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On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote:
for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
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On October 30 2008 21:11 village_idiot wrote:This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain! So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras.
Didn't the T have vessels out already? What would be the point of burrow at that point? I'm not saying it's bad, earlier burrow might make a difference when trying to flank/crush his first group, but at the stage of the game it seems kinda pointless.
On October 30 2008 21:46 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote:
for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
Ultra ling is definitely the preferable tech choice IMO. + defiler if you can afford it of course. One of the nice benefits of this build is the super fast double ups you get, making ultra crack that much more effective at that point in the game.
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United States17042 Posts
On October 30 2008 18:16 Metaspace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 16:28 Misrah wrote:
Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.) Read my other post, broodling just does not work, and is not available before you'd get to ultras anyway. Show nested quote +
However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab.
I disagree. T can either raze your base faster than you can raze his (again, you cannot flank when going for his nat, you are not beeing terribly effective), or pincer you between his nat defenses and his ball, then you're fucked. Show nested quote +
Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time.
The way it went for me, when I had the gas to support lurkers in addition to hydra/ling, I had enough to transition to ultra anyway. Currently (in want of better opponents) large tank numbers where the only problem, and lurkers wont help there.
The countering response is the easiest- You should only do it if the time is right/T doesn't have enough forces to defend his natural. The way zvt usually progresses is that right after T moves out, T only leaves 2 firebats on the ramp (1 rax cc build), or a control of m/m to defend his natural (all depending on how T is playing). If this occurs, you should try to snipe the natural with your higher mobility, and then run away to fight another day. Getting up the ramp is a real pain, and you're right, you can't flank when running into the nat. Try not to get caught in between the ball and the forces in his nat/main. That would suck. But, scouting dependent, T might make a mistake that you should be able to exploit with your mobility.
If you go into a base razing game...well first of all, you should be able to reproduce units faster, throw up sunkens, etc. Second of all, obviously this should be prevented, but you can't theory out a counter for every single thing. I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I guess the dps argument would be that since you're producing higher dps units, you should be able to kill his buildings faster, and you should have more expansions, so T needs to move his ball further. Just for fun, on python at this point (first control group after 1 rax cc), you should have a third expansion just starting, or possibly up and running that he's going to try to take down first. If you have enough hydra to snipe the 2 firebats at his ramp, you take down all of his scv's @ his natural, possibly take his ramp, and have 3 sunkens morphing by the time he gets to your nat. Just one possible response, but at this point in the game (~40 supply for both? something like that) builds don't help that much.
Moving onto the broodling:
I think that you could only use broodling if you have the right number of queens to support it (and the apm to do it). The idea would be that it slows down ultra tech (more queens=more gas), but it allows you to retain map control (faster movement, makes lurkers much more effective). I think at this point in the build, you're making a lot of game time decisions, so general analysis won't help.
Remember that the idea of this build is to expand faster to force T to move out. If you have enough gas for enough queens and lurkers, you should probably be thinking about dark swarm, which is still lategame z's best friend. dark swarm > tank+m/m.
The weird thing about this build/idea is that it's highly dependent on what kind of game you're trying to play. If you kill the first T ball, that's great, you can either expand so that you have more forces, or tech so that you have dark swarm/ultras faster, or upgrade so that your units have more killing power. Is T going 2 fact tank? change your army composition so that you have more lings to get to the tank, make sure that you have a good flank, and you should still be able to kill the first ball. You actually still have a choice after you kill the ball- you can stay on lair tech (lurker/ling/scourge/hydra/queen off of hopefully 4 base at this point) or you can tech to hive, and hopefully expand again.
The transition from early game to midgame is actually easier in this build (lurk/ling/queen), and it lets you take midgame as late as you want. The transition into endgame is easy as well, because you already have the queens nest. The question that still needs to be worked out is when to transition into hive tech, such as dark swarm. I think that there are no easy timings for this build, and much less of an idea of when you can expand.
