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On November 01 2008 00:08 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 08:14 Misrah wrote:On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote:
actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying. so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter. I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings? I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU. I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created.  i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option. However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
Just post the build ffs?
I doubt you'll somehow make ZvT magically harder with your build, since it's 99.999999999% likely it's something that's been done/is done.
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Ok well, just some of my thoughts, the zvp version, lings and mutas seems rather normal. Can be countered with archons etc..
but the ZvT idea sounds interesting, I often do this zvt version for my zvp. Minus the queens generally. Although I could see the concepts behind this build working, I've used queens before and I do understand how they fare. The hatchery count makes it interesting. I think it would be rather hard to really maximize the econ being that hydras and lings are soo cheap, like late game.
I find a problem where what happens when T has a really large army of mnm and rolls over your army once or twice, making you having to replenish, although fast, it seems really difficult for one to match a large mnm force. I think it's really easy to lose most your army due to a small micro error, without taking out much of terran. Like in lurker ling zvt, lurkers can still hold back t after losing your force a few times, where as hydra ling may not..
Also I see a weakness to the power of upgraded tanks vs even your max upgraded units. For example w hat do you do against Blue storm zvt, where t takes the half of the map with the ramp. It seems almost impossible to break that with pure hydra ling. (ok queen broodling would be hot, but that seems rather hard to do, queens melt so fast to mnm and the 150 energy..)
It's going to be hard killing dropships with a later or nonexistent spire. Especially if your forces are out of position. Something like a double dropship, can really be hard to deal with.
As you said they should be used to trade armies, and in order to do that you have to stay outside your base. Sure good scouting etc.. can counter that. I'm just saying ling hydra may have some problems when you're caught out of position.
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On November 01 2008 01:10 Conquest101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2008 00:08 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 31 2008 08:14 Misrah wrote:On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote:
actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying. so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter. I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings? I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU. I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created. i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option. However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway. Just post the build ffs? I doubt you'll somehow make ZvT magically harder with your build, since it's 99.999999999% likely it's something that's been done/is done.
it's possible that it has been done before, but since it's isnt my build i wont post. Altough i dont think this BO existed, because it's a variation of another build. Like fantasy is a variation of the vulture into goliath+tank.
EDIT: sry if i rised your interest, forgot about it.
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On October 31 2008 18:00 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 11:27 Misrah wrote:
Ohh- about that. Just commenting on Rucky's youtube video. He gets a crazy fast hive, after semi spoiling terrans mid game 3tank 1 vessel push.
i just watched the game. my thoughts: This wasn't the strategy discussed on here at all. This was 2base fast hive tech. We can discuss the merits of such a strategy in a different thread. In the meantime i am going to imagine accurate situations relative to the general pacing of this game and cocain zerg. what the terran should have done differently: - The terran made tons of turrets when there were no muta coming. That money could have been spent on making his mid-early game army bigger.
- If you're not going muta, the terran should contain you as soon as possible with his initial group of marines while scouting for an expo. Once he finds expo he should take his containing army and attack it.
- I do think it is possible to produce an army during this time period in order to save your expo - but this puts your drone production on hold; in the meantime the Terran economy is still escalating. This is the most crucial part of the build (and what i believe to be the absolute most difficult part of the build: you must switch between economy and army production at the exact right times. Any error on this front will either lose you the game or put you significantly behind an opponent who has equal macro.
The nucleus of the strategy resides on responding to Terran movements and Terran production - or, in practical terms: precise scouting. The Early Game
- Scouting
- with overlords (including sacrificing them to do so) as required.
- Perhaps getting burrow to allow lings to sit in key locations before vessels are out
- Using lings to constantly monitor the size of his mobile force
- The Zerg needs to entice the Terran out of his base as early as possible. You want to keep his army count down as much as possible - which means luring him out when you're army can beat it.
- The zerg may do this by expoing agressively. The timing of when you build your army to defend your agressive expoing is crucial which you depend on scouting to indicate.
- The zerg may want to show hydra tech to entice the Terran to try to contain. By getting lings out before his contain moves into place, and again massing at the right time (as soon as he starts moving) you can pincer his attack in your choke point.
- The zerg may - though risky - mass units early game and feign an attack on the terran losing a control group-ish amount of lings and retreating. If he takes the bait you slay his army. If he doesn't take the bait you've taken a major econ hit.
- "Defenseless overlords" - by placing an overlord in his choke as bait, and a 2nd overlord within sight range of that overlord, he may try to kill both the defenseless ovies. If he goes for the second overlord, he's lost his army. This obviously suffers the same problem as above - if he doesn't take the bait, and you've produced an army that can kill him if he does, you're behind in econ.
The Mid Game
- Assuming that you've played the early-mid game correctly the terran has been bitten at least once, and should be a little wary to move out.
- He should be nearly done solidifying his first Ball, and is getting ready to move out. Alternatively, your econ should be up and kicking and you're now focusing on massing an army.
