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On October 27 2008 01:02 Misrah wrote:
As for ensnare, and queens- One Queen costs 100/100 You can easily make 2 or 3 right off the bat, and once ensnare is complete get queen energy. Fully charged with mana the queen can fire 2 consecutive ensnares, and only has to wait a short 50 mana before being able to fire 3.
Isn't it even slightly better than this? Been a while since I played, but thought a fully charged queen could do the following:
With queen energy upgrade: 3 ensnares, wait 50 mana for 4th.
Without queen energy: 2 ensnares, wait 25 mana for 3rd.
(though I could be remembering this wrong)
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A few questions
What to do with mass tanks?
Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
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Interesting thoughts.
I would really welcome a conservative ZvT alternative to 3 hatch muta play - i.e., something different to do without beeing cheese.
Still I cannot see a hydraling army (including ensnare) take out a well-sized midgame T ball that has a good number of tanks (don't forget the ball will be larger than usual as T does not need turrets). At least, if the tanks are sieged.
On the other hand, if the ball is on the move however, my noobness thinks you'd have good chances taking it out.
I am really excited to try this build (and probably be crushed abysmally the first 20 times).
A question you have IMO not yet answered: Why upgrade missile attack first in your BO?
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Warning: Theorycrafting ahead
P.S.: A (perhaps stupid) idea for late game: In my experience from fastest map games (*blush*) in an earlier life, I found that guardians complement hydras quite well, especially in cracking heavy defenses.
Now, typcially, guardians are not really used in TvZ, due to irradiate; but your heavy hydralisk presence might make their use safer.
Perhaps you can experiment with that instead of using defiler/ultra for late game.
I am just thinking - compared to classic play, T should problably make more tanks and less vessels vs. your build. In that case, guardians may well be viable.
If the T instead makes a large amount of vessels, you'd probably fare better by mixing in ultras.
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If you can switch to hydraguard it means you already won 10 minutes ago.
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On October 27 2008 22:15 village_idiot wrote:
If you can switch to hydraguard it means you already won 10 minutes ago.
Thats a good point. :-)
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On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote:
A few questions
What to do with mass tanks?
Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
Its just a suggested strat, There is nothing stopping you, or others *cough* chill *cough*, from trying his strat and posting the replays in this thread. If yyou think it sucks, post replays of yourself getting owned while trying to do it. If a bunch of people try it and post replays, it should give a better indication as to whether it is viable or not.
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On October 27 2008 22:51 b0red111 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote:
A few questions
What to do with mass tanks?
Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them? Its just a suggested strat, There is nothing stopping you, or others *cough* chill *cough*, from trying his strat and posting the replays in this thread. If yyou think it sucks, post replays of yourself getting owned while trying to do it. If a bunch of people try it and post replays, it should give a better indication as to whether it is viable or not.
Yeah, let's all do the OP's dirty work.
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On October 27 2008 21:16 oki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2008 01:02 Misrah wrote:
As for ensnare, and queens- One Queen costs 100/100 You can easily make 2 or 3 right off the bat, and once ensnare is complete get queen energy. Fully charged with mana the queen can fire 2 consecutive ensnares, and only has to wait a short 50 mana before being able to fire 3. Isn't it even slightly better than this? Been a while since I played, but thought a fully charged queen could do the following: With queen energy upgrade: 3 ensnares, wait 50 mana for 4th. Without queen energy: 2 ensnares, wait 25 mana for 3rd. (though I could be remembering this wrong)
Yes you are right- I realize now that i wrote my queen mana statistics entirely wrong. Fully upgraded queens get 3 ensnare, and then a 50mana wait for 4th. Thanks for correcting me. 
On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote:
A few questions
What to do with mass tanks?
Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them?
Ok for mass tanks- remember that tanks are very very immobile. Also it's going to take terran some time to mass up critical mass of tanks. If T truly allows me run rampant all over the map during his tank mass- i can just swarm him to death. On the off chance that T does push out with many tanks, tanks fall right into my idea of zerg ground play. Tanks don't move- my army is extremely mobile. I do agree that running head on into a line of tanks will rape your army- tanks become far less effective the more fronts of battle they are faced with. Flanking and pincering/surrounds will become far easier. Also you can always just switch to muta if you scout mass tank. No big deal IMO.
