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Last Romantic
United States20667 Posts
On January 29 2007 10:05 mK.)) wrote: do zergs ever lay dual spire to upgrade faster? just wondering.. I haven't seen it in pro game. I've seen dual ultra den though. And dual defiler. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
edit: I actually seem to remember a greater spire + spire game on one of the first games on desert fox, i think zvp | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On January 29 2007 11:13 Last Romantic wrote: I haven't seen it in pro game. I've seen dual ultra den though. And dual defiler. generally when you're going ultra you have a reasonable economy and the armor/speed ups are so helpful that its economically worthwhile to get both right away. zvz wasting another 200/150 (or whatever a spire is) is suicidal. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
does anyone else go sextuple archives and quintuple beacon? | ||
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
 Continueing muta seems to be suicide against uped hydras, lings are fairly uselss if you can't get a big lead (hard if they FEd and you didn't).zvz is 3hatch 3rd at expo a good strat? I lost in longinus one time with a 4hatch 2base against 2hatch 1 base >< zvp what is it you look for when scouting to determine whether to try a lurk contain or go muta? pvz I often lose to a simple mass ling, what should you look for in p to see if you can run them over with straight ling? Is Sauronzerg a good option, and again, what should you see that makes you do it? From your experience is 1base p harder/easier to fight than FE p? And what is a better FE counter, a lurk contain with 2nd expo? lurk contain with just 2base? Something else? I generally have more luck with mutas than lurks, but most pros it seems get lurks not muta. Is a defiler/crax up rush plausible/decent? I like getting gas when I get a 3rd hatch (usually around 18 or so), if I lair first I like making queens nest as soon as lair is done then going hive for fast defilers and crax ups while getting atleast double ups for lings and trying a mass ling, idk how realistic a strat like that is; sometimes it works, but mostly it just delays a loss; if it is initially successfull at stopping p expoing/preventing my doom how should I follow it up? | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On January 29 2007 13:04 il0seonpurpose wrote: can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta? In ZvZ, the early mobility is very important. Because mutas can run around picking off drones and lone hydras/lords/lings in the early- to mid-game, you usually are forced to go mutas yourself so you don't get contained in your base by his harassment. The hydras are cost-wise more efficient, but the mobility of mutas negates their power. Late game, though, you both have mutas and the mobility is less of a factor. Now is the time to do your tech switch. Just like with any ranged units (m/m, goons, tanks, gols, etc.), hydras get more effective with bigger numbers. Couple that with the late game econ (you can now afford to get double upgrades on hydras WHILE pumping), and you get a very feasible tech switch. Lategame, hydras also tend to couple very well with hive tech in zvz. Hydra/Devourer, Hydra/Defiler, and Hydra/Queen are all very powerful against muta, and the latter two are very effective against hydras as well. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
The great thing about mass ling is that you get your 3-3, cracklings, and a large group of ultralisks (and all the benefits of having a hive) when the protoss is expecting your late-midgame. So, by skipping that early-midgame and late-midgame tech (lair tech), you save gas for a massive ultra/ling force, which is the strategy you aim for anyway. This is counter-intuitive, because most of zerg's strength lies in their midgame tech and ability to switch between them. The downside is that you have to watch out for corsairs and DTs. If it catches you off guard, you can lose a lot of units and maybe an expo or two, so be very careful and make sure you drop a spire (for scourge) and upgrade lord speed if you feel that he might make dt/sair. You can even switch over to hydra/ling and maybe drop a third evo chamber if you have secured your second expansion. This is one of the matchups where hydralisks can shine, especially with 2-2 lings (or whatever you have). Late game... well, you've still got most of that gas, and ultras are always a good choice. | ||
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
