EPTI thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army.
[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 9
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On October 30 2008 04:44 Misrah wrote: Well i distinctly remember a game when T had gotten quite the large ball. Took it down, but it took many units to do so. I need rep's and i will mass game this build to try and find some type of answer for you Mora. If your right on all of these accounts then the build will need to be drastically changed. Back when i was playing this build- when T would get a large force, it took me many waves of units to bring it down. I have stated in earlier posts and will now again, that this build cannot swallow the ball whole. You are going to have to take chunks of the ball- bit by bit. that's the thing about the terran arsenal. If the terran is using his race properly, he shouldn't ever lose it 'bit by bit'. Typically the terran ball falls in big chunks (usually from lurker fire). The only way hydra/ling can take it down in big chunks is by catching it out of position. Once again i am going to try and suggest a mid-late game switch to a more luker heavy build. I figure that because this strat will give you the early game dominance you should be able to secure more gas faster. The result should be that you have make more lurkers. Because the extra gas you have taken should make up for the gas you are losing buying queens, and upgrades. I believe that this is a poor idea. I think the strat may be viable - maybe not at the highest eschelon - but certainly viable below it. If you're going to get queens and queens nest and upgrades, i would forgo lurkers until late game (if ever). In the mid-late game transition it would seem best to get filers as fast as you can. Your army already has upgrades, and with swarm to give you lasting resilience until plague comes into play, you should be able to then take out the ball in big chunks. I think the best bet is to spend all your extra gas on queens (until you need it for defilers). By constantly using ensnare, the goal would be to keep the Terran passive/defensive for as long as you can - allowing you to expand and tech. If he is ensnared everytime he moves out of his choke, he will not be able to keep his ball in one piece (and if he seperates his ball, well, that's the whole point); if you can manage to keep 1/3 of his ball ensnared everytime he moves out, i think you will force him to split up or stay passive. You do this with more than just 3 queens. If the terran is going 2fact tank, it would be wise to research broodling at this time (you should have 5-6 queens). Again, the whole point of this strategy is to not attack until you have positional advantage - taking out key tanks will allow for this even more so. The Ball, so far this build has shown me this: If the terran leaves his base before this 'critical mass' he will be behind. His army will be puny, and by the time he can reach the critical mass that attackzerg and mora are talking about, zerg should have crazy expos and fast ultra on the way. The 'critical mass' we are referring to should occur much before 'crazy expos' and ultras are on the way. It's actually right after the early-mid transition. He should have 3 control groups, and you should be very hard pressed to deal with the conflict head-on (and dealing with it at your expo is no better a situation). which is why i say: make queens sooner. and make more of them. Keep him passive or make him restlessly move out of position. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
I am still hesitant to write this build off just yet, i want to still do some more mass games and then post them. I am probably being very biased right now, but i want more testing, more replays and more players trying this build. I guess what i am trying to say is; Mora perhaps you are right. But i want more concrete data for myself. (i just don't want to let this die, i thought that perhaps we could be on to something.  )THIS GOES TO YOU!!!!!! PEOPLE THAT LURK THIS THREAD- please for the love of god post replays, give your opinion on your play, how you think the game went, ext. I need it- we need it. Better to beat the horse dead, then let it slowly limp away. If Cocaine style is really a bad idea, i want to be proven so without a doubt. I just don't want this to die as a whisper. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
i didn't think i was writing it off misrah, im actually really eager to try this build myself just with more queens.  | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
I'm excited to hear that you are still willing to give this build a chance tho, i hope that with your experience you can see some aspects of game play that i may have missed. I am just going to truly try and believe that somehow we can make this work- no matter what level of play it is tested on. Just a few more bugs to fix, and then i think we could actually have something to work with on a more grand scale. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On October 30 2008 08:51 Misrah wrote: I realize that you were not trying to throw down the hammer- I'm just getting so anxious, not having my computer and having to try and scramble to read up the battle reports of other people. While not being able to draw from my own experiences. Also i can't post replays, or further the discussion- with in game annalists about my/others play. I'm excited to hear that you are still willing to give this build a chance tho, i hope that with your experience you can see some aspects of game play that i may have missed. I am just going to truly try and believe that somehow we can make this work- no matter what level of play it is tested on. Just a few more bugs to fix, and then i think we could actually have something to work with on a more grand scale. im very flattered and all, but why do you think i am good? lol. i used to be decent when i was active, but i'm definitely not anywhere close to decent now. Infact, i've played superiorwolf 3 times or so a couple of months back. iirc he raped me 3-0. He's a much better player than i am.  | ||