I skip muta harrass because i think that terran should be the ones trying to slow zerg down, and harassing. Because i don't waste any money on harassment- i don't lose anything by not harassing. Instead i can build more drones, hatcheries, or teck.
Also i am sorry about the lack of replays- i promise that i will mass rep once my computer comes back. You are more than welcome to try and play this build and post your replays yourself to try and facilitate the need while i am stuck waiting. 
On October 27 2008 21:45 Metaspace wrote:
Warning: Theorycrafting ahead
P.S.: A (perhaps stupid) idea for late game: In my experience from fastest map games (*blush*) in an earlier life, I found that guardians complement hydras quite well, especially in cracking heavy defenses.
Now, typcially, guardians are not really used in TvZ, due to irradiate; but your heavy hydralisk presence might make their use safer.
Perhaps you can experiment with that instead of using defiler/ultra for late game.
I am just thinking - compared to classic play, T should problably make more tanks and less vessels vs. your build. In that case, guardians may well be viable.
If the T instead makes a large amount of vessels, you'd probably fare better by mixing in ultras.
Hmm this indeed is a good idea I'm not going to lie. It seems like a powerful combination. I would be exited to see you try this idea- and i certainly will try once my computer comes back. However in my opinion i see a few problems with this build. You are going to need muta- thus you cannot afford the time or money to get extra hatcheries. Because you are getting muta (like in a 3 hatch game) your economy will not be as strong, and your production will be lacking. After your muta harrass you will probably be getting hydra- you will need both hydra upgrades (gas) and you would probably have to start upgrading +1 missile and carapace earlier in the game, because if you don't- after you muta harrass their +1 rines are going to shred your muta hydra with +0
Basically mid game- you are going to try and mass muta, and hydra. Muta is a huge gas investment- not to mention that 4 hydra is 100 gas- so even more. IMO i don't think that you would have the production or the gas to facilitate this BO.
UNLESS perhaps if you go with my strat- and get queens earlier and get a really really late spire, and then teck to hive and get guardians, it could work in that respect. Basically what i am seeing here is after the mid game (at least i hope this is what you were thinking) ie. after your queen/ling/hydra mass is sufficient you start tecking to hive and then get a spire and then Greater spire? This could work- the only problem is that this is very very gas intensive. But at this stage in the game- you should have 3 gas (perhaps 4?) I'm just wondering if that is enough to produce muta 100/100, get guardians 50/150 and still afford hydra in sufficient numbers to protect your guardians. I think that queens would still be a must here- to handle those pesky vessels, which will inevitably be going for your guardians. Hmm now that you say it i hope kind of what i have above, this could work well. if you had the gas. Try it out i defiantly think that this build needs to be looked at. great idea!
On October 27 2008 23:42 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2008 22:51 b0red111 wrote:On October 27 2008 21:21 village_idiot wrote:
A few questions
What to do with mass tanks?
Why are you skipping muta harass?
Also, this thread is pretty lame without replays. When are you going to post them? Its just a suggested strat, There is nothing stopping you, or others *cough* chill *cough*, from trying his strat and posting the replays in this thread. If yyou think it sucks, post replays of yourself getting owned while trying to do it. If a bunch of people try it and post replays, it should give a better indication as to whether it is viable or not. Yeah, let's all do the OP's dirty work.
Once again i apologize and hope that you all can forgive me one day.
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On October 27 2008 21:34 Metaspace wrote:
Interesting thoughts.
I would really welcome a conservative ZvT alternative to 3 hatch muta play - i.e., something different to do without beeing cheese.
Still I cannot see a hydraling army (including ensnare) take out a well-sized midgame T ball that has a good number of tanks (don't forget the ball will be larger than usual as T does not need turrets). At least, if the tanks are sieged.
On the other hand, if the ball is on the move however, my noobness thinks you'd have good chances taking it out.
I am really excited to try this build (and probably be crushed abysmally the first 20 times).
A question you have IMO not yet answered: Why upgrade missile attack first in your BO?
Sorry metaspace, forgot to answer this question.
