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Just watched Wolf's replays. Love the CC infesting. Looks like a ton of fun, like some B.net attack match or something. Those Terrans suck, though, especially the second one.
The first Terran is overly aggressive in the beginning, which causes him to lose his initial force. TWICE! I think even normal muta harass would do him in at that point. Also has some macro problems and he forgot his attack/armor upgrades.
The second Terran just sucks. Heavy macro problems and horrible micro. The zerg didn't even need to cast ensnare.
Anyway, I now have a much clearer vision of this build. It's going to be interesting to see how this build fares against better players and bigger armies.
One thing I'd like to recommend is burrow. If the Terran casts Irradiate on a hydra during battle it can have an effect similar to storm. With burrow you can get rid of the infected hydra easily.
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On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote:
How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels.
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Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill)
dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon.
ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players
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On October 28 2008 23:21 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote:
How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels.
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Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill) dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon. ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players
and what are B+ and higher player in your opinion? immortal machines of destruction?? Its really bad to base the success of a strategy on the incompetence of your opponent. You may crush some D or even C level players but for what? You'll climb ranks only to get crushed at B level and having to relearn a whole matchup if you ever want to hope to have a shot against these guys.
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Looking at the build timing from replays, they look quite greedy....It looks like a marine+SCV all in could end it by the 5 minute mark or eariler with so few sunken/zlings around. Evo before lings means it can get 3rax-ed to death before hydra upgrades...
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On October 28 2008 23:55 Kallepettersen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2008 23:21 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 28 2008 10:08 SWPIGWANG wrote:
How about Terran go MediBat/Vult+mine for map control while expanding himself? No reason for the Terran to expose himself by moving to bad locations when can just hold the various chokes on the map on his side while whoring CC up. If you try to flank harder than your slowlords, you gets mined and lose army.
Zerglings are really non-issues against mixed medic and firebats, ensnare or no ensnare. Ensnare don't effect medic heal rates, so unless you have massive amounts of hydra, it won't kill a ball and marines would be shooting back too. Hell, firebat-medic can actually flame hydras to death if ensnare is not done. With critical mass of bats, which is only 2~3 build cycles on Barracks, the battle is reduced to ensnared marine medic vs hydra, a battle which hydra loses still.
The terran can probably just bunker his nat and grab an extra main and some. Once they grab enough gas they could go hard bat-tank with some vessels.
-------------------
Against fantasy, without the muta threat, the Terran can just go TvP mech with mass vul tank, except zerglings die super fast against vuls while hydra die even faster than dragoons. Sure, it has no mobility but slow push into a killing blow still works. Ensnare is of course, useless against sieged tanks, and brooding still expensive energy wise and might not save you before you die.
Mix in a few goliath/wraith/valk to snipe queens and overlords while mining everywhere would slowdown the zerg player just like how it slows down protoss. (and protoss detectors are at least harder to kill) dont forgot this: most of the lower level terrans, never ever saw a single queen in a ZvT. When they do, they wont be thinking "oh, he s going ensnare, i should go sg like firebat+medic and vultures, yeah, that's it". No, they will think "WTF, is this guy crazy?" and get confused or playing their game as if nothing had happened. I dont see this build becoming a standard one, if it does it's gonna be countered soon. ABout fantasy build, the terrans are glad, if they can keep in mind the basics of the build. They will always go goliaths first and tanks, no matter what. We are not talking about b+ and higher players, who adapt as fast as possible, we are playing against mortal human players and what are B+ and higher player in your opinion? immortal machines of destruction?? Its really bad to base the success of a strategy on the incompetence of your opponent. You may crush some D or even C level players but for what? You'll climb ranks only to get crushed at B level and having to relearn a whole matchup if you ever want to hope to have a shot against these guys.
if you dont base your strat on your enemys incompetences and mistakes you will loose. If your opponent is confusable due to his lack of expereince against queens that's a factor that you should take in consideration when you decide to go queens or not. It's not a cavelry-tourney where everyone is fghthing with the same revealed weapons
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Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
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Only have one thing to say:
Queen nest pops- start ensnare asap
Get a Queen goddamit
If necessary (quicker queen or more hydras), you should start your queen just after you start ensnare.
(Sorry for the edits... I went to test it).
