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! [G] iNc advice for Z's

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-18 18:50:20
January 28 2007 15:23 GMT
#1
ZergVsZerg: This is probably my best mu. The only Z's I fear here are Hullah and Mondragon as they seem to just always beat me.

I am a very timing oriented ZvZ user. Typically my bo's rotate around 9pool speed to 1 hatch muta, 12 gas, 11 pool 13 lair 13 hatch, 12pool expand (RH3 / Luna only usually) or simple 12 hatch in base 12 pool 11 gas and power ling/scourge. I find these bo's to be the most effective, rotate around with them so no z can pin you as a 1 trick pony.

What If they FE and I dont?: I go for several things at this point. Try and force them to make spores and defend up. If you can get them to commit alot of drones JUST to reacting to you you can bend this your favor. I 9pool alot, so if they somehow survive the rush they have to spore up which means you justmacro better and its gg. Lets assume that didnt happen. Lets assume you inbase hatched or even just 13 gas 12 pool or w/e. Try and get a faster lair. If you cannot get a ling powered force. If they make 2-4 sunkens or something use this to trip hatch at expo yourself. From here go scourge early with drones so that once expo is ready you can assume mining at same rate opponent is most likely doing.

How do I handle scourge heavy Z's?: Although rare, some Z's still go ling/scourge with trip hatch or even +1 ling. If thishappens it is important to mass up your mutas and NOT BE WASTEFUL! You must pick some scourge off. This means when mutas are initially made run them away from the main as it can be safe to assume they will come with early scourge to pick off mutas. Group mutas off center and hit scourge wherever you can. If they push for an expo this is when timing comes in. You need to gauge if you have enough muta to just clump and attack. If you feel like you could absorb the scourge do so, move in with muta first and have ling in the "waiting" absorb the scourge and then immediatly target the lings of the opponent. The key here is that you will win with an overwhelming ling force not the expected Muta force. This can be tricky but if you gauge it correctly you are fine. If this isnt an option just expand yourself and continue to mind scourge.

What do you do in ZvZ?: As I said I cycle the bo's previously mentioned. My mentality in ZvZ is to completely abuse the macro of the other user. If they expand I want to attack shortly after the hatch is finished with MORE lings and enough muta/scourge to eliminate/reduce his mutas to nothing. If they go a hatch heavy bo I want to have an ultra fast lair so that they panic and go allin lings or spore to recover. If it becomes a ling buildup game I want 2-4 lings off ramp and ready to run in his base and pick off 1-3 drones. This style allows me to win many zvsz's. Use scourge intelligently. I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group. This reduces most of the mutas to sub 20 health weaklings, easy picking for my mutas. This is probably the single most lethal trick I do ZvZ.

Long ZvZ's are tricky and hard. Really difficult to give advice, so ask specific Q's and I will give my best response. As for this, just try and secure an equal or +1 geyser advantage by sneaking an expo and having a few lings on the ramp. If the game permits, make 1-3 spore with a sunk so the expo is not a simply task for the opponent to wipe out. If opponent gets an expo on you DONT PANIC this can be the gift you wanted. Now he has to defend 2 fronts. Hit one with lings and send the mutas to the base for the spire. Continue to do this until the Z is scrap.

ZergVsProtoss: If not my best it is my second best. I tend to have problems vs P's that mass and roll like Fayth used to do and Oldy does now. That being said I still do pretty well vs P I am 6-1 vs By.Kiss aka Siz)O.ov for example, I know my stuff here and when im in shape I am pretty damn good at this.

My bo's tend to be 12 expand 11 pool. I go 3 hatch most of the time with variations from ling-to hive or ling-lurker or ling-muta. Can you see a trend? I like to make lings. I think making lings checks back the P's tendency to get cocky with things like power 2 gate to expo or earlier double FE or lazy FE period. If you can get lings into a P's base scouting on that level is invaluable as well as the potential to just end it. My mentality for ZvP is harrass harrass harrass and oops! I have 12 ultras that are now 5-3. I do this by granting myself a "contain" mindset or security bo. I get faster lurks so the P is contained. Or I get mutalisks so the P has to stay at home. Or I make so many lings that are 1-1 (dual evo) the P cannot do anything until storm/archon. By which time I now have hive and crack upgrades (sometimes drop).