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On October 30 2008 22:25 Conquest101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 21:11 village_idiot wrote:This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain! So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras. Didn't the T have vessels out already? What would be the point of burrow at that point? I'm not saying it's bad, earlier burrow might make a difference when trying to flank/crush his first group, but at the stage of the game it seems kinda pointless.
The reason you use burrow is because the science vessels can irradiate your hydras during battle. The hydras clump together when they attack, so the irradiate harms many hydras at once. Essentially, the effect is similar to storm.
You can burrow the infected hydra so that it doesn't kill the whole group.
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if youre going to be burrowing hydras, just move them a closer and keep them attacking?
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I'm going to try out some variants of this strategy. I like the idea of using queens more and more. As I try it out, I'll post up some reps. I'm not very good at all though (D+), but hopefully I can reveal some strengths/weaknesses of the build.
I've always been a huge fan of ensnare + lurkers. At this point in the game, 10-11 years out, m&m micro has evolved so much that offensive lurkers do nothing unless you have an incredible flank and time your movements and burrows just right. Even then, Terran's are very adept at minimizing lurker damage. Ensnare and lurkers just seem to go together, as ensnare takes away m&m's ability to snipe a lurker, and quickly back off before lurker spines do any damage. I'd really like to see a SKZerg-style of play, with a growing cloud of queens ensnaring m&m and broodling'ing tanks, transitioning into a properly microed massive mid-game army of ling/hydra/lurker/scourge/queen and doing some real damage. In addition, queens are advantageous targets for irradiate, as they only cost 100 gas, compared to 125 gas lurkers, 150 gas defilers, and 200 gas ultras. Essentially, you get more mileage out of your gas if Terran keeps irradiating queens as opposed to other units.
It all sounds good on paper, but so far queens have been underused, and most strats involving them have failed. Maybe we can one day turn this theorycrafting into a viable strat.
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On October 31 2008 00:39 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 22:25 Conquest101 wrote:On October 30 2008 21:11 village_idiot wrote:This is why you have to research BURROW! At the 2 minute mark all those hydras die in vain! So PLEASE remember to get burrow if you try this strat. Think of your hydras. Didn't the T have vessels out already? What would be the point of burrow at that point? I'm not saying it's bad, earlier burrow might make a difference when trying to flank/crush his first group, but at the stage of the game it seems kinda pointless. The reason you use burrow is because the science vessels can irradiate your hydras during battle. The hydras clump together when they attack, so the irradiate harms many hydras at once. Essentially, the effect is similar to storm. You can burrow the infected hydra so that it doesn't kill the whole group.
just focus firing your irad'd hydra and killing it is alot better imo.
if you burrow 1 hydra that means that one of your hydras in your control group is burrowed, which means you can't attack-move with that control group anymore. additionally, the hotkey is 'u' - which - at least for me - is a bitch to press in the middle of battle (i hate lurkers. lol). and burrow costs money. killing it is just as fast if not faster. G_G
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yeahh~~
... you could always broodling the tank ...
the more i think about it the more i think broodling won't work too well. your queens should never be sitting at full energy.
... if the T ball moves out and you can't crush it then, you could counter the nat instead ...
If the nat is completely undefended then this is obviously the way to go. But if it has even a single control group of marines/meds sitting at it, i'd highly advise against it.
The whole idea behind this strategy is to 1) maintain map control to allow you to mass expand. and 2) put the T in a position where everytime he moves he has a chance of falling out of position.
By countering his nat you don't achieve either of these things. Sure, you might hurt his econ a little - hell you might hurt his econ a lot - but if it costs you 1/3rd of your army or more, you've effectively lost the ability to crush the T ball if it moves out of position, and you've lost map control.
One of the weaknesses of this strat is that unless you have his army severely outnumbered, your army composition is useless. Without lurkers for high damage splash, the chance of taking a T ball that is sitting outside your choke is impossible.
You should never give up middle-map control with this build.