On January 29 2007 11:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: the real question is does anyone else go sextuple archives and quintuple beacon? lol sex this brings so much life back into the strategy forum you should get like some kind of cool award or something | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 13:04 il0seonpurpose wrote: can zerg switch up to hydras after in long games? i saw a korean highlight and both zergs were low on money so they switched to hydra, it was a nice battle. but is it cuz microing mutas can pick off hydras easily which is why zerg goes muta? Sure late game you can switch. I prefer to just go hive however and plague their mutas. Hydra in ZvZ just simply is not something to "work into" or switch to. There is no net benefit to doing it. Why have pabs blue ribbon when you could have a micro ale? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 13:52 Nightmarjoo wrote: zvz if they go FE -> 4hatch hydra with ups and you weren't able to do anything with muta lead and can't break the nat with lings what should you do? I mean I spose you could avoid the situation, but if you're in it it's nice to know what to do Continueing muta seems to be suicide against uped hydras, lings are fairly uselss if you can't get a big lead (hard if they FEd and you didn't).zvz is 3hatch 3rd at expo a good strat? I lost in longinus one time with a 4hatch 2base against 2hatch 1 base >< zvp what is it you look for when scouting to determine whether to try a lurk contain or go muta? pvz I often lose to a simple mass ling, what should you look for in p to see if you can run them over with straight ling? Is Sauronzerg a good option, and again, what should you see that makes you do it? From your experience is 1base p harder/easier to fight than FE p? And what is a better FE counter, a lurk contain with 2nd expo? lurk contain with just 2base? Something else? I generally have more luck with mutas than lurks, but most pros it seems get lurks not muta. Is a defiler/crax up rush plausible/decent? I like getting gas when I get a 3rd hatch (usually around 18 or so), if I lair first I like making queens nest as soon as lair is done then going hive for fast defilers and crax ups while getting atleast double ups for lings and trying a mass ling, idk how realistic a strat like that is; sometimes it works, but mostly it just delays a loss; if it is initially successfull at stopping p expoing/preventing my doom how should I follow it up? 1. Asking me questions that are like "So im way behind and going to lose how do i XXX" wont get a constructive answer. If you are far behind the best thing to do is hope and pray for an opening like them leaving the base and you countering. Or perhaps an ambush of sorts. You need to do something to get the edge back or at least make the game fair. This is fairly common sense though and applies to any BW situation. 2. I look for a tech. Faster robo = reaver or drop perhaps. Seeing a gate means sair to dt or such. Scouting is typically to check for a proxy 1st, than for what kind of rush / FE they are doing. Than its for tech typically in that order. Running over with straight ling is easy, if you see a 1 gate or perhaps a 1 cannon gate expo build it is fairly simple to gauge the worth of trying a run over. 3. Both 1 gate and FE can equally be hard. Non FE is in a sense more difficult because if they are able to block your scouting the game becomes a guessing game for the zerg which can lead to a loss. FE is slightly more predictable and with lots of practice can become a timed affair. Vs FE any kind of rush is going to be risky. Rushes by nature are risky so ask yourself if you like to play that way. If you can play straight up or have an edge in BO / timing just go with that, why risk it? | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 29 2007 15:38 tKd_ wrote: wait for scourge, you don't clone but rather press A? Also are the scourge relatively stacked when you do this? Read the part about spacing. | ||
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funkie
Venezuela9377 Posts
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
i'm just curious as i need new builds and stuff also thank you for the zvz guide, it actually has made zvz interesting for me, and i have fun playing it ( helpful seeing as the excess of zergs i seem to encounter on abyss server ) | ||
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
On January 29 2007 15:19 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Sure late game you can switch. I prefer to just go hive however and plague their mutas. Hydra in ZvZ just simply is not something to "work into" or switch to. There is no net benefit to doing it. Why have pabs blue ribbon when you could have a micro ale? cause you can get a 24 pack of PBR for near the price of a 6 pack of micro ale | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9111 Posts
-talking about ZvP as i'm sure you can tell | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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EGMachine
United States1643 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20667 Posts
I like 10h10o10s, fun to do double extractor trick. Inc: this may seem like a ridiculous question, but vs double or triple gate zealot rush, how many sunken do you make? do you make more or less based on number of probes brought along, and if so, how many? I always screw up my judgment vs 2gate rush and lose more drones than I should. | ||
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