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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
 . I know that I have a very hard time vs proxy in ZvP, whereas my friend, who is much weaker overall, deals with it every time no problem. My ZvP style is very timing and expansion based, whereas his is very macro based. I think timing/expo is stronger, but macro has its merits . | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
That being said I think calling Fayth a bad player is short sided. Fayth did very well and was dangerous in all mu's on the foreign scene. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 12:43 1sd2sd3sd wrote: during zvz when do you think the best time to start your carapace upgrade is, a little while after expo? during zvz what information should you use to decide when you make spore colonys, by the number of muta he is producing? and how many should you make? I know its situational pertaining to how many drones/how late in the game. when you are behind in zvz is it better to go for an allin approach and hope to catch them being greedy or should you try to catch up by launching guirella attacks and hoping to inflict enoough damage to come back? in zvp, when the toss fe's and you decide to 3 hat lurker contain with the 3rd hat going to seperate expo, when is it the safest time to whore drones if they are going zeal/archon/temp? 1. Upgrades are situational. I always upgrade once I get my expansion established with drones mining minerals and gas. If you are tight in a muta buildup or know hes attacking it would be intelligent to use that gas to make some reactionary scourge instead of an upgrade that might make a difference 5 minutes down the road. 2. For me its never a matter of how many muta they have. Its how many drones I ahve on minerals. If I was able to get a really strong economy going I throw down 1-2 spores at my main and nat just so that I can have more harrass flexibility. It also acts as an advantage for a cocky muta battler. The only other scenario where I would make spores is if I was behind in air force but was able to keep him at home with lings and needed to make spore to recover. Typically I just make scourge instead of spore though. 3. If you are behind you go for the two front approach / counters. I like to try and expand and make the z commit to stopping that so that I can mess up his economy with lings or muta. I also like to hit ovies and retreat than make my way to gas mining drones at the main/nat and hit the other with lings when he reacts. The best way to recover from being behind is make them fuck up. Do this in the way I described, have lings ready to counter try and expand to get the advantage back and keep your eye out for scraggline mutas/drones/scourge. 4. "Whoring drones" is always safest after winning a battle. That or when you know they are being passive ie few units and an expansion attempt of their own. This is very timing oriented and I would say just play lots of games to get the feel. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 30 2007 15:22 Yogurt wrote: eh this might be beginner stuff but I need to know - drop terrans always give me problems When the terran goes quick drop, what are some tell tale signs and what should you do? If you see a very fast gas you can think 1 of 2 things typically tank push or drop. If you see a faster gas it is time to push for good scouting but also make more speed lings than typical. This counters both. if they quick drop you have a reaction force but also if they tank push you have a potential counter OR flank force. Sacrifice an ovie, try a ling run and have smart ovie positioning. Should be fine. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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Fag
United Kingdom15 Posts
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PervySage
United States4 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 03 2007 00:32 Last Romantic wrote: iNc: on say LT or Forte, vs T, do you always open muta first just in case of tankdrop? or do you go fast drop lurker or something? On forte going 3 hatch muta is ALWAYS a good idea. T's typically FE on Forte where you have a natural cliff giving cover to mutas (as they pick off scv's). Also, because of the style of the ramp + main space T's tend to under defend the main area and build more below the ramp. That being said, this is ample ground for muta harrass (or mass muta +1 attack or armor) OR drop due to the small ramp making it hard for a force to react OR good for mutas to counter. As for the tank drop this is a horrible build that if done leaves you (the Z) with tons of possible reactionary bo's. A fast tank drop typically leaves the T open but also suggests they arent FE'ing themselves which is fine for the Z. Now you can lurk pressure them, muta pressure them or whatever you like. I usually respond (if I dont ahve the mutas) by expanding elsewhere and even expanding again (since they figure you to be behind now). As for LT, any opening is fine. If your T opponent likes tank drops or you scout it go ahead and open with mutas. You don't ALWAYS have to open with mutas since T's dont ALWAYS open with tank drops. In fact they do a far less amount of the time. Mutas are good to go anyways though (that is why they rarely do it) so play accordingly. Should you get caught with a tank drop unprepared dont panic. The sacrifices they made to get that tank on your cliff so fast is equal to you losing a 300 mineral hatch. | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
