[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 7

On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote:
How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.

Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.

The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels.
-------------------
Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.

Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)

On October 28 2008 23:21 Geo.Rion wrote:


dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon.
ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players

On October 28 2008 23:55 Kallepettersen wrote:

and what are B+ and higher player in your opinion? immortal machines of destruction?? Its really bad to base the success of a strategy on the incompetence of your opponent. You may crush some D or even C level players but for what? You'll climb ranks only to get crushed at B level and having to relearn a whole matchup if you ever want to hope to have a shot against these guys.

Queen nest pops- start ensnare asap
Get a Queen goddamit

On October 29 2008 05:38 Misrah wrote:
@ Mora-

Well +1 Missile is for two reasons-
1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.

2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two

However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.

Also why will terran have a significant advantage? Please i want to know why? (so that way i can fix it)

About the mid game- I am now thinking (once i get more replays and time playing this build) that perhaps getting a few lurkers in the mid game could be viable once you have secured your 3rd gas. Now i am certainly not talking about the amount of lurker composition that you would find in your standard lurk ling army, i am talking about just a few (3-4) with your armies to hopefully be able to deal significant damage while zerglings and hydra with ensnare force the terran to ball to not retreat. I believe that this small number of lurkers would suffice because you are going to be getting missile upgrades faster- so lurks will be very very deadly IMO. Like i said before atm this is speculation because i have yet to try this idea out, and attackzerg, superiorwolf and metaspace have not gotten back to me yet- about how they feel about the build, and if you have the gas flow to facilitate this idea.

On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote:
Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.

However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.

1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?

2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.

3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.

4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?

Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.

On October 29 2008 04:08 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
If necessary (quicker queen or more hydras), you should start your queen just after you start ensnare.

On October 29 2008 05:38 Misrah wrote:
@ Mora-

Well +1 Missile is for two reasons-
1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.

2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two

However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.

On October 29 2008 06:33 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal.

On October 29 2008 07:23 InRaged wrote:

why that? There's no point in having ensnare, when no queen can use it, right?

You should hatch queen first and only then research ensnare.

To be precise, you can have ~10 seconds delay before researching ensnare, since when you build queen and ensnare at the same time you have to wait about 10~12 seconds after research is done till queen has enough energy for cast.
So again, just to add more emphasis, hatching queen before upgrade will give you faster ensnare.


Hydra's much more expensive than zergling, deals same amount of damage and has slower rate of fire. Furthermore, against m&m +1 attack for hydra, is actually +0.5. First upgrade should definitely be +1 carapace, in my opinion.


Upgrades are applied before division by unit size.

On October 26 2008 16:20 Misrah wrote:
before my computer blew up

On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote:
Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.

However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.

1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?

2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.

3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.

4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?

Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.

On October 29 2008 07:34 Straylight wrote:


Combat?

On October 29 2008 11:09 b0red111 wrote:
1) early game dominance was very nice. You definately have to walk a fine line between unit and drone production from what I have seen. It seems to me that I was generally high on minerals and starved on gas in the beginning of the game, getting those upgrades early + hydras definately requires an earlier 2nd gas than normal.

1 continued ) I also was able to mass expand very early due to my mineral surpluss which set me up nicely for midgame. By the time I stopped the 3 tank vessel 2 controll group push I was on 4 gas.

2) I actually dont think that lurkers would be the best choice to add to the army. being on 4 gas early lets me get a fast hive which means quick transition straight to ulras. I think delaying hive to add lurkers would be a mistake, especially since the point of the build is to break the first terran ball and get to hive.

3) I kept my hatcheries on 1 handed keys (122345) and it wasnt that bad. Queens were also nice since I could generally set up to flank the ball (big open area on python) initiate the attack with ensnare, and then 7p8p9p my groups into it. I didnt hotkey the queens, rather I just told em to follow the controll groups of hydraling. I did get some queens irradiated during the fight, but I didnt think that was really a big deal since I got ensare off and they are relatively cheap.

4) for late game play I would say go straight ultras. You should be at about +1 melee/ +2 carapce when you hit hive and being on 4 gas you are going to have immediate access to them. Early cows can ruin a T's day. I also ran into bad micro problems with swarm getting into positions where hydra's couldn't deal damage. I would definately say go for the early ultras and add defilers once you are on pure ultraling.

Overall I think the toughest part of this build is the unit/drone balance in the early game. You need to be ready for the early 2 medic push, but at the same time you want to be as greedy as possible to set up that mid game hydra pump.

Iunno, I'm not the greatest player (like 130ish apm noob) but the build seemed effective for me the two times I tried it. The first time I lost due to late game incompetance, though I definately entered the late game with an advantage, and the second game I won by raping the initial 2 medic push and then cracking his nat.