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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
By request I am going to start a Zerg mechanics thread. I do not claim to be the best, most intelligent. I am making this thread and another (zerg strategy) to share my insight for those who think it valuable and also to spark discussion / questions people can feel free to have with my in regard to these topic areas. Ive been asked to do this for awhile so I finally will do it.
Some mechanics I utilize (in random order)
Hotkeys: My hotkeys are bad and should not be mimicked. They work because I am used to them. This is my first bit of advice. Not everyone should use Savior or July hotkeys thinking that is the success. I use 3-0 as hatcheries with only 1-2 sometimes 3-4 as units. This is bad but it is what I am used to. Do what is comfortable for you. I actually make myself extremely familiar with these keys each game by "apm smashing" or repeatedly cycling through these. It helps make muscle memory each game, warm up fingers etc. I see no harm.
Hatcheries: I have a general rule on hatcheries I advise to those I teach. Typically it should be 2 hatcheries an expansion, IE 1 base and 1 nat = 4 hatches. More is "ok" but not recommended in my opinion. This number can fluctuate according of course, If you are mining at 5 expansions obviously the rate needs to be taken into account. The rule of 2 is generally for the early - mid game where 3 bases are being mined tops.
Use hatcheries wisely. Hide a tech with them if you 3 hatch. Put a hatch at a spot within the main base where an extra scan or a probe may not see it. Put a "hydra den" by your normal hatch and make the spire at the secret hatch. This can win games you might not deserve (IE vs Testie or something) or can give you that edge you need to make it a gg. If the map is typical for 2 gate vs P put the third hatch by your nat and slant it so a spot is created where a sunk can go perfect for zeal defense. To many Z's lose to such simple things as hatchery missplacement or over hatching or vise versa.
Drone Use: ESPECIALLY in zvz to many Z's lose games or at least don't properly defend by being to free with drones. If I can get you to drone drill or chase 1-3 lings with ALL your drones multiple times.. in a tight ZvZ that is a HUGE favor for me. Have the drones go to one patch and attack/stack. Move the targeted drone away and use neighbor drones for free hits if you have less lings. Only use drones in ZvZ if you absolutely must. Vs T using drones is almost always a nono. The one time I can think of this being a huge YES is if a T trys and run up the ramp. Trick the T into an open ramp and than maynard to the home minerals as he runs up, hit em when hes there and have the ambush be complete. Careful for a bat target on the drones though. Another helpful use of drones vs T is when you see a drop and only have 5-6 lings or a few hydra/muta. Use the drones for those extra hits, the expert Z would even use them to target the 1-2 meds so your forces can have an easier time hitting the rines.
Muta Micro/Use: To many of us see July/Midian reps and go, "I want to do that!" Well we cant guys. We can come close though, and if used intelligently this can be almost as good. group mutas with an ovie and collapse them into a small group. Harrass the T not to win the game but rather to allow for another expansion or two and a safer lurk tech with THE RISK OF winning / getting things like sci vessels/tanks alone. Dont be retarded and go mass mutas vs a T unless the game permits this. make 8-10 mutas and use this to hit constructing scv's or perhaps a naked mineral line. Hit rines when you can and always look for a vulnerable tank/sci vessel. The only time I want to see a non korean Z going balls to the wall with muts is if the T is doing a 1 base tank push or its an island map (even then..). One of my favorite things with mutas is it means you have a spire. To many Z's lose games because they open with lurks and never get a spire for sci vessels/storm drops.
iNc Macro Thoughts: Obviously if anyone knows me I tend to be a low macro / micro oriented Z. That being said I know a few things about macro. KNOW YOUR OPPONENT, if you are playing a satanik/Grrrr/Clawson or other old school oriented players chances are you wont want to look to a huge build up and macro oriented game. DO NOT GET CAUGHT WITH PANTS DOWN. Have ovies at key points to allow you to know when they are massing or leaving. If you win a battle it is generally time to macro. This means make more drones and distribute through the economy. This allows for the more effective powering and a faster production rate. One of the best things a player can do is "maynard" workers to new expos. We tend to make drones more noticeably for home bases such as main/nats. To often do we forget to drone up on expos. Thats why it is good to sacrifice the drone count at home so that an expo can have more (you will more likely fill up at home than you would at an expo).
