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On October 24 2008 01:31 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 00:17 DarkSaieden wrote:
2 Hatch hydra/lurker could work really against it. micro against mines and vults will be tough tho but if you hold them off, it MIGHT be possible to break the wall, tho i dont know what the right timing for getting comsat or turrets is. if they are delayed enough, you could burrow a lurker or two right at the wall and hold off vults with hydra or hydra/ling.
the other option is to try get scourge quick enough to take out the dropship but that would have to be pretty much have to be 1-base Wrong thread?
he was probably responding to valk (fantasy build) usage that op asked.
On October 23 2008 19:33 KlaCkoN wrote:
***Stupid Theorycrafting***
Perhaps you could open like 3 hatch lurkers, add nest the second lair finishes. When nest finishes build 3 queens and hide them in a corner. Start hive.
Use lurkers to push the t blob back to his nat. Don't lose unnecessary lurkers!! you aren't expanding anyway so you are in no hurry. Rally defilers to your lurker push. When consume finishes your queens will have 150+ energy and t will probably have like 3-4 tanks and 0-1 vessel.
Broodling those tanks and swarmpush into his main should be easy.
Lol?
that actually sounds pretty good.
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On October 23 2008 23:23 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2008 23:11 Fen wrote:
I went through a period where I tried to use queens to broodling HT. If each queen you make can snipe just 1 templar, they pay for themselves. And of course removing storm from a protoss attack can mean a BIIG thing.
However I didnt have the APM to really make it a legitament strategy You parasited the ball and sniped the templars before a battle? Pretty hard to broodling templars in battle since queens are so slow and you got other things to do.
How are queens slow?
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16981 Posts
On October 24 2008 10:18 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2008 23:23 village_idiot wrote:On October 23 2008 23:11 Fen wrote:
I went through a period where I tried to use queens to broodling HT. If each queen you make can snipe just 1 templar, they pay for themselves. And of course removing storm from a protoss attack can mean a BIIG thing.
However I didnt have the APM to really make it a legitament strategy You parasited the ball and sniped the templars before a battle? Pretty hard to broodling templars in battle since queens are so slow and you got other things to do. How are queens slow?
Seriously, they're one of the fastest units in the game and they're not hampered mobility-wise by other units since they're flying.
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I used queens once in a ZvZ that was pretty stalemate, ensnared the group of mutas and pretty much killed most of them as they ran away before it wore off. It was awesome.
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i like to parasite observers and science vessels
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On October 24 2008 13:22 Not_Computer wrote:
i like to parasite observers and science vessels
whats cool about ensnaring+parasiting enemy detectors is, you get thier detection abilities along with sight. 
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On October 24 2008 11:17 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 10:18 Durak wrote:On October 23 2008 23:23 village_idiot wrote:On October 23 2008 23:11 Fen wrote:
I went through a period where I tried to use queens to broodling HT. If each queen you make can snipe just 1 templar, they pay for themselves. And of course removing storm from a protoss attack can mean a BIIG thing.
However I didnt have the APM to really make it a legitament strategy You parasited the ball and sniped the templars before a battle? Pretty hard to broodling templars in battle since queens are so slow and you got other things to do. How are queens slow? Seriously, they're one of the fastest units in the game and they're not hampered mobility-wise by other units since they're flying.
Queens are fast when moving, but their casting animation is long as all hell.
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Norway28648 Posts
broodling as a spell is hurt pretty badly by their casting animation
like, with ensnare, if you throw ensnare and the queen dies before ensnare lands, ensnare still works
if you broodling something but the queen dies after broodling is thrown but before broodling lands (in zvt this actually happens a pretty significant amount of time, queens melt to focused marine fire and tanks are usually a little behind) then the broodling doesnt work.. I seriously think like one out of three broodling attempts end up failing because the queen dies after throwing the spell. zvp, it can be good, especially in sort of lock-downed situations where neither player is really capable of attacking the other, but zvt you really are better off just not researching broodling.
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On October 24 2008 17:35 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 13:22 Not_Computer wrote:
i like to parasite observers and science vessels whats cool about parasiting enemy detectors is, you get thier detection abilities along with sight.
-----------------
Dark Archons win almost all late game stalemates!!!
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On October 24 2008 21:10 XtaC_hiryu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 17:35 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:On October 24 2008 13:22 Not_Computer wrote:
i like to parasite observers and science vessels whats cool about parasiting enemy detectors is, you get thier detection abilities along with sight. ----------------- Dark Archons win almost all late game stalemates!!!
Dark archons are imba late-game vs z =\ ppl are just too lazy to use them.
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On October 24 2008 20:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
broodling as a spell is hurt pretty badly by their casting animation
like, with ensnare, if you throw ensnare and the queen dies before ensnare lands, ensnare still works
if you broodling something but the queen dies after broodling is thrown but before broodling lands (in zvt this actually happens a pretty significant amount of time, queens melt to focused marine fire and tanks are usually a little behind) then the broodling doesnt work.. I seriously think like one out of three broodling attempts end up failing because the queen dies after throwing the spell. zvp, it can be good, especially in sort of lock-downed situations where neither player is really capable of attacking the other, but zvt you really are better off just not researching broodling.
I agree. I don't think I'd ever use broodling. Maybe if I could work out a timing with 2/3 hatch lurker to have a couple when HTs come out to help the contain. I seriously doubt you could get them early enough though.
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I think parasiting Kakarus on twilight maps can be useful and very hard to notice. It is just a bit too random.
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Jaedong vs Free spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Given frees massive archoon + reaver blob, wouldt queens + broodling be a good option to reduse the archoon numbers so they dont become such a critical mass? But then again he would have to stall for the queens to get energy so...