Ok well remember- this build is not meant to engage head on with the ball. I have stated that flanking, surrounding and proper unit placement is the key to this build. It is very critical that you can get your army to have the most surface area of attack against the terran. Ensnare just allows you to obtain proper unit placement much easier.
With your mobility and ensnare, you can make surgical strikes on the terran ball, you can retreat- attack and move in a way the terran ball cannot. Ensnare amplifies this strategic advantage, and i hope that with this increased mobility- i can slowly tear chunks from the ball, instead of trying to squish it straight on.
From the experience i have had using this build, the way i find best to attack the terran ball is the following-
Making surgical strikes into the ball: Ensnare his units rush in, kill tanks- or a small group of marines- and move away. Take little bites.
Remember that this strategic idea is totally different from STANDARD ZVT. Don't try and swallow the ball in one bite- take smaller bites. Your unit production and unit build rate is far greater than terrans. Your units build faster- and can reach the battlefield much quicker than terran. Don't forget this.
Ok hope that helped to answer your question.
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(See 2 posts above)
Yes, the guradian idea was supposed to be a late-game follow up to your build.
The basic rationale here is that guardians are not more expensive or require more tech than ultra.
They would replace ultra + defiler/darkswarm.
On the downside, they do not benefit from ground army upgrades, and they are less mobile.
And you'd get no plague.
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On October 28 2008 00:54 Misrah wrote:Ok hope that helped to answer your question.
One question still remains: why do you get missile upgrade first?
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On October 27 2008 15:06 lgdDante wrote:
2 questions for you misrah
1) Assuming you crush the T's late midgame push with 3-4 tanks 2ish control groups of mnm plus vessel. Expand a few more times? Get ovie speed+drops? I've tried the build a few times and a couple times i've won the first huge battle, then just becasue of lack of experience with the build, not known what to do next.
2) When do you normally take your 3rd, then 4th expo
Well I cannot explain everything, because i don't know exactly what was going on in your game. However what i tend to do after destroying the first t ball- is mass expo. Always try and have an expo going somewhere. Also once you win a battle power drone (for a short while), so you can get more of an advantage economically before switching back to army production. Teck is always good as well. Just remember to never attack the T main until you get ultra and swarm. doing so with this type of unit composition could be ugly- unless you really are just that far ahead lol. basically play safe sit back and relax. Unless terran does something amazing to pull himself back into the game- you win.
Tanking expos is all about you, your game sense and how the game is going. I really can't give you advice on this. Preferably try and get your 3rd (quickly followed by 4th) expo at about the same time in 3 hatch muta.
On October 27 2008 15:15 t_co wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2008 05:54 Misrah wrote:
@ t_co
DPS: Glad you brought this up. It's true that DPS of rines is greater than zerg, and lings tend to "pop" before they get to thier marine targets. But your thinking about standard ZVT play. I will explain to you why i think that with my strat i can overcome this.
1. Hydra: When you have a lurk ling army, the AI of the marine will shoot the lings first because the are "the greatest" threat. I change this up with my hydra because the hydra will engage the marines, causing marine AI to attack the hydra, thus allowing my higher DPS lings to get closer to thier targets.
Even so the ball of rines would still do more net DPS than your hydra/ling combo. Show nested quote +
2. Surface area: Terran Units become less and less cost effective the more fronts of battle they are presented with. I try and exploit this fact because I am using 3 highly mobile units- Zergling, Hydra, and Queens. With increased surface area- I once again am gaining an advantage.
Again this depends on you getting ensnare out fast. What if T hits you before ensnare? Or worse yet, starts a contain at your choke with bunkers and tanks before your queen is out? (Ensnare doesn't work on buildings) Show nested quote +
3. Ensnare: Ensnare lowers the DPS and MOBILITY of any unit- stimmed or not. Ensnare compliments the above two points perfectly, and helps to solidify my thoughts and ideas about this pesudo style ZVT.