Biggest tip in general?: To many Z's don't make spires for scourge vs P. P's love them a good reaver/storm/dt drop. The best way to ruin this party is have a continual 4-8 patrol of scourge at different spots. I always put them below an expo/main and sometimes at random points on the map. Cannot tell you how many times they have randomly ruined a P's day or come in handly as a means of stopping the drop.

What do we do vs Sair/Reaver?: Well if the map screams this like Archadia make your normal build only make 1 evo or maybe 2 and go hydra ups. Get ovie speed and get hydra speed/range before lurker ups. Go mass hydra and crack the front of the P when he over commits to taking out expos. If he is patient (pussy) take madd expos and eventually tech to devourers. I like to go drop myself as I am a spiteful bastard but it also makes the P commit to a solid home and when reaver/sair is the units of choice extra minerals is critical. Hold the P to only 2-3 expos (have to on Archadia) otherwise this cang et out of hand. Dont ignore the possibility of Carriers later either (upgrade armor for air and have scourge handy/defilers).

What about basic FE-+1 Speed Zeal?: DONT PANICK you dont need to grab 30 expansions and get a tech advantage. Watch Mondragon reps, he usually only matches their expo count until he gets a lurker / ling force. I do something similar. I grab a mineral only (they rarely check these) and dual evo with mass ling. This allows me to block them from equalling me in expos and it also perfectly counters the ever-so-predictable +1 zeal attack with my own 1-1 lings. I usually overrun the P's force and risk overrunning the P in general. From there I can macro (+1 geyser) and tech to ultras that are typically 4-2 vs the 2-0 P. Do not let that P grab another expo. When they are attacking with the +1 zeals they are typically expoing behind that attack, send a few lings to make them cancel the pylon/cannons so that you can deal with it without it being a bristle defense fortress.

ZergVsTerran: Probably my worst MU but I still consider myself very good here and I know alot in regard to this mu. I took 4th in TLT2 facing almost all T's and I train alot with players like testie(t) and idra(t) as well as koreans in G.s and rex[aegis]/dream.T)Zoker.

The style I like to play in ZvT is not surprisingly a very power oriented ZvT that features upgrade advantages, drop harrassment and sneaky expoing. I initially open up with 3 hatch macro builds on common maps like Luna, Rpoint, LT and such. I like to throw down 2 evos before my tech finishes ie: spire is done or lurker upgrade is complete. If I know the T to be low tank count user I go hydra/lurk if they are more of a tank user (almost all non kors are) it is smarter to be a melee styled Z here so you upgrade accordingly. I 80% of the time open with lurk oriented builds because I simply don't handle mutas well enough and find myself losing most games I open with mutas as oppose to me winning most of my lurker games. I like to get a strong drone count going as well as early ups and than push out with my lurker / ling force with the intention of containing / potential victory but also establishing 1-2 more gas expos with lurkers on ramp. From here, if I dont have a spire already I throw one of those down for two reasons. I will ALWAYS have scourge in key places for rine dropes IE above main or cliffs of nats and I want to be able to pick off that first sci vessel. Remember to make drones for the expos because shortly after those are finished the T will roll out with its first real force including a sci vessel. I do what I can to try and get that initial sci vessel by using lings and scourge to pick it off. This buys CRUCIAL time for you. If you cant it isnt the end of the world but it sure as heck is alot harder. By this time you should also have a 4th hatch and ample economy to being pumping massive amounts of lurker and 1/1 lings to deal with the T. I like this style because it is fairly easy to manage, allows for counters (a mainstay in my strategy) and it is easy to go straight into hive which is where the game really gets fun.

