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[I] Queens in the mid-late game ZvX

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16981 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-23 03:51:21
October 23 2008 00:44 GMT
#1
Because, no, I didn't make this thread two years ago (shifty eyes). I honestly feel that this topic needs discussing, but we need a new thread to do it in.

Anyway, I think they're an unappreciated unit that really doesn't get as much airtime as it should. They're probably one of the most cost effective Zerg units, and you only need to incorporate a few into your army to get a high utility from them, not to mention you'll already be building a Queen's Nest on your way to more standard Hive tech. Spells aren't that expensive either. Hell, if your queen got irradiated, just be glad it was your cheap 100/100 queen instead of your 50/150 Defiler or Lurker, etc. I honestly feel Queens are like the Defilers of 2004, in that no one really appreciated them and thought they were a trash unit (when in reality they kick massive ass).

Ensnare is probably the most useful Queen spell. It slows both movement speed and attack rate for units, often bringing fast-attacking units (Stimmed Marines are the most prominent example) down to a more managable speed. It also reduces movement speed, and makes flanking a whole lot easier. I believe Ensnare would be very effective in match ups such as ZvP, as Zealots would be slowed, Dragoons would hardly attack at all, and Archons would be pretty much useless with their Reaver-like speed and horrendously slow attack rate under Ensnare. Ensnare can also be used in ZvZ battles, and I believe that a Queen is worth the cost of a few mutas if you get an Ensnare on a Mutalisk clump. It's obviously not wise to just rush Queens, but I think eventually they'd be pretty useful in ZvZ as well.

Ensnare'd be useful when engaging the enemy to reduce enemy aggregate DPS. By slowing attack speed, if you integrate enemy damage with respect to time, you'll find that it's greatly reduced. Additionally, the fact that it slows down units pretty much prevents escape, as well as make it exceedingly difficult for the enemy to gain a positional advantage over you during your fight. An example would be Hydras vs. a Zealot-heavy army. Their Zealots won't be able to surround you effectively, and besides that, you won't be taking as much damage anyway thanks to the reduced DPS. Another example in TvZ (to relate this to a current topic, TvZ Valks), if you Ensnare the Valkyrie clump, you can easily eliminate them with Hydras without much fear of them flying away, thus ensuring they lost more than you did (Overlords vs. Valkyries).

I'm going to quote eriador here:

On August 29 2006 15:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
it's really, really great vs sair/reaver (and carriers) but once again it only really helps if you have enough units to beat his units. if he can fight it out then it's not a big deal. but if you don't have ensnare and you manage to flank his corsairs with mutas and he doesnt have enough sairs to beat them, normally he can just retreat to cannons and try again later and you gained nothing but with ensnare you can actually kill all his units then. vs sair reaver it can often be gamedeciding :O



The most effective use of Parasite is in its "soft power" ability. What I mean by that is that it basically shuts down the use of whatever unit it's targeting. If, say, you target an expensive like an Archon, you either force it to show you the unit composition of its army through its vision, or force the Protoss to basically abandon the unit so that it doesn't show much. If, say, he just puts it in a corner somewhere so he doesn't show his tech, it can't be used against you. And if he decides to actually use it, you get to see his army and some positions of it, even if he brings it in at the last moment. Either way, you either get an advantage in information or an relative advantage in power (as compared to if the Archon had not been parasitized). Additionally, Parasite can be used on other "important" units such as Shuttles or Science Vessels. Certainly, those units are used often by the enemy, and if he's forced to just abandon that unit somewhere so he doesn't reveal the location of the impending Reaver drop or Irradiate raid, you'll have countered the utility of that unit, effectively costing him whatever the unit cost was for that unit.

I'll also mention the cliched uses of Parasite. Yes, you can parasite creatures and enemy workers. It's actually not as effective as going after a high-value enemy target. They'll probably suicide the worker (though yes, you'll have seen some buildings and such), and you don't have control over any critters. That's why I advocate using it on targets such as Science Vessels/High Templar/etc.

Spawn Broodling, though, is very expensive energy-wise, and probably isn't as efficient as the other two spells. But still, it could be used for example, against a Terran by forcing Tank splash onto the Broodlings you create, thus hurting his own units if they're clumped. But I think the only reason Broodling could potentially be used is in a long stalemate, by periodically picking off important units. Still, Broodling pays for itself after a few uses, especially if you target, say, Tanks, or High Templar. Additionally, if you get rid of some "core" units like that, you'll delay the enemy because his army will be significantly weaker . You could choose to engage then with his strategic tools taken away. Seriously. Fighting a Templarless army ZvP is significantly easier, and if you have some extra queens, he'll basically have no way to counter Ensnare. But all in all, at 150 energy, Spawn Broodling is very expensive.

