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! [G] Zerg Mechanics Thread - Page 5

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
January 31 2007 18:33 GMT
#81
I think the exact time u gain when u not send a 9 scouting drone is 5 seconds. This obviously can help u against a rush. But when u send a 9 scouting drone u will most likely have your enemy scouted before you set a hatch. Especially on maps with some closer positions, where rush bos are more effective you should always be able to scout early enough to decide for a pool first build. Those maps are for example Gaia and arcadia, where the vertikal positions are very close. So there are 2 possibilities. Either you scout early enough to choose between a hatch or pool first build, or you scout later just to see which build your opponent is up to so u can decide wether to make lings or get a fast 3 hatch.
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
Overlord
Profile Joined May 2003
Romania651 Posts
January 31 2007 19:56 GMT
#82
How did u come op with this 5 seconds?
God is dead - Nietzsche ; Nietzsche is dead - God
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-01-31 21:00:53
January 31 2007 20:51 GMT
#83
I think Midian said it once in an advice thread and after that i tested it myself. And i think how early u scout also depends on the matchup. U can scout later in a zvp than a zvt because even if u dont scout the protoss on the first try u can still send an ovie and see what hes up to. Against a terran u can not do so, so without scouting via drone u are totally in the dark of what the terran might do.

And there is 1 thing i want to add to ovie scouting which not everyone does maybe. Lets take Luna for example u starting at 11. Now if u play against protoss i would recommend that u send your ovie to the 3 location , because this location has the closest expo to your location, so if the protoss goes for fe or proxy gates u will see it faster. So in general u send your ovie to the position which expo is closest to u. Against terran its the other way around. Starting at 11 again u should send your ovie to the 7 positon. This way u can easily scout his gas/gastiming which gives u a good clue of what strat hes going for even though u cant get a drone in his base anymore. Hope this is helpful for anyone.
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
February 01 2007 02:05 GMT
#84
On January 31 2007 17:08 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes but if you 9 drone scout your hatch/pool will both be late so thus your zerglings also. 9 drone scout is good vs opponents you don't know who are likely to cheese or on big maps like arcadia. Honestly it doesn't matter when you scout with zerg as long as its not too early or too late, the minerals you lose matters so little. If you lose to a bunker rush it's because you microed badly not because you scouted too early.


Kinda.. It does matter when you scout and "being to early" is impossible because what the hell is "to early" ? 5 drone scouting? I agree. But seeing the enemy before they begin teching isnt a bad thing. This allows you to harrass working units (be it a SCV which can pay for the scout itself) or probes which can end up messing a FE up or even killing a worker. In addition, losing to a bunker rush can have nothing to do with micro, If you dont scout and they boxer bunker rush with like 6 scv's you will die because you most likely dont have the 8 or so drones it takes to thwart this because you didnt scout. If you scout you can catch this and use the necessary drone force in compliment with your now 4 saved larvae for lings. Scouting is critical. The debate on hatch timing and such is true, you do delay by seconds the amount of hatches/lings. This however is mute when you consider the difference between being able to make 4 extra drones because you see them going FE (no threat / need for lings) aand them proxy gating in which you would need to cancel your hatch potentially. Both scenarios are examples where seconds faster lings dont matter and actually lose the game for you. I could name more. Point is, its always good to know what the opponent is doing, it will cost you seconds but that is fine as it could mean the difference between a win and a thumping.
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
February 01 2007 12:28 GMT
#85
So what do you think of queen usage?
I think they're theoretically great vs terran and slowing down carriers for hydras to snipe with after a combination of plague and swarm. I also saw That one zerg try to toy around with Nazgul (By.cozyI think?) By going mass queens, didn't work out but he held a good fight with it :/

iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
February 01 2007 13:50 GMT
#86
Queens are an amazing complimentary unit. I prefer ensnare vs all mu's. Ensnare on mutas in late game allow for some awsome harrass, if you get them away from the main. Vs toss I like to brood HT's and parasite things like archons / shuttles. Vs T i like queens as a quick response to damaging a CC (only have to do half the damage with a queen) and I like ensnaring rines / brooding tanks. I think they are most useful against T's but should be a part of every late game.
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-01 13:55:33
February 01 2007 13:54 GMT
#87
Say you're going on with your normal 12 hatch 11 pool type build and you scout double proxy gateways, or triple proxy gateways - what is the response? Do you cancel, or do you spam creep colonies like a madman?

edit: also, what is the best response to cannon rush behind minerals like on RH3 or luna or w/e? try to slip a drone behind? because he dies 1v1 vs the probe. make sunkens? but he can manually target. you need a LOT of lings to kill if the pyl covers the cannon.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
5HITCOMBO
Profile Joined March 2006
Japan2239 Posts
February 01 2007 16:02 GMT
#88
A lot of tosses have been doing that hidden cannon behind the mins at natural on luna. The secret to beating it is to let it complete and attack your hatch while you build a sunken in range of THE PYLON. Then, have the sunk target the pylon while your lings distract the cannon if it gets close to killing your hatch. If he manually targets the hatch, use the lings to take out the pylon.