However, i think that counter-drops would be a great alternative to countering the nat. You don't have to drop a huge amount of units (even 16 lings is good enough). Since you have queens you can assist your drop with one of them and ensnare any troops that are en-route back to base to defend it. You can also perhaps snipe the CC and steal it with your queen (not that u want the infested cc, it just takes out the cc that much faster - a 700dmg cc-specific nuke, if you will). It also have have a psychological benefit on your opponent as well. By using drops (and ensnare to make them that much more effective) your opponent may be put on tilt - he may recklessly start to move his Ball into the middle without giving it much thought. This is exactly what we want.
But where to fit in overlord speed/drops? hard to say. Probably after hive since crackling tech is way more solid/consistent than harrass/drops. So this would be more of a mid-late game transition tactic.
... since you have extra gas, why not make lurkers? ...
in the mid-late game this is not a bad idea. If the T has managed to secure 3 bases, and you have 4-6, i would say it would be a great idea to make some lurkers for a) defense (from drops or on ramps), and b) adding them to your own drops. But i don't think they are a good addition to the army composition. At this stage in the game you have tons of macro to maintain, you have queens that you need to micro, you have defilers that require you to baby-sit (and have 3 different abilities that will need consistent use), and you have more than 10 control groups of shit in the middle of the map. Throwing in a unit that needs to be well-positioned and needs to burrow is asking alot. It would be asking alot even for the multi-tasking of a zerg-bisu.
Any earlier than the mid-late game and i think the gas is completely wasted. You want 6-10 queens; you want hive tech and defilers as fast as you can; you [may] want a spire to counter vessels with scourge; or if not that, you will want to spend the extra gas on extra filers to make up for the ones that will inevitably be lost to irad; you'll want ultras (and many of them) to be the much-needed tanking unit to allow your lings/hydras to have enough time to damage the T. "extra gas" is a fraudulent term.
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How will this build work on maps where the Terran can secure a third expansion? I'm talking about a map with a min-only like Andromeda and Medusa.
If I have understood this build correctly, the essential idea is to have the whole map under control and the Terran sort of contained. By contained, I mean that every time Terran moves out, his army is attacked and Terran never reaches the point where he can pump out so much marimedi that he can steamroll the Zerg. And while this is not cost effective for the Zerg, the Zerg player only needs to buy time for his mass expansion Ultraling.
The idea is to keep Terran at main + natural.
Also, OP, when are you getting your comp back... it's been such a long time...
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i tried to try the build, but i coudnt.
First time i tried i faced a much better opponent. He gone one base and attacked me with some rines and an scv cousing economycal demage, than soon with 2 medics a bat and cuple rines, yet again forcing me to give up some of my economy, so i barely got my first hydras out, no ensnare yet and he came with a larger ball and destroyed me.
Second time, one base opening once again, this time mech, or at least it looked like. I made hydras so i denied his early vultures, than he massed wraith so i got to give up map control, i've got only a mineral only +my nat and tried to establish another base, however i had nt too much profit from it. He got early on siege tanks so he secured his base and his nat against my possible hydra counter. He kept harasing me with wraiths, killing up my overlords, drones, queens. i ensnard the wriaths build a spore or two here and there, picked up some of his wraiths but he really had an easy job pullin back above the cliffs, since my hydras coudnt really fin the path between my numerous buildings. He made up an army of siege tanks, vessels and mnm, and rolled me over, i hadnt too much ensnare because of the wraiths, my upgrades werent bad but my army size was poor bezuse i had to replace drones, and overlords continously and spend on static defence too (spore colony)
Third game, guess what happened, one base tech. yet he faked a FE this time, walling himself in at his nat and producing a couple rines. I took my 3th in order to keep up with the non-existent fast expantion of the T, who made dual-fact, an add-on researched vulture speed, came out with 4-6 vultures, i barely had a few hydras becuz of my 3th expo, and killed up half of my drones, stopped mining etc. I started to mass drones and units, however he pulled out with siege tanks and a few goliaths, vultures and desroyed me.