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osmark
Austria15 Posts
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion) But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends. He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On October 30 2008 05:07 Badjas wrote: I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army. You get more mobility with the queen, so unless T has just about perfect control of their ball, you should be able to snipe the tank (scouting depending) 2 other ideas- If/when T decides to move out, you might want to think about countering the nat. You can broodling any tanks that are helping to defend, and the whole point of this is your army is more mobile. You might be able to snipe the nat cc (map dependent), and then you only need to worry about the ball. The other idea is that lurkers technically do splash, not higher dps. Ideally, you would have enough gas for both broodling (getting the tank) and lurkers (killing m/m). It looks like the decision of which to get first is going to depend on (just to name a few): Number of tanks T has (more tank=broodling), number of m/m (more m/m=lurk), skill of the players (Lurks are better at a lower level, higher level players spread better, how many hydra you have (more hydra makes it easier to get lurks), how many queens you have (more queens=more broodling=less tank/medic), etc. Interestingly enough, what map you're on has just about the least effect- Narrow corridors are good for tanks and for lurkers, so you need to look at tank/marine/your army composition more. | ||
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ProbesAreCute
United States21 Posts
On October 30 2008 12:08 Too_MuchZerg wrote: My poor tryout of this queen tactic a bit modified though Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion) But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends. He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally. I watched the rep. First off, I think you could have expanded MUCH more. You had a ton of gas, and never enough minerals. Either you should've expanded more, or you should have made more drones in the beginning. You were using up your minerals, but you had extra larvae everywhere. More mineral expansions. Queen use. You didn't really use it...in the beginning you had just lings. It was lucky for you that the T decided not to attack you straight off the bat or get a lot of firebats to counter. You should probably get more hydras for taking care of firebats and get a queen's nest WITH A QUEEN much earlier in case the Terran tries to push out early. Also scourge earlier could have taken care of the irradiate/dmatrix. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
Hm...so I have low level D replays. Will they be welcomed? | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
@Rucky- YES THE WILL, NEED REPLAYS NOW!!!!!! plz? **Ohh as a note, i have not yet been able to watch any of your builds- to give my own critique. My college computers do NOT have SC, so the only way i can watch is an vpfod on youtube or something of that nature.** Ok so i have still not been able to come up with a specific "idea" for this build. I had originally thought that this build would be more of a passive style, and be able to match terran and just sit back- while you can mass expo. However you guys have shown me that perhaps this build does not function like this at all. It seems that everyone has come to the consensus that- even though you have a high production rate, and you can build units faster than T- that the thought of killing the T mid-late game ball is not viable. Even though you can/should be able to throw waves of units at this attack. (which i had hoped originally would be enough to stall him long enough to get defilers/ultra?) If this is the case, then perhaps this build should be looked at from a new point of view? Does anyone have any idea of how this build may be used as a timing attack? or COULD you use this build as a timing attack? Another idea i was thinking of today, was- what if this build was merely used as a stall tactic. While stalling go for mass expos, gas and then transition to lurker? Or perhaps this build could stall for mass expo and SUPER FAST hive-with ultra to compliment? Basically i am asking all of these questions, because i don't have a computer with SC- so i cannot try and test each of these ideas out. I am asking you the TL community what do you think of the viability of the above posted. Perhaps this "Cocaine Style" shouldn't be a game style- just more of an opener- or early game mindset if you will. After the "Cocaine BO" you could (possibly) transition to something more standard? *I'm hoping at this point* that Cocaine has given you the early game map control, thus allowing for a transition into standard play, because of your mass expos, and your good production- you should be able to go anywhere from here? (hell even mass muta lol) @ Mora- well you have been around the scene for awhile, longer than i have. In fact you are the only "older/experienced" eye looking at this build- attackzerg and superior wolf as well. Chill seemed to have "accepted" this as not pure lunacy, however he hasn't made any comments/suggestions/replays- so i guess he has already written this off. idk I just like hearing from people with more experience/expertise than me giving this build criticisms. As for people that are taking the time to play this build- First off *round of applause* Thanks for wasting you time to write/play and critique this Bo. I cannot thank you enough. But remember that your not going to be macro/microing this build perfectly the first or even tenth time you play it. (remember when you were still trying to learn 3hatch muta?) I have / had a bit of a head start on everyone with this Bo- but with my computer gone, not really anymore. I remember when i first started playing this BO, from the more recent times. My supply count got higher and faster the more times i tried the build. Try to keep in mind that you are playing a brand new Bo- with which you have no experience, while your T opponent is playing something they have repeated hundreds if not thousands of times. | ||