- This is when your queens will come into play (so you better have some). The second he moves out you ensnare him and wait for him to either a) move out of position and you rape his ass (again), or b) remain passive and attempt to secure an expansion
- You won't be able to stop him from taking a close expansion (unless of course he moves out of position to do so - which was option a from the point above.) That's fine though - you're expanding and teching.
- Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
- If you've been successful thus far, the Terran is reluctant to move out until he feels confident that the quantity of his units makes up for their lack of mobillity. The whole point of this stage of the game is to stall for hive tech.
- Somewhere inbetween Mid and Late game you will want to start integrating drops. These will help hurt his macro and keep him on tilt. If you take out a few structures or force him to retreat with part of his army, he may become restless with his Ball and want to counter attack moving himself foolishly out of position. Remember to use your queens to ensnare the incoming base-liberators for extra psychological effect!
The Late Game
- The strongest part of this strat is the late game. You've controlled the map which has allowed you to obtain many expansions. You're tech is at the highest tier and just needs fleshing out where needed. Your macro has been in full force for quite some time, and if you've managed to survive this long then you've bared your teeth and bitten him on a few occasions.
- You should have defilers out and in position to use dark swarm as needed. Plague should be researching.
- You'll want to grab lurker tech for easy defense. You'll want to throw down a spire for scourge. You'll want to be throwing down an ultra den (the bigger your advantage in economy, the sooner you should have ultras. if your economy is not significantly ahead, defilers are much more integral to your arseanl. Do not forgo defilers/plague in lieu of ultras.
- Don't forget your queens. Even if you're spending your mana on MASS parasiting to keep your scouting up (and him busy curing it) or saving your mana on your 12 queens to broodling-massacre his tanks, your queens are an awesome boon in any battle.
The rest is up to you!
See mora, this is why I need people like you, superiorwolf, and attackzerg, giving me criticisms. You guys can take everything i try and say-mix in your experience, condense it, and make it sound so much better. Thanks! :D
I am just going to try and re-iterate, or something to that effect.
The Cocaine style is all about playing risky, and till the last second. In the early game, every single drone you can produce without having to build an army is going to help you that much more. Not building any attacking units till you absolutely have to is also something that is going to put you farther and farther ahead. Getting as many expos as fast as you can, fully saturated will put you farther and farther ahead.
The difference between a chobo and gosu playing this strat is this: The chobo will make more attacking units, at times he doesn't need them. So that way, he can feel more secure, and ready when the T pushes. In the short term- the chobo is secure and has produced an army. However in the long term he is making the strongest part of this build (the late game) weaker and weaker. The gosu player, through proper scouting, game sense and understanding the timings of zvt will make less attacking units. The gosu will only dedicate himself to building attacking units when the time is absolutely necessary. The gosu player in doing this will help this build get to it's strongest point- late-game faster, and with a higher economy. If this is the case, all is lost for the T player. Because there is no way he would be able to come back from such a large economic deficit.
On another note- Attackzerg and superiorwolf: Where are you? I miss your battle reports. It makes my day far less entertaining 
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On November 01 2008 00:08 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 08:14 Misrah wrote:On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote:
actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying. so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter. I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings? I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU. I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created. i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option. However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway.
Geo.Rion, I really think you're being very snotty and acting like you know the answer to TvZ. If you're going to act like you have the perfect build, why not let us know? Your reasoning is really bad imo
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On November 01 2008 05:25 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2008 00:08 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 31 2008 08:14 Misrah wrote:On October 31 2008 06:22 Geo.Rion wrote:
actually this build has a pretty much perfect, not all-in, not wierd counter build, however i wont give out terran TvZ BOs, since T is only my second race after Zerg, and the build does not belongs to me, but to a friend of mine who's much better than me.
I still think it may be a viable option, so i will keep trying. so what are you trying to say? Every build has a counter. I just feel that (if this build becomes viable actually) that this build may be a great way to confuse terran. Is Z going fast lurker? (if you face a spire) Is Z going fast Muta? Or with the increased hatch- is Z going all in lings? I think that this build will help to open the options zerg has against terran in the ZVT MU. I would be interesting in listening to what your Terran friend has to say about this counter he has created. i agree with almost everythin you just wrote above, i dint say this build isn't good, or isn't a valouros add to the Z BO's, i said it's a viable option. However it is countered by an already existent build, which i use when i feel my mechanics are working well. This build i'm talking about is disiegned to kill the Zergs who arent going mutalisks (or massmass zerglings early on, bout who the hell goes for that), and still is very good against the muta play too. Of course this build as every other may have his counter too, and becauzse i played against it i have some tought how it can be deflected, but with this bo i kill up zergs who are better than me statisticly, in rank, and APM. For sure it's nothing overpowered, but to me it seems just too easy (or maybe i have some hidden talent for T, and i'm a fool for sticking with the Zergs, lol). yet again i wont write it down, ZvT is hard enough anyway. Geo.Rion, I really think you're being very snotty and acting like you know the answer to TvZ. If you're going to act like you have the perfect build, why not let us know? Your reasoning is really bad imo
i would underline once again one of my statements
" Of course this build as every other may have his counter too"
And i also apologized for rising the interest for no reason. And no, i don not know the answe for TvZ. I said only that there is a build which would be quite good against this one, and i prefer to use it vs anythin. For others 9pool in Zv anythink, may be the perfect opening no matter what, for others the fast nexus/cc and so on... It's a buld that siuts me, forgot about it, i regret telling what i told
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this is rather lame from you..
anyway not every build has a counter. the builds which are called standard don't really have any counter.