So i coudnt find out how this works against standard builds like 1 rax FE, fantasy build (without fake FE!!) or 2-3 rax pushes. I may try furhter on tough, but one thing pisses me off on iccup that i keep meting people with 200+ apm up to 400 at D, D+, C- level. Ok they spam and everyhing, still, you cant spam a 15 min long game and still win.
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lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.<
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On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.<
So did you win?
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United States17042 Posts
On October 31 2008 03:53 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.< So did you win?
or at least record a rep?
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On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.<
LOL THAT'S AWESOME
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On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.<
Misrah should be proud, his build is used all around the world 
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On October 31 2008 04:12 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 03:53 village_idiot wrote:On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.< So did you win? or at least record a rep?
well I won, but didn'T save the rep.
This game was on python, me 12, he 3 o'clock position.
Basically he couldn't get the build work at all, he said he was doing it for the first time.
I played standard 1 rax FE. When I scanned no spire, I built one more bunker and I moved out with 1 firebat, 11 marines , 4 medics to pressure. Meanwhile I scouted his expansion to the right bottom corner, so I went there with the group, there were some sunkens there and I saw mass hydras, so I didn't attack the expo just stood on that ramp thing on bottom right, but he couldn't kill even that little group with mass hydras.
A bit later I moved out with 2 control mm with a LOT of medics and 3 tanks 1 vessel, sieged his natural and gg. He ensnared my marines but it basically didn't do anything as I was already standing in his door.
I guess this works very poorly on close positions. So if you scout the terran with your first ovi, don't do this build!
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Ok first off- holyshitsuddenmasslongpostwithrepscan'tkeepup!!! But this is a good thing!
First off thank you all for wasting more of your time on this build, either through critique, or replays. you have no idea how great-full I am.
Also SHOUT OUT goes to Rucky: Specific thanks because now i can actually see other peoples game play, instead of just reading about it. But now I'm going to have to pick apart your build (nothing personal of course. )
Ok so basically my critique of Rucky's play:
1. Hatcheries: Ok i cannot stress how important mass hatching is with this build. The build idea is to make mass low tier units, QUICKLY in order to do so you are going to need mass hatcheries. in the early game, all minerals should be going to drones and hatcheries. If you need to save up for a second or two to get 300 minerals do it. (Remember 4 hatch before gas) The slight lapse in production will more than make up for its self in the long run. Try to not make any sunkens or lings in the early game. Remember this build is all about trying to squeeze out every second of time terran is willing to give you, so your econ and production can be that much stronger. Ideally when T is makes his first "baby push" with a handful of rines and 1-2 medics, you should only start producing a counter attack when you see them move out. (hopefully you have enough hatches where you can suddenly switch from drone mass to hydra/ling mass for a short while- and with these units kill of the push) You don't want to have a mass of units sitting and waiting for the baby push to come. Basically why build the lings now, when your not going to need them till later?
2.Expanding! Your natural expo comes at 12 hatch, and people have suggested that your 3rd (i say min only because it is less predictable) expo should happen with your 4th hatchery- at 16-18. After this point, you can make 1-2 more hatches in your main- but other than that, you should ALWAYS have an expansion going somewhere on the map. If you decide to not take your 3rd expo with your 4th hatch then, when you do finally expo- don't take your gas first!!! remember this build is very mineral intensive. You want MANY hatcheries, and MANY drones (both of which cost minerals) so your booming econ can quickly mass low tier ground units. Also, don't forget to transfer your drones to your new expos. More minerals you have mining = the more efficient you can become. With this build, over saturation is possible, and is something that you should try and avoid.
3. Drone Whoring- simply enough, when you win a battle- make more drones for a second, when you see that terran is expanding, make more drones, in the early game make as many drones as you can (or that you feel safe with. remember the more drones that you have early game, the easier mid/late game will be) Once again, mass hatch comes into play- because if you have 5-8 hatch and you all tell them to make drones that is 15 drones straight up- very quickly. After wards go straight back to pumping low tier ground units.
