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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
ZergVsZerg: This is probably my best mu. The only Z's I fear here are Hullah and Mondragon as they seem to just always beat me.
I am a very timing oriented ZvZ user. Typically my bo's rotate around 9pool speed to 1 hatch muta, 12 gas, 11 pool 13 lair 13 hatch, 12pool expand (RH3 / Luna only usually) or simple 12 hatch in base 12 pool 11 gas and power ling/scourge. I find these bo's to be the most effective, rotate around with them so no z can pin you as a 1 trick pony.
What If they FE and I dont?: I go for several things at this point. Try and force them to make spores and defend up. If you can get them to commit alot of drones JUST to reacting to you you can bend this your favor. I 9pool alot, so if they somehow survive the rush they have to spore up which means you justmacro better and its gg. Lets assume that didnt happen. Lets assume you inbase hatched or even just 13 gas 12 pool or w/e. Try and get a faster lair. If you cannot get a ling powered force. If they make 2-4 sunkens or something use this to trip hatch at expo yourself. From here go scourge early with drones so that once expo is ready you can assume mining at same rate opponent is most likely doing.
How do I handle scourge heavy Z's?: Although rare, some Z's still go ling/scourge with trip hatch or even +1 ling. If thishappens it is important to mass up your mutas and NOT BE WASTEFUL! You must pick some scourge off. This means when mutas are initially made run them away from the main as it can be safe to assume they will come with early scourge to pick off mutas. Group mutas off center and hit scourge wherever you can. If they push for an expo this is when timing comes in. You need to gauge if you have enough muta to just clump and attack. If you feel like you could absorb the scourge do so, move in with muta first and have ling in the "waiting" absorb the scourge and then immediatly target the lings of the opponent. The key here is that you will win with an overwhelming ling force not the expected Muta force. This can be tricky but if you gauge it correctly you are fine. If this isnt an option just expand yourself and continue to mind scourge.
What do you do in ZvZ?: As I said I cycle the bo's previously mentioned. My mentality in ZvZ is to completely abuse the macro of the other user. If they expand I want to attack shortly after the hatch is finished with MORE lings and enough muta/scourge to eliminate/reduce his mutas to nothing. If they go a hatch heavy bo I want to have an ultra fast lair so that they panic and go allin lings or spore to recover. If it becomes a ling buildup game I want 2-4 lings off ramp and ready to run in his base and pick off 1-3 drones. This style allows me to win many zvsz's. Use scourge intelligently. I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group. This reduces most of the mutas to sub 20 health weaklings, easy picking for my mutas. This is probably the single most lethal trick I do ZvZ.
Long ZvZ's are tricky and hard. Really difficult to give advice, so ask specific Q's and I will give my best response. As for this, just try and secure an equal or +1 geyser advantage by sneaking an expo and having a few lings on the ramp. If the game permits, make 1-3 spore with a sunk so the expo is not a simply task for the opponent to wipe out. If opponent gets an expo on you DONT PANIC this can be the gift you wanted. Now he has to defend 2 fronts. Hit one with lings and send the mutas to the base for the spire. Continue to do this until the Z is scrap.
ZergVsProtoss: If not my best it is my second best. I tend to have problems vs P's that mass and roll like Fayth used to do and Oldy does now. That being said I still do pretty well vs P I am 6-1 vs By.Kiss aka Siz)O.ov for example, I know my stuff here and when im in shape I am pretty damn good at this.
My bo's tend to be 12 expand 11 pool. I go 3 hatch most of the time with variations from ling-to hive or ling-lurker or ling-muta. Can you see a trend? I like to make lings. I think making lings checks back the P's tendency to get cocky with things like power 2 gate to expo or earlier double FE or lazy FE period. If you can get lings into a P's base scouting on that level is invaluable as well as the potential to just end it. My mentality for ZvP is harrass harrass harrass and oops! I have 12 ultras that are now 5-3. I do this by granting myself a "contain" mindset or security bo. I get faster lurks so the P is contained. Or I get mutalisks so the P has to stay at home. Or I make so many lings that are 1-1 (dual evo) the P cannot do anything until storm/archon. By which time I now have hive and crack upgrades (sometimes drop).
Biggest tip in general?: To many Z's don't make spires for scourge vs P. P's love them a good reaver/storm/dt drop. The best way to ruin this party is have a continual 4-8 patrol of scourge at different spots. I always put them below an expo/main and sometimes at random points on the map. Cannot tell you how many times they have randomly ruined a P's day or come in handly as a means of stopping the drop.
What do we do vs Sair/Reaver?: Well if the map screams this like Archadia make your normal build only make 1 evo or maybe 2 and go hydra ups. Get ovie speed and get hydra speed/range before lurker ups. Go mass hydra and crack the front of the P when he over commits to taking out expos. If he is patient (pussy) take madd expos and eventually tech to devourers. I like to go drop myself as I am a spiteful bastard but it also makes the P commit to a solid home and when reaver/sair is the units of choice extra minerals is critical. Hold the P to only 2-3 expos (have to on Archadia) otherwise this cang et out of hand. Dont ignore the possibility of Carriers later either (upgrade armor for air and have scourge handy/defilers).
What about basic FE-+1 Speed Zeal?: DONT PANICK you dont need to grab 30 expansions and get a tech advantage. Watch Mondragon reps, he usually only matches their expo count until he gets a lurker / ling force. I do something similar. I grab a mineral only (they rarely check these) and dual evo with mass ling. This allows me to block them from equalling me in expos and it also perfectly counters the ever-so-predictable +1 zeal attack with my own 1-1 lings. I usually overrun the P's force and risk overrunning the P in general. From there I can macro (+1 geyser) and tech to ultras that are typically 4-2 vs the 2-0 P. Do not let that P grab another expo. When they are attacking with the +1 zeals they are typically expoing behind that attack, send a few lings to make them cancel the pylon/cannons so that you can deal with it without it being a bristle defense fortress.
ZergVsTerran: Probably my worst MU but I still consider myself very good here and I know alot in regard to this mu. I took 4th in TLT2 facing almost all T's and I train alot with players like testie(t) and idra(t) as well as koreans in G.s and rex[aegis]/dream.T)Zoker.
The style I like to play in ZvT is not surprisingly a very power oriented ZvT that features upgrade advantages, drop harrassment and sneaky expoing. I initially open up with 3 hatch macro builds on common maps like Luna, Rpoint, LT and such. I like to throw down 2 evos before my tech finishes ie: spire is done or lurker upgrade is complete. If I know the T to be low tank count user I go hydra/lurk if they are more of a tank user (almost all non kors are) it is smarter to be a melee styled Z here so you upgrade accordingly. I 80% of the time open with lurk oriented builds because I simply don't handle mutas well enough and find myself losing most games I open with mutas as oppose to me winning most of my lurker games. I like to get a strong drone count going as well as early ups and than push out with my lurker / ling force with the intention of containing / potential victory but also establishing 1-2 more gas expos with lurkers on ramp. From here, if I dont have a spire already I throw one of those down for two reasons. I will ALWAYS have scourge in key places for rine dropes IE above main or cliffs of nats and I want to be able to pick off that first sci vessel. Remember to make drones for the expos because shortly after those are finished the T will roll out with its first real force including a sci vessel. I do what I can to try and get that initial sci vessel by using lings and scourge to pick it off. This buys CRUCIAL time for you. If you cant it isnt the end of the world but it sure as heck is alot harder. By this time you should also have a 4th hatch and ample economy to being pumping massive amounts of lurker and 1/1 lings to deal with the T. I like this style because it is fairly easy to manage, allows for counters (a mainstay in my strategy) and it is easy to go straight into hive which is where the game really gets fun.
How do you handle early tank pushes? Like 1 base tank pressure? the way to deal with this is first know your opponent. For me I know that CDS)Predy, Satanik and others are fairly likely to do builds of this nature. Secondly, good scouting is key to all z mu's but especially zvt. Have that ovie on his exit point. Use those lings to check his rine count. Have that ovie see if early gas is being utilized. The list goes on. If you suspect a tank push is coming you should be going muta. I have won going lurker but I think the standard and safer response is clearly a muta opening. This is another time when Z's lose because of panicking. Dont just throw your mutas at the T. Get the force going and than pick what you can at the blockade, aim for scvs tanks and possibly lone rines. After you have forced the T to entrench go to the no-mans land with the mutas and hit reinforcements. Check the T main for vulnerability and continue to mass mutas / lings (make more sunks) until you have what you believe to be sufficient enough to take the T blockade out. itis important to remember that every free hit you give the T on your mutas ie with a turret or bunker could mean the game. be careful to only go after what you must. Once you break the T the game is clearly not over. remake the drones you lost and tech to lurker while expanding to another main or gas expo. The T will most likely look for an expo now so watch for an opening with your ling / mutas.
How do you handle rine drops? Most importantly as I mentioned before is to always have a spire->scourge. To many z's just dont make a spire because they aren't going mutas. Scourge are essential as a deterrent but also strategically for sci vessels later in the game. Another common z trend lately is to make a sunk at your main. This is done to protect the production buildings but also buy you time to get a ling force to the drop site and scourge the ship. This is brilliant because of its low cost but potential for insurmountable benefits. Scouting becomes a big part of this as well. to many z's clump ovies and stick them in the corner. Spread those out. I always surround my expos and main bases with ovie spotters looking for a drop or wraith. This should be done ALL GAME LONG. Something I do 100% of the time and equates to much of my success.