Just for the hell of it, this is what eriador has to say about Infest:

On August 29 2006 15:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
and infest is fucking AWESOME. especially if people don't know you're the kind of guy who likes to infest. (eventually against players I knew I only really got to infest command centres I would otherwise have killed cause every time a cc started burning they immediately started repairing just cause it was me ) but when I played vs unknown nonkoreans I could like come in with a queen 2 minutes after a battle and take the cc cause they just didn't care about it having 600 hp
but I won a lot of games with infest as well


Some final words by eriador:

On August 29 2006 15:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I always thought using queens was easy as hell
easiest spellcaster in the game imo
ensnare STICKS to whatever unit you throw it at, so unlike storm you don't need to anticipate where the units are moving. you just press e and then left mouseclick on the unit in the middle.
in addition the queen is flying thus you never have to take account for it getting blocked by other units (like defilers can sometimes get when you're trying to swarm. or templars with storm. )
maybe it's hard to keep track of where they are
but I never had that problem as I always hotkeyed queens to 0.

and drowsy is pretty much correct. I played a zvt style of play where queens helped me tremendously. with other styles of play you also benefit greatly later on, but if you're doing a standard 3 hatch muta into lurker ling kind of thing, you actually have more problems spending 400 gas on getting fast queen than I did with my hiverush.

also broodling is almost useless (cept for stalemates pretty much but terran wins that due to irradiate anyway), and you don't need more than 2-3 queens.

and in zvp they're really good if you have lings vs goons and he tries running or you have hydra vs zealot archon and he tries running
if you're up against a zealot goon archon templar force and you don't have enough units to beat the force in the first place, ensnare doesn't help that much.
still enough to spend 300/300 on it though. for sure. but it'll very rarely be gamedeciding. (unlike zvt where I would often win because of ensnare. )

and zvz they're really great in theory but usually there isnt any point in the game where you can spend 400 gas on 2 queens queens nest and ensnare.


Finally, I'd like to open the floor to discussion on Queens being a potential "counter" of sorts to the recent increased popularity of Valkyries + a more mech heavy force. Obviously, Parasite works wonders against Valkyries due to the reasons outlined above, and Ensnare can also really fuck them over since you can pick them off easily once you've sacrificed some Overlords and probably your Queen to get that Ensnare off. But hey, you just hydralisked that Valkyrie clump.

And Chill, this isn't a Queen rush ;D...just throwing it out there
Moderator
onihunter
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States515 Posts
October 23 2008 01:13 GMT
#2
Interesting thoughts, but I only see the queen as useful zvt, with the infest ability. You really don't have the money to invest in queen tech zvz and in zvp queens aren't really that useful against the standard protoss ground army. Sairs would cut them up too, although ensnare might make it easier to kill them with hydras.

Just my two cents.
jaedong forever~
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16981 Posts
October 23 2008 01:16 GMT
#3
Ensnare absolutely murders Zeal/Temp/Archon or any army with Dragoons.

And you're building a hive anyway, why not make a Queen and research Ensnare?
Moderator
capek
Profile Joined September 2008
United States585 Posts
October 23 2008 01:21 GMT
#4
It makes you look like a noob.
Until you own the other guy that is.

I used to build queens when I first got back into BW (before I started watching pro-SC)
Then people made fun of me and I stopped...
Ozarugold
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
2716 Posts
October 23 2008 01:34 GMT
#5
I hate the fact that both Parasite and Ensnare aren't instant spells though. You have to watch the projectile fly across the screen and hit its target. If only they made it instant like Plague and Swarm...

