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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
By request I am going to start a Zerg mechanics thread. I do not claim to be the best, most intelligent. I am making this thread and another (zerg strategy) to share my insight for those who think it valuable and also to spark discussion / questions people can feel free to have with my in regard to these topic areas. Ive been asked to do this for awhile so I finally will do it.
Some mechanics I utilize (in random order)
Hotkeys: My hotkeys are bad and should not be mimicked. They work because I am used to them. This is my first bit of advice. Not everyone should use Savior or July hotkeys thinking that is the success. I use 3-0 as hatcheries with only 1-2 sometimes 3-4 as units. This is bad but it is what I am used to. Do what is comfortable for you. I actually make myself extremely familiar with these keys each game by "apm smashing" or repeatedly cycling through these. It helps make muscle memory each game, warm up fingers etc. I see no harm.
Hatcheries: I have a general rule on hatcheries I advise to those I teach. Typically it should be 2 hatcheries an expansion, IE 1 base and 1 nat = 4 hatches. More is "ok" but not recommended in my opinion. This number can fluctuate according of course, If you are mining at 5 expansions obviously the rate needs to be taken into account. The rule of 2 is generally for the early - mid game where 3 bases are being mined tops.
Use hatcheries wisely. Hide a tech with them if you 3 hatch. Put a hatch at a spot within the main base where an extra scan or a probe may not see it. Put a "hydra den" by your normal hatch and make the spire at the secret hatch. This can win games you might not deserve (IE vs Testie or something) or can give you that edge you need to make it a gg. If the map is typical for 2 gate vs P put the third hatch by your nat and slant it so a spot is created where a sunk can go perfect for zeal defense. To many Z's lose to such simple things as hatchery missplacement or over hatching or vise versa.
Drone Use: ESPECIALLY in zvz to many Z's lose games or at least don't properly defend by being to free with drones. If I can get you to drone drill or chase 1-3 lings with ALL your drones multiple times.. in a tight ZvZ that is a HUGE favor for me. Have the drones go to one patch and attack/stack. Move the targeted drone away and use neighbor drones for free hits if you have less lings. Only use drones in ZvZ if you absolutely must. Vs T using drones is almost always a nono. The one time I can think of this being a huge YES is if a T trys and run up the ramp. Trick the T into an open ramp and than maynard to the home minerals as he runs up, hit em when hes there and have the ambush be complete. Careful for a bat target on the drones though. Another helpful use of drones vs T is when you see a drop and only have 5-6 lings or a few hydra/muta. Use the drones for those extra hits, the expert Z would even use them to target the 1-2 meds so your forces can have an easier time hitting the rines.
Muta Micro/Use: To many of us see July/Midian reps and go, "I want to do that!" Well we cant guys. We can come close though, and if used intelligently this can be almost as good. group mutas with an ovie and collapse them into a small group. Harrass the T not to win the game but rather to allow for another expansion or two and a safer lurk tech with THE RISK OF winning / getting things like sci vessels/tanks alone. Dont be retarded and go mass mutas vs a T unless the game permits this. make 8-10 mutas and use this to hit constructing scv's or perhaps a naked mineral line. Hit rines when you can and always look for a vulnerable tank/sci vessel. The only time I want to see a non korean Z going balls to the wall with muts is if the T is doing a 1 base tank push or its an island map (even then..). One of my favorite things with mutas is it means you have a spire. To many Z's lose games because they open with lurks and never get a spire for sci vessels/storm drops.
iNc Macro Thoughts: Obviously if anyone knows me I tend to be a low macro / micro oriented Z. That being said I know a few things about macro. KNOW YOUR OPPONENT, if you are playing a satanik/Grrrr/Clawson or other old school oriented players chances are you wont want to look to a huge build up and macro oriented game. DO NOT GET CAUGHT WITH PANTS DOWN. Have ovies at key points to allow you to know when they are massing or leaving. If you win a battle it is generally time to macro. This means make more drones and distribute through the economy. This allows for the more effective powering and a faster production rate. One of the best things a player can do is "maynard" workers to new expos. We tend to make drones more noticeably for home bases such as main/nats. To often do we forget to drone up on expos. Thats why it is good to sacrifice the drone count at home so that an expo can have more (you will more likely fill up at home than you would at an expo).
Get Familiar with Hotkeys: I dont know alot actually. I am a huge "mouse" player and use very few hotkeys. That being said, KNOW the defiler hotkeys. KNOW the drone/ling/hydra/muta hotkeys. Cannot stress the defiler enough, vs T these days itis imperitive we as Z users know how to consume "c" and than caste swarm "w" (i tihnk? heh).
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Market Place of Ideas: Share your thoughts. I don't pretend to be done learning. What you guys think? Ask me anything with "iNc:" and I will eventually quote it and answer to the best of my ability. Im in op tl-west alot and if im not afk ask me for some games/advice Im always happy to help the polite/willing. Im g.s)tsavonglah
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: Scourge control, how do you do it? I was watching a July fpvod and he actually hotkeys 6 then 4 then 2 so he can order 1a2a3a with them. However, is that an efficient use of hotkeys in your opinion? or are you better off shift-cloning during send?
if you have mutaling vs terran, mutalisks are sent first, right? same with lurkerling, lurkers sent first then lings so they arrive about the same time. but if you have mutalurkling, what is the best sending order?
Thanks so much for help ^^
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What is a good time to get upgrades? I know a lot of the time it is game dependent, and putting up 2 evo chambers and doing melee/carapace is a fair chunk of gas esp. if you need muta or lurk...
I never really know when to build them, so i usually just do it around the time of my 3rd expo. also, is the muta armor upgrade worth it?
thanks!
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Calgary25980 Posts
Oh man I couldn't disagree more with Defilers vs Protoss 
Everything else was good. I'm suprised you're a mouse player but a 3-0 Hatchery! I would have figured you for a mouse + 1-7 units player by your style.
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United States20661 Posts
The armor upgrade is worth it in ZvZ, but only once you're established and can get away with 1.5 less mutas than the other guy without dying.
as for armor in other mu, it's semi-used in zvt as well, but only if you're going muta heavy. in usual games where you only build 6-12 mutal if any, it's not worth it.
I suppose you should get it if you're going muta heavy vs low damage fast atk unit like corsair, but I question your sanity if you go mass mutal/scourge vs mass sair. It's doable, definitely, but a mess and so easy to screw up.
as for when to get upg, it depends on your game plan. I've seen junwi zvt with no upgs all the way to defilerlurkling, and he only got evo chamber to build spore colonies vs wraiths.
