EPTOn January 29 2007 16:29 Detonate wrote:
good thing you took my post in the least intelligent way
good thing you took my post in the least intelligent way
Stop trying to turn this thread into a flamewar.
! [G] Zerg Mechanics Thread - Page 3
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
Stop trying to turn this thread into a flamewar. | ||
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
On January 29 2007 16:38 fusionsdf wrote: Stop trying to turn this thread into a flamewar. 100% agreed the man takes time out to make a thread, share his ideas and answer questions don't be a dick | ||
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Shiva_Chandra
Denmark341 Posts
Basically I'd really like you people's thought on this - is it "better" to rely on lurk/ling on bnet, and mutas when playing zero-latency? I've been trying lately and with great results personally | ||
Last Romantic
United States20667 Posts
On January 29 2007 20:31 Shiva_Chandra wrote: I don't want to hijack or sidetrack this post, but lately I've been putting a lot of thought into progaming (or high end korean gaming) vs "Foreign" gaming, and I'm actually starting to think that mutas in zvt is a lot more useful in lan/hamachi games, because they are simply that much easier AND better to micro (maybe I just suck on bnet, but my micro on hamachi is really really good compared to bnet), so I've noticed a lot of top foreign z's simply chose not to rely heavily on mutalisks (especially sen from the 15'ish zvt reps I have of him, he almost always opens 3 hatch ling/lurk with +1 carapace, and makes spire later on just for scourges). Basically I'd really like you people's thought on this - is it "better" to rely on lurk/ling on bnet, and mutas when playing zero-latency? I've been trying lately and with great results personally I think so yes. There's the fact that mutas are harder to micro in bnet [though still possible, your best bnet micro will not be as good as your best LAN micro for most gamers] as well as the fact that marine vs lurker is ALSO harder to micro on bnet [thus, you can abuse things a bit] | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12815 Posts
What is your opinion on Muta/Ling/Lurk? Say you have some left over mutalisks is it a good idea to attack with muta/ling/lurk sometimes? I find it extremely effective because most time with Lurk/Ling terran can just pull back units and since Lurker needs burrow and Ling is melee, you ended up with no damage done. However with mutalisks range, you can rape heckalot of MnM because while they retreat mutalisks fucks them up pretty well. ANy thoughts? ~_~ | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20667 Posts
On January 29 2007 21:20 houseurmusic wrote: Control please edit your defiler comment. That was the stupidest thing I have ever heard. who ARE you anyways? -_-;; inc: what are your opinions on two hand macro a la YellOw? or do you do it with just left hand, right hand stay on mouse? | ||
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houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
Usually dont post just read, but I had to make a comment on that. | ||
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
On January 30 2007 00:05 Last Romantic wrote: who ARE you anyways? -_-;; inc: what are your opinions on two hand macro a la YellOw? or do you do it with just left hand, right hand stay on mouse? ok im nto the only freak who 2hands sometimes ;x | ||
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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LastWish
2015 Posts
On January 28 2007 23:54 {88}iNcontroL wrote: PS: Stop making defilers vs Protoss. Unless they are heavy with goon/cannon it is retarded (or in late game for plague). I know you see Midian/Mondragon do it but they are retarded here. I think I got what he ment by it - imo it means first learn to play without them, then add them to your potential(same as I would recommend for PvT and carriers). It's just I was always defiler = archons less effective goons no damage, I must go for this unit. So I learnt to go every time defilers, and rely on them. But what it costed I didn't flank, and didn't focus to control my army properly or macro because I was way obsesed by them(ling+defiler drops to kill nexus for example). My question : vs a FE toss, compare 3 base vs 2 base zerg. I mean if zerg goes 2 base, is it viable? Isn't he in economical disadvantage vs toss in long run if he doesn't do some muta damage or sth? What are the possible ways to go early vs ground(zeal +1) FE with 3 base - are mutas viable, hydras or only lurks or +1 carapace? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 21:47 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Inc: What is your opinion on Muta/Ling/Lurk? Say you have some left over mutalisks is it a good idea to attack with muta/ling/lurk sometimes? I find it extremely effective because most time with Lurk/Ling terran can just pull back units and since Lurker needs burrow and Ling is melee, you ended up with no damage done. However with mutalisks range, you can rape heckalot of MnM because while they retreat mutalisks fucks them up pretty well. ANy thoughts? ~_~ Muta ling lurk is a fucking nice way to evolve after going mutas. The natural tech is a muta opening with a lurker switch. The remaining muts should be used here. Marines naturally target mutas first which is great because the real damage is going to come from the lurkers but also the mutas allow the lings to circle around and freeze the juicy marine force. Mutas also offer great flexibility post muta opening with defending rine drops or scraggling tanks/sci. If I had the micro and the macro for it I think I would open up every ZvT with some sort of muta build as it is just so powerful and if done right demands so much from the T to counter. But as I am only around 200 apm and my macro isn't the proud point of my game I tend to go lurker openings and gain advantages there. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 00:05 Last Romantic wrote: who ARE you anyways? -_-;; inc: what are your opinions on two hand macro a la YellOw? or do you do it with just left hand, right hand stay on mouse? When I went to WCG Seattle a few years back I was blown away by how much you can do with the keyboard in terms of macro. I think if you can do it it is fine, as finding the mouse with your hand is alot easier than finding keyboard placement so I see no give away with that. That being said, I think you can macro just fine with 1 hand and should probably work on maximizing the speed with that as you can simply multi task alot more / better if you are moving around with your mouse AND macroing with your hand as oppose to just macroing with your hands. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 09:50 LastWish wrote: I think I got what he ment by it - imo it means first learn to play without them, then add them to your potential(same as I would recommend for PvT and carriers). It's just I was always defiler = archons less effective goons no damage, I must go for this unit. So I learnt to go every time defilers, and rely on them. But what it costed I didn't flank, and didn't focus to control my army properly or macro because I was way obsesed by them(ling+defiler drops to kill nexus for example). My question : vs a FE toss, compare 3 base vs 2 base zerg. I mean if zerg goes 2 base, is it viable? Isn't he in economical disadvantage vs toss in long run if he doesn't do some muta damage or sth? What are the possible ways to go early vs ground(zeal +1) FE with 3 base - are mutas viable, hydras or only lurks or +1 carapace? Matching a P in FE games with same number of expos is a reaction not a mid-late game strategy. What Mondragon and other good Z's do is not panic and essentially take that time to strengthen their initial economy and gain a strong tech. From there they get to dictate the game. Lurkers force the P to get obs AND defend all angles of the expo nat from lurker range = slow P which than allows the Z to grab 1-2 expoes and be ahead again. Or muta at this point looks to do the same thing essentially only with an added risk of countering inside the P main forcing them to cannon that as well. The misnomer alot of Z's have is that they always have to be ahead in expo count with P's in order to survive. This actually works to their favor (P's). If you over extend and get 1-2 expos in addition to your nat prematurely you can get ran over by the ever-so-predictable +1 speed zeals. Similarly, if you grab only 1 more expo giving you 2 total but arent mining sufficiently you now have to defend 2 fronts which exposes you entirely. Watch mondragon reps and notice the time of which he grabs other expoes. dont copy it per se, but notice the mentality behind it. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On January 30 2007 16:21 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ya defiliers are useless vs P because making archons do 1/3 dmg is useless /sarcasm -.- InC you're a good player but I don't know what the fuck you were smoking here He was smoking Ultras run Archons the fuck over. If you learn how to play ZvP well, your late game transition means enough gas to pump ultra/ling and not have to worry about defilers. He's not saying they're not great units, but most people won't be able to hit the toss with a good swarm that they won't retreat out of or use storm on (oh shit, storm DOES work under swarm!?!?!), and plague isn't as useful as 12 ultras. | ||
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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GongKyuckTerran
Croatia1096 Posts
nice thread inc i have two things to ask; a)what is your muta hotkey or maybe midian's?,i mean when u doing muta micro u go "1a then click move with mouse or your go like 0p "p for patrol" i am keycraft user so i use "e" for patrol,easier to micro/macro... 1a/1e,2a/2e,3sd4sd etc b)when u flank with like 3or more groups do u use only 1a2a3a4a etc or u use patrol also i find patrol useful when flanking or attacking base with miners/static defense cuz units with "patrol" dont stuck like when u click "attack" they instantly attack nearest units what attacking them sorry for my english T_T | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
On January 29 2007 21:10 Cloud wrote: Good muta micro on bnet is not hard once you get used to the latency. Sorry man. Totally disagree with you here. You can sorta practice to get around the terrible latency, but even if you manage to micro extremely well it simply takes more time and intense management because of the lack of immediacy in the motions of your units. On Hamachi its pretty easy to do 2 clicks timed to go attack and run back or vice versa. On bnet the only way you can really micro mutas to a fast degree is to basically be constantly right clicking and it reduces the usefulness of a+move thusly and I think it makes it sort of a spam fest where the actual accuracy is quite reduced. I also agree with the dude who said lurkers are easier to use on non-bnet. Totally true, instant burrow is really useful and makes the unit a lot better without at least a half second delay. You could say this applies to everything(Like stimming marines or storm) but I really dont think its quite the same case, because a half second delay in stim will never outright kill marines or usually a temp. | ||
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