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[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 14

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-05 06:15:07
November 05 2008 05:44 GMT
#261
Found this game today:

http://www.replayhome.com:8080/sc/replay-87604.html

Unfortunately this Terran goes mech instead of m&m, so we don't get to see ensnare/hydra/ling go up against the ball, but hey, they're right there before your very eyes: QUEENS.

This terran is no chump either, I'd say at least C level

EDIT: wow this is exactly how to play ZvT against mech with queens:

1) fast hydras + fast upgrades (move/speed/attack/carapace)
2) expo all over the map (5 bases by the 11-minute mark)
3) fast queens (fast enough so that the queens have 150 energy to broodling the tanks by the time terran comes with first push)
4) queens broodling tanks, hydras clean up the gols
5) super fast hive for quick defiler teching (although he didn't even really need them LOL)
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 05 2008 06:49 GMT
#262
On November 05 2008 13:23 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2008 12:43 Rucky wrote:
The idea of this build is this:
Lurker > Marines, but with good terran players, lurkers do virtually no damage.
Hydra-ling < Marine and Medics, but with UPGRADES and HIGH production it is more likely that Hydra-ling = Marine Medics.
The point is to have a huge economic lead while trading off your army with their army.
If it is successful, zerg can rebuild army faster than terran can.

What I have been reading is people who follows this build dead on without changing up when the terran changes. Also, people seem to think that hydras are being overestimated against drops and sci vessels. What i think is that people are underestimating the queen. If you're going to upgrade the queen, you're not just going to build one! Queens are fast! I like to use them to scout terran's base and given that they won't build turrets because there are no mutas or lurkers, you can know exactly when terran builds a sci vessel. Here you have to change it up and put down a spire. For better players, I think it was possible to do without a spire, since yes hydras can't be everywhere and it would be stupid to put them at every base. But with queens, you can use them as spotters and ensare/parasite dropships or vessels. If you know where they are headed, you can intercept with hydras. If you ensnare them and slow them down, you can run hydras in to snipe.

If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.

For me:
I usually get a 3rd base with my 3rd or 4th hatch before gas like the Misrah said.
I try to build a versatile army quickly (get speed for lings) and run around both 3rd base and nat and try to attack when terran is moving.
With 3 bases, minerals flows in fast.

Personal Experiences:
1)Terran only irradiate hydras which is funny to laugh at when they only cost 75/25. you don't have anything expensive for them to irradiate.
2)When attacking terran's natural, with hydras you can actually snipe the ledge seige tanks when they fire at you. With a lurker ling army, blocked ramp and ledge seige tanks will kill your attack. This is mid-game before swarms.
3)Right after i trade armies successfully, I just mass units from 5-6 hatches and a-move ftw. If they lose their army they lose the game, because they can't produce as fast.
4)Aggravate before battle. I use hydra range and speed to attack m&m then run away repeatedly before a battle so that medics would use up a lot of their energy. Hopefully all...
5)Battling. From having my army wiped out so many times, i learned that you should attack with hydras first. (i send lings in they all die and hydras don't have enough dmg to kill m&m while they're being healed) Hydras tank, Lings kill! Terran can micro and change targets to lings, but they'll lose time since their units move slower with ensnare.

I just want to say this build is not perfect and will not work every game versus every build. Since the converse of what i said is also true. If zerg can't successfully trade armies and their army keeps getting bigger, zerg has a high chance of losing, unless zerg gets to hive tech.

Most problems with this build is defending the early push from terran when zerg is drone whoring. Even with Misrah saying to not build sunkens, IF you're going to LOSE then POP those sunkens UP. if you get the sunkens right before they attack your natural, and assuming you've been drone whoring before getting those sunkens, your economic advantage is already secured! Let's say terran has the biggest possible early push like 1 base multirax. If you can defend with 4+ sunkens and mass lings from your hatch, then you won the game. Think if you're at an advantage to begin with, if you survive you win. (unless they're just wayyyyy better than you)

I'll end this on a negative note that this build totally fails if you are contained.....................SAD


You're giving up pressure on Terran which allows him to macro as you are trying to do. So, you're both high on productions and Terrans always get upgrades. Both equal. I guess I don't see how adequate Terran macro loses to this build.