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The people want more details. Why do you 9 pool so often? What happens when you're dual upgrading zvp vs fe and suddently the toss gets a stargate and multiple sairs and may or may not go pure reavers? Do you lay down hydra den cancel melee upgrade and go range? What happens when toss gets a lot of sairs in general? Do you skip early hive and get hydras?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:02 Last Romantic wrote:
iNc: Scourge control, how do you do it? I was watching a July fpvod and he actually hotkeys 6 then 4 then 2 so he can order 1a2a3a with them. However, is that an efficient use of hotkeys in your opinion? or are you better off shift-cloning during send?
if you have mutaling vs terran, mutalisks are sent first, right? same with lurkerling, lurkers sent first then lings so they arrive about the same time. but if you have mutalurkling, what is the best sending order?
Thanks so much for help ^^
1. I group all mine in one group. I move them into the enemy force and hit "A" as they are within the force. This seperates them fine for me. For smaller muta battles I manually tell them to go 1 per muta (like if its 6 muta vs 6 muta and some scourge).
2. Muta/ling I always go muta in first than circle with ling. With Lurk/Ling i always go ling first than lurker after ling circle the T in.For muta/lurker/ling the best is lurk-muta-ling. This gets the spines going faster cause the T will switch from targeting lurkers to auto targeting mutas. This means your surving lurkers smash the T while muta/ling overrun.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:10 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
What is a good time to get upgrades? I know a lot of the time it is game dependent, and putting up 2 evo chambers and doing melee/carapace is a fair chunk of gas esp. if you need muta or lurk...
I never really know when to build them, so i usually just do it around the time of my 3rd expo. also, is the muta armor upgrade worth it?
thanks!
Armor for muta is good in ZvZ or vs T. If its vs P or harrass vs T i recommend attack. Dual evo is the way to go (for me) in ZvP. I lay it down shortyl after starting my second gas at the nat. Vs T it isnt as big of a deal, I like to have one going after the lair or muta tech. Some Z's almost never get the evo going but I dislike that style because 1-1 or even 2-2 rines TEAR z's apart who neglect the evo.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
The people want more details. Why do you 9 pool so often? What happens when you're dual upgrading zvp vs fe and suddently the toss gets a stargate and multiple sairs and may or may not go pure reavers? Do you lay down hydra den cancel melee upgrade and go range? What happens when toss gets a lot of sairs in general? Do you skip early hive and get hydras?
I 9pool so often because of the huge trend to FE in such a cocky manner. I can win an easy game this way or not be behind at all. It is also a check against cheese, lots of P's / T's feel they can only win with cheese so this is a great check vs that. If they proxy or all-in I have my own little response.
If P switches I go hydra/scourge + mass expo yes. If P goes mass sairs I go hydra yes. If this happens late I generally keep my melee/ultra ups and just haev the Hydras as a check vs Sairs.
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inc: What is your favorite type of 9 pool play vs toss. Do you generally pool gas, or pool expo off of 9. Also what point do you expo with 9 pool generally?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 01:31 BalloonFight wrote:
inc: What is your favorite type of 9 pool play vs toss. Do you generally pool gas, or pool expo off of 9. Also what point do you expo with 9 pool generally?
1. I normal 9 vs toss since it is only to make them cannon than nexus. I also do this to counter proxy. But I dont even make lings after first 6 unless they are 2 gating or something
2. Situational. I gas if they are far behind and a 1 hatch muta strat could win it. I 99% of the time exp since that is what i 9 for basically.
3. I expo when I have 300 minerals or they are not making a 2 gate force or something. Situational really. Expo if they arent looking to counter.
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"PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here."
Well. Disagreed. Defilers are crucial in killing mass-cannoned expos and in bridge/narrow passage fights against zealot/arch with dragoons behind. Plagued zealots are just as vulnerable as lings, so... You just need a lot of apm to perform this all.
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On January 29 2007 03:26 turretlame wrote:Well. Disagreed. Defilers are crucial in killing mass-cannoned expos and in bridge/narrow passage fights against zealot/arch with dragoons behind. Plagued zealots are just as vulnerable as lings, so... You just need a lot of apm to perform this all.
Also swarm makes Archons less effective because they only do splash damage under it.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On January 29 2007 03:26 turretlame wrote:
"PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here."
Well. Disagreed. Defilers are crucial in killing mass-cannoned expos and in bridge/narrow passage fights against zealot/arch with dragoons behind. Plagued zealots are just as vulnerable as lings, so... You just need a lot of apm to perform this all.
... you seem to be in accord with iNc as far as I can tell. If their army is zeal arch temp, then swarm will reduce archon dmg, but nothing else. The gas for defiler is probably going to be better spent getting extra ultras.
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I'd prefer to have 2 defilers over an extra ultralisk to reduce the damage that archons can do to my mass lings, which are what are doing damage for me, not the ultras.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
My advice was also more geared towards the fact that MOST z's (non korean) could use the attacking unit and not the (for most cases)useless spell caster. Such things tend to slow us down and make us ineffective. I feel a lot of Z's missuse the defiler in ZvP and in doing so not only waste resources but they also waste precious multitasking time.
Hullah your post agreed with mine only you said it in a lot more words <3
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Do you really think so? Since Protoss lacks something like Irradiate, as long as you don't get your defiler stormed you shouldn't need very many of them - maybe 2, which can really make archons completely useless, and is extremely helpful against all the Nal_rA wannabes that make 12938901283 cannons at each expo.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:28 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 00:10 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
What is a good time to get upgrades? I know a lot of the time it is game dependent, and putting up 2 evo chambers and doing melee/carapace is a fair chunk of gas esp. if you need muta or lurk...
I never really know when to build them, so i usually just do it around the time of my 3rd expo. also, is the muta armor upgrade worth it?
thanks! Armor for muta is good in ZvZ or vs T. If its vs P or harrass vs T i recommend attack. Dual evo is the way to go (for me) in ZvP. I lay it down shortyl after starting my second gas at the nat. Vs T it isnt as big of a deal, I like to have one going after the lair or muta tech. Some Z's almost never get the evo going but I dislike that style because 1-1 or even 2-2 rines TEAR z's apart who neglect the evo.
+1 attack mutas do much better against unupgraded mnm, so that's usually the driving consideration for me.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 08:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Do you really think so? Since Protoss lacks something like Irradiate, as long as you don't get your defiler stormed you shouldn't need very many of them - maybe 2, which can really make archons completely useless, and is extremely helpful against all the Nal_rA wannabes that make 12938901283 cannons at each expo.
Read the rest of the very comment you quoted 
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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
defilers make a huge difference vs archons, and are obviously awesome for raping cannons. sometimes it might be more useful to make a few extra units (defilers are not THAT expensive anyway and you don't need many of them). but c'mon you don't really get many units for the same price as 2 defilers or so. the defilers allow you to actually attack whereas without them you're just gonna be sitting aorund. watch my old pgtour replay vs say[join], i uploaded in replay section ages ago! without defiler i couldn't possibly win that game. many games you can win without defilers, but there are also a fair amount of games where you can't win without them. rarely if ever will making defilers cost you the game.