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asdf im in the middle of being homeless and my bw cd is packed away.. HOW AM I GOING TO TRY THIS OUT?
edit - why do you go +1 missle for hydras instead of +1 attack for lings. or for that matter, why not go +1 armor and benefit both?
im sorry if you already explained this.
edit edit - the more i think about it the more fun i think this strat will be. I'm still fairly certain that at the midgame the terran (if he plays right) will be at a significant advantage - but who cares.
For the first year that i played zerg i was determined to make 1base zerg vs terran work. And i was alot more successful with it than anyone wanted to give the strategy credit for. I was fast-lurking, or going burrow strats, or mass ling into 2 hatch muta; all strategies that are not effective enough in competitive play if the terran player plays his cards right. But it was still fun. And i could still beat what were considered 'decent' players with my builds.
this one i don't think is any different. it's fun. (and alot more viable than 1base-2hatch-masslings. lol)
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@ Mora-
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons-
1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Also why will terran have a significant advantage? Please i want to know why? (so that way i can fix it)
About the mid game- I am now thinking (once i get more replays and time playing this build) that perhaps getting a few lurkers in the mid game could be viable once you have secured your 3rd gas. Now i am certainly not talking about the amount of lurker composition that you would find in your standard lurk ling army, i am talking about just a few (3-4) with your armies to hopefully be able to deal significant damage while zerglings and hydra with ensnare force the terran to ball to not retreat. I believe that this small number of lurkers would suffice because you are going to be getting missile upgrades faster- so lurks will be very very deadly IMO. Like i said before atm this is speculation because i have yet to try this idea out, and attackzerg, superiorwolf and metaspace have not gotten back to me yet- about how they feel about the build, and if you have the gas flow to facilitate this idea.
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On October 29 2008 05:38 Misrah wrote:
@ Mora-
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons-
1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Also why will terran have a significant advantage? Please i want to know why? (so that way i can fix it)
About the mid game- I am now thinking (once i get more replays and time playing this build) that perhaps getting a few lurkers in the mid game could be viable once you have secured your 3rd gas. Now i am certainly not talking about the amount of lurker composition that you would find in your standard lurk ling army, i am talking about just a few (3-4) with your armies to hopefully be able to deal significant damage while zerglings and hydra with ensnare force the terran to ball to not retreat. I believe that this small number of lurkers would suffice because you are going to be getting missile upgrades faster- so lurks will be very very deadly IMO. Like i said before atm this is speculation because i have yet to try this idea out, and attackzerg, superiorwolf and metaspace have not gotten back to me yet- about how they feel about the build, and if you have the gas flow to facilitate this idea.
lol? the build is Defiant!!!
anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal.
edit: when you say to start +1 armor after +1 missile attack, i think it would be better to get +2 missile attack. +2 missile attack costs 125/125 and overall i think having 7 damage instead of 6 is a big deal, like mentioned above. (not to mention the benafit lurkers will get)
i think best resulsts would be to get +1 missile attack, then start +2 missile and +1 carapace at same time or roughly the same time (whenever you get the money)
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On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote:
Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
i dont think it would be hard micro queens because you are trading the standard 9-11 mutas for the queens; queens are easier to micro than mutas... trust me they are.
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@ pyro
Well I'm interesting to hear the +2 attack idea. The reason that i need to get the +1 carapace going is because your going to need to match terran +1 attack. You want your lings and hydra to stay alive long enough to get some damage on the ball you know? I plan to do more testing once i get my computer back, and i will probably play a few games of each upgrade to try and find the most successful.
Also the queens, i don't think you are understanding what i am talking about with the queen play. I am referring to the fact that you going to have multiple control groups of units- and at the same time micro your queens for ensnare. I was trying to find out from the people that have played this build, if the micro is possible, and you can still feel like you have good control over your ground units.
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On October 29 2008 04:08 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
If necessary (quicker queen or more hydras), you should start your queen just after you start ensnare.
why that? There's no point in having ensnare, when no queen can use it, right? 
You should hatch queen first and only then research ensnare.
To be precise, you can have ~10 seconds delay before researching ensnare, since when you build queen and ensnare at the same time you have to wait about 10~12 seconds after research is done till queen has enough energy for cast.