Voila, never lose to that stupid cannon rush again.
I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
February 01 2007 17:31 GMT
#89
On February 01 2007 22:54 Last Romantic wrote:
Say you're going on with your normal 12 hatch 11 pool type build and you scout double proxy gateways, or triple proxy gateways - what is the response? Do you cancel, or do you spam creep colonies like a madman?

edit: also, what is the best response to cannon rush behind minerals like on RH3 or luna or w/e? try to slip a drone behind? because he dies 1v1 vs the probe. make sunkens? but he can manually target. you need a LOT of lings to kill if the pyl covers the cannon.


If its a big map like arcadia or perhaps Luna and you feel the timing is "ok" for you, try and micro with lings/few drones and make 1-2 sunks. If you are not confident in this cancel hatch and either gas faster in main + sunk or 2 hatch in main and fix on NOT allowing a contain. I usually cancel hatch and expo somewhere else while teching in main or 2 hatching in main. I also typically proxy hatch proxy gaters to give em a taste of their own medicine.

On maps like Blitz X, RH3 and such where cannon rushes are almost always tried you go 12 pool to expo. Or if its a average map but you suspect something keep an ovie near the nat hatch watching for lingering probes. If they block in cannons with a pylon you can do 1 of 2 things. A. bring a shit ton of drones and kill the pylon. Or B. cancel hatch and expo at another nat or something. I think B is safer but A can work too.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42950 Posts
February 01 2007 19:42 GMT
#90
Dear INc
On maps like gaia with high gas, are arbs and sairs a viable tech change PvZ. And if so, when and why should I attempt this?
Thankooo
Kwark

:D
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
February 01 2007 23:43 GMT
#91
On February 02 2007 04:42 Kwark wrote:
Dear INc
On maps like gaia with high gas, are arbs and sairs a viable tech change PvZ. And if so, when and why should I attempt this?
Thankooo
Kwark

:D


Sairs are always a viable tech where the expo has gas. Arbiters are a nice addition in very late game. I think both of these techs are viable, I wouldnt make some kind of strange early arbiter / sair tech on any map really PvZ but going sairs (to any degree you want) is fine on Gaia and making Arbiters for the end game can actually be very spicey if you mind the scourges :D
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
February 02 2007 07:02 GMT
#92
Dear inc

How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
5HITCOMBO
Profile Joined March 2006
Japan2239 Posts
February 03 2007 04:17 GMT
#93
Actually, yeah, I have a bit of a problem with that as well. Usually I just let some expos fall while I mass up to take out his force, but he still has 8 gateways in his base pumping reinforcements.
I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
February 03 2007 04:32 GMT
#94
On February 02 2007 16:02 trickser wrote:
Dear inc

How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons


replay
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
February 03 2007 04:36 GMT
#95
On February 03 2007 13:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2007 16:02 trickser wrote:
Dear inc

How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons


replay


don't be a douche :p
My advise if it's acceptible is MORE LINGS DAMMIT!
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
February 03 2007 06:06 GMT
#96
On February 03 2007 13:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2007 16:02 trickser wrote:
Dear inc

How do u handle a protoss with 2 bases which masses goons and breaks your lurk contain. I find myself very helpless against this. Maybe i can hold off till i get hive, but mass goons kill my ultas anyways and mass lings get slaugthered by storm. Which is the best choice? Should i try to prolong the containment but have a weak eco or should i try not to infest too much into it so i can mass units afterwards? I kinda always get run over by mass goons


replay


Replay
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32017
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
February 03 2007 12:26 GMT
#97
iNc: I noticed a lot of good ZvTers [junwi, cool[fou]] build a hatchery at Terran's expo instead of close to own base. In what cases is this useful? [Like in this game on Peaks, where Junwi was top right, he put his 3rd base at bottom right expo]
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
February 03 2007 13:00 GMT
#98
^ Haha I actually have an offensive hatchery rep if u want it xD
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
February 03 2007 13:38 GMT
#99
I think Last Romantic is talking about an expo on the enemy's side of the map (not at a far main on a >2 player map and not at min-only or something). That's just old-fashioned hidden expo, unless I'm missing something deeper. The less the enemy knows about your expo timing, the better. But is there a specific reason you'd want to do it, like to insinuate a lower base count so as to make the enemy think you're going faster hive and counter with faster vessel production while you're actually powering drone/lurk and not getting raped by the potential greater number of tanks he could have had? That's a bit far-fetched...or not.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
February 07 2007 05:39 GMT
#100
On February 03 2007 21:26 Last Romantic wrote:
iNc: I noticed a lot of good ZvTers [junwi, cool[fou]] build a hatchery at Terran's expo instead of close to own base. In what cases is this useful? [Like in this game on Peaks, where Junwi was top right, he put his 3rd base at bottom right expo]


T's typically expand or even scout to their secondary nat base far later than they would predict a zerg to do the same. This means the zerg has a far greater chance of expanding without need of defense (early to mid). Had they expanded in predictable places like a natural expansion (for the starting spot) or another main they would typically have to make defenses ie lurkers on ramp or sunkens. Expanding to a opponent nat is also nice because if you defend it it is essentially stealing late game options from them. If the game develops and it becomes a resource game you now have a chunk of their "territory."
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