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Wow dude thanks a bunch
Do you think you could upload some replays where you 9 pool?
i really like 9 pooling but always fail to build right after the first 6 lings - i think its because i get greedy and mass ling for the win, i dunno
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(fuck i copied my post and then copied something else over it -_-)
two comments/questions
i think your view on defs is a little inaccurate. i understand your 2nd post, about how you dont want less skilled zergs to think they are pros with it. maybe you should elaborate on when to use them? obviously you dont want to speed to them asap like zvt, but theres a million uses for them. they force the toss into zeal/ht/chon (if they werent there already), chon sucks under it, you can toss in lurks and they now kick ass. and, no one mentioned, if youre behind (or a sunk/spore/lurk whore) you can swarm all over you defense and absolutely fend off a huge attack.
the other thing is your view on 9pool vs fe. someone posted here recently to do this and got shredded to bits by posters. i understand how you can get a quick win if they nexus first, but if they cannon and hold you off, arent you at a serious economic disadvantage? youre basically playing catch up. i understand its good for proxy too, but so is 12 pool. my question is, in each of these situations, wouldnt 12pool be a better route to take? why do you see 9pool > 12?
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On January 29 2007 09:45 j0ehoe wrote:
(fuck i copied my post and then copied something else over it -_-)
two comments/questions
i think your view on defs is a little inaccurate. i understand your 2nd post, about how you dont want less skilled zergs to think they are pros with it. maybe you should elaborate on when to use them? obviously you dont want to speed to them asap like zvt, but theres a million uses for them. they force the toss into zeal/ht/chon (if they werent there already), chon sucks under it, you can toss in lurks and they now kick ass. and, no one mentioned, if youre behind (or a sunk/spore/lurk whore) you can swarm all over you defense and absolutely fend off a huge attack.
Well u can swarm your defense but swarm doesnt protect buildings from range attacks but maybe makes your sunkens usless vs lots and u should not need to strengthen sunk/spore/lurker anyways because every toss whos dumb enough to run onto it should loose anyways
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TL strategy forum:
P Thread = ends up in a discussion about balance
T Thread = ends up in a discussion about APM
Z Thread = great constructive threads with good players giving advice.
^^
Nice thread iNc. Although I disagree about the defiler bit, you don't have to bring them with every army if you want mobility, but they help a bunch vs any worthwhile P army.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 29 2007 08:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 08:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
Do you really think so? Since Protoss lacks something like Irradiate, as long as you don't get your defiler stormed you shouldn't need very many of them - maybe 2, which can really make archons completely useless, and is extremely helpful against all the Nal_rA wannabes that make 12938901283 cannons at each expo. Read the rest of the very comment you quoted
Yeah, it's helpful against archon-heavy as well as goon/cannon-heavy (which everyone is), so it's kind of weird to say "stop makign them" when you should be making them whenever Protoss goes many cannon/archon
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this is how the strat section should be: all z threads <3
these are very nice guides, hope they are put in the recoomended thread.
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I do not really understand these "general strategy guides"
i dont mean to sound rude, but do we really want to turn people into mindless zombies?
I personally feel it is these kinds of things that encourage people to play on the same maps because they can stick to there safe guidelines and stay away that maps that require thought.
just a thought.
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On January 29 2007 08:41 ToT)MidiaN( wrote:
rarely if ever will making defilers cost you the game.
I like defilers but I just want to point out that if you arent really used to getting them and researching their spells it will take you a while before you can use them effectively and macro. So not really a tip for the progamerzz but just that getting defilers for some dudes who will quickly accumulate like 2k+ actually can lose them games. : [
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"TL strategy forum:
P Thread = ends up in a discussion about balance
T Thread = ends up in a discussion about APM
Z Thread = great constructive threads with good players giving advice."
Because for most of poor protoss players it is much easier to say 'imba!' than to use brain from time to time and get to the conclusion that e.g. they can do sth more than only mass zealots again ultras (yes! reavers!!!)
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yea because it takes a lot of brainpower to run ultra/ling around
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On January 29 2007 07:40 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
My advice was also more geared towards the fact that MOST z's (non korean) could use the attacking unit and not the (for most cases)useless spell caster. Such things tend to slow us down and make us ineffective. I feel a lot of Z's missuse the defiler in ZvP and in doing so not only waste resources but they also waste precious multitasking time.
Hullah your post agreed with mine only you said it in a lot more words <3
its much better to learn how to use them instead of just abandoning them, it may slow you down while you're getting used to it but once you are defilers are so strong it is well worth it. (not you as in you, you as in z's in general)
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On January 29 2007 09:45 j0ehoe wrote:
(fuck i copied my post and then copied something else over it -_-)
two comments/questions
i think your view on defs is a little inaccurate. i understand your 2nd post, about how you dont want less skilled zergs to think they are pros with it. maybe you should elaborate on when to use them? obviously you dont want to speed to them asap like zvt, but theres a million uses for them. they force the toss into zeal/ht/chon (if they werent there already), chon sucks under it, you can toss in lurks and they now kick ass. and, no one mentioned, if youre behind (or a sunk/spore/lurk whore) you can swarm all over you defense and absolutely fend off a huge attack.
the other thing is your view on 9pool vs fe. someone posted here recently to do this and got shredded to bits by posters. i understand how you can get a quick win if they nexus first, but if they cannon and hold you off, arent you at a serious economic disadvantage? youre basically playing catch up. i understand its good for proxy too, but so is 12 pool. my question is, in each of these situations, wouldnt 12pool be a better route to take? why do you see 9pool > 12?
On January 29 2007 14:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 07:40 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
My advice was also more geared towards the fact that MOST z's (non korean) could use the attacking unit and not the (for most cases)useless spell caster. Such things tend to slow us down and make us ineffective. I feel a lot of Z's missuse the defiler in ZvP and in doing so not only waste resources but they also waste precious multitasking time.
Hullah your post agreed with mine only you said it in a lot more words <3 its much better to learn how to use them instead of just abandoning them, it may slow you down while you're getting used to it but once you are defilers are so strong it is well worth it. (not you as in you, you as in z's in general)
Well... Ultras are quite strong as well, and much easier to use. It usually doesn't make too much of a difference unless, like iNc said, they have mass goon, which ultras aren't quite as strong against, or if you have a very low econ and need to be extremely cost efficient, in which case, strong defiler use is cheaper than strong ultra use, especially because strong ultra use usually involves a lot more gas than strong defiler use.
But that comment on swarming your buildings doesn't seem to work - swarm doesn't affect buildings; but plague can fend off a huge attack in much the same fashion .