Again, what if he hits your pre-ensnare timing window, it will be very easy to do so. Show nested quote +
The DPS rate of marines also has a relationship with HP that you forgot to mention. Medics are what allow marines to go crazy DPS, T's medic count will take some time to increase to the point that you can stim marines as liberaly as you are talking about- with ensnare and aggressive play, i never intend to let this happen. Withought medics, stimmed marines are not scary- especially in ensnare, stim does nothing. Basically, by the time T has enough medics to facilitate liberal use of stim- i with have many ensnares to counter.
As far as Muta- and no muta rush: I deal with this fact simply as a matter of spending. Insted of buying 9-12 muta for 1200/1200 i can get 4 hatch, 24 drones, 16 hydra, or 48 lings. Plus a few upgrades, and considering the fact that my economy is stronger than 3hatch because i now have 4-5 hatch with drones pumping, the increased amount of rax, can be compared to the economy increase i also have gained.
Irradidate- My only question to you is- how long do you think vessles can survive if there are 1345194586 hydra swarming around? Queen are fast- and can run away quite well. It will be more of a challange to irrad a queen than a luker, ultra or defiler.
This strat is not a two base build, on the contrary it's expansive and mineral intensive. With increased produciton facilities earlier in this strat i can facilitate more drones, faster- matching anything terran can throw at me.
As for being manly- ya i think that zerg players should forgo fancy cute shit and just throw wave after wave of units. I embrace zerg mentality, and with this idea and strat, i am trying to find away for thier true mentality to shine.
IT's hard to do that off of 2 base, it would take so long for your eco to get up and running that the T would simply steamroll you. You need to save some replays with a T with decent macro/mechanics because I seriously doubt the viability of this build.
I think that you are over estimating the DPS of ensnared marines. If you stim them (in ensnare) their DPS is the same as normal fire. Not a big deal.
Ensnare comes out fast- we are talking at about the same time as 3 hatch muta. Anytime before that, terran cannot have enough medics to support heavy use of stim. Don't forget that I have VERY early upgrades as well. Either way- if T sends a small excursion force to my base, i can counter with upgraded hydra and ling. There is no way you would be able to box me in my nat. Remember i have more hatcheries and also have an army at this point as well. Unlike standard ZVT im not going to sit behind sunkens and wait for you to box me in.
The pre-ensnare timing window? It is either so small- or so negligible that it doesn't matter. We are talking early game here. T will not have the amount of medics that his marines need to kill me. I have FAST UPGRADES- to help with this problem.
As for your 2 base argument- I stay at two base the same time- if not a shorter amount of time than a standard zerg does in standard zvt. I'm not going to get out macroed. My hatches can produce drones faster that 2CC's. How is terran going to steamroll me? Also I once again apologize about the lack of replays- i will get the up as soon as i can.
On October 28 2008 00:59 Metaspace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2008 00:54 Misrah wrote:Ok hope that helped to answer your question. One question still remains: why do you get missile upgrade first?
Ok sorry i missed this the first time- but basically this build is still a work in progress. At this time my two logical reasonings behind getting +1 missile first are the following:
1. Hydra will be engaging the marines before the lings- so i would like them to have the best chance to inflict damage.
2. This +1 will also give hydra a far better chance of sniping fast tanks.
As of now that is my reasoning, if you think there is a better way to upgrade with a more logical train of thought please let me know.
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On October 28 2008 01:34 Misrah wrote:At this time my two logical reasonings behind getting +1 missile first are the following: 1. Hydra will be engaging the marines before the lings- so i would like them to have the best chance to inflict damage. 2. This +1 will also give hydra a far better chance of sniping fast tanks. As of now that is my reasoning, if you think there is a better way to upgrade with a more logical train of thought please let me know.
ad 1.: You said somewhere that marine AI attacks hydras first (anyone know this for sure?), which makes them the damage soakers, while lings dish out hits (compare to ultra/ling). If that is indeed so, it would be preferable to upgrade carapace, allowing the hydras to soak more; as a bonus, lings will also profit from that.
ad 2.: This is an interesting point, but I wonder if upgrading carapace first will not offset this advantage for the reasons given in 1.
In any case, considering your build focuses on large amounts of units, I think if in any way possible, early double, later even triple evo would strongly benefit this build.
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Intresting idea Im a noob so I probleby never would do this build myself but I do have 3 Q.
