugly and I think he could have done even more dmg than he did with it.
I just wish that some "Good" players (ie B+ and up) would try this build, or at least give a look at it. Right now, me and only a few others are the only proponents of the build. I suck, so it doesn't matter how i play with this build, and as far as i know Superior Wolf is the "best" (icup rank wise) to actually try this strat, and find succsess.
Basically i am throwing out a plea, will some great players try this? I think that it has a chance to be viable. I can add more replays, but once again- no one seems to care. My skill level is far to low, and i can show nothing.
The idea behind the queen use was to mass lings and a few lurks, not going muta, then do a hanbang and defeat most of Flash's army, then finish it with Ultra. He used queens to save gas for his Ultra army. However, he didn't flank Flash's army properly and didn't do maximum damage. He was really unlucky with that attack.
The map is Andromeda, which means the Terran is going to pump a literal fuckton of units at a fast pace. Queens work better when there is a small amount of marimedi to ensnare. It is very hard to ensnare a large blob of marimedi and even harder to macro enough troops to kill the group while ensnared.
And as we saw, the queens weren't of much use later on when his army was moving around. It is very, very hard to ensnare a moving army. They never seem to clump well enough and your vision is so poor.
But here is what I'm suggesting inspired by hyvaa's play.
Queens have a slight timing window before defilers and after muta harass... at least on a map that the Terran doesn't get a free 3rd base. At this time the Terran army is small enough to be ensnared with just one or two queens and you might very well do an attack like hyvaa did. I'm talking about using a queen and then doing a lurkling attack. After this, you can switch to defiler play. This attack could potentially reduce the Terran mass and allow victory for you further in the game when you use defilers.
That being said, I do not think hydras have any place in ZvT, except to morph them into lurkers.
In the game, lurkers didn't do that much damage. In this build, hydras would be used instead. Would hydras do more damage instead of using lurkers since with the resources of 4 lurkers, you can pretty much get 8 hydras instead and save some gas for more ultras.
I just think hydras should not be totally cast away from ZvT without a thought. Since I think good Hydra-micro can change the whole match up. It's hard for zerg to break into a nat mid-game, but hydras seem to make it a lot easier (i.e. taking out bunkers/buildings and even ledge seige tanks). Also, I like hydras range so you can aggravate the terran army to attack you even when he doesn't want to (i.e. when you have the positioning or army advantage) If he doesn't engage, your hydras gets do deal damage and weaken their army.
Hyvaa wasn't just unlucky, his flanking was outright terrible. Even I could have done that aspect better! The flanking sucked repeatedly, not only on the first large attack.
Also, how often did Flash take out the expo with his shuttle, arriving on the same flight path everytime?
Also Hyvaa made not way enough scourges until too late, and the scourge use itself was awful.
Please also note how he repeatedly failed to remove irradiated units from his control groups.
Hyvaa had no map control whatsoever after the first big battle
How would the game have gone differently in more capable hands!
Regarding thoughts of village_idiot:
I think the timing window for queens is larger, as queens and energy upgrade are quite cheap, with 3 or 4 you get a lot of ensnares. Also, I think good ensnaring of bigger balls is quite doable if queens flank as well (contrary to the way Hyvaa used them).
Also, Hyvaa did not get to use queens late game as he lost them all quickly due to irradiates. The vessels definitely were a problem, and need to be dealt with. Originally I promoted massing hydra, but currently my opinion (after some games against better opponents, were I played badly, though) I am unsure, as hydra just seem to be to weak in terms of damage vs. marines. So either mix in just enough hydra to deter vessels, or play a more classic lurker/ling with scourge.
In any case I think this build fares better on maps with more open ground (such as python) for setting up flanks, locating the enemy army and good use of ensare.
I think Queens are pretty useful, especially at amateur level, where your macro and scouting won't be perfect, and spending the money for even parasite is a good deal.
parasite is free, the problem wasnt the unit mix or the map, the problem was the flank, u cant attack with 6 groups of units without flanking and leting his marines escape even witout ensare of your lurkers, that was game right there but hyvva throwed it away.
I think that this game shows how viable the queens are as a midgame strat, even at a high level. the problem wasn't the queens, it was the fail of the flanks.
But if this become a popular strat, then all the T's would just scan ahead and spread it's army ball a little when it sees queensX_X Especially with those vessels the T would have good vision and good luck with flanking:O
Also, after watching the hyvaa vs flash game again, another problem for the Z comes to mind. Hyvaa saved larvas for "fake mutas" at his main near his spire, so Flash would scan that and assume normal muta harass. However, a good way to counter this is to spend another 50 comsat energy and scan the zerg 2nd and 3rd hatch, to see that hyvaa was indeed making shitloads of lings+lurk there. Then the T simply forgoes turrets, and mass even more MnM. I'd like to see a zerg beat back 50+ MnM with tank/vessel support with only hydraling.