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 29 2007 14:47 5HITCOMBO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 09:45 j0ehoe wrote:
(fuck i copied my post and then copied something else over it -_-)
two comments/questions
i think your view on defs is a little inaccurate. i understand your 2nd post, about how you dont want less skilled zergs to think they are pros with it. maybe you should elaborate on when to use them? obviously you dont want to speed to them asap like zvt, but theres a million uses for them. they force the toss into zeal/ht/chon (if they werent there already), chon sucks under it, you can toss in lurks and they now kick ass. and, no one mentioned, if youre behind (or a sunk/spore/lurk whore) you can swarm all over you defense and absolutely fend off a huge attack.
the other thing is your view on 9pool vs fe. someone posted here recently to do this and got shredded to bits by posters. i understand how you can get a quick win if they nexus first, but if they cannon and hold you off, arent you at a serious economic disadvantage? youre basically playing catch up. i understand its good for proxy too, but so is 12 pool. my question is, in each of these situations, wouldnt 12pool be a better route to take? why do you see 9pool > 12? Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 14:31 IdrA wrote:On January 29 2007 07:40 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
My advice was also more geared towards the fact that MOST z's (non korean) could use the attacking unit and not the (for most cases)useless spell caster. Such things tend to slow us down and make us ineffective. I feel a lot of Z's missuse the defiler in ZvP and in doing so not only waste resources but they also waste precious multitasking time.
Hullah your post agreed with mine only you said it in a lot more words <3 its much better to learn how to use them instead of just abandoning them, it may slow you down while you're getting used to it but once you are defilers are so strong it is well worth it. (not you as in you, you as in z's in general) Well... Ultras are quite strong as well, and much easier to use. It usually doesn't make too much of a difference unless, like iNc said, they have mass goon, which ultras aren't quite as strong against, or if you have a very low econ and need to be extremely cost efficient, in which case, strong defiler use is cheaper than strong ultra use, especially because strong ultra use usually involves a lot more gas than strong defiler use. But that comment on swarming your buildings doesn't seem to work - swarm doesn't affect buildings; but plague can fend off a huge attack in much the same fashion .
You swarm the Lurkers -_-
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in zvp swarm is a lot more useful on maps where there are less open spaces for battles such as rush hour, example: mondragon vs siz)o.ov from sandlot. On luna it is really hard to use, example midian vs dream.t)yubi, I think midian would've won no matter what even without defilers, but the swarms certainly made him look prettier.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 12:49 Detonate wrote:
I do not really understand these "general strategy guides"
i dont mean to sound rude, but do we really want to turn people into mindless zombies?
I personally feel it is these kinds of things that encourage people to play on the same maps because they can stick to there safe guidelines and stay away that maps that require thought.
just a thought.
Yes. People should never give advice or share experience. It completely diludes the experience.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Lets not make this thread a gigantic chorus of agreement that defilers are "good" and such. We have established that ok? You are all essentially agreeing with me anyways and I would never propose to NOT use defilers im just tired of seeing average non korean trash trying to do what savior does and not embracing the basics FIRST.
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On January 29 2007 14:19 Detonate wrote:
yea because it takes a lot of brainpower to run ultra/ling around
But if it wins everytime you don't need brainpower, do you? Its harder to win when tosses know what they are doing 
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Nice threads, good effort 
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good thing you took my post in the least intelligent way
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On January 29 2007 16:29 Detonate wrote:
good thing you took my post in the least intelligent way
Stop trying to turn this thread into a flamewar.
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On January 29 2007 16:38 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 16:29 Detonate wrote:
good thing you took my post in the least intelligent way Stop trying to turn this thread into a flamewar.
100% agreed
the man takes time out to make a thread, share his ideas and answer questions
don't be a dick
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I don't want to hijack or sidetrack this post, but lately I've been putting a lot of thought into progaming (or high end korean gaming) vs "Foreign" gaming, and I'm actually starting to think that mutas in zvt is a lot more useful in lan/hamachi games, because they are simply that much easier AND better to micro (maybe I just suck on bnet, but my micro on hamachi is really really good compared to bnet), so I've noticed a lot of top foreign z's simply chose not to rely heavily on mutalisks (especially sen from the 15'ish zvt reps I have of him, he almost always opens 3 hatch ling/lurk with +1 carapace, and makes spire later on just for scourges).
Basically I'd really like you people's thought on this - is it "better" to rely on lurk/ling on bnet, and mutas when playing zero-latency? I've been trying lately and with great results personally
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United States20661 Posts
On January 29 2007 20:31 Shiva_Chandra wrote:
I don't want to hijack or sidetrack this post, but lately I've been putting a lot of thought into progaming (or high end korean gaming) vs "Foreign" gaming, and I'm actually starting to think that mutas in zvt is a lot more useful in lan/hamachi games, because they are simply that much easier AND better to micro (maybe I just suck on bnet, but my micro on hamachi is really really good compared to bnet), so I've noticed a lot of top foreign z's simply chose not to rely heavily on mutalisks (especially sen from the 15'ish zvt reps I have of him, he almost always opens 3 hatch ling/lurk with +1 carapace, and makes spire later on just for scourges).
Basically I'd really like you people's thought on this - is it "better" to rely on lurk/ling on bnet, and mutas when playing zero-latency? I've been trying lately and with great results personally
I think so yes. There's the fact that mutas are harder to micro in bnet [though still possible, your best bnet micro will not be as good as your best LAN micro for most gamers] as well as the fact that marine vs lurker is ALSO harder to micro on bnet [thus, you can abuse things a bit]
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Good muta micro on bnet is not hard once you get used to the latency.
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Control please edit your defiler comment. That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
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Inc:
What is your opinion on Muta/Ling/Lurk? Say you have some left over mutalisks is it a good idea to attack with muta/ling/lurk sometimes? I find it extremely effective because most time with Lurk/Ling terran can just pull back units and since Lurker needs burrow and Ling is melee, you ended up with no damage done.
However with mutalisks range, you can rape heckalot of MnM because while they retreat mutalisks fucks them up pretty well.
ANy thoughts? ~_~
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United States20661 Posts
On January 29 2007 21:20 houseurmusic wrote:
Control please edit your defiler comment. That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
who ARE you anyways? -_-;;
inc: what are your opinions on two hand macro a la YellOw? or do you do it with just left hand, right hand stay on mouse?
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On January 30 2007 00:05 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 21:20 houseurmusic wrote:
Control please edit your defiler comment. That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard. who ARE you anyways? -_-;;
Usually dont post just read, but I had to make a comment on that.
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On January 30 2007 00:05 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 21:20 houseurmusic wrote:
Control please edit your defiler comment. That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard. who ARE you anyways? -_-;; inc: what are your opinions on two hand macro a la YellOw? or do you do it with just left hand, right hand stay on mouse?
ok im nto the only freak who 2hands sometimes ;x
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ok I apologize, just wasnt the insightful answer i was looking for.