4. Attacking: Ok well rucky- I have to say that you did take care of his ball (kind of) if it wasn't for your fast hive rush i don't think you would have been able to have held out. On the other hand tho, your initial battle could have gone over soooo much better. While you did get the ensnare off, you failed to have your army move in at the same time. Don't send them in bit by bit- you want a wave of units to come in all at once, maximizing your surface area. Also you could have waited until terran was more in the open (considering that you were playing on python) i would think that it would have been better to attack when his back wasn't against the wall.
other than that, i have to say that (considering this is your first or so time playing this build) you did well! You won! lol
On October 30 2008 18:16 Metaspace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 16:28 Misrah wrote:
Broodling: To be honest, i have yet to use this heavily when i have played this build. (i say yet because i plan to do so when my computer comes back.) Read my other post, broodling just does not work, and is not available before you'd get to ultras anyway. Show nested quote +
However this is a good idea, the countering is certainly viable. Your army is faster, and you can re-make a new army in seconds. So counter the nat when T moves. Basically this build could threaten a super back stab.
I disagree. T can either raze your base faster than you can raze his (again, you cannot flank when going for his nat, you are not beeing terribly effective), or pincer you between his nat defenses and his ball, then you're fucked. Show nested quote +
Now about the broodling and lurker idea, i would like to say that you *should* have enough gas to both support queens and lurkers at this time.
The way it went for me, when I had the gas to support lurkers in addition to hydra/ling, I had enough to transition to ultra anyway. Currently (in want of better opponents) large tank numbers where the only problem, and lurkers wont help there.
Well i have one thing to say: Your right on all accounts.
I had doubted the queen play (like i have said- never tried it before) The countering, is so situationally dependent that i am not going to count it out- I never meant that you should ALWAYS go for this type of maneuver- i just thought that everyone should realize that this is indeed an option.
Now that i think about it, what would i rather have- a luker? or an ultra. For some reason I'm just going to go with my gut and say ultra? Indeed i agree once again that getting that fast hive should be the focal point of this build, and i think is a much better "waste" of gas.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote:
for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
As for this idea- any thoughts? Right now I am leaning towards, I love this idea? but who knows.... Seems like a much better counter to SK than going fast ultra no?
On October 30 2008 21:46 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 21:24 DarkSaieden wrote:
for late game against 2 port/pure SK, would it be viable to just add defilers and use mostly hydra/defiler/queen and lings for flank/consume/sneaky crackling drops? micro would be much easier than almost any other anti-MM-ball. just hold hydras, swarm on hydras, ensare MM/vessels and then.. PLAGUUU! then eitther rinse repeat, or mop up right there
In this situation Ultraling + the occasional defiler is still miles better. Ultraling is easier to micro which gives you more time to macro.
village_idiot & Conquest101 obviously think this idea is no good- any collaborators here? once again- I/We/this build needs GROUP opinion and experience.
On October 30 2008 18:09 Metaspace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2008 12:08 Too_MuchZerg wrote:My poor tryout of this queen tactic a bit modified though+ Show Spoiler +
Do not take any big points out of it (we are both C-) and DO NOT copy my play (forgot transfer back late game my drones to 2nd expansion)
But basically opponent tried to do tank drop (othello) but failed. Then he gathered big mob of m&m and tanks with little vessel support, semi flank killed it barely (with hydra) and used queen so late t_T. Then I managed to defend twice his push and game ends.
He used d-matrix like mad man, but ultras chewed him up finally.
What I noticed: - Too much gas, not enough minerals. You failed to drone saturate your 3rd properly. That cost your macro significantly.
- You made way too many early lings. That too cost your macro signifcantly. If you had invested those mins into economy, you'd have been more ahead (i.e., make a 4th, or another evo)
- You made queens too late, and were not able to use ensnare when T moved out with his ball at 11:00. Your flanking was (as you said yourself) bad, consisted essentially of pure hydra, while you simultaneously wasted all your lings trying to crack his bunkered nat in a backstab attempt.
- at 13:00, you take out his second ball, again without using ensare, and having no lings in your mix. You succed, although with higher losses than needed. Then you lose your units trying to crack his nat (again).
