[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 4

On October 28 2008 03:22 911wasaLIE wrote:
Dude stop fucking saying "with ought" .. it is WITHOUT

Are you fucking stupid or something boy?

On October 28 2008 02:57 Geo.Rion wrote:
First of all i want to congratulate you on your writing skills, it was a really entertaining, and maybe even useful read. And i'm glad that some players who arent top tier actually try to use their mind, and not waiting some builds from Korea (or from WCG qualified players) to learn them exactly. Most of the Iccup players do this as far as i see, and sadly some of them are sucsesful with them, without having too much strategic sense.

Well first i smiled when i saw the Q word, but damn, i started to think. Terrans aren't used to Queens so when they saw 1 they wouldn't start spreading their troops or anything like that. (They may think you're a perv, sick bastard who tries to broodling tanks, get sunkens and go for ultras straight (it actually happened to me once, when i played terran)). So you may have an easy cast right on the ball. And hydras arent that bad when you focus on upgrades early on... Really, try it, even without queens sometimes mass hydra works, and it s safe against Fantasy build (apparently 90% of terrans on Iccup thinks they can use it, it's so fun to crush a messed up fantasy-build, altough even more annoying when you loose to one). So as i kept reading and thinking I ended up believing this build might even work. I have to watch your reps tough, and try it myself. The one thing i'm very worried about it's the APM needed for this build. if you got decent macro using 1 or 2 more hatches early on shouldnt be too much trouble, altough using correctly queen and defiler in the same time when you got 4-5 control group of units sounds superhyperultramega hard. Altough i might be wrong, i never tried. (And since it's so wierd it could lead to some insange advantages. Imagine if you hide your den at your forth, the T does not scan it, only your nat and your main, and sees your queen's nest, immediatly goes for wraiths, thinking that u hidden your spire, than he faces some hydras- ok, that's stupid, i wont eve happen)

About your ZvP build, that just might be the thing i was searching for. My ZvP is about getting the toss off guard with massling or masshydra few ling or mass muta into mass hydra. Or outexpanding and curshing with ultras. But is felt that it's not what i'm designed for, i will defineatly try this, or at least a variation of it, which suits me better. This build should be very good on Bluestorm, i sucked really badly on it vs P, my only valid build was the 3 hatch ling.




Thanks, i wanted to say the same, i first believed it's gonna be a modifeid fantasy-build or sg like that what you want to share with us.


So great job, really, upload replays, you got a supporter.
p.s.: sry for my spelling or grammar, english is my 3th language, and i had a taugh weekend so some of my sentences may not have sense at all.

On October 27 2008 03:23 Chill wrote:
Interesting. When I first read a couple paragraphs I had written it off, but the logic behind it seems solid. I'm not sure about execution, but I'm willing to try it a few times.

On October 28 2008 04:33 Mora wrote:
neat idea.
i don't think it will work for many people who do not have exceptional control with their army. Dodging ensnare is super easy because of the time it takes for ensnare to travel from the queen to its target location.

On October 28 2008 04:33 Mora wrote:
neat idea.

i don't think it will work for many people who do not have exceptional control with their army. Dodging ensnare is super easy because of the time it takes for ensnare to travel from the queen to its target location.

FE terran into 2 fact tanks will be very difficult to beat with this strat if the terran is not tactically inept. Situations to flank aren't just created by the zerg player, they're presented by the T player.

If terran goes medic heavy and uses medic walls, hydra/ling suffers greatly.

Ensnare is only good for trapping terrans in a bad position. Sure, it nullifies stim (not entirely iirc), but it doesn't affect marines' ROF without stim. (ie: they don't need to stim to maintain their regular rate of fire). Assuming terran is getting early upgrades (when i played actively, this was always the case), hydra/ling becomes that much more ineffective (which is why lurkers are so powerful).

I don't understand how you can 4hatch, mass drones, mass an army, fast upgrade, and fast tech all at the same time in order to meet with the terran push.

I don't see any reason for the Terran player not to be able to see your 4hatch opening. Until you have zergling speed you have no way to kill the scv unless they suck donkey ass. If they see you slow tech they can adapt accordingly (ie: 4-5rax, slow tech, bunker/contain you).

* In the scenario where you are not teching, you need to keep up your army production in order to deal with any terran threat that comes your direction. At any point where you
try to switch to drone production (when you expand, or whatever) the terran has a window to attack. I would argue that a passive/defensive terran who keeps adding to his critical mass while supplementing with grades and vessels will be way too difficult to deal with without lurkers or hive tech. Once the terran has a 3-control group mass, ensnare becomes nearly useless.

Your strategy relies heavily on queens to catch them out of position - but if the terran never puts himself out of position, you're fucked.

i dunno, im not trying to be pessimistic. Im all for queen usage (i use them more than anyone else i know, except for maybe Eriador? lol). But i don't think your build/plan will work against any terran who knows more about this game than 'standard play'.