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On January 28 2007 23:54 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
I think I got what he ment by it - imo it means first learn to play without them, then add them to your potential(same as I would recommend for PvT and carriers).
It's just I was always defiler = archons less effective goons no damage, I must go for this unit.
So I learnt to go every time defilers, and rely on them.
But what it costed I didn't flank, and didn't focus to control my army properly or macro because I was way obsesed by them(ling+defiler drops to kill nexus for example).
My question :
vs a FE toss, compare 3 base vs 2 base zerg.
I mean if zerg goes 2 base, is it viable? Isn't he in economical disadvantage vs toss in long run if he doesn't do some muta damage or sth?
What are the possible ways to go early vs ground(zeal +1) FE with 3 base - are mutas viable, hydras or only lurks or +1 carapace?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 21:47 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Inc:
What is your opinion on Muta/Ling/Lurk? Say you have some left over mutalisks is it a good idea to attack with muta/ling/lurk sometimes? I find it extremely effective because most time with Lurk/Ling terran can just pull back units and since Lurker needs burrow and Ling is melee, you ended up with no damage done.
However with mutalisks range, you can rape heckalot of MnM because while they retreat mutalisks fucks them up pretty well.
ANy thoughts? ~_~
Muta ling lurk is a fucking nice way to evolve after going mutas. The natural tech is a muta opening with a lurker switch. The remaining muts should be used here. Marines naturally target mutas first which is great because the real damage is going to come from the lurkers but also the mutas allow the lings to circle around and freeze the juicy marine force. Mutas also offer great flexibility post muta opening with defending rine drops or scraggling tanks/sci. If I had the micro and the macro for it I think I would open up every ZvT with some sort of muta build as it is just so powerful and if done right demands so much from the T to counter. But as I am only around 200 apm and my macro isn't the proud point of my game I tend to go lurker openings and gain advantages there.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 00:05 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 21:20 houseurmusic wrote:
Control please edit your defiler comment. That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard. who ARE you anyways? -_-;; inc: what are your opinions on two hand macro a la YellOw? or do you do it with just left hand, right hand stay on mouse?
When I went to WCG Seattle a few years back I was blown away by how much you can do with the keyboard in terms of macro. I think if you can do it it is fine, as finding the mouse with your hand is alot easier than finding keyboard placement so I see no give away with that. That being said, I think you can macro just fine with 1 hand and should probably work on maximizing the speed with that as you can simply multi task alot more / better if you are moving around with your mouse AND macroing with your hand as oppose to just macroing with your hands.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 09:50 LastWish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2007 23:54 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here.
I think I got what he ment by it - imo it means first learn to play without them, then add them to your potential(same as I would recommend for PvT and carriers). It's just I was always defiler = archons less effective goons no damage, I must go for this unit. So I learnt to go every time defilers, and rely on them. But what it costed I didn't flank, and didn't focus to control my army properly or macro because I was way obsesed by them(ling+defiler drops to kill nexus for example). My question : vs a FE toss, compare 3 base vs 2 base zerg. I mean if zerg goes 2 base, is it viable? Isn't he in economical disadvantage vs toss in long run if he doesn't do some muta damage or sth? What are the possible ways to go early vs ground(zeal +1) FE with 3 base - are mutas viable, hydras or only lurks or +1 carapace?
Matching a P in FE games with same number of expos is a reaction not a mid-late game strategy. What Mondragon and other good Z's do is not panic and essentially take that time to strengthen their initial economy and gain a strong tech. From there they get to dictate the game. Lurkers force the P to get obs AND defend all angles of the expo nat from lurker range = slow P which than allows the Z to grab 1-2 expoes and be ahead again. Or muta at this point looks to do the same thing essentially only with an added risk of countering inside the P main forcing them to cannon that as well. The misnomer alot of Z's have is that they always have to be ahead in expo count with P's in order to survive. This actually works to their favor (P's). If you over extend and get 1-2 expos in addition to your nat prematurely you can get ran over by the ever-so-predictable +1 speed zeals. Similarly, if you grab only 1 more expo giving you 2 total but arent mining sufficiently you now have to defend 2 fronts which exposes you entirely. Watch mondragon reps and notice the time of which he grabs other expoes. dont copy it per se, but notice the mentality behind it.
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Ya defiliers are useless vs P because making archons do 1/3 dmg is useless /sarcasm -.- InC you're a good player but I don't know what the fuck you were smoking here
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On January 30 2007 16:21 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Ya defiliers are useless vs P because making archons do 1/3 dmg is useless /sarcasm -.- InC you're a good player but I don't know what the fuck you were smoking here
He was smoking Ultras run Archons the fuck over.
If you learn how to play ZvP well, your late game transition means enough gas to pump ultra/ling and not have to worry about defilers. He's not saying they're not great units, but most people won't be able to hit the toss with a good swarm that they won't retreat out of or use storm on (oh shit, storm DOES work under swarm!?!?!), and plague isn't as useful as 12 ultras.
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just please dont get defilers or queens, and everything will be fine k thx
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share your knowledge/expirience is way to make this game balanced =)
nice thread inc
i have two things to ask;
a)what is your muta hotkey or maybe midian's?,i mean when u doing muta micro
u go "1a then click move with mouse or your go like 0p "p for patrol"
i am keycraft user so i use "e" for patrol,easier to micro/macro... 1a/1e,2a/2e,3sd4sd etc
b)when u flank with like 3or more groups do u use only 1a2a3a4a etc
or u use patrol also
i find patrol useful when flanking or attacking base with miners/static defense
cuz units with "patrol" dont stuck like when u click "attack"
they instantly attack nearest units what attacking them
sorry for my english T_T
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On January 29 2007 21:10 Cloud wrote:
Good muta micro on bnet is not hard once you get used to the latency.
Sorry man. Totally disagree with you here. You can sorta practice to get around the terrible latency, but even if you manage to micro extremely well it simply takes more time and intense management because of the lack of immediacy in the motions of your units. On Hamachi its pretty easy to do 2 clicks timed to go attack and run back or vice versa. On bnet the only way you can really micro mutas to a fast degree is to basically be constantly right clicking and it reduces the usefulness of a+move thusly and I think it makes it sort of a spam fest where the actual accuracy is quite reduced.
I also agree with the dude who said lurkers are easier to use on non-bnet. Totally true, instant burrow is really useful and makes the unit a lot better without at least a half second delay. You could say this applies to everything(Like stimming marines or storm) but I really dont think its quite the same case, because a half second delay in stim will never outright kill marines or usually a temp.
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On January 29 2007 10:07 Slayer91 wrote:
TL strategy forum:
P Thread = ends up in a discussion about balance
T Thread = ends up in a discussion about APM
Z Thread = great constructive threads with good players giving advice.