what is the best course of action for a protoss vs masss lings? ex. you take expo and zergs takes a min only. Zerg goes double evo so you cant use the +1 effectively against him, and makes a spire to make scourge (prevent drops). Zerg proceed to add +2 hatch and goes pure ling while teching to hive. Since he is not wasting any gas, only mineral, he'll have a ton of gas, make a round of ultras and gg me. i tried to go zeal/archon, but even i i slaughter great ling numbers, they're just too much and end up being contained. I also have to choose between attacking and expoing, because if i chose to do both, my new expansion will be canceled due to 8-10 ling there, just waiting to kill it. if i move my army to protect my expo (of course , before i go cannons) zerg takes a gas expo and turtles it, + having all his lings to either counter my main, or just waiting to contain. i thought of sair/dt, but its too gas intensive and if spoted, a switch to hydra will kill me. Do i need better storming? ty | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 19:08 oddeye wrote: Incontrol it might look weird to ask you this. The middle game push in ZvT is really hard to handle, 6-7 tank + 3 control of marine with medic. No way in heaven I have hive tech, marine are usually 1-1. I usually just flank and try delay so I get hive but it's rarely possible. If T micro it well it's kinna hard to fight spread tank with lurk/ling. The scenario you describe would be very hard to handle at mid game. That type of army seems to be a more mid-to late or second wave type force. That being said, you have to attack such a group in a very intelligent way. First off, delay as much as possible. Use lurks to keep the tanks in front, when SCI's stray to far pick it off with scourges or at least be mindful. Have your forces positioned in such a way that they can react the second he gets lazy with the tanks. If he leaves them unsieged and just pushed at your lurks unburrow them get them in the tank's faces and burrow with mass lings coming (or hydra) to circle and tear. The delay tactic is so that you can mass more and more. Positioning vs the army you describe is ESSENTIAL. This is the most standard T army these days and it would be very easy for you to practice vs. Grab a T partner and just play standard games vs him. Make sure you secure 3-4 geysers by this time and make him mindful of his SCI vessels. Do what I instructed and you should be ok. If you stave off this force you need to have hive for the end game. In addition, counter are a nice thing to try. More risky but with that risk comes the risk of winning as well. Worth a shot. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 17:53 RtS)Night[Mare wrote: i need some PvZ advice: what is the best course of action for a protoss vs masss lings? ex. you take expo and zergs takes a min only. Zerg goes double evo so you cant use the +1 effectively against him, and makes a spire to make scourge (prevent drops). Zerg proceed to add +2 hatch and goes pure ling while teching to hive. Since he is not wasting any gas, only mineral, he'll have a ton of gas, make a round of ultras and gg me. i tried to go zeal/archon, but even i i slaughter great ling numbers, they're just too much and end up being contained. I also have to choose between attacking and expoing, because if i chose to do both, my new expansion will be canceled due to 8-10 ling there, just waiting to kill it. if i move my army to protect my expo (of course , before i go cannons) zerg takes a gas expo and turtles it, + having all his lings to either counter my main, or just waiting to contain. i thought of sair/dt, but its too gas intensive and if spoted, a switch to hydra will kill me. Do i need better storming? ty The Z you just described is essentially my style as well  I think the strongest counter is fairly similar to what Zulu just said, get archons than push for your own mineral nat. From there gain mid control with archon / zeal and 2 forge with templar. Smart storming and proper zealot positioning coupled with archons can win you the game. Also a very smart mentality to insitute vs a Z like that is DT drops (if scourge you need to be sneaky or fast). Another addition needed to be made is including reavers in your army. Great for expo defense but even better behind the zealot/archon force. In my opinion, that mix is the best vs mass melee army from Z. | ||
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Ash