So again, just to add more emphasis, hatching queen before upgrade will give you faster ensnare.
On October 29 2008 05:38 Misrah wrote:
@ Mora-
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons-
1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know.
Hydra's much more expensive than zergling, deals same amount of damage and has slower rate of fire. Furthermore, against m&m +1 attack for hydra, is actually +0.5. First upgrade should definitely be +1 carapace, in my opinion.
On October 29 2008 06:33 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal.
Upgrades are applied before division by unit size.
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On October 29 2008 07:23 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2008 04:08 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
If necessary (quicker queen or more hydras), you should start your queen just after you start ensnare. why that? There's no point in having ensnare, when no queen can use it, right? You should hatch queen first and only then research ensnare. To be precise, you can have ~10 seconds delay before researching ensnare, since when you build queen and ensnare at the same time you have to wait about 10~12 seconds after research is done till queen has enough energy for cast. So again, just to add more emphasis, hatching queen before upgrade will give you faster ensnare. Show nested quote +On October 29 2008 05:38 Misrah wrote:
@ Mora-
Well +1 Missile is for two reasons-
1. Hydra will engage marines before lings do, so i was hoping to give the hydra the best possible chance for damage dealing.
2. With the increased attack, they have a better chance at sniping an early tank or two
However like i have said before this build defiantly needs some work, and if you can come up with a reason why getting +1 in a different upgrade is a better idea, please let me know. Hydra's much more expensive than zergling, deals same amount of damage and has slower rate of fire. Furthermore, against m&m +1 attack for hydra, is actually +0.5. First upgrade should definitely be +1 carapace, in my opinion. Show nested quote +On October 29 2008 06:33 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
anyways, i think +1 attack on hydras is good. why? because hydras actually do 5 damage to marines, not 10. so adding that +1 for 6 damage is a big deal. Upgrades are applied before division by unit size.
Can't argue with that logic. +1 carapace gogogoggogo
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On October 26 2008 16:20 Misrah wrote:
before my computer blew up
Combat?
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On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote:
Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back.
However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately.
1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please?
2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build.
3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop.
4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play?
Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here.
1. Early game dominance is really nice. I think there is definitely a timing against a Zerg but as long as you scout well and see when they move out, you'll have enough to deal with the standard small mnm group that first pushes out.
2. During mid game I actually had a gas surplus, so I could definitely afford going lurkers. There is a lot of gas and a lot of minerals so it's really about possible to do anything.
3. Queens were not much of a micro hassle. APM, not sure about this. The ensnare really helped a lot in the battles.
4. Need to play more since I've only played the build 3 times and haven't gotten to a real late game yet... I would think that defiler -> ultra play is better, and the melee upgrade timing is the same timing as a standard ZvT imo. You could even go straight to ultras because you have so many expansions and can support it easily, as well you'll probably already have +2 so your +5 ultras will be very fast.
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On October 29 2008 07:34 Straylight wrote:Combat?
motherboard meltdown actually. SO no it didn't blow up- just wanted some dramatic effect
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1) early game dominance was very nice. You definately have to walk a fine line between unit and drone production from what I have seen. It seems to me that I was generally high on minerals and starved on gas in the beginning of the game, getting those upgrades early + hydras definately requires an earlier 2nd gas than normal.
1 continued ) I also was able to mass expand very early due to my mineral surpluss which set me up nicely for midgame. By the time I stopped the 3 tank vessel 2 controll group push I was on 4 gas.
2) I actually dont think that lurkers would be the best choice to add to the army. being on 4 gas early lets me get a fast hive which means quick transition straight to ulras. I think delaying hive to add lurkers would be a mistake, especially since the point of the build is to break the first terran ball and get to hive.
3) I kept my hatcheries on 1 handed keys (122345) and it wasnt that bad. Queens were also nice since I could generally set up to flank the ball (big open area on python) initiate the attack with ensnare, and then 7p8p9p my groups into it. I didnt hotkey the queens, rather I just told em to follow the controll groups of hydraling. I did get some queens irradiated during the fight, but I didnt think that was really a big deal since I got ensare off and they are relatively cheap.