How do you handle early tank pushes? Like 1 base tank pressure?
the way to deal with this is first know your opponent. For me I know that CDS)Predy, Satanik and others are fairly likely to do builds of this nature. Secondly, good scouting is key to all z mu's but especially zvt. Have that ovie on his exit point. Use those lings to check his rine count. Have that ovie see if early gas is being utilized. The list goes on. If you suspect a tank push is coming you should be going muta. I have won going lurker but I think the standard and safer response is clearly a muta opening. This is another time when Z's lose because of panicking. Dont just throw your mutas at the T. Get the force going and than pick what you can at the blockade, aim for scvs tanks and possibly lone rines. After you have forced the T to entrench go to the no-mans land with the mutas and hit reinforcements. Check the T main for vulnerability and continue to mass mutas / lings (make more sunks) until you have what you believe to be sufficient enough to take the T blockade out. itis important to remember that every free hit you give the T on your mutas ie with a turret or bunker could mean the game. be careful to only go after what you must. Once you break the T the game is clearly not over. remake the drones you lost and tech to lurker while expanding to another main or gas expo. The T will most likely look for an expo now so watch for an opening with your ling / mutas.

How do you handle rine drops?
Most importantly as I mentioned before is to always have a spire->scourge. To many z's just dont make a spire because they aren't going mutas. Scourge are essential as a deterrent but also strategically for sci vessels later in the game. Another common z trend lately is to make a sunk at your main. This is done to protect the production buildings but also buy you time to get a ling force to the drop site and scourge the ship. This is brilliant because of its low cost but potential for insurmountable benefits. Scouting becomes a big part of this as well. to many z's clump ovies and stick them in the corner. Spread those out. I always surround my expos and main bases with ovie spotters looking for a drop or wraith. This should be done ALL GAME LONG. Something I do 100% of the time and equates to much of my success.

How do you handle mech T?: Mech T is rare but can be devestating. The thing to keep in mind is mech T is not made to be a early game strategy except for the initial vult attack (be it 1-2 or speed vults numbering 6-8). Abuse this, grab a mineral nat and perhaps another main or gas nat so that you can simply drown the T in zerg. Upgrades are critical. Dual evo here and upgrade hydra ups. My philosophy is to have a gaggle of mutas with armor upgrade and than an ocean of hydras / lurkers. I like to also have a strong countering army poised to go into the main of the T should they leave the base unaware. I like this because of the potential to gain advantages like free lurker shots but also it cripples the T economy and lazy t's will scraggle sci vessels which could end the game on its face there. While thats going on macro up out of your mass economy and simply hit the back of the T force which should be either unsieged tanks or vulnerable gols. Countering mech T is more of a mindset, Z's lose vs this because we get entrenched in habits and ideals that simply dont apply to this mu as much.

How do you handle SKTerran?: Hydra/Lurk imo is the best. Most important thing to ALWAYS remember is MIND THE SCI VESSELS. be it scourge or simply hitting them with hydras DO NOT let the ball get rolling. If you allow the T to sit on 10 sci vessels you simply wont win unless some clueless error should emerge on the T's behalf. Upgrades are key here as T's who skterran almost always dual ebay. The other thing to keep in mind is to be hell-bent on defending gas expos. You can have all the minerals in the world but unless you can manage your gas to continue to make scourge/lurker and hydra you wont do squat. Lurker ramps, sunken mineral lines and have nydus in late game. Do it all. Also, countering vs a SKTerran is not recommended. Part of the magic of SKTerran is the massive marine force that always seems to exist. Looking for a counter wont do much, mind the forces out in the field and always hit those sci vessels where you can.

General tips vs FE T's?: This right now is the most common trend amongst T's. They will almost always FE. One of my recent responses has been Bo's that abuse this trend. Kill the early scv scout. Upgrade ling speed before lair and simply make 20 lings or so (should finish bout than) and (if doable) run over the un-medded rine force stoppin the expo or winning the game. While doing this tech to lurker/muta for the end game.