How do you handle mech T?: Mech T is rare but can be devestating. The thing to keep in mind is mech T is not made to be a early game strategy except for the initial vult attack (be it 1-2 or speed vults numbering 6-8). Abuse this, grab a mineral nat and perhaps another main or gas nat so that you can simply drown the T in zerg. Upgrades are critical. Dual evo here and upgrade hydra ups. My philosophy is to have a gaggle of mutas with armor upgrade and than an ocean of hydras / lurkers. I like to also have a strong countering army poised to go into the main of the T should they leave the base unaware. I like this because of the potential to gain advantages like free lurker shots but also it cripples the T economy and lazy t's will scraggle sci vessels which could end the game on its face there. While thats going on macro up out of your mass economy and simply hit the back of the T force which should be either unsieged tanks or vulnerable gols. Countering mech T is more of a mindset, Z's lose vs this because we get entrenched in habits and ideals that simply dont apply to this mu as much.
How do you handle SKTerran?: Hydra/Lurk imo is the best. Most important thing to ALWAYS remember is MIND THE SCI VESSELS. be it scourge or simply hitting them with hydras DO NOT let the ball get rolling. If you allow the T to sit on 10 sci vessels you simply wont win unless some clueless error should emerge on the T's behalf. Upgrades are key here as T's who skterran almost always dual ebay. The other thing to keep in mind is to be hell-bent on defending gas expos. You can have all the minerals in the world but unless you can manage your gas to continue to make scourge/lurker and hydra you wont do squat. Lurker ramps, sunken mineral lines and have nydus in late game. Do it all. Also, countering vs a SKTerran is not recommended. Part of the magic of SKTerran is the massive marine force that always seems to exist. Looking for a counter wont do much, mind the forces out in the field and always hit those sci vessels where you can.
General tips vs FE T's?: This right now is the most common trend amongst T's. They will almost always FE. One of my recent responses has been Bo's that abuse this trend. Kill the early scv scout. Upgrade ling speed before lair and simply make 20 lings or so (should finish bout than) and (if doable) run over the un-medded rine force stoppin the expo or winning the game. While doing this tech to lurker/muta for the end game.
In general though, all-in builds arent great to rely on so some thoughts on this: Try incorporating a expo sneak. You would be surprised to know how many T's never scout other expos in the early game. Set up another geyser and 2 lurk the ramp or make sunks. Now you are ahead and sufficiently so. If they are a bit of a scouter, try sneaking a mineral only nat. T'S NEVER CHECK FOR THESE and it can be a huge bonus. Once I establish this I am able to afford 1-3 more hatcheries which is pivotal for mass ling / lurker style. Another great response is drop. I sometimes start my slow drop upgrade right when the lair finishes (even before I start my Lurk upgrade) this allows for the potential lurk drop on mineral lines or wait for speed and doom drop the T as they leave OR not. If you can, try dropping 2 lurks on the T's main ramp this can end games outright and is always an amazingly gosu compliment to a bigger drop inside the main (i do this and it makes me look sOooooooo sexy ) Or play it straight up, go about your normal tech (muta or lurker) and secure the extra resources after your tech gives you land advantage.
I have to go to class I can add more/finish this when I am home tonight.
Hope this helped: Ask any Q's and like in the other thread I will eventually get to them and answer as best as I can.
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When you dual evo, you get your upgrades alot slower than just matching caraspace so when toss comes out with the +1 zealots you'll need a lot more lings or sunkens. And then by the time your 1-1 is done protoss will have archons already and ready to expand. What is the benefit of dual evo before lair vs +1 Fe compared to regular mondragon style matching +1?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:30 zulu_nation8 wrote: When you dual evo, you get your upgrades alot slower than just matching caraspace so when toss comes out with the +1 zealots you'll need a lot more lings or sunkens. And then by the time your 1-1 is done protoss will have archons already and ready to expand. What is the benefit of dual evo before lair vs +1 Fe compared to regular mondragon style matching +1?
What you just described almost never happens in all my ZvP's. So your timing is fictional o_O Rephrase, I wont answer a question that doesnt pertain to fact.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
not as comprehensive as FA's megapost, but more concise and just as amazingly helpful since you go for the big 'small' tips that make huge differences (like checking for expoes during the initial +1 zealot attack), yet still give good cover of overall game management (basic counters for each likely situation)
thanks a lot! i'd like to get better at z and i found this very helpful
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The ZvZ guide was cool. Talk more about ZvZ...!!! I wanna learn ZvZ.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Hi inc, i am a bit of a zvz enthusiast; despite loving pvz and being a dedicated toss player and i have a question for you, which i think is more appropriate in this thread rather than the other iNc: i have a friend who doesnt like mutalisks, loves her hydralisks, lurkers, queens especially.. in zvz she gets horribly raped because she is extremely reluctant to learn to use mutalisks... what should i do? should i continue to encourage muta? or attempt some other form of zvz (allin lings,scourge/ling,hydra/scourge)? and any tips for any other possibilities in zvz that i could teach her?
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WOW THANKS FOR THE GUIDE INC! I will now own with my zerg matchups.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 00:58 Plexa wrote: Hi inc, i am a bit of a zvz enthusiast; despite loving pvz and being a dedicated toss player and i have a question for you, which i think is more appropriate in this thread rather than the other iNc: i have a friend who doesnt like mutalisks, loves her hydralisks, lurkers, queens especially.. in zvz she gets horribly raped because she is extremely reluctant to learn to use mutalisks... what should i do? should i continue to encourage muta? or attempt some other form of zvz (allin lings,scourge/ling,hydra/scourge)? and any tips for any other possibilities in zvz that i could teach her?
ask her what her motive is. Does she want to be competetive? Hydras can be nice on certain maps and situations but overall they are by and large inferior. Tell her if she plays for fun to continue to try hydra/scourge with a queen or two. If she wants to get good tell her the way to go in zvz is muta. The mobility of the muta and the effectiveness of muta/ling or even a late lurker switch if you see heavy hydra is WAY stronger.
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Norway10161 Posts
I'm not inc but maybe show her Muhwelli's old thread about alternative zvz based on hydralisk? It's in the recommended thread post.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
cheers inc, you confirmed what i was thinking
and thnx TKWL, i missed that thread when looking for info
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didn't she beat you with hydras plex?
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United States7166 Posts
best guide ive read in a long while, thanks.
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very nice iNc, but guide + a rep pack (where you lose too) would pwn much more!!! thanks a lot <3
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Here are my zvz related questions
The key here is that you will win with an overwhelming ling force not the expected Muta force.
How could I win with overwhelming ling force, if I'm the one who's making mutas, so I have less minerals left for lings than him.
If they go a hatch heavy bo I want to have an ultra fast lair so that they panic and go allin lings or spore to recover. If it becomes a ling buildup game I want 2-4 lings off ramp and ready to run in his base and pick off 1-3 drones. This style allows me to win many zvsz's.
What is the best way to survive to a 3 hatch ling timed attack with this style? You will obviously have much less lings, so build lots of sunkens?
I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group.
How do you do it, when the opponent clumps his mutas very closely (like in zvt harass mode)?
Long ZvZ's are tricky and hard. Really difficult to give advice, so ask specific Q's and I will give my best response.
1. About muta upgrades, most people agree that carapace is more usefull in muta vs muta battles, than attack. So, should one aim to get 0/3 asap? More specifically, after 0/1, should one get 1/1 or 0/2 (the price difference is pretty big - 100/100 and 225/225).
2. What is the best counter to a zerg, that does nothing but harasses? I mean, when he is in disadvantage, and had to build spores in his main, allowing me to expand, he just flies around with his smaller muta force, picking my lone overlords, or clumping them together as in zvt and flying in my main and killing drones, then running back to his spores.
3. How to counter suicidal attacks aiming to kill your spire? I mean they just come with all the mutas in your main, kill your spire and run back home to his spores.
4. What is the best way to counter a masshydra zerg? I can get extra expos, but what to do when the attack comes? Mass sunk? Armored lings? Burrow? What if some lurkers join the hydras?
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And a bonus question, which interests me more from the P's point of view: Some years ago, when the z went muta, the answer was archon. But with today's muta microers an archon can do nothing, but wander in the mineral line, while he mutas pick all the probes one-by-one. What is the best defense as protoss vs muta harass? Cannon (how many)? Storm? Goons?
Thx
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 01:59 Overlord wrote:Here are my zvz related questions Show nested quote + The key here is that you will win with an overwhelming ling force not the expected Muta force.
How could I win with overwhelming ling force, if I'm the one who's making mutas, so I have less minerals left for lings than him. Show nested quote + If they go a hatch heavy bo I want to have an ultra fast lair so that they panic and go allin lings or spore to recover. If it becomes a ling buildup game I want 2-4 lings off ramp and ready to run in his base and pick off 1-3 drones. This style allows me to win many zvsz's.
What is the best way to survive to a 3 hatch ling timed attack with this style? You will obviously have much less lings, so build lots of sunkens? Show nested quote + I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group.
How do you do it, when the opponent clumps his mutas very closely (like in zvt harass mode)? Show nested quote + Long ZvZ's are tricky and hard. Really difficult to give advice, so ask specific Q's and I will give my best response.
1. About muta upgrades, most people agree that carapace is more usefull in muta vs muta battles, than attack. So, should one aim to get 0/3 asap? More specifically, after 0/1, should one get 1/1 or 0/2 (the price difference is pretty big - 100/100 and 225/225). 2. What is the best counter to a zerg, that does nothing but harasses? I mean, when he is in disadvantage, and had to build spores in his main, allowing me to expand, he just flies around with his smaller muta force, picking my lone overlords, or clumping them together as in zvt and flying in my main and killing drones, then running back to his spores. 3. How to counter suicidal attacks aiming to kill your spire? I mean they just come with all the mutas in your main, kill your spire and run back home to his spores. 4. What is the best way to counter a masshydra zerg? I can get extra expos, but what to do when the attack comes? Mass sunk? Armored lings? Burrow? What if some lurkers join the hydras?