And I want to be the zerg to do it. ROFL just a dream -.-
The window of the queen is before science vessels so therefore no T will not have good vision. Besides, terran is suppose to be spreading their units anyway regardless since fighting against lurkers...
I think terran keeps it's army as a ball to stay strong = good for ensnare terran keeps it's army spread out = weak and good for hydras to just come in at certain angles and pick the whole army apart
On December 04 2008 18:07 TJcan wrote: But if this become a popular strat, then all the T's would just scan ahead and spread it's army ball a little when it sees queensX_X Especially with those vessels the T would have good vision and good luck with flanking:O
This is what you want to happen, if you can break and spread the terran ball, the zerg hydraling is going to have the advantage. Your allowing the numerically superior zerg army get a larger surface area on your army. So really, you are accomplishing the whole point of flanking for us.
As for magic boxes:
no, i don't believe so. However in the hyvaa game he was kind of dumb, and didn't target his ensnare on a specific unit of flashes. He just shot them. So they were not as accurate.
On December 04 2008 18:22 Rucky wrote: And I want to be the zerg to do it. ROFL just a dream -.-
The window of the queen is before science vessels so therefore no T will not have good vision. Besides, terran is suppose to be spreading their units anyway regardless since fighting against lurkers...
I think terran keeps it's army as a ball to stay strong = good for ensnare terran keeps it's army spread out = weak and good for hydras to just come in at certain angles and pick the whole army apart
mostly true and agreed with. one nitpick- this strat still holds between when sci vessels come out and when defilers come out- ensnare works well on sci vessels in groups, becuase then you can scourge them. ultra/ling is yet another example of the zerg army being more mobile than the t army, and you can use ensnare to your advantage as well.
On December 04 2008 11:18 GHOSTCLAW wrote: I think that this game shows how viable the queens are as a midgame strat, even at a high level. the problem wasn't the queens, it was the fail of the flanks.
I think his flanks and micro at that point might of been so awful because he wasn't used to also managing queens (like just about all Z players aren't).
Personally I think that lurkers aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be. However this zerg on coke it still interesting.
My personal thought is why dont you do muta/ling with queens instead of hydra/ling. My thinking being that if you do a 2 hatch or 3 hatch muta build you can somewhat cover the terran timing push(the traditional one where he moves out after FE) where as I don't see you having a solid counter to that push until queens come out with ensnare which would be similar timing as skipping muta into straight lurker. People nowadays don't skip into straight lurker because it comes a little late and I see a good terran taking this push when you don't have your queens yet.
But you should consider a muta/ling + queens idea its similar covers the timing a bit, forces turrets and is more mobile.
Q: why don't you do muta/ling with queens instead of hydra/ling? A: muta cost 25 more min and 75 more gas. hydra/ling is use to stall for time with contains, expo kills, and back stab threats. With the extra min and gas saved, you can go early hive. Building 12 hydras instead of 12 mutas will give a surplus of 900 gas. Potential for 4 ultras.
Also, hydras go along with ensnare better than mutas do. a group of marines with ensnare is still a threat to mutas because of their shorter range. mutas will die as they try to pick off marines. hydras have a greater range and can pick off marines without the marines in the row behind attacking them. As ensnared marines run away, hydras can give chase better. (hydra micro) Hydra range = 4/5upg ; Marine range = 4/5upg (interesting to see some kind of fast hydra upg rush since 1rax expand = later acad = later upgrades [ people usually stim first then range too] Hydra range 5 vs marine range 4 THAT I LIKE TO SEE
I'm just giving the answer to the question why this build uses hydra/ling. I'm not saying it's better than muta/ling.
Also, the timing would change. I heavily doubt that you could come out with muta AND queens + ensnare at a useful timing with also useful muta numbers.
I'm thinking about doing the standard muta timing and getting 9-11 muta then adding queens nest.
@Rucky
Um you have a point that hydras save gas. However I feel that muta/ling will infact benifit alot from ensnare, hydra/ling cannot stop the timing push, 12 hydra's are not nearly as effective as 12 muta's and muta/ling is still very mobile so it definetly can still track down expansions and threaten backstabs. Also it forces turrets.
These are just my personal opinions and may not be correct.
There is a strong chance to deplete the medic energy if the Z is constantly stalling with either muta or lings or whatever possible at the time of the T push or before. The idea is to have the medics with low or no E when the Queens throw down the ensnare and the Z army moves in.