In general though, all-in builds arent great to rely on so some thoughts on this: Try incorporating a expo sneak. You would be surprised to know how many T's never scout other expos in the early game. Set up another geyser and 2 lurk the ramp or make sunks. Now you are ahead and sufficiently so. If they are a bit of a scouter, try sneaking a mineral only nat. T'S NEVER CHECK FOR THESE and it can be a huge bonus. Once I establish this I am able to afford 1-3 more hatcheries which is pivotal for mass ling / lurker style. Another great response is drop. I sometimes start my slow drop upgrade right when the lair finishes (even before I start my Lurk upgrade) this allows for the potential lurk drop on mineral lines or wait for speed and doom drop the T as they leave OR not. If you can, try dropping 2 lurks on the T's main ramp this can end games outright and is always an amazingly gosu compliment to a bigger drop inside the main (i do this and it makes me look sOooooooo sexy ) Or play it straight up, go about your normal tech (muta or lurker) and secure the extra resources after your tech gives you land advantage.

I have to go to class I can add more/finish this when I am home tonight.

Hope this helped: Ask any Q's and like in the other thread I will eventually get to them and answer as best as I can.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
January 28 2007 15:30 GMT
#2
When you dual evo, you get your upgrades alot slower than just matching caraspace so when toss comes out with the +1 zealots you'll need a lot more lings or sunkens. And then by the time your 1-1 is done protoss will have archons already and ready to expand. What is the benefit of dual evo before lair vs +1 Fe compared to regular mondragon style matching +1?
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
January 28 2007 15:32 GMT
#3
On January 29 2007 00:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
When you dual evo, you get your upgrades alot slower than just matching caraspace so when toss comes out with the +1 zealots you'll need a lot more lings or sunkens. And then by the time your 1-1 is done protoss will have archons already and ready to expand. What is the benefit of dual evo before lair vs +1 Fe compared to regular mondragon style matching +1?


What you just described almost never happens in all my ZvP's. So your timing is fictional o_O Rephrase, I wont answer a question that doesnt pertain to fact.
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-01-28 15:43:48
January 28 2007 15:40 GMT
#4
not as comprehensive as FA's megapost, but more concise and just as amazingly helpful since you go for the big 'small' tips that make huge differences (like checking for expoes during the initial +1 zealot attack), yet still give good cover of overall game management (basic counters for each likely situation)

thanks a lot! i'd like to get better at z and i found this very helpful
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
January 28 2007 15:53 GMT
#5
The ZvZ guide was cool.
Talk more about ZvZ...!!!
I wanna learn ZvZ.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
January 28 2007 15:58 GMT
#6
Hi inc, i am a bit of a zvz enthusiast; despite loving pvz and being a dedicated toss player
and i have a question for you, which i think is more appropriate in this thread rather than the other
iNc: i have a friend who doesnt like mutalisks, loves her hydralisks, lurkers, queens especially.. in zvz she gets horribly raped because she is extremely reluctant to learn to use mutalisks... what should i do? should i continue to encourage muta? or attempt some other form of zvz (allin lings,scourge/ling,hydra/scourge)? and any tips for any other possibilities in zvz that i could teach her?
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
BrutalMenace
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States1237 Posts
January 28 2007 16:00 GMT
#7
WOW THANKS FOR THE GUIDE INC! I will now own with my zerg matchups.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
January 28 2007 16:01 GMT
#8
On January 29 2007 00:58 Plexa wrote:
Hi inc, i am a bit of a zvz enthusiast; despite loving pvz and being a dedicated toss player
and i have a question for you, which i think is more appropriate in this thread rather than the other
iNc: i have a friend who doesnt like mutalisks, loves her hydralisks, lurkers, queens especially.. in zvz she gets horribly raped because she is extremely reluctant to learn to use mutalisks... what should i do? should i continue to encourage muta? or attempt some other form of zvz (allin lings,scourge/ling,hydra/scourge)? and any tips for any other possibilities in zvz that i could teach her?


