EPT[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 8
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 29 2008 11:20 mSLeGenD wrote: This is an interesting concept, and just like Chill I had written it off during the first few paragraphs just due to some minor errors in spelling and some basic things like TvZ instead of ZvT. However, I too have toyed with this idea quite a while back. It is very very interesting and considering I had some success with it a long time ago when I quite frankly sucked balls. I would be very interested in trying it again now. I will try this out and get back to you, I am also around a C rank Zerg. Cant wait to hear from you @superiorwolf Ya i think that InRaged and your idea for the +1 carapace is a much much better idea than mine. The BO has now been changed. But the next question is this- what to upgrade with the second evo. missile or Melee? Actually- i don't think that it will matter because +1 carapace will be getting done soon as well, and you should be able to go both? idk. Basically i am wondering, THOUGHTS ON UPGRADE ORDER PEOPLE? I like b0red111's idea of just going straight to ultra/hydra/ling and skip everything else. Thoughts? ideas? once again I'm going to ask about UPGRADE ORDER- to help facilitate ultra rush? | ||
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Ideas
United States8087 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 29 2008 11:57 Ideas wrote: Once the T realizes that you are not going lurker, he is likely to make a lot less vessel than usual, so do you guys think burrow is made any more viable with this build? Hmmm that is really a great point. IMO i think that burrow would be very game dependent- so i would hesitate to say that you should get it every game. On the other hand tho- the thought of burrow-ensnare-super surprise ambush flank on a mid-game terran would be EPIC. Burrow has many uses outside of the obvious ambush, scouting is also good. however i don't see a use for burrow early game because you are going to need all of your gas for ups, and other things. However in the mid game, possibly before T comes out- it has a possibility. Burrow is cheap at that point, so idk. Once again i would have to say game dependent. | ||
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b0red111
United States48 Posts
but yeah, once you're on 4 gas, you can basically pump straight ultra's which I would think gives the potential for an early game ender. Oh, and for upgrade order I would DEFINATELY recommend +1 and +2 carapace off 1 evo chamber then +3 carapace and +1 melee off a second\ EDIT: another thing that I noticed is that this build works much better if you are able to pull off a 3 hat before pool ( you scout like a 14CC or something). I'd definately give the 3 hat before pool a try, even if its not something you can use every time, it definately works well with the mass low tier units idea and lets you take your 4th gas expansion before lair finishes. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
For the second gas, i will look at my replay timings (ONCE I GET THEM) and let you know what i was doing originally. Hive around 9:20? That is early. Really really early. If you mass expo'd you could easily get 4gas and then go mass ultra. That ultra would be so quick- it's scary. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
I'm going to try with the new BO with carapace upgrade first and fast ultras ftw! Edit: I tried the new BO and it's actually viable. With this build, zerg masses hydra-ling to contain and expo. Then quickly transition to ultras. Once ultras are out, m&m don't stand a chance. (Hive at around 10 minutes...fully upgraded ultras at around 13 minutes.) I won with just mass ultra ling. I'm barely a C- so maybe my opponent was bad. He did irradiate the ultras, but that wasn't enough because irradiate helps kill m&m faster. A better terran will go tank heavy with more factories to kill ultras. If that happens, I'm thinking after using queens for ensnare, broodling can be upgraded to battle seige tanks. spawn broodlings some seiged tanks so they will fire at tehmselves and then flank with ultra-ling. POSSIBILITIES! I hope some higher level players try this Zerg on Coke BO...just for fun...with replays!!! | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On October 29 2008 02:47 Misrah wrote: Well this is interesting, seem attackzerg, superiorwolf, and metaspace are finally trying to do this build. Like i have said before i will be mass gaming this build once i get my computer back. However to the players that have tried this build- i can now ask a series of questions to you, because now you now know how cocaine style plays out, so you can answer more accurately. + Show Spoiler + 1. Overall, how did you feel about the early game dominance or lack thereof that this build tries to give the zerg player? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, please? 2. during the mid game (before tecking to hive) do you feel that your gas reserves or gas supply could supplement integrating 3-4 lurks into your armies? If so why? and Why not? I ask this question to try and preemptively deal with terrans who think they can switch to mass medibat vult and hard counter this build. 3. Were queens to much of a micro hassle for you? Also going with the micro- could you handle this new army composition and tactics- while maintaining your macro? Do you think that higher APM is needed for this build to be used successfully? Did ensnare do what i had promised? or did it kind of flop. 4. When transitioning into late game- what do you feel is more effective and why? Going to Defiler then ultra hydra play. Or going muta and guardian hydra play? Thanks for all of the enthusiasm guys. I hope that we are actually on to something here. Preliminary results, use grain of salt: 1) Early game dominance existed and was very refreshing. My (weak) T opponents seemed at loss what to do. From mid-game on I was able to contain the T effectively and crush hes repeated attempts to break out by trading armies and reprocduing rapidly (as the build hoped for). 2) Gas was the limiting factor. As b0red111 said, 2nd gas needs to be early to have gas for all needed upgrades (mins and supply count on the other hand rocket so fast I have not yet coped with it properly). Mixing in lurkers would be a problem midgame gas-wise, and I do not feel they complement the build well (mobility!), nor had I the impression you'd need them. 3) Not at all. Micro was way easier than lurkerling. For me, macro was easier in consequence. Ensare worked excellent (at my skill level). My way of tackling the ball was attaching (follow mode) a queen to each control group (3 to 4 in mid-game), setting up a flank, then a-moving all units onto the ball, at the same time selecting the queens (using mouse) and casting ensnare; the timing being such that ensnare hit the moment my units came into range (easy to do as queens are so fast, and fly). From the T's point of view, the moment he saw my attack coming, his ball got ensnared. :-) Most times I had more queens than needed, and was then able to Ensnare vessels, reinforcements, etc. The battle quickly became so favourable most of the times that I was able to quit microing earlier than usual (and go back to macroing - no unburrownig lurks, complex repositioning, no checking on scourge count etc.) 4) For the fun of it, I tried guardian. Despite beeing affordable, I felt they did not work well in practice, as they are so much slower than the rest of the army, and were too weak due to lack of upgrades. Other comments:
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SynC[gm]
United States3127 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil. I am not good enough at controling large armies for this to work for me. | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil. If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.) | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: I've tried and failed all night doing this ZvT vs C+ Terran. It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil. I am not good enough at controling large armies for this to work for me. What are your upgrades at 9 minutes? What's T's ball size at that time, compared to your army size? What was your army mix? I suspect the large number of tanks is the main problem? If so, I imagine you tried attacking the ball while tanks were not sieged (i.e., while ball moves). Was that possible? Thx in advance Edit: Could you perhaps post a replay of that? | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: I've tried and failed all night doing this ZvT vs C+ Terran. It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil. I am not good enough at controlling large armies for this to work for me. post replays on youtube, so i can watch them lol Otherwise I'm going to have to wait for meta/or you to give me a commentary on paper. And that is never as fun. what are you grades at 9min? your expos should be huge now- and you should be able to constantly pump units from a plethora of hatch. You say that this build is serving you well until that point, so it makes me think that you have map control- so more expos? I am just throwing this out there because i have not seen or heard anything about your games. Just trying to take this at face value. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On October 29 2008 21:50 Badjas wrote: If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.) Getting broodling may be possible- it could certainly help against those tanks- and ya perhaps the splash damage could do some good work against the other tanks, and m&m. Once again tho- your going to need to get the upgrade (more gas) and also make sure that your queen numbers stay high because you going to NEED ENSNARE as well. Basically i just really really really want my computer back so i can mass game this build and try all of these new ideas. | ||
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Aerox
Malaysia1213 Posts
On October 29 2008 21:50 Badjas wrote: If there are more tanks used, it may be an option to broodling a single marine when tanks are seiged and idle. That way, if you pick off the right one(s), the bio units could get a good deal of splash damage. If you can take out a good deal of bio this way it'll be easier to deal with the tanks. Though it costs another upgrade and more energy... (just theorizing, didn't try this myself, ain't good enough at that.) Well, you can just broodling the tanks.... | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On October 29 2008 21:16 AttackZerg wrote: I've tried and failed all night doing this ZvT vs C+ Terran. It always seems to work good for about 9 minutes and then medics and marines are at a 1/1 ratio along with 1-1 grades and 2 factory tanks are evil. I am not good enough at controling large armies for this to work for me. this. i called it. edit - hydra/ling w/ ensnare does not even come close to equating the dps of lurker/ling. it also does not come anywhere close to equating the DPS of marine/tank. Once the T ball gets to 3 control groups, you're going to be in trouble. Best bet at that point is to keep ensnaring his army and slow him down and/or put him on tilt and then attack (and keep his army count down, as the strategy is intended to do). the real problem with this build is that your army is only effective if the T is out of position - can you can't force him to be out of position. | ||
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41799#15 | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
I need rep's and i will mass game this build to try and find some type of answer for you Mora. If your right on all of these accounts then the build will need to be drastically changed. Back when i was playing this build- when T would get a large force, it took me many waves of units to bring it down. I have stated in earlier posts and will now again, that this build cannot swallow the ball whole. You are going to have to take chunks of the ball- bit by bit. I am going to try once again to try and advocate the following (things i plan to do once i can be back on b.net) But I'm wondering if anyone wants to try and come up to the plate now, and do something. Upgrades- How far ahead is the zerg player in upgrades when T has 3 control groups. Expos- How many do you have? You need upgrades, to supply and support your constant waves of units. Hatchery Numbers- How many can you build realistically and how many do you have producing at this stage? Once again i am going to try and suggest a mid-late game switch to a more luker heavy build. I figure that because this strat will give you the early game dominance you should be able to secure more gas faster. The result should be that you have make more lurkers. Because the extra gas you have taken should make up for the gas you are losing buying queens, and upgrades. Those are my best ideas on taking down the ball at this time. I have already expressed other repeated ideas in other posts in this thread. If Mora is correct, we have a serious problem. The Ball, so far this build has shown me this: If the terran leaves his base before this 'critical mass' he will be behind. His army will be puny, and by the time he can reach the critical mass that attackzerg and mora are talking about, zerg should have crazy expos and fast ultra on the way. In the off chance that terran doesnt attack and simply masses units inside of his main: Can zerg create enough expansions, and get such an insane production rate to stop this push? Or can zerg switch to mid-late game lurker transition? to stop the ball. If the answer is a NO to the above questions, and has been shown in reps (and after i mass game for a few weeks) then the viability of this build is nonexistent. My idea will have failed, and cocaine style will be nothing but a useless way to beat terran noobs. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
transitioning into ultras is much more intelligent than either defilers or guardians ~_~. +1 ranged attack seems silly to me because... -the hydras do 1/2 damage -they are meant to be meat shields -as long as your lings are dealing the damage and able to do so thanks to your hydras, no problemo not sure if +1 carapace or melee would be better... seems like carapace would be stronger just off the top of my head because it makes the hydras last longer, and boosts the lings aswell. delaying the queens a bit while ensnare is researching could be another way to conserve gas during the mid-game | ||
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