1 How much are the marines attacking slowed?
2 Is Medics healing ability also slowed?
3 Does ensnare also affsct tanks.
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On October 28 2008 01:54 sh02hp0869 wrote:
Intresting idea Im a noob so I probleby never would do this build myself but I do have 3 Q.
1 How much are the marines attacking slowed?
2 Is Medics healing ability also slowed?
3 Does ensnare also affsct tanks.
Im also a noob, but i think:
1-It nullifies the effect of stim, stimmed marines fire at a normal rate.
2-No, as far as i know.
3-Yes.
I remember reading an old thread with statistics about the effect of ensare on diferent units, and i think it said that i doesnt slow tanks a lot, but im not sure.
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Ensnare cuts movement speed by half, and lasts for 40seconds. Effects a 4x4 matrix and reduces ROF by 20%?? also i also hear that ensnare ROF effects all units differently so at this point i cannot give you hard data. However it is known that in ensnare a stimmed marine fires at a normal ROF (if the marine is not in ensnare and doesn't use stim) so basically in ensnare you need to stim very liberally just to stay even.
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On October 28 2008 02:09 CrimsonLotus wrote:
I remember reading an old thread with statistics about the effect of ensare on diferent units, and i think it said that i doesnt slow tanks a lot, but im not sure.
Read it here
Edit: According to theory, tank fire is NOT slowed by Ensnare, as a tank really consist of 2 units, one being the tracks, the other the cannon. Ensnare only affects the tracks. I think I read that in the Ensnare experiment analysis linked to the thread given above.
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First of all i want to congratulate you on your writing skills, it was a really entertaining, and maybe even useful read. And i'm glad that some players who arent top tier actually try to use their mind, and not waiting some builds from Korea (or from WCG qualified players) to learn them exactly. Most of the Iccup players do this as far as i see, and sadly some of them are sucsesful with them, without having too much strategic sense.
Well first i smiled when i saw the Q word, but damn, i started to think. Terrans aren't used to Queens so when they saw 1 they wouldn't start spreading their troops or anything like that. (They may think you're a perv, sick bastard who tries to broodling tanks, get sunkens and go for ultras straight (it actually happened to me once, when i played terran)). So you may have an easy cast right on the ball. And hydras arent that bad when you focus on upgrades early on... Really, try it, even without queens sometimes mass hydra works, and it s safe against Fantasy build (apparently 90% of terrans on Iccup thinks they can use it, it's so fun to crush a messed up fantasy-build, altough even more annoying when you loose to one). So as i kept reading and thinking I ended up believing this build might even work. I have to watch your reps tough, and try it myself. The one thing i'm very worried about it's the APM needed for this build. if you got decent macro using 1 or 2 more hatches early on shouldnt be too much trouble, altough using correctly queen and defiler in the same time when you got 4-5 control group of units sounds superhyperultramega hard. Altough i might be wrong, i never tried. (And since it's so wierd it could lead to some insange advantages. Imagine if you hide your den at your forth, the T does not scan it, only your nat and your main, and sees your queen's nest, immediatly goes for wraiths, thinking that u hidden your spire, than he faces some hydras- ok, that's stupid, i wont eve happen)
About your ZvP build, that just might be the thing i was searching for. My ZvP is about getting the toss off guard with massling or masshydra few ling or mass muta into mass hydra. Or outexpanding and curshing with ultras. But is felt that it's not what i'm designed for, i will defineatly try this, or at least a variation of it, which suits me better. This build should be very good on Bluestorm, i sucked really badly on it vs P, my only valid build was the 3 hatch ling.
On October 26 2008 22:29 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i just gotta say - when you are playing Zerg vs Terran, you abbreviate it ZvT (Zerg.. versus... Terran), not TvZ
Thanks, i wanted to say the same, i first believed it's gonna be a modifeid fantasy-build or sg like that what you want to share with us.
So great job, really, upload replays, you got a supporter.
p.s.: sry for my spelling or grammar, english is my 3th language, and i had a taugh weekend so some of my sentences may not have sense at all.
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Dude stop fucking saying "with ought" .. it is WITHOUT
Are you fucking stupid or something boy?
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EPT