On December 05 2008 19:00 WhenHellfreezes wrote: @Metaspace
I'm thinking about doing the standard muta timing and getting 9-11 muta then adding queens nest.
@Rucky
Um you have a point that hydras save gas. However I feel that muta/ling will infact benifit alot from ensnare, hydra/ling cannot stop the timing push, 12 hydra's are not nearly as effective as 12 muta's and muta/ling is still very mobile so it definetly can still track down expansions and threaten backstabs. Also it forces turrets.
These are just my personal opinions and may not be correct.
Very true Irradiate would hurt. Possible solution would be that you don't have to always stack your muta's and once SV's roll around you can just unstack them from there on out. Though unstacked muta's aren't as strong against mnm. I still think its more viable than hydra ling.
On December 06 2008 02:20 WhenHellfreezes wrote: Very true Irradiate would hurt. Possible solution would be that you don't have to always stack your muta's and once SV's roll around you can just unstack them from there on out. Though unstacked muta's aren't as strong against mnm. I still think its more viable than hydra ling.
maybe, maybe not. try it, come back, and post reps
Just as theory, I think that forcing them to build turrets is nice, especially at a high level, but you're going to force the queens with ensnare to come out after sci vessels pop. You're basically changing the window of timing for the T. At that point, queens are just an alternative to mass lurkers, or macro timing savior style. We're not talking about openings anymore, we're talking about playing styles.
to go further back in the thread, we were using hydra/ling because we built an extra hat to get better econ, which made us have more larve. The nice thing about 3 hat muta, and what makes it so common, is that you have 100% larve usage between the beginning of the game, all the way through the scouting that you get with the 3 hat muta (and then you adapt). By getting that fourth hat in this build, you can use the same mins/gas to build more hydra ling. you can't go just ling because of firebats, and hydra are ranged, which is nice.
As i said before though, I'm pretty sure it's a gameplay call, so show us with reps
On December 06 2008 02:20 WhenHellfreezes wrote: Very true Irradiate would hurt. Possible solution would be that you don't have to always stack your muta's and once SV's roll around you can just unstack them from there on out. Though unstacked muta's aren't as strong against mnm. I still think its more viable than hydra ling.
Actually, unstacked mutas are worthless against mnm because you can't focus fire due to Mutas short attack range. (Unless of course you have an overwhelming amount of Mutas, in which case the game is probably already over for the T player.) Anyway, have you ever tried to keep air units unstacked? They love to stack. Absolutely love it. It helps keep them warm at night.
So i have still been tinkering around with this build. I have come up with a new bo- and will provide a rep. I accidently did the rep in SC vanilla, and it's against a comp. But what is important to look at is the timings. So ya. Bo goes like this
-12hatch -11pool -13hatch -8ling Done 18/18 -18 hatch -17 gas -16 overlord -17drone -18drone -19drone First 100 gas ling speed Through down an evo chamber next 150 gas +1 carapace next 50 gas start den when den is 50/70 % start next gas -lair? Still working on the most appropriate timing -when den pops, get RANGE -after range speed - when +1 carapace compleates start +2 -lair pop, start Qnest -Qnest pop start ensnare
Aside from hyvaa generally being a subpar player I'm not sure why he chose cross positions on Andromeda of all maps to try it on. Seems like you'd want a less open map so that it's harder for the terran's army to just run away whenever he gets ensnared (as flash frequently did).
On December 07 2008 18:39 Crunchums wrote: Aside from hyvaa generally being a subpar player I'm not sure why he chose cross positions on Andromeda of all maps to try it on. Seems like you'd want a less open map so that it's harder for the terran's army to just run away whenever he gets ensnared (as flash frequently did).
it forced flash to go through the middle of the map, which should allow you to surround much easier.
I'm a new member here even though I've been playing bw for years. Anyways I'm excited to try this strategy out but I'd like to receive some constructive feedback about an opinion of mine concerning the mentality and style of this strategy before I work more with it.
I'd like to hear from others why lurkers can't become a formidable form of map control once you do get defilers. In particular, why transition into ultra/ling when this midgame approach seems to naturally transition into hydra/lurk/defiler, which is a pretty common zerg late game unit composition for pros and amateurs alike; regardless of queens. Of course, this tech path may not be chosen depending on the number of tanks one snipes early on.