Once again if you would read the rest of this thread, you would find that this plays perfectly into my build philosophy. Zerg shouldn't have to harrass terran, terran should harrass zerg. Think about it- zerg produces faster, and can grow the fastest economy. Zerg can produce a numnericaly superior army faster than any other race. This build tries to ecentuate the zerg race characteristics to the fullest.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
November 05 2008 07:22 GMT
#263
yes to misrah and i'll quote myself:
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.


say it in a cocky way "let's see who wins in the end ;P" *big smile*

I was saying this in an obvious way that of course zerg can macro and grow faster than terran can...zerg is like a exponential function to terran's power function. (sorry about the math, i'm mathy)
So if terran doesn't care and macros safely zerg will go out of hand. Terran has to do something and Zerg's job is to defend. As i said earlier, if zerg can defend, zerg will win with the economic advantage.
Beyond the Game
SWPIGWANG
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada482 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-05 08:05:32
November 05 2008 08:03 GMT
#264
Zerg numbers may grow faster, but Terran grows into critical mass.... Traditional muta play uses aggression to precisely limit terran size. Of course, stupid T that kills their own force early makes no difference.

Zerg probably have the weakest 200/200 army in the game....

I wonder what would happen if this build goes up against triple expo terran. (with the timing involved, they could do this fine with a bunkers or two)
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-05 10:40:17
November 05 2008 10:39 GMT
#265
It's not going to be 200/200 zerg vs 200/200 terran.

Zerg's not going to macro the whole game like a mindless drone and never attack...If you give zerg so much time he can use any build. Let's see...i think there's something called dark swarms that if zerg attacks terran in their bases nat, main, expos with dark swarm their's pretty much nothing terran can do. And there's always guardians from a far. HMMM guardians have a critical mass too.

I'm just talking crazy hypothetical stuff, but seriously Zerg will attack at some point ready or not. And like I said before, people should not follow builds like a zombie. This build is a lot to do with scouuting. If terran mass expos, only a dumbass will sit there continuing there build and not stop the expos. If someone is that predictable to follow the build exactly, yes terran can expand early, but why would a terran expand without knowing that this build is happening. This build starts out pretty standard.
Beyond the Game
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 05 2008 13:39 GMT
#266
On November 05 2008 19:39 Rucky wrote:
It's not going to be 200/200 zerg vs 200/200 terran.

Zerg's not going to macro the whole game like a mindless drone and never attack...If you give zerg so much time he can use any build. Let's see...i think there's something called dark swarms that if zerg attacks terran in their bases nat, main, expos with dark swarm their's pretty much nothing terran can do. And there's always guardians from a far. HMMM guardians have a critical mass too.

I'm just talking crazy hypothetical stuff, but seriously Zerg will attack at some point ready or not. And like I said before, people should not follow builds like a zombie. This build is a lot to do with scouuting. If terran mass expos, only a dumbass will sit there continuing there build and not stop the expos. If someone is that predictable to follow the build exactly, yes terran can expand early, but why would a terran expand without knowing that this build is happening. This build starts out pretty standard.


yay another person understands!!!!! All is not lost! :D
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
November 05 2008 14:32 GMT
#267
So when will you add replays ? Many people have offered me strategys or tips , but i listen to them if they backup their words with actual examples to see if it is worth focusing on it . I wan't to put queens in my builds in both vT and vP MUs i haven't had much success thought i'm only D+/C-.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 05 2008 16:09 GMT
#268
I will be getting my computer back this Friday. Expect mass games and replays shortly!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
SWPIGWANG
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada482 Posts
November 05 2008 17:22 GMT
#269
The problem is that 18gas after 3hatch followed by zergling speed AFTER lair+den+evo upgrade means there is really no reliable way to deny scouting without massing zerglings. On the other hand, short of suicide overlords, there is no way to scout a wall in terran, as he could be 3 Rax or CC behind the wall.

There needs to be a guideline on whether to send a drone to scout, whether to suicide a ovie, and when to get zerglings against the standard scouting SCV. Since it is something that needs to be done every match, it needs to be in the BO and not adapted on the fly.

If one merely mass drones, there'd be no scouting info apart from overlord onto of a cliff near the terran base, which is good enough to see a FE when it lands/push out but nothing before that. Its possible to build order lose instantly if a push out is spotted and there are no larva for zergling and no time for sunken before the ball is on top of you.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-05 19:24:46
November 05 2008 19:24 GMT
#270
On November 06 2008 02:22 SWPIGWANG wrote:
The problem is that 18gas after 3hatch followed by zergling speed AFTER lair+den+evo upgrade means there is really no reliable way to deny scouting without massing zerglings. On the other hand, short of suicide overlords, there is no way to scout a wall in terran, as he could be 3 Rax or CC behind the wall.

There needs to be a guideline on whether to send a drone to scout, whether to suicide a ovie, and when to get zerglings against the standard scouting SCV. Since it is something that needs to be done every match, it needs to be in the BO and not adapted on the fly.

If one merely mass drones, there'd be no scouting info apart from overlord onto of a cliff near the terran base, which is good enough to see a FE when it lands/push out but nothing before that. Its possible to build order lose instantly if a push out is spotted and there are no larva for zergling and no time for sunken before the ball is on top of you.