^^
Nice thread iNc. Although I disagree about the defiler bit, you don't have to bring them with every army if you want mobility, but they help a bunch vs any worthwhile P army.
lolz, i hate you ^^
<3
This thread is actually awesome...too bad there's no good P player to start a thread like this >.< (that is willing to, at least)
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All these advices sound great. I still think zerg is weird and hard to get use to.
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: How do you make your swarms look really awesome when pushing a T? I can never seem to get my swarms as well positioned as YellOw. They LOOK like they'll work well, but then my unit pathing makes all my lings run around the sides of the swarm where they all die and then I'm like TT
Do you send your lurkling in first, and then swarm on top of them while they're moving? 'cause my pre-attack swarm doesn't seem to work too hot. I don't really know how it "should" be done.
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- just thought of this
This defiler topic is really reminding me of HTs in PvT.
It's undeniable that HTs are awesome, but to use them in PvT is an abstract idea
One should first master the art of zeal/goon and then add HT into his arsenal
Similar to defilers in ZvX - just a thought
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On January 30 2007 21:26 Last Romantic wrote:
iNc: How do you make your swarms look really awesome when pushing a T? I can never seem to get my swarms as well positioned as YellOw. They LOOK like they'll work well, but then my unit pathing makes all my lings run around the sides of the swarm where they all die and then I'm like TT
Do you send your lurkling in first, and then swarm on top of them while they're moving? 'cause my pre-attack swarm doesn't seem to work too hot. I don't really know how it "should" be done.
Try clicking units on/near the edge of the enemy fray. So like 1-3 marines deep basically. This way you have a little bit of "buffer" that your lings will run along but also get their units under most of the swarm. Also be flexible in your casting, trying to precast the battle out wont be very good when they move to the left/right or just back. The only precast that works imo is casting directly on units, and I do this and find it useful when I have already won the bulk of the battle and am just pursuing the fleeing units so I can go back to macroing while the defiler gets in range and casts.
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United States20661 Posts
Seraphim, I would actually say DA in PvZ are like filer in ZvP. Rarely seen, but they have enormous capability - however, if you can't use them well, stick with the usual unit mixes.
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Adding HT to PvZ is like adding speedzeals to PvT. You pretty much can't go without. Do you learn to swing a baseball bat with your right hand and then try adding your left hand to it? T_T;;
Here's a thought for you all: scouting is great and all, but as people say, it's not the best economically. What I think you should also consider is that this economic difference actually shows up very early in the game. The earlier you scout, the longer it'll take for you to get lings. By doing a 9 drone scout, you potentially will know what your opponent is doing fairly early (but not before you commit to a 12 hatch, often times), which is great against rushes. But this knowledge might not actually help you survive the rush any better. Isn't it very possible that lings a couple/few seconds earlier (by not scouting) would help you even more? (a counterargument is how effective knowing that you need to pull drones/start creeps is, but still, you'd rather get away with the lings if possible, right?)
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United States20661 Posts
On January 30 2007 22:16 Myrmidon wrote:
Adding HT to PvZ is like adding speedzeals to PvT. You pretty much can't go without. Do you learn to swing a baseball bat with your right hand and then try adding your left hand to it? T_T;;
Here's a thought for you all: scouting is great and all, but as people say, it's not the best economically. What I think you should also consider is that this economic difference actually shows up very early in the game. The earlier you scout, the longer it'll take for you to get lings. By doing a 9 drone scout, you potentially will know what your opponent is doing fairly early (but not before you commit to a 12 hatch, often times), which is great against rushes. But this knowledge might not actually help you survive the rush any better. Isn't it very possible that lings a couple/few seconds earlier (by not scouting) would help you even more? (a counterargument is how effective knowing that you need to pull drones/start creeps is, but still, you'd rather get away with the lings if possible, right?)
Well, you're going to maynard 4-6 drones anyways, but I suppose starting the sunks before harass probes arrive is nice. Of course you could always pretend to be sAviOr and take the drones to go fight zealots 1v1 and devil-drone ftw...
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Actually, I would think that the most you should maynard is 3 drones for your first hatch, especially if you're being rushed.
As a zerg, you usually don't have to scout ZvP until you get your lings anyway, at which point you send 2 lings out to find them (if your lords haven't already) and then put the one that doesn't find them at their choke to check when they move out. If they've fast expanded, you can stop making lings for a bit; if they didn't, you probably have zealots knocking - if you don't, keep making lings at least until he gets a core anyway.
(I'm talking in a non-bunker rush situation, btw)
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: On the subject of maynarding, how many should you send to your nat when it finishes? Obviously situational and also Mu based and all, but if you could explain early maynarding numbers and reasons and purposes that would be nice.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I typically send 3-5 drones when I maynard. If vs T and I see a bunker rush coming potentially I send as many as 7-8 for drone use vs bunker.
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On January 30 2007 23:58 5HITCOMBO wrote:Actually, I would think that the most you should maynard is 3 drones for your first hatch, especially if you're being rushed. As a zerg, you usually don't have to scout ZvP until you get your lings anyway, at which point you send 2 lings out to find them (if your lords haven't already) and then put the one that doesn't find them at their choke to check when they move out. If they've fast expanded, you can stop making lings for a bit; if they didn't, you probably have zealots knocking - if you don't, keep making lings at least until he gets a core anyway. (I'm talking in a non-bunker rush situation, btw)
pgt got me into scouting earlier. its not fun getting surprised with a proxy =[. its also nice to know if hes going fe, cuz then you can drone whore earlier (or go all in if thats your style)
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Hey I have a quick question about muta/ling micro (although I feel pretty noob asking it!).
In any case, when you attack with muta/ling in a group, do you have your control group of lings go past the marines (move) and then hit (attack) as they're a little past them, while sending your mutas directly into the marine force? Or how do you do this in such a way that you can stop the m/m force from escaping.
I guess that question can also be applied to attacking mm force with lurk/ling, because whenever I do it the fuckers always escape!  Pls anyone help !
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You move your mutas on top of the marines before you sorround with your lings, your mutas will be your "meatshield" so that you can have as many lings alive and attacking.
If they retreat, you repeat, you move your mutas on top, and then, sorround with your lings.
As for ovie/larvae with muta micro, ive seen people suggesting that you have to tell the mutalisks to move beyond your target and then attack move or right click on your target, thats just wrong and your muta will move farther than you will want most of the times or you will right click some other unwanted target. Moving beyond your target should only be used when you actually dont want your muta to stop and follow their straight course after hitting your target. Else you should tell them to move before your target for them to gain a bit of momentum and then attack move or right click on your target, and then retreat.