- After that you switch to ultra/ling. Despite no proper flanking, not using more than 1 Ensnare the whole game, you win :-)
They way I see this build, you should always attack with a mix of hydra AND ling (I use mixed control groups to ease that); and you should NOT recklessly attack the T's nat (or any fortified position you cannot flank). I found containing works well (providing enough open space in front of the T to be able to flank nicely), while abusing map control. Final random thoughts:I presume the build can me made more effective if you succeed in faking a 3 hatch muta. The idea would be to place 3rd hatch "hidden" within main, and to place the initial evo/queen's nest there, and buying a decoy spire right after lair. The problem is getting rid of T's scout (with slow lings) for this to work of course. Also, the decoy spire slows down the build, but would be well offset by the T making less tanks (which is what you want), and building turrets. BTW you could then still go muta later, I just wondered how it would be if T had to defend his main vs. muta harass with ensnared m&m :-)
Ok once again, yet another good idea- going for a fake 3hatch muta, but then some time during the late game going for a quick 12-14 muta ball (with queen) and infesting their CC? ideas? Thoughts?
My opinion: Candidly- i don't think you are going to have the minerals, or gas to make your "fake muta rush" Also think of it this way, if terran spots your spire- they are going to get turrets, and all of those things. They will defiantly use less tanks, and have less rax. I agree with this. But once again it all falls back on, if your wasting the money/time/drones to build spire- dose terran lose the same for reacting to the spire? On the same note- going for a mid-late game 12-14 muta ball into their main, and infesting their CC would be EPIC so idk.
On October 31 2008 03:16 village_idiot wrote:
How will this build work on maps where the Terran can secure a third expansion? I'm talking about a map with a min-only like Andromeda and Medusa.
If I have understood this build correctly, the essential idea is to have the whole map under control and the Terran sort of contained. By contained, I mean that every time Terran moves out, his army is attacked and Terran never reaches the point where he can pump out so much marimedi that he can steamroll the Zerg. And while this is not cost effective for the Zerg, the Zerg player only needs to buy time for his mass expansion Ultraling.
The idea is to keep Terran at main + natural.
Also, OP, when are you getting your comp back... it's been such a long time...
Ahh well *hopefully* next weekend i should have it back in my dorm. once again i am sorry- I promise to start pulling my weight around here once i get my computer back. In the mean time thanks again guys for taking up my slack.
As for the 3 base, well you can Instantly secure your third, and have 3 min patches- and you don't have to defend any more expos. The increased mineral patches means that your high rate and heavy saturation of drones will be even more efficient. It will take terran more time/ resources to get his third CC- if he choses this route, he is giving zerg more time, for more expos.
On October 31 2008 04:42 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.< Misrah should be proud, his build is used all around the world
Well hey- don't forget you guys have all played a part in this too- so I defiantly shouldn't be the only proud one. I just brought you guys a steaming pile of crap. TL community has shaped it into something beautiful- and possibly something deadly!!! Gogogogog TL group project "Cocaine Style"
But on another note it looks like our T friend crushed him  so a lose much sadness for the swarm!