I would love to see a good player try this out though to see how effective it is with a zerg who has great multi-tasking and control.

On October 28 2008 04:28 Dromar wrote:
I haven't read all 4 pages because I don't have the time right now, but I have a couple things to say.

I've been toying with the idea of non-standard ZvT builds myself, and I think we're both on the same track: less hide-and-whore, more map control/aggression early game.

The thing is, the 3hatch muta build is designed to whore drones already, which you're claiming you can do better by stopping his first "force sunks" push with lings. The thing is, every 2 lings you make could have been a drone. If you build 3 sunks, you've lost 3 drones, and kept yourself safe. If you stop that first push with lings, you're going to need to use quite a bit of larva (like say 9 or 10 for 18/20 lings), so you'll actually have less drones, and in exchange you'll get to kill his first push (making his defenses more vulnerable as you get aggressive in midgame), and also map control.

Anyways, I guess what I'm saying is that using all that larva for lings to take out his first push isn't enough IMO, unless you also take advantage of your map control. Make that 4th hatch at a third base, preferably a nat so you can have a more secure 4th whenever you want it.

regarding a blog I wrote about a non-standard ZvT idea I had (though it's since been modified), see
this blog post of mine.

On October 28 2008 05:34 Misrah wrote:


Sorry i didn't see your question right away, about the lings taking a larvae- yes they do. So i decided to make a fourth hatch (before gas). With the extra hatch i can have the extra larvae i need to make ling/hydra here and there early game, and still stay strong economically. My teck speed suffers a bit from this, but other than that- nothing else.

Ok just finished reading the blog- interesting getting the 3rd expo. if that is a solid idea perhaps it should be incorporated into this build. You have a lot of interesting ideas there, i would suggest everyone to go and read it.

On October 28 2008 07:24 t_co wrote:


Again, reps please. Assuming you get den, evo +1, and dual hydra ups with ling speed, that is 300+100+150 right there, which means you need to be on gas for at least 90 seconds to begin your research, plus about 45 more seconds to get the 75-100 gas assuming constant 3:1 ling/hydra ratio.

Then 100 gas for lair, which takes 120 seconds.

Then it would take 60 more seconds for all that tech to finish, during which you would start queen's nest (another 150 gas) and queen (100 gas each). Which is another 30 seconds.

In total you'd need 3 minutes for all of this if you started lair before hydra tech, in which case T would contain you with bunkers. If you started hydra tech before lair, your queens would be late.

So all in all, T either contains or has a 4-5 minute timing window in which to prepare his all-in attack on your base. In 4 minutes, assumign T is on 2 bases, it can mass up 2 tanks, siege, and about 3-4 groups of marine and medic and simply plug you up and kill you with that massive ranged DPS output.

I simply don't understand how you could win without gross army mismanagement by the T. You have no idea how much hydraling MMF+tank can slaughter, upped or not upped.

On October 28 2008 07:26 t_co wrote:
Oh, and medic takes 30 seconds to build. So if T averages 4 rax production during this period he can get about 8 medics and 30 MMF + 2 tanks off the 2fac.

On October 28 2008 07:24 t_co wrote:


Again, reps please. Assuming you get den, evo +1, and dual hydra ups with ling speed, that is 300+100+150 right there, which means you need to be on gas for at least 90 seconds to begin your research, plus about 45 more seconds to get the 75-100 gas assuming constant 3:1 ling/hydra ratio.

Then 100 gas for lair, which takes 120 seconds.

Then it would take 60 more seconds for all that tech to finish, during which you would start queen's nest (another 150 gas) and queen (100 gas each). Which is another 30 seconds.

In total you'd need 3 minutes for all of this if you started lair before hydra tech, in which case T would contain you with bunkers. If you started hydra tech before lair, your queens would be late.

So all in all, T either contains or has a 4-5 minute timing window in which to prepare his all-in attack on your base. In 4 minutes, assumign T is on 2 bases, it can mass up 2 tanks, siege, and about 3-4 groups of marine and medic and simply plug you up and kill you with that massive ranged DPS output.

I simply don't understand how you could win without gross army mismanagement by the T. You have no idea how much hydraling MMF+tank can slaughter, upped or not upped.

On October 28 2008 09:31 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:
as a response to t_co and the op:

I suppose that you could in fact wall in zerg. The timing is in fact about the same as your 3 hat muta. The difference is that with 3 hat muta, you force T to remain at his base because of the threat of harass. I believe that there will be a small timing window for T to hit where you don't have any queens, right before your fourth hatch pops, that T can use to wall you in//build bunkers right in front of your natural. Thinking if that's true, then T should be able to use like 4 bunkers to keep you stuck inside your base, and then expand. Those are some pretty high level thoughts though, And i think that the solution would be scouting, just like you need the whole entire game of sc.

Thinking about it a little more, basically T is going to become stationary right in front of your base. If you let that happen, then you clearly failed to defeat the large ball, and you are in massive trouble.