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United States20661 Posts
July does it by ordering move into mineral line, then ordering a-click on SCV, then ordering retreat behind mineral line O_Oi so I suppose that's why people do it that way. It obviously works.
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Muta ling micro is sort of like this:
You want to use ling to kill MnM
Ling needs to flank to be effective
Lings get raped before you can flank MnM
So you use Mutalisk as meat shield to take the damage while the lings get more time to flank better
You therefore must still flank with your lings in Muta/Ling micro
Another advantage is that if MnM tries to run your muta will cause additional dmg
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On January 31 2007 09:01 Rayzorblade wrote:Hey I have a quick question about muta/ling micro (although I feel pretty noob asking it!). In any case, when you attack with muta/ling in a group, do you have your control group of lings go past the marines (move) and then hit (attack) as they're a little past them, while sending your mutas directly into the marine force? Or how do you do this in such a way that you can stop the m/m force from escaping. I guess that question can also be applied to attacking mm force with lurk/ling, because whenever I do it the fuckers always escape! Pls anyone help !
Depending on the situation, how many lings/muta you have and how easily the m/m can retreat, I usually try to catch them a bit less than half of my lings with the move command around the side until they cut off the escape slightly, then i attack with them, and the others from different angles, while the muta fly WITH a group of lings, maybe slightly behind them. You don't want to get them torn up by autotarget, but at the same time, you want the autotarget to keep your lings alive while they close the distance. Usually, once the lings are attacking, I pull the mutas back and do standard hit and run micro, but with attack-move instead of a-click, because it's better to spread the damage in this case (and you avoid picking off your own lings by mistake). Sometimes, if I feel that the terran will run and I can't cut off his m/m escape route, I try to cut him off from the direction he's escaping with mutas while the lings follow. As long as he's simply moving away, you should try to micro lings around, but once you have maybe half of his force surrounded, it's cool to just let them attack. As long as you're close enough for about half of your lings to do damage, you should be fine. Just make sure to keep flanking him as he tries to move back.
With lurkers, again, depending on how many you have (usually you want at least 4) you want to spread your lurks so they are perpendicular to the blob, then send them past it with the lings flanking in the same fashion as the mutas - but remember, usually they run, so sometimes you can anticipate this by moving the lings alongside. As your middle lurks get to the rines, select two or three of them and burrow them. The others should still be running past. Every time you pass the middle of the blob, burrow a few more, until you have surrounded the blob. Unburrow the ones that are out of range and send them forward again. It's important to almost NEVER burrow the entire group at once. The terran gets away, kills all your lings, and then usually a tank or sci will harass your lurkers. This is why it's important to burrow them in small groups.
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On January 31 2007 15:14 Last Romantic wrote:
July does it by ordering move into mineral line, then ordering a-click on SCV, then ordering retreat behind mineral line O_Oi so I suppose that's why people do it that way. It obviously works.
Yeah and thats exactly what i said.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 30 2007 22:16 Myrmidon wrote:
Adding HT to PvZ is like adding speedzeals to PvT. You pretty much can't go without. Do you learn to swing a baseball bat with your right hand and then try adding your left hand to it? T_T;;
Here's a thought for you all: scouting is great and all, but as people say, it's not the best economically. What I think you should also consider is that this economic difference actually shows up very early in the game. The earlier you scout, the longer it'll take for you to get lings. By doing a 9 drone scout, you potentially will know what your opponent is doing fairly early (but not before you commit to a 12 hatch, often times), which is great against rushes. But this knowledge might not actually help you survive the rush any better. Isn't it very possible that lings a couple/few seconds earlier (by not scouting) would help you even more? (a counterargument is how effective knowing that you need to pull drones/start creeps is, but still, you'd rather get away with the lings if possible, right?)
Thing is, as long as Zerg still has 150 minerals when the 3 larvae are there and the pool completes, that doesn't matter. You could have 158 minerals or 150 minerals when the 3 larvae are ready but either way you'll get the lings out at the same time. Zerg early game ling production is (for me at least) more often limited by larvae rather than by minerals.
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yes but if you 9 drone scout your hatch/pool will both be late so thus your zerglings also. 9 drone scout is good vs opponents you don't know who are likely to cheese or on big maps like arcadia. Honestly it doesn't matter when you scout with zerg as long as its not too early or too late, the minerals you lose matters so little. If you lose to a bunker rush it's because you microed badly not because you scouted too early.
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I think the exact time u gain when u not send a 9 scouting drone is 5 seconds. This obviously can help u against a rush. But when u send a 9 scouting drone u will most likely have your enemy scouted before you set a hatch. Especially on maps with some closer positions, where rush bos are more effective you should always be able to scout early enough to decide for a pool first build. Those maps are for example Gaia and arcadia, where the vertikal positions are very close. So there are 2 possibilities. Either you scout early enough to choose between a hatch or pool first build, or you scout later just to see which build your opponent is up to so u can decide wether to make lings or get a fast 3 hatch.
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How did u come op with this 5 seconds?
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I think Midian said it once in an advice thread and after that i tested it myself. And i think how early u scout also depends on the matchup. U can scout later in a zvp than a zvt because even if u dont scout the protoss on the first try u can still send an ovie and see what hes up to. Against a terran u can not do so, so without scouting via drone u are totally in the dark of what the terran might do.
And there is 1 thing i want to add to ovie scouting which not everyone does maybe. Lets take Luna for example u starting at 11. Now if u play against protoss i would recommend that u send your ovie to the 3 location , because this location has the closest expo to your location, so if the protoss goes for fe or proxy gates u will see it faster. So in general u send your ovie to the position which expo is closest to u. Against terran its the other way around. Starting at 11 again u should send your ovie to the 7 positon. This way u can easily scout his gas/gastiming which gives u a good clue of what strat hes going for even though u cant get a drone in his base anymore. Hope this is helpful for anyone.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 31 2007 17:08 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes but if you 9 drone scout your hatch/pool will both be late so thus your zerglings also. 9 drone scout is good vs opponents you don't know who are likely to cheese or on big maps like arcadia. Honestly it doesn't matter when you scout with zerg as long as its not too early or too late, the minerals you lose matters so little. If you lose to a bunker rush it's because you microed badly not because you scouted too early.
Kinda.. It does matter when you scout and "being to early" is impossible because what the hell is "to early" ? 5 drone scouting? I agree. But seeing the enemy before they begin teching isnt a bad thing. This allows you to harrass working units (be it a SCV which can pay for the scout itself) or probes which can end up messing a FE up or even killing a worker. In addition, losing to a bunker rush can have nothing to do with micro, If you dont scout and they boxer bunker rush with like 6 scv's you will die because you most likely dont have the 8 or so drones it takes to thwart this because you didnt scout. If you scout you can catch this and use the necessary drone force in compliment with your now 4 saved larvae for lings. Scouting is critical. The debate on hatch timing and such is true, you do delay by seconds the amount of hatches/lings. This however is mute when you consider the difference between being able to make 4 extra drones because you see them going FE (no threat / need for lings) aand them proxy gating in which you would need to cancel your hatch potentially. Both scenarios are examples where seconds faster lings dont matter and actually lose the game for you. I could name more. Point is, its always good to know what the opponent is doing, it will cost you seconds but that is fine as it could mean the difference between a win and a thumping.