Anyways, Infested Terrans are awesome as well. They can burrow! Plus they take only one spot in an Overlord, meaning a single Overlord can house a total of 8, which means 4000 potential damage.
this is my quote.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16981 Posts
October 23 2008 01:57 GMT
#6
Ensnare tracks its target if you target a unit, so even though it flies across the screen, it'll still hit a spot centered at your targeted unit.
Moderator
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-23 02:03:43
October 23 2008 02:00 GMT
#7
I've always wanted to try out queens - I've read the old thread and was very interested in the discussion. I think that they are extremely useful perma-scout for only 100/100, and I have used them before in ZvP albeit very rarely (and just for parasite). I really would like to try using queens more though, oftentimes their mobility can be better than using slow, fragile defilers and can get to the fight faster and support. Several inherent benefits exist as well, they cost less and aren't as high priority to target as a defiler is, giving you more $$$ to get other crucial units than constantly reproducing those lost defilers.

I'm very curious to see how queens can work in ZvT as well, for a timing mutaling rush with +1 and ensnare, if you can hit just before the science vessel you can probably devastate any MnM army with very few casualties (whereas without ensnare, you will kill them but lose many units). I think for ZvP the use is decreased, but is still great.

Ensnare really decreases DPS soooo much and is a very noticeable difference on stimmed marines (afaik they stimmed+ensnared rines fire at same rate as unstimmed marines?) That can make a huge difference in battles and really help a lot. In stark contrast you've got the immobile defiler that can cast two VERY powerful spells, yet enemies can run from dark swarm with ease unless you have them cornered. Ensnare forces their hand, to attack or flee (and if they run, they will run slowly and get surrounded). Another benefit is that with the extra mobility, you can quickly ensnare when drops are unloaded to ensure your units have time to get their and lessen the damage the enemy can do. I think ensnare can be better than defilers in several aspects, so I'd like to test this in my games sometime.

Pros:
  • Cheap perma scout
  • Ensnare is EXTREMELY good and cheap
  • Queens are mobile and don't die as much - you won't have to replace them as much as defilers

Cons:
  • Ensnare requires an upgrade
  • Not as useful as defilers in some situations
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
R3condite
Profile Joined August 2008
Korea (South)1541 Posts
October 23 2008 02:59 GMT
#8
i think if zerg players started using queens more then ter players will start upgrading the restore ability for meds...

i mean i think it's a good idea but i don't think it's gonna get wise spread (mainly because ensnare is where it's at and u need to upgrade to use that)
ggyo...
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
October 23 2008 03:00 GMT
#9
I want to try this but I don't think I could hack it with my ~150-170APM. I'll give it a shot but I hope someone better tries as well.
Choros
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia530 Posts
October 23 2008 03:07 GMT
#10
I have completely dominated in ZvZ using mass queen. Only worked because he didn't go Mutalisk which makes it irrelevant in practice but I used mass broodling to kill drones and to slaughter lurkers.
I also think Broodling can be effective ZvT by killing a couple scvs and the broodlings then create additional harassment.

Ensnare has got to be the best spell though, especially if you are going lurker against Terran who rely on the speed of their marines to micro effectively it could seriously screw with their micro, throw them off, and generate additional casualties for them. Ensnare vessels + scourge might be a decent combo too.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16981 Posts
October 23 2008 03:12 GMT
#11
Honestly, in ZvZ, I think Ensnare would be more useful in those large Mutalisk fights. I'd rather have, say, 16 Mutalisks and a Queen with Ensnare than 20 Mutalisks. The difference in DPS more than makes up for it (attack speed of enemy Mutalisks is drastically reduced).

That being said, I don't think mass Queens is that effective, mainly since Broodling is so expensive. Still having a few Queens on hand for Parasite/Ensnare can be very useful.
Moderator
Choros
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia530 Posts
October 23 2008 03:16 GMT
#12
On October 23 2008 12:12 Empyrean wrote:
Honestly, in ZvZ, I think Ensnare would be more useful in those large Mutalisk fights. I'd rather have, say, 16 Mutalisks and a Queen with Ensnare than 20 Mutalisks. The difference in DPS more than makes up for it (attack speed of enemy Mutalisks is drastically reduced).

That being said, I don't think mass Queens is that effective, mainly since Broodling is so expensive. Still having a few Queens on hand for Parasite/Ensnare can be very useful.

You could seriously rape mutalisk with ensnare + scourge you would think?
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-23 03:26:15
October 23 2008 03:25 GMT
#13
On October 23 2008 10:34 Ozarugold wrote:
I hate the fact that both Parasite and Ensnare aren't instant spells though. You have to watch the projectile fly across the screen and hit its target. If only they made it instant like Plague and Swarm...

Anyways, Infested Terrans are awesome as well. They can burrow! Plus they take only one spot in an Overlord, meaning a single Overlord can house a total of 8, which means 4000 potential damage.