Malaysia1978 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
What is your logic behind countering and more importantly gaining back advantage. When say you had one of your expos killed so it's only 2 base vs 3 base protoss, is your first instinct to attack protoss's natural or new expo or wherever his army is not with everything you have then build drones when you succeed and turtle more when you don't? Why do your counters seem to work so often? Versus reaver/sair when do you decide to attack the toss's natural? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 19:52 Ash wrote: overlords often stick together when you try to make a big drop and it gives opponents a lot of time to retreat back, do you know how do pros drop their units in the overlords? This is actually one of the few things in bw I have no idea of. Testie tried to teach me once but to no avail. If anyone can explain this or link an explanation that'd help this thread greatly. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 07 2007 19:52 zulu_nation8 wrote: dts are very very very very very very very very very annoying for a zergling zerg because they are hard to kill and you have to have overlord speed before hive usually and that delays your hive. What is your logic behind countering and more importantly gaining back advantage. When say you had one of your expos killed so it's only 2 base vs 3 base protoss, is your first instinct to attack protoss's natural or new expo or wherever his army is not with everything you have then build drones when you succeed and turtle more when you don't? Why do your counters seem to work so often? Versus reaver/sair when do you decide to attack the toss's natural? 1. Countering for me is a way of gaining an advantage when you need it. Obviously if you are ahead in the game you don't need this since you can smash them head on. If you are behind however attacking unexpectadly after they move out could be the only way back into the game. If I counter with lurkers I like to leave a few behind in hopes of hitting marched units without detection. Countering is risky though because if you dont NEED to do it it can swing the advantage for them ie a good defense or poor counter. 2. If I lose an expo zvp and he has a macro advantage my first thought is to gain the edge back. I dont typically wait, i usually put myself in the position to trade UP as oppose to equally. If they get my 3rd nat I go for their main or natural expansion disconnecting the main from the farther nat, for easier pickings later. If this is not possible and you lose your eco advantage I usually seek for a way to gain it back like countering after the next attack or drops (best response imo). 3. My counters work well because I have been doing it for years and naturally slide myself into the situation where I can trade UP with a counter or do te little things that make a counter much better like leaving behind lurks or targetingimportant production buildings (or tech). I also do alot to hide counters which makes the chance of them working much more plausible. 4. Typically you should almost never attack a sair/reaver P nat. You hold them to that Nat and MAYBE 1 island (or other nat) and starve them. Remake your dead expos and keep picking off sairs/shuttles with your massive +1 hydra army. If the chance opens up (like you scout no reavers at the nat) go for a frontal and end it like you see in so many replays these days. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On February 07 2007 20:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This is actually one of the few things in bw I have no idea of. Testie tried to teach me once but to no avail. If anyone can explain this or link an explanation that'd help this thread greatly. There is a really professional hard way to do it that involves having a "center of gravity" and stuff, but I'll teach you two easy ways: 1) Click unload all and target the minimap. Less precise, but perfect spread. 2) Do the normal drop, but then select half of your lords and drop again nearby, then start selecting individual lords and have them unload all upon themselves. They'll do a moving drop. The hard way to do it: Group your overlords so that they are in some sort of geometric formation (square, circle, triangle, etc.). Move them towards an opponent's base. Make sure the center of your formation is aligned with where you want to drop, and click unload all on that point. Hopefully, your units will unload all at once. If not, your formation will break and you'll do a regular one by one retard drop... which is why I usually use the minimap instead. I've been thinking about doing it by having a group of full overlords going towards an opponent's base selected with an overlord you have at your base (july muta harass style) and then unloading all upon a certain spot. I think it would work in much the same way that the center of gravity thing would, but I haven't tested it yet. I'll get back to you on that. | ||
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