On October 26 2008 16:20 Misrah wrote:

(NO I'm not going to explain every little *build one ling here, make sunken now*, type of BS. This BO is a work in progress and frankly anyone that is going to be able to understand this whole concept shouldn't need a whole page of rhetoric on how to handle early game zvt.)


There is your answer. Your situation applies to all zerg build orders.

Looks like you just don't understand this whole concept.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-05 19:45:26
November 05 2008 19:37 GMT
#271
On October 15 2007 23:35 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
This is a guide to how to play a macro based 3 hatch mutalisk opening vs Terran fast expanders and academy rushers during the early game. There's also a very large section about early game scouting, and how to modify your build order.

The build order part applies for maps with a -not too wide- choke point and a total of 2 gases in your main and natural together. Examples of maps where this guide applies is Longinus, Luna and Python. Examples of maps where it does not apply is Vampire (3 gases), Rush Hour (too wide choke point) and Estrella (island map).

I must stress the point that there are indeed builds meant to counter specific situations that are slightly, in some cases almost unsignificantly, better than this one. But finding out exactly how the terran is dividing his resources during late early game is one hell of a task which you probably won't succed with. And if you guess wrong, you'll fall terribly behind instead. This build is meant to give you a safe walk into the mid game and put you in a good situation no matter what he does, as long as it's some kind of fe into bionic. It gives you a good stamp off to abuse surperior midgame skills, if that's not your forte you might pick a cheesier build or experiment some with lurker openings.

Overlord Scouting

Where to send the first overlord? This depends on whether you want to find one base as fast as possible, two bases as fast as possible or if you want to reach a camp able spot overlooking his choke as fast as possible.

If I 9 overpooled on a 4 player map I'd want to find 2 bases as fast as possible. If the bases are placed like on Lost Temple or Python, then I'd send my first overlord to the second closest base, if I'm at 6 then that's the 3 base. Then I'd send my my second overlord to the closest base, if I'm at 6 then that would be the base at 9. In this way I will successfully have scouted 2 out of 3 bases with only my overlords in time for my pool to finish. This means I'm 100% sure where my opponent is and that I'm guaranteed to send my zerglings to the right position. However, on some maps, like Luna and R-Point, there are no close base and no far base, all bases are far away. This means that you need to bring a drone off and scout with it if you want to 9 pool on these maps. But it also means that these maps are worse for 9 pooling as you has to bring the drone off.

Let's take another example. I'm going to 12 hatch expand on Longinus. I spawn at the 3 position. In this case I want to send my first overlord to the far away base, at 6. More precisely the cliff overlooking the choke of the 6 base. Then you send your second overlord to the cliff overlooking the choke of the 11 base . You want to manually micro your second overlord so it at all time is seeing as much as possible of the ground path between your base and the 11 base. However, you mustn't see too much as that would mean you won't be able to reach the safety of the unreachable high ground before you die, in case a marine should come walking there. The reason you send your overlord like this is of course to see if he sends his first marine to harass you or not. When sending your overlords like this you won't need to drone scout on Longinus. The same principle is usable on Tau Cross at the 9 position, except a 8raxer will be able to kill your second ol if he's at 1. If you're at 1 you can still do it, but your second ol dies if found no matter the build, as long as it's the second ol and not the first whom is traveling the right way.

If you 9 pool or 9 overpool on a 3 player map you want to send your first overlord to the closest base, in order to as fast as possible know where to send your zerglings, and if you're lucky get to know the strength of your opponents defences.

If you 12 hatch on a asymmetrical 4 player map (like Temple (except the 6 pos) or Python) you send your first overlord the the closest base, if he's not there you move on to the far away base. Your second overlord is sent to the second closest base. If I'm at 3 on Python this means that my first overlord goes to the 12 base and then continues to the 9 base while my second overlord goes to the 6 base and stays there.

If it's a symmetrical 4 player map (like Luna) the situation gets more complex. These maps can look like anything! 2 different maps can, and are very likely to, have 2 different scouting patterns.

Lastly, remember that that not all maps have safe scouting paths nor safe camp spots overlooking the chokes. With a 9 pool (or similar) your objective is always to determinate where your opponent is with as little drone scouting as possible. If you 12 hatch your objective is to find a camp spot overlooking his choke as fast as possible. Go figure how to do on more maps.

Drone Scouting

There is not much to speak about here. There are only three questions to ask. When shall I drone scout? What shall I do once I'm inside his base? And how long shall I stay outside his base?

Generally this applies, but there might be some exceptions, like maps with HUGE distances. If you send your drone at 12 you will be able to enter one base before he gets a marine out while if you send it at 9 you will be able to enter 2 bases.