4) for late game play I would say go straight ultras. You should be at about +1 melee/ +2 carapce when you hit hive and being on 4 gas you are going to have immediate access to them. Early cows can ruin a T's day. I also ran into bad micro problems with swarm getting into positions where hydra's couldn't deal damage. I would definately say go for the early ultras and add defilers once you are on pure ultraling.
Overall I think the toughest part of this build is the unit/drone balance in the early game. You need to be ready for the early 2 medic push, but at the same time you want to be as greedy as possible to set up that mid game hydra pump.
Iunno, I'm not the greatest player (like 130ish apm noob) but the build seemed effective for me the two times I tried it. The first time I lost due to late game incompetance, though I definately entered the late game with an advantage, and the second game I won by raping the initial 2 medic push and then cracking his nat.
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This is an interesting concept, and just like Chill I had written it off during the first few paragraphs just due to some minor errors in spelling and some basic things like TvZ instead of ZvT.
However, I too have toyed with this idea quite a while back. It is very very interesting and considering I had some success with it a long time ago when I quite frankly sucked balls. I would be very interested in trying it again now. I will try this out and get back to you, I am also around a C rank Zerg.
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On October 29 2008 11:09 b0red111 wrote:
1) early game dominance was very nice. You definately have to walk a fine line between unit and drone production from what I have seen. It seems to me that I was generally high on minerals and starved on gas in the beginning of the game, getting those upgrades early + hydras definately requires an earlier 2nd gas than normal.
1 continued ) I also was able to mass expand very early due to my mineral surpluss which set me up nicely for midgame. By the time I stopped the 3 tank vessel 2 controll group push I was on 4 gas.
2) I actually dont think that lurkers would be the best choice to add to the army. being on 4 gas early lets me get a fast hive which means quick transition straight to ulras. I think delaying hive to add lurkers would be a mistake, especially since the point of the build is to break the first terran ball and get to hive.
3) I kept my hatcheries on 1 handed keys (122345) and it wasnt that bad. Queens were also nice since I could generally set up to flank the ball (big open area on python) initiate the attack with ensnare, and then 7p8p9p my groups into it. I didnt hotkey the queens, rather I just told em to follow the controll groups of hydraling. I did get some queens irradiated during the fight, but I didnt think that was really a big deal since I got ensare off and they are relatively cheap.
4) for late game play I would say go straight ultras. You should be at about +1 melee/ +2 carapce when you hit hive and being on 4 gas you are going to have immediate access to them. Early cows can ruin a T's day. I also ran into bad micro problems with swarm getting into positions where hydra's couldn't deal damage. I would definately say go for the early ultras and add defilers once you are on pure ultraling.
Overall I think the toughest part of this build is the unit/drone balance in the early game. You need to be ready for the early 2 medic push, but at the same time you want to be as greedy as possible to set up that mid game hydra pump.
Iunno, I'm not the greatest player (like 130ish apm noob) but the build seemed effective for me the two times I tried it. The first time I lost due to late game incompetance, though I definately entered the late game with an advantage, and the second game I won by raping the initial 2 medic push and then cracking his nat.
I LOVE YOU.
Straight teck to ultras? Do you know what time you were getting to hive play?
Also the drone balancing and stopping the first push is indeed a bit stingy. Proper scouting is key, so you can drone whore for as long as possible.
I am glad to hear you like the build.
Perhaps I/m being to biased, but i think that so far, people generally have a (good)? consensus on the build? With a little tweaking- perhaps this could become a viable build.
But i have one other question- In your opinion how difficult is this build to pull of? Comparing to 3 hatch lurker and 3 hatch muta. Ideas, thoughts?
Also starved for gas- well in that case we can try this:
12hatch
11pool
13hatch
16-18hatch at third expo
18gas
evo after gas pops
**Add extra hatcheries at anytime you have surplus minerals**
-1st 150gas get +1 carapace (then get +1 Melee)
-next 100 Lair
SECOND GAS *still need exact timing window though*
-next 50 Den
-next 100 Ling Speed
*When den pops get hydra range, follow with speed*
Queens nest when lair pops
-start building queen
-10 or so seconds into queen build, start researching ensnare
2nd Evo chamber- start +1 missle
Thanks to everyones suggestions and comments, your community has help the BO become more streamlined i believe.
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EPT