ask her what her motive is. Does she want to be competetive? Hydras can be nice on certain maps and situations but overall they are by and large inferior. Tell her if she plays for fun to continue to try hydra/scourge with a queen or two. If she wants to get good tell her the way to go in zvz is muta. The mobility of the muta and the effectiveness of muta/ling or even a late lurker switch if you see heavy hydra is WAY stronger.
ToKoreaWithLove
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Norway10161 Posts
January 28 2007 16:02 GMT
#9
I'm not inc but maybe show her Muhwelli's old thread about alternative zvz based on hydralisk? It's in the recommended thread post.
ModeratorFather of bunnies
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
January 28 2007 16:08 GMT
#10
cheers inc, you confirmed what i was thinking

and thnx TKWL, i missed that thread when looking for info
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
FirstProbe
Profile Joined June 2004
1206 Posts
January 28 2007 16:25 GMT
#11
didn't she beat you with hydras plex?
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
January 28 2007 16:33 GMT
#12
best guide ive read in a long while, thanks.
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
araav
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Armenia1590 Posts
January 28 2007 16:56 GMT
#13
very nice iNc, but guide + a rep pack (where you lose too) would pwn much more!!!
thanks a lot <3
The flower that blooms in adversity is the most rare and beautiful of all.
Overlord
Profile Joined May 2003
Romania651 Posts
January 28 2007 16:59 GMT
#14
Here are my zvz related questions


The key here is that you will win with an overwhelming ling force not the expected Muta force.


How could I win with overwhelming ling force, if I'm the one who's making mutas, so I have less minerals left for lings than him.


If they go a hatch heavy bo I want to have an ultra fast lair so that they panic and go allin lings or spore to recover. If it becomes a ling buildup game I want 2-4 lings off ramp and ready to run in his base and pick off 1-3 drones. This style allows me to win many zvsz's.


What is the best way to survive to a 3 hatch ling timed attack with this style? You will obviously have much less lings, so build lots of sunkens?


I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group.


How do you do it, when the opponent clumps his mutas very closely (like in zvt harass mode)?


Long ZvZ's are tricky and hard. Really difficult to give advice, so ask specific Q's and I will give my best response.


1. About muta upgrades, most people agree that carapace is more usefull in muta vs muta battles, than attack. So, should one aim to get 0/3 asap? More specifically, after 0/1, should one get 1/1 or 0/2 (the price difference is pretty big - 100/100 and 225/225).

2. What is the best counter to a zerg, that does nothing but harasses? I mean, when he is in disadvantage, and had to build spores in his main, allowing me to expand, he just flies around with his smaller muta force, picking my lone overlords, or clumping them together as in zvt and flying in my main and killing drones, then running back to his spores.

3. How to counter suicidal attacks aiming to kill your spire? I mean they just come with all the mutas in your main, kill your spire and run back home to his spores.

4. What is the best way to counter a masshydra zerg? I can get extra expos, but what to do when the attack comes? Mass sunk? Armored lings? Burrow? What if some lurkers join the hydras?
God is dead - Nietzsche ; Nietzsche is dead - God
Overlord
Profile Joined May 2003
Romania651 Posts
January 28 2007 17:09 GMT
#15
And a bonus question, which interests me more from the P's point of view: Some years ago, when the z went muta, the answer was archon. But with today's muta microers an archon can do nothing, but wander in the mineral line, while he mutas pick all the probes one-by-one. What is the best defense as protoss vs muta harass? Cannon (how many)? Storm? Goons?

Thx
God is dead - Nietzsche ; Nietzsche is dead - God
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
January 28 2007 17:22 GMT
#16
On January 29 2007 01:59 Overlord wrote:
Here are my zvz related questions

Show nested quote +

The key here is that you will win with an overwhelming ling force not the expected Muta force.


How could I win with overwhelming ling force, if I'm the one who's making mutas, so I have less minerals left for lings than him.

Show nested quote +

If they go a hatch heavy bo I want to have an ultra fast lair so that they panic and go allin lings or spore to recover. If it becomes a ling buildup game I want 2-4 lings off ramp and ready to run in his base and pick off 1-3 drones. This style allows me to win many zvsz's.