Get Familiar with Hotkeys: I dont know alot actually. I am a huge "mouse" player and use very few hotkeys. That being said, KNOW the defiler hotkeys. KNOW the drone/ling/hydra/muta hotkeys. Cannot stress the defiler enough, vs T these days itis imperitive we as Z users know how to consume "c" and than caste swarm "w" (i tihnk? heh).
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Market Place of Ideas: Share your thoughts. I don't pretend to be done learning. What you guys think? Ask me anything with "iNc:" and I will eventually quote it and answer to the best of my ability. Im in op tl-west alot and if im not afk ask me for some games/advice Im always happy to help the polite/willing. Im g.s)tsavonglah
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: Scourge control, how do you do it? I was watching a July fpvod and he actually hotkeys 6 then 4 then 2 so he can order 1a2a3a with them. However, is that an efficient use of hotkeys in your opinion? or are you better off shift-cloning during send?
if you have mutaling vs terran, mutalisks are sent first, right? same with lurkerling, lurkers sent first then lings so they arrive about the same time. but if you have mutalurkling, what is the best sending order?
Thanks so much for help ^^
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What is a good time to get upgrades? I know a lot of the time it is game dependent, and putting up 2 evo chambers and doing melee/carapace is a fair chunk of gas esp. if you need muta or lurk...
I never really know when to build them, so i usually just do it around the time of my 3rd expo. also, is the muta armor upgrade worth it?
thanks!
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Calgary25977 Posts
Oh man I couldn't disagree more with Defilers vs Protoss 
Everything else was good. I'm suprised you're a mouse player but a 3-0 Hatchery! I would have figured you for a mouse + 1-7 units player by your style.
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United States20661 Posts
The armor upgrade is worth it in ZvZ, but only once you're established and can get away with 1.5 less mutas than the other guy without dying.
as for armor in other mu, it's semi-used in zvt as well, but only if you're going muta heavy. in usual games where you only build 6-12 mutal if any, it's not worth it.
I suppose you should get it if you're going muta heavy vs low damage fast atk unit like corsair, but I question your sanity if you go mass mutal/scourge vs mass sair. It's doable, definitely, but a mess and so easy to screw up.
as for when to get upg, it depends on your game plan. I've seen junwi zvt with no upgs all the way to defilerlurkling, and he only got evo chamber to build spore colonies vs wraiths.
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The people want more details. Why do you 9 pool so often? What happens when you're dual upgrading zvp vs fe and suddently the toss gets a stargate and multiple sairs and may or may not go pure reavers? Do you lay down hydra den cancel melee upgrade and go range? What happens when toss gets a lot of sairs in general? Do you skip early hive and get hydras?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:02 Last Romantic wrote:
iNc: Scourge control, how do you do it? I was watching a July fpvod and he actually hotkeys 6 then 4 then 2 so he can order 1a2a3a with them. However, is that an efficient use of hotkeys in your opinion? or are you better off shift-cloning during send?
if you have mutaling vs terran, mutalisks are sent first, right? same with lurkerling, lurkers sent first then lings so they arrive about the same time. but if you have mutalurkling, what is the best sending order?
Thanks so much for help ^^
1. I group all mine in one group. I move them into the enemy force and hit "A" as they are within the force. This seperates them fine for me. For smaller muta battles I manually tell them to go 1 per muta (like if its 6 muta vs 6 muta and some scourge).
2. Muta/ling I always go muta in first than circle with ling. With Lurk/Ling i always go ling first than lurker after ling circle the T in.For muta/lurker/ling the best is lurk-muta-ling. This gets the spines going faster cause the T will switch from targeting lurkers to auto targeting mutas. This means your surving lurkers smash the T while muta/ling overrun.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:10 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
What is a good time to get upgrades? I know a lot of the time it is game dependent, and putting up 2 evo chambers and doing melee/carapace is a fair chunk of gas esp. if you need muta or lurk...
I never really know when to build them, so i usually just do it around the time of my 3rd expo. also, is the muta armor upgrade worth it?
thanks!
Armor for muta is good in ZvZ or vs T. If its vs P or harrass vs T i recommend attack. Dual evo is the way to go (for me) in ZvP. I lay it down shortyl after starting my second gas at the nat. Vs T it isnt as big of a deal, I like to have one going after the lair or muta tech. Some Z's almost never get the evo going but I dislike that style because 1-1 or even 2-2 rines TEAR z's apart who neglect the evo.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
The people want more details. Why do you 9 pool so often? What happens when you're dual upgrading zvp vs fe and suddently the toss gets a stargate and multiple sairs and may or may not go pure reavers? Do you lay down hydra den cancel melee upgrade and go range? What happens when toss gets a lot of sairs in general? Do you skip early hive and get hydras?