1. the idea is that your surviving mutas add the bonus damage to the lings on the ground. Also, the mineral difference should be in your favor from 1+XXX amount of drones + 350 minerals in going towards an expansion as oppose to 2-3 more mutas and no drones down.
2. Sunken placement is key. Put it behind lair/pool and amongst drones for best defense. Also be smart, only mine with 1 drone on gas since you only need 1-2 mutas to win this game. Make as many sunk as necessary since its basically suvive until 1 muta is out.
3. If he does this in a muta battle he is fucked anyways. That close of a group is very bad in muta battle since every muta attack is guranteed to hit a muta. Even so, the scourge still work as they ignore "stacking."
armor:
1. 1-1 than 1-2 is always better. 2. Harrassing Z's tend to lose in that situation. Be smart and trap the muta force, hit em as he retreats with good micro and the games over. 3. If you can, attack his force and get your hits in. If you know its going to die start another one. If your mutas are off doing something now it comes to decision time, do you go for the kill as well or do you have to react back home? If you have supererior force it is more intelligent to just run him off and start a new one since losing your spire late game is remarkably NOT as devestating as you'd think. 4. Harrass until he spores his base / leaves hydra behind. While doing this take nat (if not already) +1 geyser and upgrade muta attack/armor. Macro as you harrass. Once the Z is big enough to leave (spore at home) you should have A. a better economy B. The ability to attack as he moves C. Upgrade lurkers and hold them at your sunken line. If he lurkers as well dont make ANY lings and go for sunks / lurkers of your own.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 02:09 Overlord wrote: And a bonus question, which interests me more from the P's point of view: Some years ago, when the z went muta, the answer was archon. But with today's muta microers an archon can do nothing, but wander in the mineral line, while he mutas pick all the probes one-by-one. What is the best defense as protoss vs muta harass? Cannon (how many)? Storm? Goons?
Thx
Best thing a P can do vs muta harrass is combo of cannon / archon at mineral line or storm than sair. Pretty basic.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 01:56 araav wrote:very nice iNc, but guide + a rep pack (where you lose too ) would pwn much more!!! thanks a lot <3
If zulu wants to help I can give him some reps on MSN and he can make a rep pack. Or someone else from TL.net who has my MSN.
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United States5262 Posts
I don't play Zerg, but Geoff hyeong... that was freaking sexy. s2s2s2s2
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Thanks so much for this. You're amazing. And I need it!
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Pretty satisifying answers, thank you. Just one aspect remained unclear:
3. If he does this in a muta battle he is fucked anyways. That close of a group is very bad in muta battle since every muta attack is guranteed to hit a muta. Even so, the scourge still work as they ignore "stacking."
It seems it's not very clear to me, how does that "bouncing" attack of the mutas work. I always thought, that it bounces to any random target within a certain range. Thus, if his muta clump is close enough to his newly built hatch/overlords/lings they should have the same probability to be hit, as the mutas. What am I missing?
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Good job Geoff, but
"1. 1-1 than 1-2 is always better."
If u meant 1-1 than 0-2, I cannot fuckin agree. Of course, 1-1 is faster than 0-2, but if you are still alive in this stage of the game you can always afford making +2 armor. It's better to camp a bit to this 0-2. When there is a fight between 2,5 vs 2,5 groups of muta, 0-2 will always win. Simple as that!
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
geoff rox
are you trying to save the strat forum all by yourself?
keep at it friend <3<3
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nice tips! i have a question about zvz though: whenever i play 12pool 11hatch at nat (on luna for example) i lose. i just dont understand how to make 6 lings with ur initial 3 larva to survive potential rushes, tech to lair/spire as fast as possible and build enough defense at ur expo to survive ling attacks. should u maynard drones to ur expo in this situation? should u build like 1 sunk and many lings or more like many sunks and few lings? my sunkens tend to get torn apart since u cant build them in the mineral line or spots like that without risking him to run through into your main (on most maps). basically i never know if i should whore drones and sunk or build more lings and no drones and so on.... could u explain that strat to me? ^^
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On January 29 2007 03:03 turretlame wrote: Good job Geoff, but
"1. 1-1 than 1-2 is always better."
If u meant 1-1 than 0-2, I cannot fuckin agree. Of course, 1-1 is faster than 0-2, but if you are still alive in this stage of the game you can always afford making +2 armor. It's better to camp a bit to this 0-2. When there is a fight between 2,5 vs 2,5 groups of muta, 0-2 will always win. Simple as that!
UNLESS,
you play vs daze muta micro loalozl
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I don't play much zerg, but I do play ZvT instead of TvT, and look forward to the ZvT part of your guide! Teach us expo timing and how to beat that goddamn ball!
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
my shitty pvz is about to get shittier
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wow, this is a realy nice thread, alot of people will be thankful of the efort put in it, too bad im a terran myself , i wish more good players would do this, inc <3
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On January 29 2007 03:03 turretlame wrote: Good job Geoff, but
"1. 1-1 than 1-2 is always better."
If u meant 1-1 than 0-2, I cannot fuckin agree. Of course, 1-1 is faster than 0-2, but if you are still alive in this stage of the game you can always afford making +2 armor. It's better to camp a bit to this 0-2. When there is a fight between 2,5 vs 2,5 groups of muta, 0-2 will always win. Simple as that!
if YOU meant 0-2 is better than 1-1 youre wrong in most cases.
the reason 0-1 is so much better than 1-0 is, that the armor upgrade absorbs 3 damage of the 9-3-1 muta attack, while u only gain 1/0,333/0,111 with 1-0. the extra cost of armor is only 50/50, so u trade half of a mutalisk for a "firepower improvement" of 13.6 % ( 13 / 11.44 damage putput per muta) => the critial mass of mutas is around 10 to make it effective (to negate the extra hp/firepower the extra 0.5 muta provides, only roughly calculated)
if u both already are 0-1, the upgrade to 0-2 against 1-1 only gives u extra 7.2 % firepower for an extra cost of 125/125 => u need more than 30 mutas to compensate the extra 1.25 mutas the 1-1 zerg has
so, if the muta numbers go HUGE, 0-2 beats 1-1, but this a) rarely happens in zvz and b) if it happens, most of the time there are factors like devourer or defiler who totally fuck up the calculation...
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 03:01 Overlord wrote:Pretty satisifying answers, thank you. Just one aspect remained unclear: Show nested quote + 3. If he does this in a muta battle he is fucked anyways. That close of a group is very bad in muta battle since every muta attack is guranteed to hit a muta. Even so, the scourge still work as they ignore "stacking."
It seems it's not very clear to me, how does that "bouncing" attack of the mutas work. I always thought, that it bounces to any random target within a certain range. Thus, if his muta clump is close enough to his newly built hatch/overlords/lings they should have the same probability to be hit, as the mutas. What am I missing?
Well my thoughts on this arent an exact science. I think the advantage is that when you DONT closely clump them there is a GREATER chance that the bounce attack will go to a non muta. Or that the natural seperation of the mutas will give better angles and less bounce attack. If they are close together there is a BETTER chance of getting the bounce attack within the cluster AND the opponent can spread a little more getting attacks at all angles which seems to be important in muta battles.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 04:17 diehilde wrote: nice tips! i have a question about zvz though: whenever i play 12pool 11hatch at nat (on luna for example) i lose. i just dont understand how to make 6 lings with ur initial 3 larva to survive potential rushes, tech to lair/spire as fast as possible and build enough defense at ur expo to survive ling attacks. should u maynard drones to ur expo in this situation? should u build like 1 sunk and many lings or more like many sunks and few lings? my sunkens tend to get torn apart since u cant build them in the mineral line or spots like that without risking him to run through into your main (on most maps). basically i never know if i should whore drones and sunk or build more lings and no drones and so on.... could u explain that strat to me? ^^
First of all 12 pool 11 hatch is very bad on luna. I think it is only viable on maps like perhaps nost or rh3. Its bad on luna because most other Z's are going a safer in base hatch or faster lair. This means they dictate everything (power ling = you make sunks or faster lair = you make spore). If you are going to expand on Luna or maps like Luna do a 12 hatch 11 pool and 12 gas build. This is timed better vs their 12pool builds or their own 12 hatch(in or out). If they 9 you are fucked. Thats why I 9 or 12 drone scout (forgot to mention, will add to the list). This way if you are lucky you can catch the bo before it hurts yeah. If you see lings leaving and you are like half way done with pool cancel the damn hatch go in base make a sunk or 2 and pray for an economic advantage.
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Canada9720 Posts
I don't play zerg, but I enjoyed reading both this thread and the othe on zerg mechanics. Cheers, keept it up
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Very nice Geoff - get in touch with me soon! :D
~LoA
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
1. 1-1 than 1-2 is always better.
I think you mean 1-1 is better than 0-2
Order goes armor->attack->armor->attack->devourersfuckeverythingupsoitdoesn'tmatteranymore
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nice, and overlord had some nice questions, here are a few of mine
during zvz when do you think the best time to start your carapace upgrade is, a little while after expo?
during zvz what information should you use to decide when you make spore colonys, by the number of muta he is producing? and how many should you make? I know its situational pertaining to how many drones/how late in the game.
when you are behind in zvz is it better to go for an allin approach and hope to catch them being greedy or should you try to catch up by launching guirella attacks and hoping to inflict enoough damage to come back?
in zvp, when the toss fe's and you decide to 3 hat lurker contain with the 3rd hat going to seperate expo, when is it the safest time to whore drones if they are going zeal/archon/temp?
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do zergs ever lay dual spire to upgrade faster? just wondering..