Many have said that hydras don't have synergy with darkswarm but I beg to differ. The trick is to cast darkswarm where you want your hydras and lurkers to go, not on top of the terran ball like you would with ultra/ling. Such darkswarms forces flanks that mnm, vessels, and even tanks (less than critical) can not engage. And what better way to pick off those retreating units than with hydra's range? Especially if the retreating mnm are crippled with ensnare or plague. Usually you can't do too much damage before you get plague, but T just can't do anything to gain mapcontrol. Just more time for you to upgrade and expo. Because of how slow tanks are, you can also use your hydras, lurkers and defilers to split his main expos from his new expos. This can be devastating to the Ts that were smart enough to not get caught out of position ealier with ensnare and decide to play the macro game. A good example was one of the jaedong vs. flash reps. It was played on fantasy and flash's sn was goldenmouse.
The counter to the above composition of course is mass tanks. Although even before finishing upgrading lurker, darkswarm and lings alone can rip those few precious sieged up tanks a new one. Usually Ts start working for a more SK like unit composition after they see you have darkswarm anyways. I'm not too sure about broodling yet, but if it works out well in the long run, in theory it'd be a waste for T to keep up tank production. Also in really late game play, where a ton of sieged tanks are layed out everywhere, zergling bombs can be really nasty too when combined with pincer attacks.
My 2 cents worth. I hope to spark some conversation at the very least.
There are not few people who deem hydra/lurk/defiler too expensive in gas. Perhaps this combo could be viable with help of ensnare, but I doubt it.
Hydras die faster than you can blink vs. tanks - even under dark swarm (given enough tanks), due to splash and (usually) compact hydra groups. You'd then need lings to take out tanks, but marines guarding them will defend well unless you cast dark swarm there, too - sounds a bit much to me really.
I am afraid this approach would only work IMO if you are so far ahead economically that any one would win.
Concerning use of broodling, I have posted (way) above that for me, it does not seem viable from the games I played, because even if you get to a situation where you have like 6 or 7 well charged queens (rather rare), all you can do is broodling 6 tanks (at most! and what about Ensnare then), which in late(r) game does help but is not nearly enough to take out sufficient tank numbers when T logically goes tank heavy vs. your hydras.
yea metaspace is correct. if the guy is going pure m&m/ vessel, then sure, dark swarm will help your hydras. however, heres the thing, plague compliments hydras SO MUCH better. the combination plague/ hydra is really, really awesome. if you can throw both, by all means do it, but if you have a hydralisk army you should almost never throw dark swarm at the expense of plague.
It's been said earlier that the timing window for queens is rather early mid game. Then you transition to early hive. So queens are not useful late game for what it can do, which is broodling a couple of tanks when the terran ball is so huge. But in early mid game when terran pushes out with only 2-3 tanks, broodling those tanks and ensnare the mm. NOW that is very useful. Back to the drawing board for terran.
Use queens when they're useful i.e. when the army is smaller and losing tanks actually hurt.
I'm actually working on zerg build myself that involves hydras and queens, but less Misrah style. Since his style asks for more hatches and economy in the beginning before getting hydras and ensnare, it misses the timing window of when it is useful and give terran too much time. A substantial terran army at that point is too big for ensnare hydra ling.
On December 10 2008 20:22 Liquid`Drone wrote: queens are extremely useful lategame. broodling is not, ensnare is. ensnare never stops to be useful, broodling is virtually never useful.
If they choose to go something involving 2 fact, and you scout it, going broodling can help, because it forces better army control from the T. If they leave their tanks undefended, you can get them, because queens are really pretty fast.
it's probably the only case where getting broodling first *might* be more effective than ensnare first. the tough part is scouting it.
There are not few people who deem hydra/lurk/defiler too expensive in gas. Perhaps this combo could be viable with help of ensnare, but I doubt it.
I'd like to converse with anyone who believes this to be true. For if it is, this alone will undoubtedly show the ignorance in my thinking process and experience. I'm not stubornly rejecting that point for I don't have that much experience with it. However, at the moment I believe that hydra/lurk/defiler is much less gas intensive than ultra/ling especially if you didn't have the ultra ling upgrades to begin the late game phase with.
I think it'd be a good idea for me and anyone else who is interested to again watch the only flash vs jaedong game posted here (easy to search). I believe Jaedong stayed on 3 gas until he was winning. He even got a min only before getting a 4th gas which leads to the following point.
In my experience, hydra/lurker/defiler is in fact very mineral intensive. I've found that I've devoted more than half my larvae to zerglings just by how much more critical defilers are here compared to a massive ultra army. (not entirely sure if this is true but I do agree with you that without pulling back into darkswarm and even further if enough tanks are around, that hydra's die rediculously fastn even with gosu flanks late game.). I spend a lot less gas on gas intensive units given that irradiate raids are much more difficult to pull off against this unit composition. Saving gas by forcing your opponent to go heavy tanks instead of mass death orbs is again part of the strength of this build especially given how gas intensive scourge are.
