[I] Queens in the mid-late game ZvX - Page 2

On October 23 2008 13:16 Plexa wrote:
This time last year we all thought Valks were trash. Maybe this time next year Queens will see airtime

On October 23 2008 09:44 Empyrean wrote:
Because, no, I didn't make this thread two years ago (shifty eyes). I honestly feel that this topic needs discussing, but we need a new thread to do it in.

Anyway, I think they're an unappreciated unit that really doesn't get as much airtime as it should. They're probably one of the most cost effective Zerg units, and you only need to incorporate a few into your army to get a high utility from them, not to mention you'll already be building a Queen's Nest on your way to more standard Hive tech. Spells aren't that expensive either. Hell, if your queen got irradiated, just be glad it was your cheap 100/100 queen instead of your 50/150 Defiler or Lurker, etc. I honestly feel Queens are like the Defilers of 2004, in that no one really appreciated them and thought they were a trash unit (when in reality they kick massive ass).

Ensnare is probably the most useful Queen spell. It slows both movement speed and attack rate for units, often bringing fast-attacking units (Stimmed Marines are the most prominent example) down to a more managable speed. It also reduces movement speed, and makes flanking a whole lot easier. I believe Ensnare would be very effective in match ups such as ZvP, as Zealots would be slowed, Dragoons would hardly attack at all, and Archons would be pretty much useless with their Reaver-like speed and horrendously slow attack rate under Ensnare. Ensnare can also be used in ZvZ battles, and I believe that a Queen is worth the cost of a few mutas if you get an Ensnare on a Mutalisk clump. It's obviously not wise to just rush Queens, but I think eventually they'd be pretty useful in ZvZ as well.

Ensnare'd be useful when engaging the enemy to reduce enemy aggregate DPS. By slowing attack speed, if you integrate enemy damage with respect to time, you'll find that it's greatly reduced. Additionally, the fact that it slows down units pretty much prevents escape, as well as make it exceedingly difficult for the enemy to gain a positional advantage over you during your fight. An example would be Hydras vs. a Zealot-heavy army. Their Zealots won't be able to surround you effectively, and besides that, you won't be taking as much damage anyway thanks to the reduced DPS. Another example in TvZ (to relate this to a current topic, TvZ Valks), if you Ensnare the Valkyrie clump, you can easily eliminate them with Hydras without much fear of them flying away, thus ensuring they lost more than you did (Overlords vs. Valkyries).

I'm going to quote eriador here:




The most effective use of Parasite is in its "soft power" ability. What I mean by that is that it basically shuts down the use of whatever unit it's targeting. If, say, you target an expensive like an Archon, you either force it to show you the unit composition of its army through its vision, or force the Protoss to basically abandon the unit so that it doesn't show much. If, say, he just puts it in a corner somewhere so he doesn't show his tech, it can't be used against you. And if he decides to actually use it, you get to see his army and some positions of it, even if he brings it in at the last moment. Either way, you either get an advantage in information or an relative advantage in power (as compared to if the Archon had not been parasitized). Additionally, Parasite can be used on other "important" units such as Shuttles or Science Vessels. Certainly, those units are used often by the enemy, and if he's forced to just abandon that unit somewhere so he doesn't reveal the location of the impending Reaver drop or Irradiate raid, you'll have countered the utility of that unit, effectively costing him whatever the unit cost was for that unit.

I'll also mention the cliched uses of Parasite. Yes, you can parasite creatures and enemy workers. It's actually not as effective as going after a high-value enemy target. They'll probably suicide the worker (though yes, you'll have seen some buildings and such), and you don't have control over any critters. That's why I advocate using it on targets such as Science Vessels/High Templar/etc.

Spawn Broodling, though, is very expensive energy-wise, and probably isn't as efficient as the other two spells. But still, it could be used for example, against a Terran by forcing Tank splash onto the Broodlings you create, thus hurting his own units if they're clumped. But I think the only reason Broodling could potentially be used is in a long stalemate, by periodically picking off important units. Still, Broodling pays for itself after a few uses, especially if you target, say, Tanks, or High Templar. Additionally, if you get rid of some "core" units like that, you'll delay the enemy because his army will be significantly weaker . You could choose to engage then with his strategic tools taken away. Seriously. Fighting a Templarless army ZvP is significantly easier, and if you have some extra queens, he'll basically have no way to counter Ensnare. But all in all, at 150 energy, Spawn Broodling is very expensive.

Just for the hell of it, this is what eriador has to say about Infest:



Some final words by eriador:



Finally, I'd like to open the floor to discussion on Queens being a potential "counter" of sorts to the recent increased popularity of Valkyries + a more mech heavy force. Obviously, Parasite works wonders against Valkyries due to the reasons outlined above, and Ensnare can also really fuck them over since you can pick them off easily once you've sacrificed some Overlords and probably your Queen to get that Ensnare off. But hey, you just hydralisked that Valkyrie clump.

And Chill, this isn't a Queen rush ;D...just throwing it out there

On October 23 2008 20:33 GinNtoniC wrote:
I'm going to write a more in-depth response later today, but I just want to start by saying what I said the last time this was up for discussion:

DO NOT underestimate the power of parasiting neutral critters. I once parasited one of those kakaru things on bluestorm and caught two dropships on the way to a back-drop and the fact he had expanded to his 4th when it flew in that direction. No one suspects the friggin critter.

On October 23 2008 19:33 KlaCkoN wrote:
Assuming you don't get nest until you are getting hive anyway and that you hatch queens the second nest finishes:
You will cast a grand total of 1 ensnare before consume is done, and 1 more right as it finishes.
Plauge/darkswarm are always better spells to cast in combat.

This means that unless you are fast enough to play with defilers and still have apm to spare (lol??) queens are _detracting_ from your game.

_Unless_ of course you are playing a style where those 1-2 ensnares really make a difference. Eris two base defiler rush come to mind. He used that ensnare to push the terrans mm blob back so that his swarm push could start closer to the terran.

***Stupid Theorycrafting***
Perhaps you could open like 3 hatch lurkers, add nest the second lair finishes. When nest finishes build 3 queens and hide them in a corner. Start hive.
Use lurkers to push the t blob back to his nat. Don't lose unnecessary lurkers!! you aren't expanding anyway so you are in no hurry. Rally defilers to your lurker push. When consume finishes your queens will have 150+ energy and t will probably have like 3-4 tanks and 0-1 vessel.
Broodling those tanks and swarmpush into his main should be easy.
Lol?

On October 23 2008 21:42 d(O.o)a wrote:



When I see critters I click them until nuke.

On October 23 2008 23:11 Fen wrote:
I went through a period where I tried to use queens to broodling HT. If each queen you make can snipe just 1 templar, they pay for themselves. And of course removing storm from a protoss attack can mean a BIIG thing.

However I didnt have the APM to really make it a legitament strategy

On October 23 2008 23:23 village_idiot wrote:

You parasited the ball and sniped the templars before a battle? Pretty hard to broodling templars in battle since queens are so slow and you got other things to do.

On October 23 2008 22:24 Empyrean wrote:


Only happens in single player ;D

On October 24 2008 00:17 DarkSaieden wrote:
2 Hatch hydra/lurker could work really against it. micro against mines and vults will be tough tho but if you hold them off, it MIGHT be possible to break the wall, tho i dont know what the right timing for getting comsat or turrets is. if they are delayed enough, you could burrow a lurker or two right at the wall and hold off vults with hydra or hydra/ling.

the other option is to try get scourge quick enough to take out the dropship but that would have to be pretty much have to be 1-base