I 9pool so often because of the huge trend to FE in such a cocky manner. I can win an easy game this way or not be behind at all. It is also a check against cheese, lots of P's / T's feel they can only win with cheese so this is a great check vs that. If they proxy or all-in I have my own little response.
If P switches I go hydra/scourge + mass expo yes. If P goes mass sairs I go hydra yes. If this happens late I generally keep my melee/ultra ups and just haev the Hydras as a check vs Sairs.
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inc: What is your favorite type of 9 pool play vs toss. Do you generally pool gas, or pool expo off of 9. Also what point do you expo with 9 pool generally?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 01:31 BalloonFight wrote:
inc: What is your favorite type of 9 pool play vs toss. Do you generally pool gas, or pool expo off of 9. Also what point do you expo with 9 pool generally?
1. I normal 9 vs toss since it is only to make them cannon than nexus. I also do this to counter proxy. But I dont even make lings after first 6 unless they are 2 gating or something
2. Situational. I gas if they are far behind and a 1 hatch muta strat could win it. I 99% of the time exp since that is what i 9 for basically.
3. I expo when I have 300 minerals or they are not making a 2 gate force or something. Situational really. Expo if they arent looking to counter.
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"PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here."
Well. Disagreed. Defilers are crucial in killing mass-cannoned expos and in bridge/narrow passage fights against zealot/arch with dragoons behind. Plagued zealots are just as vulnerable as lings, so... You just need a lot of apm to perform this all.
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On January 29 2007 03:26 turretlame wrote:Well. Disagreed. Defilers are crucial in killing mass-cannoned expos and in bridge/narrow passage fights against zealot/arch with dragoons behind. Plagued zealots are just as vulnerable as lings, so... You just need a lot of apm to perform this all.
Also swarm makes Archons less effective because they only do splash damage under it.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On January 29 2007 03:26 turretlame wrote:
"PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here."
Well. Disagreed. Defilers are crucial in killing mass-cannoned expos and in bridge/narrow passage fights against zealot/arch with dragoons behind. Plagued zealots are just as vulnerable as lings, so... You just need a lot of apm to perform this all.
... you seem to be in accord with iNc as far as I can tell. If their army is zeal arch temp, then swarm will reduce archon dmg, but nothing else. The gas for defiler is probably going to be better spent getting extra ultras.
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I'd prefer to have 2 defilers over an extra ultralisk to reduce the damage that archons can do to my mass lings, which are what are doing damage for me, not the ultras.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
My advice was also more geared towards the fact that MOST z's (non korean) could use the attacking unit and not the (for most cases)useless spell caster. Such things tend to slow us down and make us ineffective. I feel a lot of Z's missuse the defiler in ZvP and in doing so not only waste resources but they also waste precious multitasking time.
Hullah your post agreed with mine only you said it in a lot more words <3
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Do you really think so? Since Protoss lacks something like Irradiate, as long as you don't get your defiler stormed you shouldn't need very many of them - maybe 2, which can really make archons completely useless, and is extremely helpful against all the Nal_rA wannabes that make 12938901283 cannons at each expo.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:28 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 00:10 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
What is a good time to get upgrades? I know a lot of the time it is game dependent, and putting up 2 evo chambers and doing melee/carapace is a fair chunk of gas esp. if you need muta or lurk...
I never really know when to build them, so i usually just do it around the time of my 3rd expo. also, is the muta armor upgrade worth it?
thanks! Armor for muta is good in ZvZ or vs T. If its vs P or harrass vs T i recommend attack. Dual evo is the way to go (for me) in ZvP. I lay it down shortyl after starting my second gas at the nat. Vs T it isnt as big of a deal, I like to have one going after the lair or muta tech. Some Z's almost never get the evo going but I dislike that style because 1-1 or even 2-2 rines TEAR z's apart who neglect the evo.
+1 attack mutas do much better against unupgraded mnm, so that's usually the driving consideration for me.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 08:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Do you really think so? Since Protoss lacks something like Irradiate, as long as you don't get your defiler stormed you shouldn't need very many of them - maybe 2, which can really make archons completely useless, and is extremely helpful against all the Nal_rA wannabes that make 12938901283 cannons at each expo.
Read the rest of the very comment you quoted 
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EPT