It makes sense to think, "wait a minute, hydra, lurks and defilers are all really gas intensive." Its true, but 3 gas alone is optimal to support mass lurk/defiler play anyways and I'm not even talking about mass lurk. I'm talking about just enough lurks and a good enough number of hydras to seriously discourage your opponent from regaining map control with anything sort of sk build.
On December 10 2008 18:31 Metaspace wrote:
Hydras die faster than you can blink vs. tanks - even under dark swarm (given enough tanks), due to splash and (usually) compact hydra groups. You'd then need lings to take out tanks, but marines guarding them will defend well unless you cast dark swarm there, too - sounds a bit much to me really.
The point I made earlier on is that going lurker/hydra tech may not be viable depending on how many tanks you can snipe early on with darkswarm. This isn't a hard dependency to fulfill though for the very reason sk terran starts becoming necessary once darkswarm completes. It is just too easy to snipe those initial tanks. They literally can't siege vs any zerg with defilers. Usually T invests in those early tanks not to reach critical mass, but to push for the win before darkswarm comes out.
This is why I believe hydra/lurk would be a fantastic transition for this bo. It very much requires T to further his immobility against you with expensive units whether or not he wants to. And if he tries to counter you with tanks after losing the first batch of them, there will always be a large timing where his tanks are very vulnerable to you. Even while going hydra/defiler/lurk, you tend to have a ton of lings still. If he can't reach critical mass before plague gets researched, he probably won't have a chance for the rest of the game due to how easy it is to snipe 1hp tanks with hydras.
If you couldn't do enough damage to his tanks early on, then yes, hydras slowly become useless under dark swarm like you said, and ultra/ling makes a lot more sense. In the Jaedong vs Flash rep, Jaedong instantly started teching hydra upgrades as soon as his lings pounced on flash's 5-6 siege tanks trying to unsiege and not a moment before. Flash kept trying to build seige tanks with very little profit coming from the few he had out until plague and hydras massacred the rines and made the rest of lone tanks easy picking for the hydras.
On December 10 2008 18:31 Metaspace wrote:
Concerning use of broodling, I have posted (way) above that for me, it does not seem viable from the games I played, because even if you get to a situation where you have like 6 or 7 well charged queens (rather rare), all you can do is broodling 6 tanks (at most! and what about Ensnare then), which in late(r) game does help but is not nearly enough to take out sufficient tank numbers when T logically goes tank heavy vs. your hydras.
I fully agree with you here. I'm not a big fan of broodling. All I said before is that if broodling did work, I'm sure it'd work wonders. Kind of like how the much less energy expensive irradate works wonders on our expensive ultras.
On December 10 2008 18:31 Metaspace wrote:
however, here's the thing, plague compliments hydras SO MUCH better. the combination plague/ hydra is really, really awesome. if you can throw both, by all means do it, but if you have a hydralisk army you should almost never throw dark swarm at the expense of plague.
Agreed, though in my mind, once you get plague, assuming T hasn't done too much economic damage to you and assuming he isn't that much better than you, the game should already be over. Its much harder for T to micro against plague than it is for us to use it. My point I tried to make with my earlier post is that although you can't do much damage against T with darkswarm and hydra's, its nigh impossible for the T to take back map control from you until the plague upgrade completes.
Well I think we are too much theorycrafting here. We'd need some solid experience to verify your theory.
That being said (and me being at work, not able to play *g*), a weak point I believe to see in your theory is the assumption of a SK build.
A decent T will by mid-game have realized that you are not playing classic, and (according to my experience with test games) stop or not even start going mass vessel, and instead make more factories, and pump tanks - transitioning into a more TvP kind of build (I even saw vultures in one game).
So, killing his "initial" tanks did not put me in any kind of position you hope for.
Anyway, against this response, I found that, unsurprisingly, hydralinglurk had no chance to shred a sieged ball; Ensnare doesnt help much, too (no effect on tanks). Like in PvT, I tried to take on his army while moving, but in comparison to P, my Z army had not enough punch to take out enough of the T before his tanks were sieged.
Defilers surely help in this setup, but so do ultras, and they are much less susceptible to bad micro, and with ultras, you also do not need lurkers (I totally skip them with the Misrah build) and everything that is connected to them (suck vs. tanks without swarm, bad mobility, prone to mistakes costing you the battle etc.).
So resource-wise, both approaches do not differ much IMHO, while the ultra version is much easier to control, and has better mobility.