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On October 24 2008 23:04 Patrio wrote:Jaedong vs Free spoiler + Show Spoiler +Given frees massive archoon + reaver blob, wouldt queens + broodling be a good option to reduse the archoon numbers so they dont become such a critical mass? But then again he would have to stall for the queens to get energy so...
Can't broodling archons.
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Norway28648 Posts
you cant broodling archons nor reavers
if you could then zergs should build like 12 queens every single zvp =p
queens have one really, really sweet lategame use zvp, and that is used in conjunction with dark swarm against mass archon. thats actually a pretty key thing about queens ; they're like twice as good used together with defilers. if you have to pick one, you're almost always better off with defiler (only exception is vs corsairs), but normally you want to use queens in addition to defilers, as swarm becomes significantly harder / more impossible to defend against. this sounds really hard in theory, but the fact is, if you get used to using queens and you have them hotkeyed on 0 or whatever, then it's not difficult at all, as you can easily throw the ensnare before you send in the rest of your units, unlike defilers you dont need to worry about them being killed by tank fire or whatever.
you do need to sacrifice one hotkey though. I think using queens efficiently without hotkeying them on an individual hotkey is virtually impossible.
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Imo, queens are only good in theory... In practice, its just too damn hard to use them, even for a progamer. Zerg is already the race which requires the most multitasking and throwing in queens just makes things even harder. If you still can expand like a madman and manage your drones, build up your tech and macro hard, while keeping scouts all over the map to see his army movements and stuff and still use queens effectively, hats off to you! I doubt anyone other than JD himself would be able to pull it off though and even he has his limits
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On October 24 2008 20:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
broodling as a spell is hurt pretty badly by their casting animation
like, with ensnare, if you throw ensnare and the queen dies before ensnare lands, ensnare still works
if you broodling something but the queen dies after broodling is thrown but before broodling lands (in zvt this actually happens a pretty significant amount of time, queens melt to focused marine fire and tanks are usually a little behind) then the broodling doesnt work.. I seriously think like one out of three broodling attempts end up failing because the queen dies after throwing the spell. zvp, it can be good, especially in sort of lock-downed situations where neither player is really capable of attacking the other, but zvt you really are better off just not researching broodling.
if u ever used a queen. u kno that they cast their spells long range. so its not hard to kill a tank and run away or a templar. so i mean they can be useful.
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On October 24 2008 23:27 Kallepettersen wrote:
Imo, queens are only good in theory... In practice, its just too damn hard to use them, even for a progamer. Zerg is already the race which requires the most multitasking and throwing in queens just makes things even harder. If you still can expand like a madman and manage your drones, build up your tech and macro hard, while keeping scouts all over the map to see his army movements and stuff and still use queens effectively, hats off to you! I doubt anyone other than JD himself would be able to pull it off though and even he has his limits
Yep. You only have limited time and APM, and even as a progamer you need to use that time/APM at maximum efficiency. Using queens/ensnare always sounds great in theory, but in practice you better spend the 1 second you'd need to fiddle around with your queen for building more standard units. Unless you're much better than your opponent, then you obviously can toy around a bit, but if it's a really tough fight, and almost all progamer fights are really tough, then you simply can't stray too far from playing standard because every second of you not playing "the best way" means that you give an advantage to your opponent, and that means you lose the theoretical advantage you gain from using Ensnare anyway (and it's not even guaranteed that your queen will survive or that Ensnare will hit enough units due to your opponent spreading/retreating his units or whatever; and if any of that happens you'll be at a disadvantage right away).
And the multitasking you have to do with using standard units plus defilers plus all the macro work is simply too much even for a 450 APM progamer. You simply can't afford to spend time microing a queen on top of all that. That is the main reason why queens aren't used. As a result, they simply aren't as efficient as other units in practice (only in theory).
It's funny btw that when some Zerg hero gets raped in some game he shouldn't have lost, people always come up with threads like "why not use queens". Last time I've seen threads like this was when Bisu raped Savior. People immediately went "zomfg why not use ensnare vs corsairs!!!!!111".
Like the progamers don't know better what works and what doesn't...
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Norway28648 Posts
On October 24 2008 23:32 gNs.I-Jasa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 20:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
broodling as a spell is hurt pretty badly by their casting animation
like, with ensnare, if you throw ensnare and the queen dies before ensnare lands, ensnare still works
if you broodling something but the queen dies after broodling is thrown but before broodling lands (in zvt this actually happens a pretty significant amount of time, queens melt to focused marine fire and tanks are usually a little behind) then the broodling doesnt work.. I seriously think like one out of three broodling attempts end up failing because the queen dies after throwing the spell. zvp, it can be good, especially in sort of lock-downed situations where neither player is really capable of attacking the other, but zvt you really are better off just not researching broodling. if u ever used a queen. u kno that they cast their spells long range. so its not hard to kill a tank and run away or a templar. so i mean they can be useful.
ive never used a queen but thanks for the help
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16981 Posts
On October 24 2008 23:32 gNs.I-Jasa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 20:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
broodling as a spell is hurt pretty badly by their casting animation
like, with ensnare, if you throw ensnare and the queen dies before ensnare lands, ensnare still works
if you broodling something but the queen dies after broodling is thrown but before broodling lands (in zvt this actually happens a pretty significant amount of time, queens melt to focused marine fire and tanks are usually a little behind) then the broodling doesnt work.. I seriously think like one out of three broodling attempts end up failing because the queen dies after throwing the spell. zvp, it can be good, especially in sort of lock-downed situations where neither player is really capable of attacking the other, but zvt you really are better off just not researching broodling. if u ever used a queen. u kno that they cast their spells long range. so its not hard to kill a tank and run away or a templar. so i mean they can be useful.
Good thing he isn't the Zerg player most known for incorporating Queens into his play.
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EPT