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mK no they dont, unless its bgh ;;
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awesome guide. thanks for the time incontrol.
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iNc, what about sending your replays just via yousendit?
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On January 29 2007 10:05 mK.)) wrote: do zergs ever lay dual spire to upgrade faster? just wondering..
When dicking around with big lead vs. reaver/sair?
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United States20661 Posts
On January 29 2007 10:05 mK.)) wrote: do zergs ever lay dual spire to upgrade faster? just wondering..
I haven't seen it in pro game. I've seen dual ultra den though. And dual defiler.
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thedeadhaji
39472 Posts
I "think" ive seen dual spire before... but I doubt it was on a straightforward map.
edit: I actually seem to remember a greater spire + spire game on one of the first games on desert fox, i think zvp
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On January 29 2007 11:13 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 10:05 mK.)) wrote: do zergs ever lay dual spire to upgrade faster? just wondering.. I haven't seen it in pro game. I've seen dual ultra den though. And dual defiler. generally when you're going ultra you have a reasonable economy and the armor/speed ups are so helpful that its economically worthwhile to get both right away. zvz wasting another 200/150 (or whatever a spire is) is suicidal.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
the real question is
does anyone else go sextuple archives and quintuple beacon?
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can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta?
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zvz if they go FE -> 4hatch hydra with ups and you weren't able to do anything with muta lead and can't break the nat with lings what should you do? I mean I spose you could avoid the situation, but if you're in it it's nice to know what to do Continueing muta seems to be suicide against uped hydras, lings are fairly uselss if you can't get a big lead (hard if they FEd and you didn't).
zvz is 3hatch 3rd at expo a good strat? I lost in longinus one time with a 4hatch 2base against 2hatch 1 base ><
zvp what is it you look for when scouting to determine whether to try a lurk contain or go muta? pvz I often lose to a simple mass ling, what should you look for in p to see if you can run them over with straight ling? Is Sauronzerg a good option, and again, what should you see that makes you do it? From your experience is 1base p harder/easier to fight than FE p? And what is a better FE counter, a lurk contain with 2nd expo? lurk contain with just 2base? Something else? I generally have more luck with mutas than lurks, but most pros it seems get lurks not muta. Is a defiler/crax up rush plausible/decent? I like getting gas when I get a 3rd hatch (usually around 18 or so), if I lair first I like making queens nest as soon as lair is done then going hive for fast defilers and crax ups while getting atleast double ups for lings and trying a mass ling, idk how realistic a strat like that is; sometimes it works, but mostly it just delays a loss; if it is initially successfull at stopping p expoing/preventing my doom how should I follow it up?
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On January 29 2007 13:04 il0seonpurpose wrote: can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta? In ZvZ, the early mobility is very important. Because mutas can run around picking off drones and lone hydras/lords/lings in the early- to mid-game, you usually are forced to go mutas yourself so you don't get contained in your base by his harassment. The hydras are cost-wise more efficient, but the mobility of mutas negates their power.
Late game, though, you both have mutas and the mobility is less of a factor. Now is the time to do your tech switch. Just like with any ranged units (m/m, goons, tanks, gols, etc.), hydras get more effective with bigger numbers. Couple that with the late game econ (you can now afford to get double upgrades on hydras WHILE pumping), and you get a very feasible tech switch. Lategame, hydras also tend to couple very well with hive tech in zvz. Hydra/Devourer, Hydra/Defiler, and Hydra/Queen are all very powerful against muta, and the latter two are very effective against hydras as well.
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Also, in ZvP, the advantage to going all ling is the gas you accumulate. Because you're not spending money on an early lair (or anything else but ling speed), you can afford to drop two evo chambers and get simultaneous attack and armor upgrades, which, in small numbers, is not so effective, but in larger numbers, like the kind you'll be able to afford with nothing but lings, drones, overlords, and hatches at expansions (while you tech to hive and continue upgrades), you can wipe out those "breakout" strike forces that tend to consist of one archon and a group of +1 speedzeals pretty easily.
The great thing about mass ling is that you get your 3-3, cracklings, and a large group of ultralisks (and all the benefits of having a hive) when the protoss is expecting your late-midgame. So, by skipping that early-midgame and late-midgame tech (lair tech), you save gas for a massive ultra/ling force, which is the strategy you aim for anyway.
This is counter-intuitive, because most of zerg's strength lies in their midgame tech and ability to switch between them.
The downside is that you have to watch out for corsairs and DTs. If it catches you off guard, you can lose a lot of units and maybe an expo or two, so be very careful and make sure you drop a spire (for scourge) and upgrade lord speed if you feel that he might make dt/sair. You can even switch over to hydra/ling and maybe drop a third evo chamber if you have secured your second expansion. This is one of the matchups where hydralisks can shine, especially with 2-2 lings (or whatever you have). Late game... well, you've still got most of that gas, and ultras are always a good choice.
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On January 29 2007 11:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: the real question is
does anyone else go sextuple archives and quintuple beacon?
lol sex
this brings so much life back into the strategy forum you should get like some kind of cool award or something
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 13:04 il0seonpurpose wrote: can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta?
Sure late game you can switch. I prefer to just go hive however and plague their mutas. Hydra in ZvZ just simply is not something to "work into" or switch to. There is no net benefit to doing it. Why have pabs blue ribbon when you could have a micro ale?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 13:52 Nightmarjoo wrote:zvz if they go FE -> 4hatch hydra with ups and you weren't able to do anything with muta lead and can't break the nat with lings what should you do? I mean I spose you could avoid the situation, but if you're in it it's nice to know what to do Continueing muta seems to be suicide against uped hydras, lings are fairly uselss if you can't get a big lead (hard if they FEd and you didn't). zvz is 3hatch 3rd at expo a good strat? I lost in longinus one time with a 4hatch 2base against 2hatch 1 base >< zvp what is it you look for when scouting to determine whether to try a lurk contain or go muta? pvz I often lose to a simple mass ling, what should you look for in p to see if you can run them over with straight ling? Is Sauronzerg a good option, and again, what should you see that makes you do it? From your experience is 1base p harder/easier to fight than FE p? And what is a better FE counter, a lurk contain with 2nd expo? lurk contain with just 2base? Something else? I generally have more luck with mutas than lurks, but most pros it seems get lurks not muta. Is a defiler/crax up rush plausible/decent? I like getting gas when I get a 3rd hatch (usually around 18 or so), if I lair first I like making queens nest as soon as lair is done then going hive for fast defilers and crax ups while getting atleast double ups for lings and trying a mass ling, idk how realistic a strat like that is; sometimes it works, but mostly it just delays a loss; if it is initially successfull at stopping p expoing/preventing my doom how should I follow it up?
1. Asking me questions that are like "So im way behind and going to lose how do i XXX" wont get a constructive answer. If you are far behind the best thing to do is hope and pray for an opening like them leaving the base and you countering. Or perhaps an ambush of sorts. You need to do something to get the edge back or at least make the game fair. This is fairly common sense though and applies to any BW situation.
2. I look for a tech. Faster robo = reaver or drop perhaps. Seeing a gate means sair to dt or such. Scouting is typically to check for a proxy 1st, than for what kind of rush / FE they are doing. Than its for tech typically in that order. Running over with straight ling is easy, if you see a 1 gate or perhaps a 1 cannon gate expo build it is fairly simple to gauge the worth of trying a run over.
3. Both 1 gate and FE can equally be hard. Non FE is in a sense more difficult because if they are able to block your scouting the game becomes a guessing game for the zerg which can lead to a loss. FE is slightly more predictable and with lots of practice can become a timed affair. Vs FE any kind of rush is going to be risky. Rushes by nature are risky so ask yourself if you like to play that way. If you can play straight up or have an edge in BO / timing just go with that, why risk it?
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wait for scourge, you don't clone but rather press A? Also are the scourge relatively stacked when you do this?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 15:38 tKd_ wrote: wait for scourge, you don't clone but rather press A? Also are the scourge relatively stacked when you do this?
Read the part about spacing.
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Good Stuff, thank you very much Geoff.
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how do you play your ling to hive build?
i'm just curious as i need new builds and stuff
also thank you for the zvz guide, it actually has made zvz interesting for me, and i have fun playing it ( helpful seeing as the excess of zergs i seem to encounter on abyss server )
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On January 29 2007 15:19 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 13:04 il0seonpurpose wrote: can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta? Sure late game you can switch. I prefer to just go hive however and plague their mutas. Hydra in ZvZ just simply is not something to "work into" or switch to. There is no net benefit to doing it. Why have pabs blue ribbon when you could have a micro ale? cause you can get a 24 pack of PBR for near the price of a 6 pack of micro ale
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I read one of Mondragon's guides a while ago, and he said he usually goes 9 hatch expo, 9 pool, 9 ovie. I've tried this and i've also done what you say you usually do which is the common 12 hatch expo, 11 pool. I guess that 9 hatch is better if you think they will go high zlot pressure/rush. If you don't think they are going to rush shouldyou always go 12 hatch? I guess that 9 hatch gets you your expo mining faster, but you get drones slower so what would you suggest betweenn the two, and in what situation.
-talking about ZvP as i'm sure you can tell
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I thought the build mondragon suggested was 9hatch 9lord 9pool then drone to 11.
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thanks control O_O your a god
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United States20661 Posts
Yeah Mondi said 9h9o9s then 11drones.
I like 10h10o10s, fun to do double extractor trick.
Inc: this may seem like a ridiculous question, but vs double or triple gate zealot rush, how many sunken do you make? do you make more or less based on number of probes brought along, and if so, how many? I always screw up my judgment vs 2gate rush and lose more drones than I should.