Fair enough, I think you are right. Although, is it really possible for T to transition into metal like that? Especially given that he probably is 0-0 by that point. Also, is going into metal that great of an idea given that the transition will take a lot of time? I mean, you'll probably naturally take more expos when he isn't pressuring you as it is which is generally the preferred counter to metal anyways. I mean we're talking about after the push before defilers. Which by that point, T has something like 5 rax and 2 fact.
On December 11 2008 17:34 Lucristia wrote: Fair enough, I think you are right. Although, is it really possible for T to transition into metal like that? Especially given that he probably is 0-0 by that point. Also, is going into metal that great of an idea given that the transition will take a lot of time? I mean, you'll probably naturally take more expos when he isn't pressuring you as it is which is generally the preferred counter to metal anyways. I mean we're talking about after the push before defilers. Which by that point, T has something like 5 rax and 2 fact.
He's not talking about a full metal build, he's talking about bio supported by more tanks than vessels.
Even off of two facts, with good macro, he'll have enough tanks to make your hydra-ling relatively useless.
Ensnare is only good if you already have an advantage. It's only useful when the terran is moving, or is forced to move/retreat due to your superior numbers. Combined with swarm and plague, it would be absolutely amazing, but on its own, it has a limited amount of usefulness, as it does very little in limiting the damage output MnM has.
it doesn't fully negate it. There have been several talks about it. It negates the speed stim gives, but only partially the firing rate stim gives (around 20% iirc).
On December 12 2008 22:16 PePe QuiCoSE wrote: it doesn't fully negate it. There have been several talks about it. It negates the speed stim gives, but only partially the firing rate stim gives (around 20% iirc).
No, stim doubles the firing rate of a marine. When an ensnared marine is stimmed it moves at the speed of an unstimmed marine and fires slightly faster than an unstimmed marine.
You know, I think if this really succeeds, I find that a standard TvP with the exception of more goliaths woul be a viable counter to this build.
Why I think this way is because of the amount of mech that you need early on. Getting vultures with mines will really slow down hydras because its really not likely that a zerg will bring an overlord all the time with the army. And goliaths can melt queens pretty good with decent range too.
No, mech is not viable in all maps and scouting will count a big role for both races. Since this build isn't standard, as well as mech, you'll die if you can't execute mech correctly.
On December 13 2008 00:00 JMave wrote: You know, I think if this really succeeds, I find that a standard TvP with the exception of more goliaths woul be a viable counter to this build.
Why I think this way is because of the amount of mech that you need early on. Getting vultures with mines will really slow down hydras because its really not likely that a zerg will bring an overlord all the time with the army. And goliaths can melt queens pretty good with decent range too.
Just saying this out of me being a nubzor.
Keep in mind that 6 hydras on a-move will mow down spider mines no problem (unless there's a lot in one small area, I guess, in which case you may need 9 or something). No ovie needed. Also, isn't mass hydra/ling a good counter to mech? Especially goliath heavy mech.
edit: alternatively, you could stream a few lings across the map for cheap mine removal. Point is, I don't think mines are a great idea unless you can hit lurkers or ultras with them.
Personally mech is one of the worst things a terran could do to counter this build. Zerg is going to have mass hatch, and early upgrades. If the zerg player is noticing that T is getting to tank heavy, a switch to mutas would defiantly be in order- but other than that- mass hydra ling will handle just about any mech. Also if need be, you can always have your plethora of queens shoot some brood lings, to try and keep a handle on the tank numbers.
I've got a replay based on my own build and strategy idea. It is to use hydra and lings to contain then macro up rather than macro up and build just enough to defend. I feel that when zerg macro's up, terran is given too much time and free of pressure. And with the 4 hatch start from misrah's build, you can't really get a third as fast. Since you're the one defending and terran is attacking.
Let's not get into my build, since this is about misrah's build. This replay can help support some issues that are coming up with terran drops. I find that with queens and lings spread all over the map, it is easy to see where the dropships are and coming from. Speedlings are good to fight off drops since it takes time to drop. Hydras are good fighting against a completed drop which hapened in my game. Since with lurker lings, mm can just run from lurkers and mow down lings. With hydras, running is impossible since hydras are so mobile. Also hydras can just pick off 1 marine at a time.
Controversy of hydras vs mm. I sincerely think hydras are good. Since in all the hydra micro pros get in zvp nowadays, i really want to see some good hydra micro against terran. Hydras can snipe. Engaging early army hydras are just perfect, killing firebats and even medics with a group of hydras in 1 shot. marines are so weak without medics, it's not even funny.
Another issue besides drops are engaging the terran mid-game ball. In standard, zerg can either kill the midgame ball with a huge lurker ling flank which costs a lot of resources or slowly reburrow back and stall time until defilers to save the day. Ensnare is great for stalling. The way i defeateted the terran ball is to ensnare and flank with mutas lurkers hydras and lings.