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So what do you think of queen usage?
I think they're theoretically great vs terran and slowing down carriers for hydras to snipe with after a combination of plague and swarm. I also saw That one zerg try to toy around with Nazgul (By.cozyI think?) By going mass queens, didn't work out but he held a good fight with it :/
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Queens are an amazing complimentary unit. I prefer ensnare vs all mu's. Ensnare on mutas in late game allow for some awsome harrass, if you get them away from the main. Vs toss I like to brood HT's and parasite things like archons / shuttles. Vs T i like queens as a quick response to damaging a CC (only have to do half the damage with a queen) and I like ensnaring rines / brooding tanks. I think they are most useful against T's but should be a part of every late game.
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United States20661 Posts
Say you're going on with your normal 12 hatch 11 pool type build and you scout double proxy gateways, or triple proxy gateways - what is the response? Do you cancel, or do you spam creep colonies like a madman?
edit: also, what is the best response to cannon rush behind minerals like on RH3 or luna or w/e? try to slip a drone behind? because he dies 1v1 vs the probe. make sunkens? but he can manually target. you need a LOT of lings to kill if the pyl covers the cannon.
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A lot of tosses have been doing that hidden cannon behind the mins at natural on luna. The secret to beating it is to let it complete and attack your hatch while you build a sunken in range of THE PYLON. Then, have the sunk target the pylon while your lings distract the cannon if it gets close to killing your hatch. If he manually targets the hatch, use the lings to take out the pylon.
Voila, never lose to that stupid cannon rush again.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 01 2007 22:54 Last Romantic wrote:
Say you're going on with your normal 12 hatch 11 pool type build and you scout double proxy gateways, or triple proxy gateways - what is the response? Do you cancel, or do you spam creep colonies like a madman?
edit: also, what is the best response to cannon rush behind minerals like on RH3 or luna or w/e? try to slip a drone behind? because he dies 1v1 vs the probe. make sunkens? but he can manually target. you need a LOT of lings to kill if the pyl covers the cannon.
If its a big map like arcadia or perhaps Luna and you feel the timing is "ok" for you, try and micro with lings/few drones and make 1-2 sunks. If you are not confident in this cancel hatch and either gas faster in main + sunk or 2 hatch in main and fix on NOT allowing a contain. I usually cancel hatch and expo somewhere else while teching in main or 2 hatching in main. I also typically proxy hatch proxy gaters to give em a taste of their own medicine.
On maps like Blitz X, RH3 and such where cannon rushes are almost always tried you go 12 pool to expo. Or if its a average map but you suspect something keep an ovie near the nat hatch watching for lingering probes. If they block in cannons with a pylon you can do 1 of 2 things. A. bring a shit ton of drones and kill the pylon. Or B. cancel hatch and expo at another nat or something. I think B is safer but A can work too.
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United States42689 Posts
Dear INc
On maps like gaia with high gas, are arbs and sairs a viable tech change PvZ. And if so, when and why should I attempt this?
Thankooo
Kwark
:D
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 02 2007 04:42 Kwark wrote:
Dear INc
On maps like gaia with high gas, are arbs and sairs a viable tech change PvZ. And if so, when and why should I attempt this?
Thankooo
Kwark
:D
Sairs are always a viable tech where the expo has gas. Arbiters are a nice addition in very late game. I think both of these techs are viable, I wouldnt make some kind of strange early arbiter / sair tech on any map really PvZ but going sairs (to any degree you want) is fine on Gaia and making Arbiters for the end game can actually be very spicey if you mind the scourges :D
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Dear inc
How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons
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Actually, yeah, I have a bit of a problem with that as well. Usually I just let some expos fall while I mass up to take out his force, but he still has 8 gateways in his base pumping reinforcements.
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On February 02 2007 16:02 trickser wrote:Dear inc How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons
replay
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On February 03 2007 13:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2007 16:02 trickser wrote:Dear inc How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons replay
don't be a douche :p
My advise if it's acceptible is MORE LINGS DAMMIT!
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On February 03 2007 13:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2007 16:02 trickser wrote:Dear inc How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons replay
Replay
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32017
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: I noticed a lot of good ZvTers [junwi, cool[fou]] build a hatchery at Terran's expo instead of close to own base. In what cases is this useful? [Like in this game on Peaks, where Junwi was top right, he put his 3rd base at bottom right expo]
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^ Haha I actually have an offensive hatchery rep if u want it xD
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I think Last Romantic is talking about an expo on the enemy's side of the map (not at a far main on a >2 player map and not at min-only or something). That's just old-fashioned hidden expo, unless I'm missing something deeper. The less the enemy knows about your expo timing, the better. But is there a specific reason you'd want to do it, like to insinuate a lower base count so as to make the enemy think you're going faster hive and counter with faster vessel production while you're actually powering drone/lurk and not getting raped by the potential greater number of tanks he could have had? That's a bit far-fetched...or not.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 03 2007 21:26 Last Romantic wrote:
iNc: I noticed a lot of good ZvTers [junwi, cool[fou]] build a hatchery at Terran's expo instead of close to own base. In what cases is this useful? [Like in this game on Peaks, where Junwi was top right, he put his 3rd base at bottom right expo]
T's typically expand or even scout to their secondary nat base far later than they would predict a zerg to do the same. This means the zerg has a far greater chance of expanding without need of defense (early to mid). Had they expanded in predictable places like a natural expansion (for the starting spot) or another main they would typically have to make defenses ie lurkers on ramp or sunkens. Expanding to a opponent nat is also nice because if you defend it it is essentially stealing late game options from them. If the game develops and it becomes a resource game you now have a chunk of their "territory."
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 03 2007 22:38 Myrmidon wrote:
I think Last Romantic is talking about an expo on the enemy's side of the map (not at a far main on a >2 player map and not at min-only or something). That's just old-fashioned hidden expo, unless I'm missing something deeper. The less the enemy knows about your expo timing, the better. But is there a specific reason you'd want to do it, like to insinuate a lower base count so as to make the enemy think you're going faster hive and counter with faster vessel production while you're actually powering drone/lurk and not getting raped by the potential greater number of tanks he could have had? That's a bit far-fetched...or not.
For less obvious reasons his comments are also true. It does alot for hiding tech / strength as well. Pretty good comment here.
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EPT