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Sorry if this has been answered already but, I always lose when the protoss goes agressive 2 gate when I do 12 hatch. I don't know why? Is it my speed or my micro?
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On January 30 2007 00:42 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Sorry if this has been answered already but, I always lose when the protoss goes agressive 2 gate when I do 12 hatch. I don't know why? Is it my speed or my micro?
A committed 2 gate rush is very hard to stop, even for top players like midian or mondi. In replays you will often see these players 12 hatch in base, then 3hat at expo after lings or go 9 hat so that sunks are up in time. otherwise the best thing to do if you 12 hatted is to drop 2 sunks as soon as the hat pops. *if* you can get them up that should make you completely secure as long as you are aware of a possible run past up the ramp and are ready to block with lings.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 00:42 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Sorry if this has been answered already but, I always lose when the protoss goes agressive 2 gate when I do 12 hatch. I don't know why? Is it my speed or my micro?
No to what Sliver said basically. If we are talking Luna or RH3 or Gaia or something (basic) 12 hatch is fine vs a 9/10 or 10/11 gate rush. This would be why you should 9 or 12 drone scout. So you can see this and know to save 3 larvae and throw down 1 maybe 2 sunks asap. I counter this by bringing 3-5 drones to my nat hatch before it finishes to try and kill his probe scout but also so that I can throw down the sunks OR use the drones in conjunction with my lings to thwart the zealots. This part of the game is crucial. Remember you DONT HAVE TO ENGAGE the zealots right away. If you have 6 lings vs his 3 zealots wait for that extra 4. But more importantly, hit him when he starts attacking the sunken, when he focuses on the lings again retreat a little and than continue to this cylce. For the extremely careful / gosu micro'rs: pull a ling back after it has been hit 2 times by a zealot, rotate them this way so that you can essentially micro your lings better. most z's are lazy in this and suffer for it. After you hold this off check with ovie (by this time it should be there) for a tech or FE or power. If they are mass zealoting with 2 or 3 gates than throw down another sunk or two, make a few drones but continue to make lings. I also research speed lings at this time so i can potentially overrun or even small ling counter to cause havoc in the base. If they tech make a spore OR a hydra den (for inevitable sair) and start macroing. If they FE macro hard core by droning and adding a 3rd hatch and once you get your economy going push to a 2nd nat and go from there.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 23:26 Last Romantic wrote: Yeah Mondi said 9h9o9s then 11drones.
I like 10h10o10s, fun to do double extractor trick.
Inc: this may seem like a ridiculous question, but vs double or triple gate zealot rush, how many sunken do you make? do you make more or less based on number of probes brought along, and if so, how many? I always screw up my judgment vs 2gate rush and lose more drones than I should.
No its ok, alot of Z's lose to this, not a bad Q. If they are going some kind of mass zealot build I think you should make maybe 3 - 4(most) sunkens but put evos or a hatch in front. Positioning is the more important factor here. This way his zealots have to move around constructs but also your ling force can now get a good angle on his zealots and no matter how many he has it becomes a funnel of death for the P. This would also be a good place to take 6-8 speed lings and hide them outside the p base. When he goes to run you over run the lings in and hit the gate pylon first, than go for tech buildings or possibly the probes. OR for the really sexy, hit the nexus (this is also better for smashing the probes he sends to stop the lings as they dont have minerals to stack on).
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 20:40 Jonoman92 wrote: I read one of Mondragon's guides a while ago, and he said he usually goes 9 hatch expo, 9 pool, 9 ovie. I've tried this and i've also done what you say you usually do which is the common 12 hatch expo, 11 pool. I guess that 9 hatch is better if you think they will go high zlot pressure/rush. If you don't think they are going to rush shouldyou always go 12 hatch? I guess that 9 hatch gets you your expo mining faster, but you get drones slower so what would you suggest betweenn the two, and in what situation.
-talking about ZvP as i'm sure you can tell
9hatch is only really good on amap where 2 gate is particularly strong like Rpoint or perhaps Gaia. 12 hatch is always preferable as it is economically stronger and more flexible. Also, if they 9/10 gate or love to bring 2-3 probes with the rush and you KNOW THIS (they are a common foe or something) than 9hatch is better because your sunk / lings will be done as the first zealot gets there.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 18:54 Yogurt wrote: how do you play your ling to hive build?
i'm just curious as i need new builds and stuff
also thank you for the zvz guide, it actually has made zvz interesting for me, and i have fun playing it ( helpful seeing as the excess of zergs i seem to encounter on abyss server )
I think I explain my ling to hive strategy in the Z guide. Look there.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
***Edited in ZergvsTerran portion to beginning of thread***
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during zvz when do you think the best time to start your carapace upgrade is, a little while after expo?
during zvz what information should you use to decide when you make spore colonys, by the number of muta he is producing? and how many should you make? I know its situational pertaining to how many drones/how late in the game.
when you are behind in zvz is it better to go for an allin approach and hope to catch them being greedy or should you try to catch up by launching guirella attacks and hoping to inflict enoough damage to come back?
in zvp, when the toss fe's and you decide to 3 hat lurker contain with the 3rd hat going to seperate expo, when is it the safest time to whore drones if they are going zeal/archon/temp?
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eh this might be beginner stuff but I need to know - drop terrans always give me problems
When the terran goes quick drop, what are some tell tale signs and what should you do?
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I don't have anything to contribute except a thank you. I think it's important that the community thank individuals who post things like this. So,
Thank you!
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On January 29 2007 19:39 Ghin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 15:19 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On January 29 2007 13:04 il0seonpurpose wrote: can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta? Sure late game you can switch. I prefer to just go hive however and plague their mutas. Hydra in ZvZ just simply is not something to "work into" or switch to. There is no net benefit to doing it. Why have pabs blue ribbon when you could have a micro ale? cause you can get a 24 pack of PBR for near the price of a 6 pack of micro ale Quoted for emphasis .
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On January 30 2007 00:42 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Sorry if this has been answered already but, I always lose when the protoss goes agressive 2 gate when I do 12 hatch. I don't know why? Is it my speed or my micro? What part do you lose on? The rush itself or the game after the rush? If it's the rush itself, you're losing because of speed - split better, send drones so that they get to the expo and make the pool at 300 and 200, respectively, and maybe don't scout until AFTER your pool. If it's the game after the rush, it's your micro - don't lose drones, kill his probe asap, don't take too many drones off of mins, and try to keep your sunken alive.
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nice contribution to the community ;]
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On January 29 2007 02:55 Niji-z wrote: I always make 8-12 for the first main Muta engagement and I have them move directly INTO the enemy muta clump and hit "A" as they are within the group. This reduces most of the mutas to sub 20 health weaklings, easy picking for my mutas.!
Can you give us more details on this?
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1) Group scourge 2) Hotkey 3) Engage muta battle 4) Select scourge group 5) Right click slightly past mutas or use move command to get them there 6) When most of the scourge are over the enemy mutas, use the attack command on the ground somewhere 7)... 8) Profits
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im like 15-1 against fayth.
how could you ever consider him a dificult opponent?
ret has told me the same thing (that fayth is quite good at pvz).
seriously, zvp has always been my worst z-matchup. I understand that he may not be trying his hardest vs a 'weak' opponent, but 15-1? how good can he be?
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Maybe it's because there are so many different ways to play ZvP... there's tech based, macro based, timing based, upgrade based... do you, ret, and iNc play similar ZvP or do you play a different style?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Just a clash of styles I do way better vs far stronger opponents. If it is any consolation the last few games I played vs Fayth I dominated.
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On January 31 2007 01:00 5HITCOMBO wrote: Maybe it's because there are so many different ways to play ZvP... there's tech based, macro based, timing based, upgrade based... do you, ret, and iNc play similar ZvP or do you play a different style?
i don't know inc's style all that well.
I like very fast hive with lots of drops and lots of tech switching with as few expos as possible.
Ret plays nothing like that.
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That might be why Ret has a hard time vs Fayth . I know that I have a very hard time vs proxy in ZvP, whereas my friend, who is much weaker overall, deals with it every time no problem. My ZvP style is very timing and expansion based, whereas his is very macro based. I think timing/expo is stronger, but macro has its merits .
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Mora plays your extremely typical east ish zvp (no offense mora) and Fayth struggles vs solid basic z's. I play very micro oriented with containment and fast ups. Things Fayth does well vs since he powers to shit and runs stuff over, same goes for ret.
That being said I think calling Fayth a bad player is short sided. Fayth did very well and was dangerous in all mu's on the foreign scene.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 12:43 1sd2sd3sd wrote: during zvz when do you think the best time to start your carapace upgrade is, a little while after expo?
during zvz what information should you use to decide when you make spore colonys, by the number of muta he is producing? and how many should you make? I know its situational pertaining to how many drones/how late in the game.
when you are behind in zvz is it better to go for an allin approach and hope to catch them being greedy or should you try to catch up by launching guirella attacks and hoping to inflict enoough damage to come back?
in zvp, when the toss fe's and you decide to 3 hat lurker contain with the 3rd hat going to seperate expo, when is it the safest time to whore drones if they are going zeal/archon/temp?
1. Upgrades are situational. I always upgrade once I get my expansion established with drones mining minerals and gas. If you are tight in a muta buildup or know hes attacking it would be intelligent to use that gas to make some reactionary scourge instead of an upgrade that might make a difference 5 minutes down the road.
2. For me its never a matter of how many muta they have. Its how many drones I ahve on minerals. If I was able to get a really strong economy going I throw down 1-2 spores at my main and nat just so that I can have more harrass flexibility. It also acts as an advantage for a cocky muta battler. The only other scenario where I would make spores is if I was behind in air force but was able to keep him at home with lings and needed to make spore to recover. Typically I just make scourge instead of spore though.