This goes back to my own build and the critique of misrah's build. Hydras are good, but only in the beginning which misrah's build misses teh timing window for with his macro oriented upgrades in missle attack before hydra upgrades or queen upgrades. I don't believe upgrade matters in early game and by late game, you won't be using hydras. In mid game, no matter how you see it, either lurkers or mutas have to be used with the hydraling to kill the terran ball unless your hydra ling army is just crazy huge.
Overall, I think that misrah's build is hard to execute and very macro oriented. It is pretty unsafe to early bunker rushes, or sunken break builds. It seems to work well in the beginning versus 1 rax FE, but right after terran bunkers up, terran can macro up their ball pretty well and run over the zerg.
Oh yea the replay: http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/3c66b8 Totally different build. Totally different mindset. Totally different idea/strategy behind the way the game should be played out. Includes hydraling and ensnare so there is still relevance.
On December 15 2008 18:51 Rucky wrote: I've got a replay based on my own build and strategy idea. It is to use hydra and lings to contain then macro up rather than macro up and build just enough to defend. I feel that when zerg macro's up, terran is given too much time and free of pressure. And with the 4 hatch start from misrah's build, you can't really get a third as fast. Since you're the one defending and terran is attacking.
Let's not get into my build, since this is about misrah's build. This replay can help support some issues that are coming up with terran drops. I find that with queens and lings spread all over the map, it is easy to see where the dropships are and coming from. Speedlings are good to fight off drops since it takes time to drop. Hydras are good fighting against a completed drop which hapened in my game. Since with lurker lings, mm can just run from lurkers and mow down lings. With hydras, running is impossible since hydras are so mobile. Also hydras can just pick off 1 marine at a time.
Controversy of hydras vs mm. I sincerely think hydras are good. Since in all the hydra micro pros get in zvp nowadays, i really want to see some good hydra micro against terran. Hydras can snipe. Engaging early army hydras are just perfect, killing firebats and even medics with a group of hydras in 1 shot. marines are so weak without medics, it's not even funny.
Another issue besides drops are engaging the terran mid-game ball. In standard, zerg can either kill the midgame ball with a huge lurker ling flank which costs a lot of resources or slowly reburrow back and stall time until defilers to save the day. Ensnare is great for stalling. The way i defeateted the terran ball is to ensnare and flank with mutas lurkers hydras and lings.
This goes back to my own build and the critique of misrah's build. Hydras are good, but only in the beginning which misrah's build misses teh timing window for with his macro oriented upgrades in missle attack before hydra upgrades or queen upgrades. I don't believe upgrade matters in early game and by late game, you won't be using hydras. In mid game, no matter how you see it, either lurkers or mutas have to be used with the hydraling to kill the terran ball unless your hydra ling army is just crazy huge.
Overall, I think that misrah's build is hard to execute and very macro oriented. It is pretty unsafe to early bunker rushes, or sunken break builds. It seems to work well in the beginning versus 1 rax FE, but right after terran bunkers up, terran can macro up their ball pretty well and run over the zerg.
Oh yea the replay: http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/3c66b8 Totally different build. Totally different mindset. Totally different idea/strategy behind the way the game should be played out. Includes hydraling and ensnare so there is still relevance.
uhm Rucky maybe im doing something wrong but the link you provided seems not to work properly.. Could you either fix it or maybe just state the alias/nickname you played with, so i could search for the rep on the site? The search function they have sadly gives no results if i only type in 3c66b8...
thx very much in advance
EDIT: seems my internet connection and/or javascript settings messed it up, cuz now i get linked properly, first it redirected me to http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft only..
Rucky I know this thread is incredibly long, but we already came to the conclusion that the build benefits more from a Mondi-style early +1 carapace instead of +1 missile. Also, as far as I am aware, then 2nd evo is then dedicated to +1 melee.
Later, Misrah noted that perhaps going ling speed before +1 could be better, but that was notmuch discussed. Also not entirely clear is the 2nd gas timing - I think it was suggested to do this as lair pops, but to my limited experience with this build you wont have enough gas for all planned upgrades this way - I came to the conclusion you need to build it as soons as the nat is saturated with drones.
Misrah, perhaps you should add and edited version of the build to the initial post.
Jaedong just used queens for ensnare and parasite, combined with a defiler rush-build and shitraped Fantasy on Sin Chupung Reyong, this is the first loss of the Terrans on that map.
Yea, I told you guys somewhere that queens have a timing window in ZvT.
We saw in the game how ensnare synergizes with lurkling defiler. JD went 3 hatch lurk instead of muta harass and did a pincer ensnare dswarm rape in the valley by his nat.
