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On January 29 2007 10:07 Slayer91 wrote:
TL strategy forum:
P Thread = ends up in a discussion about balance
T Thread = ends up in a discussion about APM
Z Thread = great constructive threads with good players giving advice.
^^
Nice thread iNc. Although I disagree about the defiler bit, you don't have to bring them with every army if you want mobility, but they help a bunch vs any worthwhile P army.
lolz, i hate you ^^
<3
This thread is actually awesome...too bad there's no good P player to start a thread like this >.< (that is willing to, at least)
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All these advices sound great. I still think zerg is weird and hard to get use to.
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: How do you make your swarms look really awesome when pushing a T? I can never seem to get my swarms as well positioned as YellOw. They LOOK like they'll work well, but then my unit pathing makes all my lings run around the sides of the swarm where they all die and then I'm like TT
Do you send your lurkling in first, and then swarm on top of them while they're moving? 'cause my pre-attack swarm doesn't seem to work too hot. I don't really know how it "should" be done.
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- just thought of this 
This defiler topic is really reminding me of HTs in PvT.
It's undeniable that HTs are awesome, but to use them in PvT is an abstract idea
One should first master the art of zeal/goon and then add HT into his arsenal
Similar to defilers in ZvX - just a thought 
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On January 30 2007 21:26 Last Romantic wrote:
iNc: How do you make your swarms look really awesome when pushing a T? I can never seem to get my swarms as well positioned as YellOw. They LOOK like they'll work well, but then my unit pathing makes all my lings run around the sides of the swarm where they all die and then I'm like TT
Do you send your lurkling in first, and then swarm on top of them while they're moving? 'cause my pre-attack swarm doesn't seem to work too hot. I don't really know how it "should" be done.
Try clicking units on/near the edge of the enemy fray. So like 1-3 marines deep basically. This way you have a little bit of "buffer" that your lings will run along but also get their units under most of the swarm. Also be flexible in your casting, trying to precast the battle out wont be very good when they move to the left/right or just back. The only precast that works imo is casting directly on units, and I do this and find it useful when I have already won the bulk of the battle and am just pursuing the fleeing units so I can go back to macroing while the defiler gets in range and casts.
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United States20661 Posts
Seraphim, I would actually say DA in PvZ are like filer in ZvP. Rarely seen, but they have enormous capability - however, if you can't use them well, stick with the usual unit mixes.
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Adding HT to PvZ is like adding speedzeals to PvT. You pretty much can't go without. Do you learn to swing a baseball bat with your right hand and then try adding your left hand to it? T_T;;
Here's a thought for you all: scouting is great and all, but as people say, it's not the best economically. What I think you should also consider is that this economic difference actually shows up very early in the game. The earlier you scout, the longer it'll take for you to get lings. By doing a 9 drone scout, you potentially will know what your opponent is doing fairly early (but not before you commit to a 12 hatch, often times), which is great against rushes. But this knowledge might not actually help you survive the rush any better. Isn't it very possible that lings a couple/few seconds earlier (by not scouting) would help you even more? (a counterargument is how effective knowing that you need to pull drones/start creeps is, but still, you'd rather get away with the lings if possible, right?)
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United States20661 Posts
On January 30 2007 22:16 Myrmidon wrote:
Adding HT to PvZ is like adding speedzeals to PvT. You pretty much can't go without. Do you learn to swing a baseball bat with your right hand and then try adding your left hand to it? T_T;;
Here's a thought for you all: scouting is great and all, but as people say, it's not the best economically. What I think you should also consider is that this economic difference actually shows up very early in the game. The earlier you scout, the longer it'll take for you to get lings. By doing a 9 drone scout, you potentially will know what your opponent is doing fairly early (but not before you commit to a 12 hatch, often times), which is great against rushes. But this knowledge might not actually help you survive the rush any better. Isn't it very possible that lings a couple/few seconds earlier (by not scouting) would help you even more? (a counterargument is how effective knowing that you need to pull drones/start creeps is, but still, you'd rather get away with the lings if possible, right?)
Well, you're going to maynard 4-6 drones anyways, but I suppose starting the sunks before harass probes arrive is nice. Of course you could always pretend to be sAviOr and take the drones to go fight zealots 1v1 and devil-drone ftw...
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Actually, I would think that the most you should maynard is 3 drones for your first hatch, especially if you're being rushed.
As a zerg, you usually don't have to scout ZvP until you get your lings anyway, at which point you send 2 lings out to find them (if your lords haven't already) and then put the one that doesn't find them at their choke to check when they move out. If they've fast expanded, you can stop making lings for a bit; if they didn't, you probably have zealots knocking - if you don't, keep making lings at least until he gets a core anyway.
(I'm talking in a non-bunker rush situation, btw)
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: On the subject of maynarding, how many should you send to your nat when it finishes? Obviously situational and also Mu based and all, but if you could explain early maynarding numbers and reasons and purposes that would be nice.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I typically send 3-5 drones when I maynard. If vs T and I see a bunker rush coming potentially I send as many as 7-8 for drone use vs bunker.
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On January 30 2007 23:58 5HITCOMBO wrote:Actually, I would think that the most you should maynard is 3 drones for your first hatch, especially if you're being rushed. As a zerg, you usually don't have to scout ZvP until you get your lings anyway, at which point you send 2 lings out to find them (if your lords haven't already) and then put the one that doesn't find them at their choke to check when they move out. If they've fast expanded, you can stop making lings for a bit; if they didn't, you probably have zealots knocking - if you don't, keep making lings at least until he gets a core anyway. (I'm talking in a non-bunker rush situation, btw)
pgt got me into scouting earlier. its not fun getting surprised with a proxy =[. its also nice to know if hes going fe, cuz then you can drone whore earlier (or go all in if thats your style)
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Hey I have a quick question about muta/ling micro (although I feel pretty noob asking it!).