3. If you are behind you go for the two front approach / counters. I like to try and expand and make the z commit to stopping that so that I can mess up his economy with lings or muta. I also like to hit ovies and retreat than make my way to gas mining drones at the main/nat and hit the other with lings when he reacts. The best way to recover from being behind is make them fuck up. Do this in the way I described, have lings ready to counter try and expand to get the advantage back and keep your eye out for scraggline mutas/drones/scourge.
4. "Whoring drones" is always safest after winning a battle. That or when you know they are being passive ie few units and an expansion attempt of their own. This is very timing oriented and I would say just play lots of games to get the feel.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 15:22 Yogurt wrote: eh this might be beginner stuff but I need to know - drop terrans always give me problems
When the terran goes quick drop, what are some tell tale signs and what should you do?
If you see a very fast gas you can think 1 of 2 things typically tank push or drop. If you see a faster gas it is time to push for good scouting but also make more speed lings than typical. This counters both. if they quick drop you have a reaction force but also if they tank push you have a potential counter OR flank force. Sacrifice an ovie, try a ling run and have smart ovie positioning. Should be fine.
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United States20661 Posts
iNc: on say LT or Forte, vs T, do you always open muta first just in case of tankdrop? or do you go fast drop lurker or something?
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this is pretty cool! alough i dont play zerg anymore i found it an intresting read
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i totally see what you are getting at
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 03 2007 00:32 Last Romantic wrote: iNc: on say LT or Forte, vs T, do you always open muta first just in case of tankdrop? or do you go fast drop lurker or something?
On forte going 3 hatch muta is ALWAYS a good idea. T's typically FE on Forte where you have a natural cliff giving cover to mutas (as they pick off scv's). Also, because of the style of the ramp + main space T's tend to under defend the main area and build more below the ramp. That being said, this is ample ground for muta harrass (or mass muta +1 attack or armor) OR drop due to the small ramp making it hard for a force to react OR good for mutas to counter. As for the tank drop this is a horrible build that if done leaves you (the Z) with tons of possible reactionary bo's. A fast tank drop typically leaves the T open but also suggests they arent FE'ing themselves which is fine for the Z. Now you can lurk pressure them, muta pressure them or whatever you like. I usually respond (if I dont ahve the mutas) by expanding elsewhere and even expanding again (since they figure you to be behind now).
As for LT, any opening is fine. If your T opponent likes tank drops or you scout it go ahead and open with mutas. You don't ALWAYS have to open with mutas since T's dont ALWAYS open with tank drops. In fact they do a far less amount of the time. Mutas are good to go anyways though (that is why they rarely do it) so play accordingly. Should you get caught with a tank drop unprepared dont panic. The sacrifices they made to get that tank on your cliff so fast is equal to you losing a 300 mineral hatch.
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i need some PvZ advice:
what is the best course of action for a protoss vs masss lings? ex. you take expo and zergs takes a min only. Zerg goes double evo so you cant use the +1 effectively against him, and makes a spire to make scourge (prevent drops). Zerg proceed to add +2 hatch and goes pure ling while teching to hive.
Since he is not wasting any gas, only mineral, he'll have a ton of gas, make a round of ultras and gg me.
i tried to go zeal/archon, but even i i slaughter great ling numbers, they're just too much and end up being contained. I also have to choose between attacking and expoing, because if i chose to do both, my new expansion will be canceled due to 8-10 ling there, just waiting to kill it. if i move my army to protect my expo (of course , before i go cannons) zerg takes a gas expo and turtles it, + having all his lings to either counter my main, or just waiting to contain.
i thought of sair/dt, but its too gas intensive and if spoted, a switch to hydra will kill me. Do i need better storming? ty
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Get archons asap after zealots and get your own min only up asap. If you fe you can't stop the zerg from taking another expo with just zealots unless zerg really fucks up. Archon/zealot is the right counter vs mass lings.
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Incontrol it might look weird to ask you this. The middle game push in ZvT is really hard to handle, 6-7 tank + 3 control of marine with medic. No way in heaven I have hive tech, marine are usually 1-1. I usually just flank and try delay so I get hive but it's rarely possible. If T micro it well it's kinna hard to fight spread tank with lurk/ling.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 19:08 oddeye wrote: Incontrol it might look weird to ask you this. The middle game push in ZvT is really hard to handle, 6-7 tank + 3 control of marine with medic. No way in heaven I have hive tech, marine are usually 1-1. I usually just flank and try delay so I get hive but it's rarely possible. If T micro it well it's kinna hard to fight spread tank with lurk/ling.
The scenario you describe would be very hard to handle at mid game. That type of army seems to be a more mid-to late or second wave type force. That being said, you have to attack such a group in a very intelligent way. First off, delay as much as possible. Use lurks to keep the tanks in front, when SCI's stray to far pick it off with scourges or at least be mindful. Have your forces positioned in such a way that they can react the second he gets lazy with the tanks. If he leaves them unsieged and just pushed at your lurks unburrow them get them in the tank's faces and burrow with mass lings coming (or hydra) to circle and tear. The delay tactic is so that you can mass more and more. Positioning vs the army you describe is ESSENTIAL. This is the most standard T army these days and it would be very easy for you to practice vs. Grab a T partner and just play standard games vs him. Make sure you secure 3-4 geysers by this time and make him mindful of his SCI vessels. Do what I instructed and you should be ok. If you stave off this force you need to have hive for the end game.
In addition, counter are a nice thing to try. More risky but with that risk comes the risk of winning as well. Worth a shot.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 17:53 RtS)Night[Mare wrote: i need some PvZ advice:
what is the best course of action for a protoss vs masss lings? ex. you take expo and zergs takes a min only. Zerg goes double evo so you cant use the +1 effectively against him, and makes a spire to make scourge (prevent drops). Zerg proceed to add +2 hatch and goes pure ling while teching to hive.
Since he is not wasting any gas, only mineral, he'll have a ton of gas, make a round of ultras and gg me.
i tried to go zeal/archon, but even i i slaughter great ling numbers, they're just too much and end up being contained. I also have to choose between attacking and expoing, because if i chose to do both, my new expansion will be canceled due to 8-10 ling there, just waiting to kill it. if i move my army to protect my expo (of course , before i go cannons) zerg takes a gas expo and turtles it, + having all his lings to either counter my main, or just waiting to contain.
i thought of sair/dt, but its too gas intensive and if spoted, a switch to hydra will kill me. Do i need better storming? ty
The Z you just described is essentially my style as well I think the strongest counter is fairly similar to what Zulu just said, get archons than push for your own mineral nat. From there gain mid control with archon / zeal and 2 forge with templar. Smart storming and proper zealot positioning coupled with archons can win you the game. Also a very smart mentality to insitute vs a Z like that is DT drops (if scourge you need to be sneaky or fast). Another addition needed to be made is including reavers in your army. Great for expo defense but even better behind the zealot/archon force. In my opinion, that mix is the best vs mass melee army from Z.
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overlords often stick together when you try to make a big drop and it gives opponents a lot of time to retreat back, do you know how do pros drop their units in the overlords?
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dts are very very very very very very very very very annoying for a zergling zerg because they are hard to kill and you have to have overlord speed before hive usually and that delays your hive.
What is your logic behind countering and more importantly gaining back advantage. When say you had one of your expos killed so it's only 2 base vs 3 base protoss, is your first instinct to attack protoss's natural or new expo or wherever his army is not with everything you have then build drones when you succeed and turtle more when you don't? Why do your counters seem to work so often? Versus reaver/sair when do you decide to attack the toss's natural?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 19:52 Ash wrote: overlords often stick together when you try to make a big drop and it gives opponents a lot of time to retreat back, do you know how do pros drop their units in the overlords?
This is actually one of the few things in bw I have no idea of. Testie tried to teach me once but to no avail. If anyone can explain this or link an explanation that'd help this thread greatly.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 19:52 zulu_nation8 wrote: dts are very very very very very very very very very annoying for a zergling zerg because they are hard to kill and you have to have overlord speed before hive usually and that delays your hive.
What is your logic behind countering and more importantly gaining back advantage. When say you had one of your expos killed so it's only 2 base vs 3 base protoss, is your first instinct to attack protoss's natural or new expo or wherever his army is not with everything you have then build drones when you succeed and turtle more when you don't? Why do your counters seem to work so often? Versus reaver/sair when do you decide to attack the toss's natural?
1. Countering for me is a way of gaining an advantage when you need it. Obviously if you are ahead in the game you don't need this since you can smash them head on. If you are behind however attacking unexpectadly after they move out could be the only way back into the game. If I counter with lurkers I like to leave a few behind in hopes of hitting marched units without detection. Countering is risky though because if you dont NEED to do it it can swing the advantage for them ie a good defense or poor counter.
2. If I lose an expo zvp and he has a macro advantage my first thought is to gain the edge back. I dont typically wait, i usually put myself in the position to trade UP as oppose to equally. If they get my 3rd nat I go for their main or natural expansion disconnecting the main from the farther nat, for easier pickings later. If this is not possible and you lose your eco advantage I usually seek for a way to gain it back like countering after the next attack or drops (best response imo).
3. My counters work well because I have been doing it for years and naturally slide myself into the situation where I can trade UP with a counter or do te little things that make a counter much better like leaving behind lurks or targetingimportant production buildings (or tech). I also do alot to hide counters which makes the chance of them working much more plausible.
4. Typically you should almost never attack a sair/reaver P nat. You hold them to that Nat and MAYBE 1 island (or other nat) and starve them. Remake your dead expos and keep picking off sairs/shuttles with your massive +1 hydra army. If the chance opens up (like you scout no reavers at the nat) go for a frontal and end it like you see in so many replays these days.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
UP = gaining an advantage. Moving up. Getting better. Doing above average.