On December 24 2008 02:08 Wotans_Fire wrote: I can't wait to watch it 21% finished in 4 hours ! I'm quite new to the game, have people tried to use queens in the past?
My zerg history is rusty but I believe Chojja and a few other zergs used it now and then. But JD seems to have figured out an entire BO, timing and everything. Pretty much every zerg player has been theorizing on why, when and how to incorporate queens into ZvT for the past what, 10 years? So THIS is REALLLLLLYYYYY exciting for zerg players everywhere. At least I think it should be. Queen use may revolutionize ZvT the way defilers did. MAYBE.
On December 07 2008 18:39 Crunchums wrote: Aside from hyvaa generally being a subpar player I'm not sure why he chose cross positions on Andromeda of all maps to try it on. Seems like you'd want a less open map so that it's harder for the terran's army to just run away whenever he gets ensnared (as flash frequently did).
it forced flash to go through the middle of the map, which should allow you to surround much easier.
I think that the way hyvaa used ensnare in the middle of Andromeda wasn't very good because of the multiple paths of retreat available.
Ensnare would work a lot better in a place where you know where the terran's army is going to retreat to. Also it would work a lot better if it was performed by a good player like Jaedong against an overrated player like say fantasy
I am trying to find another thread that got flamed because it said something about faking Spire and going straight into Lurk fast Hive or something like that.. if anyone can find it and bump it and paste that video please!
I Know, this thread is damn old. But I just recently discovered the thread and actually read the whole thing. I agree with Misrah in my own diffrent way: I dislike macroing up and dont like my opponent to macro up. Maybe cause I'm old and I grew up with an aggressive Zerg style, maybe cause I don't like Terrans, does't really matter.
Fact is, after reading the thread I dedicated 10 games having one goal. Beeing aggressive and go for eary Hydra/Ling before droning up more. If T bunkers, ok i contain and drone up, if he's too stubborn to place a bunker, I run in and kick him out.
The reason for this smurf acc is only to investigate the ideology behind this thread. So far I jsut upload 2 replays.
The goal is to find my own way of denying opponent's increase in macroing and drone up as situation allows. Will play and improve this idea throughout the whole season now and see where it comes to an end and why. So, if anyone wants to buh me out now, do so. But playing standard and copying other players' builds is boring after 100 games. Hope this thread gets active again, because I really like the different point of view/playstyle of Mishra.
Kind regards and sorry for freshing up old posts. lpr
Well here is hoping that you have some good luck with this build. Personally i still use it if T even thinks about going mech. It handles any type of mech to bio switch very well, and late game hydra ultra is just a game ender. Basically this build puts you in a great position to shit on any cute fantasy,lomo,boxer,oov terran play. I think that it is a definatve 1 base mech, or FE mech counter. You have 4 hatch production and faster upgrades than any other zerg build.
Here is a recent rep vs a B- terran: His icup account can be found here:
i think your gas shortage is a result of the hydra/lurk/scourge build...
maybe try to grab a few extra expansions with the extra minerals but his build really didn't work out well to yours. not sure if getting that early vessel was a good choice because a standard push with later vessel would have much bigger m&m and tank numbers and probably could have defeated your army.
Hardly luck. You did outplay him, but he's definitely not a B- Terran (he downranks foreigners lol). His build was bad, he didn't know what timing windows are, and he preferred to have 0-1 marines 17 minutes in. It's a good replay to look for improvement, but unfortunately not to test viability.
As babyrhino said, you need to actually play to this build's strengths because as I saw you just sat around not maximizing anything. With 4 hatch before gas your goal is clearly an extremely heavy economy. Part of this problem was your really bad saturation (nat over, expo and main under), but also simply production. He was way undersaturated as well and kept suiciding units to you yet you couldn't come near to his production until his main ran dry. That shows that your economic emphasis was either a bad theory or poorly implemented (latter imo).
Basically as soon as you have some kind of map control (obviously different times vs different builds, but this is why it'd be nice to have mutas) you should double expand. Preferably a main/nat so you only have to defend 1 choke. That way you can actually make use of your excess drones and win on the strength of a roaring economy. Though even with that economy you still need to make queens/and or defilers. You were clearly better than this guy so it didn't matter but in general it is a necessity.
Lastly, getting 4 hatches before hydras versus mech openings means you need to make multiple sunkens or die to vultures. Even with his 1 slow vulture he couldve' done so much by slipping around the left side. If he had went 2 fact speed or even 1 fact speed that would've been game over.
EPT
) is playing it safe in your build orders peak (when you have the hydra ling + queen army) and chill as his nat.
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