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On November 01 2008 06:35 freelander wrote:
this is rather lame from you..
anyway not every build has a counter. the builds which are called standard don't really have any counter.
uh. yes they do.
if you 1 rax FE and i 6pool, your face is going to get raped.
Standard builds are standard because they're safe and can adapt as needed. Some builds are more felxible than others - but every build has a counter.
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Misrah I think you should update OP with what Mora wrote x) This is awesome!
@Mora
- Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
What do you think about few lings (6-8?) at places where T can drop to scare it out or intercept it (when Dropship starts unloading)?
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On November 01 2008 08:54 beetlelisk wrote:Misrah I think you should update OP with what Mora wrote x) This is awesome! @Mora Show nested quote +- Your scouting is no less important at this stage in the game. The best counter to a contain is to be agressive without having to go through it: dropships. Your lack of scourge requires your overlords to be in well placed positions around the map, and for zerglings to be patrolling on popular air-routes.
What do you think about few lings (6-8?) at places where T can drop to scare it out or intercept it (when Dropship starts unloading)?
Absolutely. I would probably have a mobile group of units in place for anti-drops in each 'main' (able to run to the expo if that's the direction the drop is headed.) You can't have too many of these groups though as you need as many units controlling the mid as possible.
Another cute trick that i've seen are 6-8 hydras waiting to intercept incoming drops - except that they're burrowed. You pop up just as he hovers over your hydras and you've completed raped his plan! he can't even escape with his ship to try a 2nd attempt!
It really is all about scouting though. you have many ways to effectively deal with drops - but you need to know when they are coming and where they are going first.
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Updates complete. Mora i hope you don't mind- that i put your work on the OP. Pm if you don't like it or whatever.
As for the rest of you-
I would also like to update and start keeping a library of replays using this build. I will of course be updating the library frequently with my own replays (once i can start playing ). If you would like your replays added to the Op to start the "Cocaine library" please let me know.
Now only if some great zerg player would post- CHILL, INCONTROL where are youuuuuuuu?
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zerg on dr. pepper 
in all seriousness though, I'm quite interested in what some experienced players can do with this build.
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On November 01 2008 06:35 freelander wrote:
this is rather lame from you..
anyway not every build has a counter. the builds which are called standard don't really have any counter.
On November 01 2008 06:35 freelander wrote:
this is rather lame from you..
anyway not every build has a counter. the builds which are called standard don't really have any counter.
standard builds are the easiest to counter. They don't have preticular weaknesses bot they are predictable. There are so many builds that counter let's say 3 hatch muta, that it hurts. Lomo wraiths are disegned against it, a dual port wraith with buyin a drophsip instead of the 4th wraith, and many many others. Like fantasy build, if you dont have hydras against vultures, you're in a pretty deep shit. 2 sunks may not be enough, they hardly cover the mineral line.
So i should say "this is rather lame from you.."
And the point i was trying to make, and you apparently ignore it, is that i don't see this build becoming the recplacment of 3 hatch mutas, but it may become a viable build, so i really apretiate all those peoples who are working on it, i tried to help by telling my experiences so far, when i was going for this.
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On October 31 2008 06:28 Mora wrote:
asdf where did chill go?
he needs to play
pm him
IF YOU DARE!
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i've played more games with chill than i have any other player.
im just waiting to install my sc to challenge him myself!
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I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
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And island-expo corners! Would making 2nd Lair for faster doom drops be always over-stretching?
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On November 02 2008 02:45 Superiorwolf wrote:
I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
Finally your back!
4 hatch pool? lol and you live. Nice play there. As for the drops- i think that you bring up a good point superiorwolf. if your natural is cliffable or not is a big deal and i think that we should look into this problem. i think that we should instead go for drops, and simply drop our units onto our cliffs to handle any cliffing. I prefer this method to getting a spire because then, with drop teck you should also be able to use it for harassing their bases as well. On the other hand tho, getting a spire is faster, but is it more effective? I think that getting 12-14 muta here and there and then running to their main or nat CC with a queen and infesting it would be epic. So idk. What do you think guys? Getting drop teck? or Spire? Of course this argument is totaly pointless on maps that don't have a cliffable nat or main.
You also found a use for infested terrans? lol <3 infested terrans. Sounds like a nice game superior!
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On November 01 2008 18:01 Mora wrote:
i've played more games with chill than i have any other player.
im just waiting to install my sc to challenge him myself!
Good luck Mora!
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EPT