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On February 07 2007 20:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2007 19:52 Ash wrote: overlords often stick together when you try to make a big drop and it gives opponents a lot of time to retreat back, do you know how do pros drop their units in the overlords? This is actually one of the few things in bw I have no idea of. Testie tried to teach me once but to no avail. If anyone can explain this or link an explanation that'd help this thread greatly. There is a really professional hard way to do it that involves having a "center of gravity" and stuff, but I'll teach you two easy ways:
1) Click unload all and target the minimap. Less precise, but perfect spread. 2) Do the normal drop, but then select half of your lords and drop again nearby, then start selecting individual lords and have them unload all upon themselves. They'll do a moving drop.
The hard way to do it:
Group your overlords so that they are in some sort of geometric formation (square, circle, triangle, etc.). Move them towards an opponent's base. Make sure the center of your formation is aligned with where you want to drop, and click unload all on that point. Hopefully, your units will unload all at once. If not, your formation will break and you'll do a regular one by one retard drop... which is why I usually use the minimap instead.
I've been thinking about doing it by having a group of full overlords going towards an opponent's base selected with an overlord you have at your base (july muta harass style) and then unloading all upon a certain spot. I think it would work in much the same way that the center of gravity thing would, but I haven't tested it yet. I'll get back to you on that.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Thanks 5hitcombo You have improved this thread.
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This thread is pretty amazing. I have a pretty specific (and probably easy to answer) question. When you go lurk first VS Terran (I usually go muta first so I feel a little out of my element here) what do you do with your lurkers when you make them? Just sit them in the middle of the map and contain? Hold lurker? Set them up in different places? Defend ur expos? Also, at what point will you be generally getting your 3rd gas, assuming they 2 rax or 1 rax expo?
Sorry for so many questions in one, thanks for all the help you've been so far!
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On February 08 2007 14:55 5HITCOMBO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2007 20:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On February 07 2007 19:52 Ash wrote: overlords often stick together when you try to make a big drop and it gives opponents a lot of time to retreat back, do you know how do pros drop their units in the overlords? This is actually one of the few things in bw I have no idea of. Testie tried to teach me once but to no avail. If anyone can explain this or link an explanation that'd help this thread greatly. There is a really professional hard way to do it that involves having a "center of gravity" and stuff, but I'll teach you two easy ways: 1) Click unload all and target the minimap. Less precise, but perfect spread. 2) Do the normal drop, but then select half of your lords and drop again nearby, then start selecting individual lords and have them unload all upon themselves. They'll do a moving drop. The hard way to do it: Group your overlords so that they are in some sort of geometric formation (square, circle, triangle, etc.). Move them towards an opponent's base. Make sure the center of your formation is aligned with where you want to drop, and click unload all on that point. Hopefully, your units will unload all at once. If not, your formation will break and you'll do a regular one by one retard drop... which is why I usually use the minimap instead. I've been thinking about doing it by having a group of full overlords going towards an opponent's base selected with an overlord you have at your base (july muta harass style) and then unloading all upon a certain spot. I think it would work in much the same way that the center of gravity thing would, but I haven't tested it yet. I'll get back to you on that.
I tried the first way you mentioned earlier today but my overlords still stick together when they reach the target place to drop, I basically selected all my overlords then pressed "u" and click on the mini map. Any ideas why it doesnt work for me?
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umm i would like to ask how iNc u use the f2f3f4 keys? i found this key are very useful for controling the expansion while microing the army outside. So how will u set the screen postions to those function keys? personally i set f2 for main f3 for first expansion f4 for second expansion but i hv problem with the third fourth expansion and so on... umm sry for my bad english
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On February 09 2007 03:58 Ash wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2007 14:55 5HITCOMBO wrote:On February 07 2007 20:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On February 07 2007 19:52 Ash wrote: overlords often stick together when you try to make a big drop and it gives opponents a lot of time to retreat back, do you know how do pros drop their units in the overlords? This is actually one of the few things in bw I have no idea of. Testie tried to teach me once but to no avail. If anyone can explain this or link an explanation that'd help this thread greatly. There is a really professional hard way to do it that involves having a "center of gravity" and stuff, but I'll teach you two easy ways: 1) Click unload all and target the minimap. Less precise, but perfect spread. 2) Do the normal drop, but then select half of your lords and drop again nearby, then start selecting individual lords and have them unload all upon themselves. They'll do a moving drop. The hard way to do it: Group your overlords so that they are in some sort of geometric formation (square, circle, triangle, etc.). Move them towards an opponent's base. Make sure the center of your formation is aligned with where you want to drop, and click unload all on that point. Hopefully, your units will unload all at once. If not, your formation will break and you'll do a regular one by one retard drop... which is why I usually use the minimap instead. I've been thinking about doing it by having a group of full overlords going towards an opponent's base selected with an overlord you have at your base (july muta harass style) and then unloading all upon a certain spot. I think it would work in much the same way that the center of gravity thing would, but I haven't tested it yet. I'll get back to you on that. I tried the first way you mentioned earlier today but my overlords still stick together when they reach the target place to drop, I basically selected all my overlords then pressed "u" and click on the mini map. Any ideas why it doesnt work for me? You know, I'm not sure. The minimap version almost always works for me. Maybe try spreading your lords a bit beforehand if it doesn't work when you simply target the minimap.
Oh, and I tested it - it doesn't seem to work when you have a lord that's halfway across the map selected with a group that's dropping, though the one that was halfway across the map didn't have a unit that could unload inside of it. Gonna test again with a unit when I play another zvt or something .
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 08 2007 23:38 IdiotWind wrote: This thread is pretty amazing. I have a pretty specific (and probably easy to answer) question. When you go lurk first VS Terran (I usually go muta first so I feel a little out of my element here) what do you do with your lurkers when you make them? Just sit them in the middle of the map and contain? Hold lurker? Set them up in different places? Defend ur expos? Also, at what point will you be generally getting your 3rd gas, assuming they 2 rax or 1 rax expo?
Sorry for so many questions in one, thanks for all the help you've been so far!
Do all of what you said. It is situation based. if they are early aggressors I use hold lurk to catch an army for free. If I expanded I put 2 on the ramp. Otherwise I roam the middle and wait for tanks (position wars).
I usually get my 3rd gas AFTER the tech. that means once I get 9 mutas or my lurkers out I usually look to get that gas than. That is assuming I did not go for a 3rd hatch expo sneak expand.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 11 2007 06:27 EndRoll wrote: umm i would like to ask how iNc u use the f2f3f4 keys? i found this key are very useful for controling the expansion while microing the army outside. So how will u set the screen postions to those function keys? personally i set f2 for main f3 for first expansion f4 for second expansion but i hv problem with the third fourth expansion and so on... umm sry for my bad english
Your english is fine H elluva lot better than my mandarin/cantonese! I don't use f2f3f4 but I have been meaning to incorporate it. I will try it tonight or soon and get back to you
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On January 29 2007 02:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 02:09 Overlord wrote: And a bonus question, which interests me more from the P's point of view: Some years ago, when the z went muta, the answer was archon. But with today's muta microers an archon can do nothing, but wander in the mineral line, while he mutas pick all the probes one-by-one. What is the best defense as protoss vs muta harass? Cannon (how many)? Storm? Goons?
Thx Best thing a P can do vs muta harrass is combo of cannon / archon at mineral line or storm than sair. Pretty basic. been inactive a bit so didn't notice this thread until now.
if we're talking about early muta harass: 1.how exactly do you suppose protoss can have both sairs,archons and storms in time before mutas? in most cases you have around 2cors+cannons or 2ht with storms when mutas arrive. 2.protoss can't afford making corsairs because it makes him vulnerable to fake mutas into 3hat hydra push-example zerg puts spire in "not obvius place but you can still see it" and hides his real hydra tech. 3hat hydra push makes toss life really hard cuz if u don't make a perfect bo to counter it u'r dead-especially if z's got some micro skills.
so my question is what's the best solution to 3hat hydra push that doesn't put u behind 2much?-yes,you can always go fast storm but then u'r low on army and let zerg take map control and by the time u get an army going he'll have some massive mondy style lurk contain.
you can go fast exp but u have to know he goes 3hat hydras so u have enough amount of cannons. so far i've found 1gate opening into 2gate +1 speed lots not bad-but i get a feeling if zerg mixes up lings with those hydras i'll get killed again. also let's say u went 1gate/stargate classical cors+dt opening and you see zerg goes that nasty push-what can you do at that point?-again situation is u have let's say storm coming but again u have to play passive and he manages to sneak an overlord so your dt is pretty useless,so your options are kinda limited.
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On February 13 2007 12:11 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2007 06:27 EndRoll wrote: umm i would like to ask how iNc u use the f2f3f4 keys? i found this key are very useful for controling the expansion while microing the army outside. So how will u set the screen postions to those function keys? personally i set f2 for main f3 for first expansion f4 for second expansion but i hv problem with the third fourth expansion and so on... umm sry for my bad english Your english is fine H elluva lot better than my mandarin/cantonese! I don't use f2f3f4 but I have been meaning to incorporate it. I will try it tonight or soon and get back to you
Thanks for your reply. Sorry but I have another question about zvp. In most games of zvp i just dunno how to play. Should I use 4-hatch hydra?4 hatch ling? 3 - hatch hydra? lurker ling? muta? And I am so confused with the variety that zerg can play in zvp. Unlike zvt, which 3 hatch muta or 2 hatch lurkers can deal with most stiuation. What is your most common strategy in zvp? or are there any rules for you to decide whether you use hydra or muta in early game? Lurker in zvp is used to contain p for zerg to tech fast to hive, is this correct?