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On October 31 2008 02:56 Mora wrote:yeahh~~ the more i think about it the more i think broodling won't work too well. your queens should never be sitting at full energy. Show nested quote + ... if the T ball moves out and you can't crush it then, you could counter the nat instead ... If the nat is completely undefended then this is obviously the way to go. But if it has even a single control group of marines/meds sitting at it, i'd highly advise against it. The whole idea behind this strategy is to 1) maintain map control to allow you to mass expand. and 2) put the T in a position where everytime he moves he has a chance of falling out of position. By countering his nat you don't achieve either of these things. Sure, you might hurt his econ a little - hell you might hurt his econ a lot - but if it costs you 1/3rd of your army or more, you've effectively lost the ability to crush the T ball if it moves out of position, and you've lost map control. One of the weaknesses of this strat is that unless you have his army severely outnumbered, your army composition is useless. Without lurkers for high damage splash, the chance of taking a T ball that is sitting outside your choke is impossible. You should never give up middle-map control with this build. However, i think that counter-drops would be a great alternative to countering the nat. You don't have to drop a huge amount of units (even 16 lings is good enough). Since you have queens you can assist your drop with one of them and ensnare any troops that are en-route back to base to defend it. You can also perhaps snipe the CC and steal it with your queen (not that u want the infested cc, it just takes out the cc that much faster - a 700dmg cc-specific nuke, if you will). It also have have a psychological benefit on your opponent as well. By using drops (and ensnare to make them that much more effective) your opponent may be put on tilt - he may recklessly start to move his Ball into the middle without giving it much thought. This is exactly what we want. But where to fit in overlord speed/drops? hard to say. Probably after hive since crackling tech is way more solid/consistent than harrass/drops. So this would be more of a mid-late game transition tactic. in the mid-late game this is not a bad idea. If the T has managed to secure 3 bases, and you have 4-6, i would say it would be a great idea to make some lurkers for a) defense (from drops or on ramps), and b) adding them to your own drops. But i don't think they are a good addition to the army composition. At this stage in the game you have tons of macro to maintain, you have queens that you need to micro, you have defilers that require you to baby-sit (and have 3 different abilities that will need consistent use), and you have more than 10 control groups of shit in the middle of the map. Throwing in a unit that needs to be well-positioned and needs to burrow is asking alot. It would be asking alot even for the multi-tasking of a zerg-bisu. Any earlier than the mid-late game and i think the gas is completely wasted. You want 6-10 queens; you want hive tech and defilers as fast as you can; you [may] want a spire to counter vessels with scourge; or if not that, you will want to spend the extra gas on extra filers to make up for the ones that will inevitably be lost to irad; you'll want ultras (and many of them) to be the much-needed tanking unit to allow your lings/hydras to have enough time to damage the T. "extra gas" is a fraudulent term.
Mora- with your argument against lurkers, i have to agree. Cannot argue with the logic of the argument. TOO MUCH APM. i have in my above post, come around to the idea of throwing out lurkers (minus a few lategame for defense of expos) to fast ultra. Once again, if you can make it to late game with this build your economy is so insane and your production so crazy that anything is possible.
I love this build late game- Ultra ling? Sure then- Mass muta? ok mass hydra? Drops? Man terran is just not going to be able to keep up! (hopefully)
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On October 31 2008 04:53 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 04:12 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:On October 31 2008 03:53 village_idiot wrote:On October 31 2008 03:33 freelander wrote:
lol i was pubbing on europe and started playing tvz.
It was very strange, I scanned his base, i saw queen's nest and he made a lot of hydras.
chat:
- well , is this the zerg build from tl.net with queens?
- yes it is >.< So did you win? or at least record a rep? well I won, but didn'T save the rep. This game was on python, me 12, he 3 o'clock position. Basically he couldn't get the build work at all, he said he was doing it for the first time. I played standard 1 rax FE. When I scanned no spire, I built one more bunker and I moved out with 1 firebat, 11 marines , 4 medics to pressure. Meanwhile I scouted his expansion to the right bottom corner, so I went there with the group, there were some sunkens there and I saw mass hydras, so I didn't attack the expo just stood on that ramp thing on bottom right, but he couldn't kill even that little group with mass hydras. A bit later I moved out with 2 control mm with a LOT of medics and 3 tanks 1 vessel, sieged his natural and gg. He ensnared my marines but it basically didn't do anything as I was already standing in his door. I guess this works very poorly on close positions. So if you scout the terran with your first ovi, don't do this build!
Who ever played you just needs to practice more. How many times have you used 1rax FE? Do you remember how bad you were when you first tried it?
Remember guys/gals this is your first few or firs few dozen times playing a build. Your not going to get it right, it's not going to be perfect. Don't forget that you are playing people who have used a BO (like 1 rax FE) and practiced this build hundreds if not thousands of times!!
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actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying.
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EPT