In any case, when you attack with muta/ling in a group, do you have your control group of lings go past the marines (move) and then hit (attack) as they're a little past them, while sending your mutas directly into the marine force? Or how do you do this in such a way that you can stop the m/m force from escaping.
I guess that question can also be applied to attacking mm force with lurk/ling, because whenever I do it the fuckers always escape!  Pls anyone help !
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You move your mutas on top of the marines before you sorround with your lings, your mutas will be your "meatshield" so that you can have as many lings alive and attacking.
If they retreat, you repeat, you move your mutas on top, and then, sorround with your lings.
As for ovie/larvae with muta micro, ive seen people suggesting that you have to tell the mutalisks to move beyond your target and then attack move or right click on your target, thats just wrong and your muta will move farther than you will want most of the times or you will right click some other unwanted target. Moving beyond your target should only be used when you actually dont want your muta to stop and follow their straight course after hitting your target. Else you should tell them to move before your target for them to gain a bit of momentum and then attack move or right click on your target, and then retreat.
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United States20661 Posts
July does it by ordering move into mineral line, then ordering a-click on SCV, then ordering retreat behind mineral line O_Oi so I suppose that's why people do it that way. It obviously works.
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Muta ling micro is sort of like this:
You want to use ling to kill MnM
Ling needs to flank to be effective
Lings get raped before you can flank MnM
So you use Mutalisk as meat shield to take the damage while the lings get more time to flank better
You therefore must still flank with your lings in Muta/Ling micro
Another advantage is that if MnM tries to run your muta will cause additional dmg
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On January 31 2007 09:01 Rayzorblade wrote:Hey I have a quick question about muta/ling micro (although I feel pretty noob asking it!). In any case, when you attack with muta/ling in a group, do you have your control group of lings go past the marines (move) and then hit (attack) as they're a little past them, while sending your mutas directly into the marine force? Or how do you do this in such a way that you can stop the m/m force from escaping. I guess that question can also be applied to attacking mm force with lurk/ling, because whenever I do it the fuckers always escape! Pls anyone help !
Depending on the situation, how many lings/muta you have and how easily the m/m can retreat, I usually try to catch them a bit less than half of my lings with the move command around the side until they cut off the escape slightly, then i attack with them, and the others from different angles, while the muta fly WITH a group of lings, maybe slightly behind them. You don't want to get them torn up by autotarget, but at the same time, you want the autotarget to keep your lings alive while they close the distance. Usually, once the lings are attacking, I pull the mutas back and do standard hit and run micro, but with attack-move instead of a-click, because it's better to spread the damage in this case (and you avoid picking off your own lings by mistake). Sometimes, if I feel that the terran will run and I can't cut off his m/m escape route, I try to cut him off from the direction he's escaping with mutas while the lings follow. As long as he's simply moving away, you should try to micro lings around, but once you have maybe half of his force surrounded, it's cool to just let them attack. As long as you're close enough for about half of your lings to do damage, you should be fine. Just make sure to keep flanking him as he tries to move back.
With lurkers, again, depending on how many you have (usually you want at least 4) you want to spread your lurks so they are perpendicular to the blob, then send them past it with the lings flanking in the same fashion as the mutas - but remember, usually they run, so sometimes you can anticipate this by moving the lings alongside. As your middle lurks get to the rines, select two or three of them and burrow them. The others should still be running past. Every time you pass the middle of the blob, burrow a few more, until you have surrounded the blob. Unburrow the ones that are out of range and send them forward again. It's important to almost NEVER burrow the entire group at once. The terran gets away, kills all your lings, and then usually a tank or sci will harass your lurkers. This is why it's important to burrow them in small groups.
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On January 31 2007 15:14 Last Romantic wrote:
July does it by ordering move into mineral line, then ordering a-click on SCV, then ordering retreat behind mineral line O_Oi so I suppose that's why people do it that way. It obviously works.
Yeah and thats exactly what i said.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 30 2007 22:16 Myrmidon wrote:
Adding HT to PvZ is like adding speedzeals to PvT. You pretty much can't go without. Do you learn to swing a baseball bat with your right hand and then try adding your left hand to it? T_T;;
Here's a thought for you all: scouting is great and all, but as people say, it's not the best economically. What I think you should also consider is that this economic difference actually shows up very early in the game. The earlier you scout, the longer it'll take for you to get lings. By doing a 9 drone scout, you potentially will know what your opponent is doing fairly early (but not before you commit to a 12 hatch, often times), which is great against rushes. But this knowledge might not actually help you survive the rush any better. Isn't it very possible that lings a couple/few seconds earlier (by not scouting) would help you even more? (a counterargument is how effective knowing that you need to pull drones/start creeps is, but still, you'd rather get away with the lings if possible, right?)
Thing is, as long as Zerg still has 150 minerals when the 3 larvae are there and the pool completes, that doesn't matter. You could have 158 minerals or 150 minerals when the 3 larvae are ready but either way you'll get the lings out at the same time. Zerg early game ling production is (for me at least) more often limited by larvae rather than by minerals.
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yes but if you 9 drone scout your hatch/pool will both be late so thus your zerglings also. 9 drone scout is good vs opponents you don't know who are likely to cheese or on big maps like arcadia. Honestly it doesn't matter when you scout with zerg as long as its not too early or too late, the minerals you lose matters so little. If you lose to a bunker rush it's because you microed badly not because you scouted too early.
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EPT