What is the best way to survive to a 3 hatch ling timed attack with this style? You will obviously have much less lings, so build lots of sunkens?

Show nested quote +

I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group.


How do you do it, when the opponent clumps his mutas very closely (like in zvt harass mode)?

Show nested quote +

Long ZvZ's are tricky and hard. Really difficult to give advice, so ask specific Q's and I will give my best response.


1. About muta upgrades, most people agree that carapace is more usefull in muta vs muta battles, than attack. So, should one aim to get 0/3 asap? More specifically, after 0/1, should one get 1/1 or 0/2 (the price difference is pretty big - 100/100 and 225/225).

2. What is the best counter to a zerg, that does nothing but harasses? I mean, when he is in disadvantage, and had to build spores in his main, allowing me to expand, he just flies around with his smaller muta force, picking my lone overlords, or clumping them together as in zvt and flying in my main and killing drones, then running back to his spores.

3. How to counter suicidal attacks aiming to kill your spire? I mean they just come with all the mutas in your main, kill your spire and run back home to his spores.

4. What is the best way to counter a masshydra zerg? I can get extra expos, but what to do when the attack comes? Mass sunk? Armored lings? Burrow? What if some lurkers join the hydras?


1. the idea is that your surviving mutas add the bonus damage to the lings on the ground. Also, the mineral difference should be in your favor from 1+XXX amount of drones + 350 minerals in going towards an expansion as oppose to 2-3 more mutas and no drones down.

2. Sunken placement is key. Put it behind lair/pool and amongst drones for best defense. Also be smart, only mine with 1 drone on gas since you only need 1-2 mutas to win this game. Make as many sunk as necessary since its basically suvive until 1 muta is out.

3. If he does this in a muta battle he is fucked anyways. That close of a group is very bad in muta battle since every muta attack is guranteed to hit a muta. Even so, the scourge still work as they ignore "stacking."

armor:

1. 1-1 than 1-2 is always better.
2. Harrassing Z's tend to lose in that situation. Be smart and trap the muta force, hit em as he retreats with good micro and the games over.
3. If you can, attack his force and get your hits in. If you know its going to die start another one. If your mutas are off doing something now it comes to decision time, do you go for the kill as well or do you have to react back home? If you have supererior force it is more intelligent to just run him off and start a new one since losing your spire late game is remarkably NOT as devestating as you'd think.
4. Harrass until he spores his base / leaves hydra behind. While doing this take nat (if not already) +1 geyser and upgrade muta attack/armor. Macro as you harrass. Once the Z is big enough to leave (spore at home) you should have A. a better economy B. The ability to attack as he moves C. Upgrade lurkers and hold them at your sunken line. If he lurkers as well dont make ANY lings and go for sunks / lurkers of your own.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
January 28 2007 17:23 GMT
#17
On January 29 2007 02:09 Overlord wrote:
And a bonus question, which interests me more from the P's point of view: Some years ago, when the z went muta, the answer was archon. But with today's muta microers an archon can do nothing, but wander in the mineral line, while he mutas pick all the probes one-by-one. What is the best defense as protoss vs muta harass? Cannon (how many)? Storm? Goons?

Thx


Best thing a P can do vs muta harrass is combo of cannon / archon at mineral line or storm than sair. Pretty basic.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
January 28 2007 17:26 GMT
#18
On January 29 2007 01:56 araav wrote:
very nice iNc, but guide + a rep pack (where you lose too) would pwn much more!!!
thanks a lot <3


If zulu wants to help I can give him some reps on MSN and he can make a rep pack. Or someone else from TL.net who has my MSN.
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 28 2007 17:28 GMT
#19
I don't play Zerg, but Geoff hyeong... that was freaking sexy. s2s2s2s2
Do your best, God will do the rest.
Niji-z
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States208 Posts
January 28 2007 17:55 GMT
#20
Thanks so much for this. You're amazing. And I need it!
Rawr.
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