Thanks
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iNcontroL
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On February 13 2007 19:18 Dendra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2007 02:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On January 29 2007 02:09 Overlord wrote: And a bonus question, which interests me more from the P's point of view: Some years ago, when the z went muta, the answer was archon. But with today's muta microers an archon can do nothing, but wander in the mineral line, while he mutas pick all the probes one-by-one. What is the best defense as protoss vs muta harass? Cannon (how many)? Storm? Goons?
Thx Best thing a P can do vs muta harrass is combo of cannon / archon at mineral line or storm than sair. Pretty basic. been inactive a bit so didn't notice this thread until now. if we're talking about early muta harass: 1.how exactly do you suppose protoss can have both sairs,archons and storms in time before mutas? in most cases you have around 2cors+cannons or 2ht with storms when mutas arrive. 2.protoss can't afford making corsairs because it makes him vulnerable to fake mutas into 3hat hydra push-example zerg puts spire in "not obvius place but you can still see it" and hides his real hydra tech. 3hat hydra push makes toss life really hard cuz if u don't make a perfect bo to counter it u'r dead-especially if z's got some micro skills. so my question is what's the best solution to 3hat hydra push that doesn't put u behind 2much?-yes,you can always go fast storm but then u'r low on army and let zerg take map control and by the time u get an army going he'll have some massive mondy style lurk contain. you can go fast exp but u have to know he goes 3hat hydras so u have enough amount of cannons. so far i've found 1gate opening into 2gate +1 speed lots not bad-but i get a feeling if zerg mixes up lings with those hydras i'll get killed again. also let's say u went 1gate/stargate classical cors+dt opening and you see zerg goes that nasty push-what can you do at that point?-again situation is u have let's say storm coming but again u have to play passive and he manages to sneak an overlord so your dt is pretty useless,so your options are kinda limited.
1. Because "early muta harrass" now'n'days means 3 hatch or even 4 hatch muta. Which is fine, if your a tech P you can make the first 2 HT into a Archon and the next 1-3 temp with storm all after a sair opening. temp should get storm a little after mutas arrive so if you put em around cannons or w/e, you are fine. Additionally all you really need is 1 or 2 of the options, not all. Archons/cannon is fine, temp/cannon is fine and so is corsair/cannon. If you can squeek in a third factor your more fine 2. If you go sair you should never lose to a "fake muta tech" with 3 hatch hydra. If they hide the 3rd hatch somewhere completely unpredictable you should either A. find it with the sair or B. be smart enough to know something is up when the Z starts making hydras to protect the ovies. So your question is bunk because the scenario you discuss is rediculous. If you lose in that scenario no advice I could ever post here will save you.
Going vs 3 hatch hydra is fairly simple. Almost all builds are great vs it. You can go toe to toe and just 3 gate +1 lot with archons and than storm or you can FE and cannon to shit with speed lots or you can sair open with DT if they slow push an ovie sneak dt's into their main and kill em that way. 3 hatch hydra is very primitive, you only see top players do it when the situation arise for this to be effective ie an early advantage or risky build from P. Proper scouting is key, if you see the Z going massive hydra from 3 hatch make a ton of sunks and have some sort of units ready. if you storm probably a good idea to go reaver/sair or just straight lots like normal.
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iNcontroL
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On February 14 2007 05:55 EndRoll wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2007 12:11 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On February 11 2007 06:27 EndRoll wrote: umm i would like to ask how iNc u use the f2f3f4 keys? i found this key are very useful for controling the expansion while microing the army outside. So how will u set the screen postions to those function keys? personally i set f2 for main f3 for first expansion f4 for second expansion but i hv problem with the third fourth expansion and so on... umm sry for my bad english Your english is fine H elluva lot better than my mandarin/cantonese! I don't use f2f3f4 but I have been meaning to incorporate it. I will try it tonight or soon and get back to you Thanks for your reply. Sorry but I have another question about zvp. In most games of zvp i just dunno how to play. Should I use 4-hatch hydra?4 hatch ling? 3 - hatch hydra? lurker ling? muta? And I am so confused with the variety that zerg can play in zvp. Unlike zvt, which 3 hatch muta or 2 hatch lurkers can deal with most stiuation. What is your most common strategy in zvp? or are there any rules for you to decide whether you use hydra or muta in early game? Lurker in zvp is used to contain p for zerg to tech fast to hive, is this correct? Thanks
read the ZvP guide I already posted and than reorganize your question to better suit thought AFTER reading what I posted. I can better help those who at least first try to help themselves.
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On February 13 2007 19:18 Dendra wrote: if we're talking about early muta harass: 1.how exactly do you suppose protoss can have both sairs,archons and storms in time before mutas? in most cases you have around 2cors+cannons or 2ht with storms when mutas arrive. 2.protoss can't afford making corsairs because it makes him vulnerable to fake mutas into 3hat hydra push-example zerg puts spire in "not obvius place but you can still see it" and hides his real hydra tech. 3hat hydra push makes toss life really hard cuz if u don't make a perfect bo to counter it u'r dead-especially if z's got some micro skills. If you can't survive an "early muta harass" with 2 corsairs and a few cannons or ht/an archon and cannons, work on your micro. Shit, often times, hitting a pack of mutas with ONE good storm is enough to make them think twice about trying to harass, especially if you have a cannon or two or an archon. Archons are a huge deterrent to mutas.
And even if you weren't completely over-exaggerating how effective 3 hat hydras are (basically any strat can beat it - the ONLY danger is in the timing of their first attack, and if you get speed on your zealots, delay it with a dt, or get one good storm, you've beat it), YOU WENT SAIR, YOU SEE WHAT HE'S DOING. That's the point of sair first, that you can make the perfect counter build.
so my question is what's the best solution to 3hat hydra push that doesn't put u behind 2much?-yes,you can always go fast storm but then u'r low on army and let zerg take map control and by the time u get an army going he'll have some massive mondy style lurk contain. Does it really hurt you that much to research storm with two gasses and two nexuses? I suggest working on your build order for FE.
you can go fast exp but u have to know he goes 3hat hydras so u have enough amount of cannons. so far i've found 1gate opening into 2gate +1 speed lots not bad-but i get a feeling if zerg mixes up lings with those hydras i'll get killed again. As long as you do enough damage to make his force too weak to break your cannons, you have accomplished your goal. If you force him to make units, he won't be able to power. Be more aggressive.
also let's say u went 1gate/stargate classical cors+dt opening and you see zerg goes that nasty push-what can you do at that point?-again situation is u have let's say storm coming but again u have to play passive and he manages to sneak an overlord so your dt is pretty useless,so your options are kinda limited.
You should have +1 researching, storm researching, and your second nexus running. Add 2-3 gates. If you can't beat 3 hat hydras with +1 speedlots and storm (with dt, even, but you really don't have to make more than 2 dt with this build, if any at all - basically, they're just to delay the zerg until his lord speed completes or until his slow lord pushes across the map with hydras, then patrol expos, which makes it extremely hard for a zerg to expand like a whore), maybe you should switch to zerg because they're so extremely imbalanced.
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iNcontroL
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5hitcombo although I appreciate your help. This is a thread asking people to post questions to which I will answer. If you are going to be abrasive and semi-rude I'd ask you take it elsewhere.
Your advice is welcome but cut out the subtle jabs and unnecessary abrasive tones.
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On February 15 2007 14:49 5HITCOMBO wrote:Show nested quote + also let's say u went 1gate/stargate classical cors+dt opening and you see zerg goes that nasty push-what can you do at that point?-again situation is u have let's say storm coming but again u have to play passive and he manages to sneak an overlord so your dt is pretty useless,so your options are kinda limited.
You should have +1 researching, storm researching, and your second nexus running. Add 2-3 gates. If you can't beat 3 hat hydras with +1 speedlots and storm (with dt, even, but you really don't have to make more than 2 dt with this build, if any at all - basically, they're just to delay the zerg until his lord speed completes or until his slow lord pushes across the map with hydras, then patrol expos, which makes it extremely hard for a zerg to expand like a whore), maybe you should switch to zerg because they're so extremely imbalanced.
he's going 1 gate sair, he should not have +1 researching nor 2nd nexus running when he sees 3 hatch hydra.
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When someone fake muta's into like 3 hat dra on something like lt or luna, if you've fe'd and they're being aggressive do u'll cut probe production?
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OK
I've played alot of games against 1 gate sar, 1 gate templar, fast expo, etc so I am fairly comfortable with the early - mid game little "twists", but seen playing on abyss I see alot of players going 2 gate heavy zeal - quick nexus. What should my frame work be after the initial scout it, oh shit, build 2-3 sunks and try not to lose any probes? I feel like I must power and tech or be over run, but then I'm short on units, so I tech to lurkers before expoing to a min only; is this the right early game approach? Should I go muta to exploit his delayed tech or is muta too big a gamble? Should i mass enough lings to defend and expo? Or should i 4 hatch before tech so I can mass and drone at the same time?
Thanks!
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Hello, Control. I hope this is a good enough reason to bump. Read your thread and am astounded by your Zerg expertise. I was wondering if you would probably watch 1 or 2 at most replays of mine to assess my Zerg problems and what I'm doing wrong. I usually run a fast pool out of fear of a 6 ling rush. Then i use the Gas trick for an extra Drone (twice). I go early Lair + Lurker and Spire for MutaLurker harass (on every race). I would like to know when to make tech Burrow, Sunkens, upgrade, (I always go for Lurker + Spire fast) and expand of course. OR instead of expanding, maybe a 2nd or 3rd Hatch? Any input on these departments? Please and thanks!
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