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Aerox
Malaysia1213 Posts
On October 30 2008 05:07 Badjas wrote: I thought I'd highlight the idea of targeting bio instead because it might just cause enough damage while having a lower risk of losing your queen, since the tanks are more in the back of the army. I'm guessing you didn't have proper experience with queens. Nothing is stopping you from going round the back. Just get the tanks. It's much more worth it. Bio units cost little and broodlings may die easily upon spawning. So, if your broodings failed, at least you got a tank. And besides, one would rather ensnare on bio units which this guide is focused on. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 30 2008 12:25 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote: You get more mobility with the queen, so unless T has just about perfect control of their ball, you should be able to snipe the tank (scouting depending) 2 other ideas- If/when T decides to move out, you might want to think about countering the nat. You can broodling any tanks that are helping to defend, and the whole point of this is your army is more mobile. You might be able to snipe the nat cc (map dependent), and then you only need to worry about the ball. The other idea is that lurkers technically do splash, not higher dps. Ideally, you would have enough gas for both broodling (getting the tank) and lurkers (killing m/m). It looks like the decision of which to get first is going to depend on (just to name a few): Number of tanks T has (more tank=broodling), number of m/m (more m/m=lurk), skill of the players (Lurks are better at a lower level, higher level players spread better, how many hydra you have (more hydra makes it easier to get lurks), how many queens you have (more queens=more broodling=less tank/medic), etc. Interestingly enough, what map you're on has just about the least effect- Narrow corridors are good for tanks and for lurkers, so you need to look at tank/marine/your army composition more. Ohh by the way (sorry I totally missed this) This man has some GOOD ideas. So people you know what to do! Pick it apart- see if anything here is usable. My take on the matter: Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.) However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab. And if the T decides to split his forces (perfect for us) we can destroy his army at both ends. If the T keeps going for our nat, with our high mobility we should be able to create a perfect flank- with him trapped in the middle of our natural choke. Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time. however in the off chance that you don't looking at army composition is a great idea (that i never thought of) Basically this- if you see 2fact, or heavy tank- go broodling, and snipe the tanks. If you don't see 2fact or heavy tank- upgrade lurker and integrate a few into your army to deal with the increased M&M | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
first half BO second half Action | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
I played the build again yesterday, unfortunately against two really weak opponents, so they are not representative (hence I do not post them). At least I gathered more experience:
I hope I will be able to play against a better opponent soon, so I can post a replay. In the meantime. I watched Too_MuchZerg's replay: On October 30 2008 12:08 Too_MuchZerg wrote: My poor tryout of this queen tactic a bit modified though + Show Spoiler + Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion) But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends. He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally. What I noticed:
They way I see this build, you should always attack with a mix of hydra AND ling (I use mixed control groups to ease that); and you should NOT recklessly attack the T's nat (or any fortified position you cannot flank). I found containing works well (providing enough open space in front of the T to be able to flank nicely), while abusing map control. Final random thoughts:I presume the build can me made more effective if you succeed in faking a 3 hatch muta. The idea would be to place 3rd hatch "hidden" within main, and to place the initial evo/queen's nest there, and buying a decoy spire right after lair. The problem is getting rid of T's scout (with slow lings) for this to work of course. Also, the decoy spire slows down the build, but would be well offset by the T making less tanks (which is what you want), and building turrets. BTW you could then still go muta later, I just wondered how it would be if T had to defend his main vs. muta harass with ensnared m&m :-) | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On October 30 2008 16:28 Misrah wrote: Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.) Read my other post, broodling just does not work, and is not available before you'd get to ultras anyway. However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab. I disagree. T can either raze your base faster than you can raze his (again, you cannot flank when going for his nat, you are not beeing terribly effective), or pincer you between his nat defenses and his ball, then you're fucked. Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time. The way it went for me, when I had the gas to support lurkers in addition to hydra/ling, I had enough to transition to ultra anyway. Currently (in want of better opponents) large tank numbers where the only problem, and lurkers wont help there. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain! So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras. | ||
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
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