You forget the splash... We're talking possibly over 9000 damage! *ahem*

Maybe zergling bomb their tanks, then drop an IT or two. Or, better yet, Infested Terran Doom Drops!
Or, best of all, a queen and an ovie with two ITs. Drop them in the mineral line so that you get as many SCVs as possible while hitting their CC. Infest CC. Build more ITs. Repeat.
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
DeepGreen
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States175 Posts
October 23 2008 03:31 GMT
#14
One big difference between Queens and Defilers is that with consume, Defilers are basically guaranteed to get a spellcast off. If your queen gets irradiated before energy, she's a waste. Admittedly though, seems like ensnare vs SK Terran could be amazing.
So I told him your car was like that when I got here and as for your grandmother she shouldnt have mouthed off like that
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16981 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-23 03:41:02
October 23 2008 03:40 GMT
#15
On October 23 2008 12:25 Tooplark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2008 10:34 Ozarugold wrote:
I hate the fact that both Parasite and Ensnare aren't instant spells though. You have to watch the projectile fly across the screen and hit its target. If only they made it instant like Plague and Swarm...

Anyways, Infested Terrans are awesome as well. They can burrow! Plus they take only one spot in an Overlord, meaning a single Overlord can house a total of 8, which means 4000 potential damage.


You forget the splash... We're talking possibly over 9000 damage! *ahem*

Maybe zergling bomb their tanks, then drop an IT or two. Or, better yet, Infested Terran Doom Drops!
Or, best of all, a queen and an ovie with two ITs. Drop them in the mineral line so that you get as many SCVs as possible while hitting their CC. Infest CC. Build more ITs. Repeat.


Honestly, Infested Terrans aren't feasible. Eri was just talking about infesting damaged CCs just to piss off the Terran. They'd probably destroy your Infested CC before you could produce any Infested Terrans anyway :/

EDIT: Any skilled Zergs care to comment? I'm looking at you, eri! :D
Moderator
Luddite
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2315 Posts
October 23 2008 03:53 GMT
#16
It's a lot of fun using ensnare on big groups of corsairs- you can really do some damage to them then with hydras.
Can't believe I'm still here playing this same game
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
October 23 2008 03:57 GMT
#17
Queens will only be used once Boxer starts playing zerg

I like the theory of ensnare vs sk terran. Where are you going vessels??? Scourges wants you!!
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 23 2008 04:06 GMT
#18
On October 23 2008 12:31 DeepGreen wrote:
One big difference between Queens and Defilers is that with consume, Defilers are basically guaranteed to get a spellcast off. If your queen gets irradiated before energy, she's a waste. Admittedly though, seems like ensnare vs SK Terran could be amazing.

Mmmm idk about that, if they terran has a vessel cloud can't he just as easily irradiate your queens are you can parasite his units? Since his irr > your queens he will eventually have more vessels than your queens and can continue on with his irradiate on defilers and rape the lurkerling. Of course there is no harm in having queens but if you have a standard 3 gas against an SK terran idk if you have all the gas for lurkers, scourges, queens, upgrades, hydralisks, and probably ultras and/or defilers.
I could see queens working alright in ZvZ and ZvP how you mentioned but ZvT with queens sounds like it would be a little rough. It seems to me like fool-proof plan such "Why don't we just nuke him!!1!1"
+ Show Spoiler +
Of course not that far-fetched but just my thoughts...
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
October 23 2008 04:16 GMT
#19
This time last year we all thought Valks were trash. Maybe this time next year Queens will see airtime
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
inlagdsil
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada957 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-23 04:25:37
October 23 2008 04:19 GMT
#20
Ensnare is awesome in combination with hydras against corsairs. It also reveals cloaked units. In other words, queens can be great against sair/DT!
I never use them against T, but I suppose parasiting vessels could be a major pain in the ass.
They are underused because the pros don't incorporate them into their strategies, but in reality at our level of play they can be game winners.

EDIT I'm not saying to make a ton of queens, but even just 2 or 3 in a whole game can be cost effective and lethal.
EDIT2: Ensnare makes dragoon micro impossible. It is also good against drops, as you can slow down the dropships/shuttles while scourge are under way, and if units are dropped you can slow their progress while your reinforcements arrive.
There is nothing cuter than a zergling when it has just started taking crack
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