So if it's a 3 player map you 12 drone scout, or don't drone scout at all, see the Overlord Scouting part above. And it it's a 4 player map you 9 drone scout. Once you're inside his base you want to look at the number of barracks, and if he's taking the gas or not. There might also be dead give-aways, like a Command Center building or an academy going up. A gas is likely to mean an academy rush but could also mean some kind of cheese build.

Only 1 barrack but no gas means he's either fast expanding or building proxy. If he has only one 1 barrack and has taken his gas you want to sacrifice your scouting drone to find out what he's up to. A drone is faster than a marine but the marine has perfect acceleration so you want to travel in as straight paths as possible abusing your maximum speed. Going through his mineral line is another trick to use. All in all you might not be able to stay alive for a very long time but he will have to make his tech buildings quickly so you might be able to find them anyway, unless they're proxied.

On to the last question, if he's 2 raxing, or 1 raxing without gas you want to move out of his base in time to save your drone and place it in his choke so that you can see if he moves out to harass you. Stay there until he moves out or until your overlord arrives to take over the duty.

Note that if he's 8 raxing you won't be able to enter the second base with a 9 scout nor the first base with a 12 scout.

When to add Sunkens Colonies?

You want to get away with as few sunkens as possible, as late as possible, but still live. How many you need do of course depend on how large army he has, but that's something you'll have to learn your self. Generally 2-4 should be enough unless he goes 3 or 4 rax.

What's easier to tell is when you need them. The first thing you need to ask yourself is this: Is the time it takes him to walk to my base from the position where my scout is placed longer than the time it takes to build a sunken? If the answer is yes, then you only want to add sunkens when you see him move out. If the answer is no, then you want to pre-add creep colonies, but do not morph them into sunkens. Morph them into sunkens only when you see him move out.
So when to pre-add the creeps? Add the first one around 20 supply, unless he moves out before of course. But if he moves out before you should be able to fend him off even if the sunk isn't completely finished when he arrives. If he tries to run by you do of course pull off your drones.

The second one should be pre-added just before you make your spire (this means the spire will be made at 26 instead of 27) and the third one just after you make your spire. Unless you've managed to scout a fast expansion build. Then you can add the second one just after the spire is laid down, and the third once he gets medics out. If you don't know if he got medics or not then add the third slightly after the second, maybe 3-5 supply inbetween.

OMFG IT'S A SWIZZERCHEESE!

How to tell a cheeser from a player whom this build is meant to counter? Asuming our scouting drone finds nothing? An academy rusher is most likely to move out in the time frame around when your lair finishes (1 rax acarush would be faster, but also weaker), a fast expander is likely to have taken his expansion even earlier. That is what we're going to use. Instead of trying to tell if he's cheesing we're going to find out if he's not cheesing, and then assume that he's cheesing if it turns out he's not doing a non-cheese build. So if he has neither moved out nor expanded by the time your spire has started, let's say been morphing for a while. After all some people are doing slow academy rushes. Though they're not as efficient as quicker ones they do still exist, and a stupid move can turn into a genius one if we assume he will not do it. So, if he has neither moved out nor expanded by the time your spire has been morphing for some 10-20-30 seconds (pick one! I'd get get suspicious of him at 10 and convinced at 20) - he's very likely up to something sneaky. Now you have very little time to prepare for a cheese, but little is better than none at all.


Some General Advice
  • Always pre-add overlords during mid game. Having to wait for an overlord to finish is far worse than having wasted 100 minerals on an unneeded overlord.
  • Put a fourth drone on your natural's gas if it's placed to the right or below your natural hatchery. If your main gas is placed to the right or below your main hatchery, then place your third hatchery below or to the right of the gas. If that's not possible then put 4 drones on the main gas too.
  • Spread out a few zerglings across the map during the mid game so you always know where your opponent has his army.
  • Always try to flank your opponent. Flank=attack from at least two sides. The move might take some multitask to pull off but practice makes perfect.
  • Always try to delay the fight with your opponents main army. Terrans tend not to reinforce their main army once it has moved out. Use this to your advantage and reinforce your own army for as long as possible.
  • Plague owns anything that is bionic.
  • Always keep zerglings patroling the remote exps that you have not taken. The terran mustn't get another base without fighting for it.


Because SWPIGWANG seems to have trouble playing early game ZvT i guess everyone is going to need pages and pages of rhetoric on how to handle it. It seems that some people need this and are to lazy to figure it out that the same applies to this build, or simply cannot fathom doing something that we have not discussed here about the Cocaine BO.

@ SWPIGWANG please be sure to familiarize yourself with the information posted above

Also some added reading: (in case you need it)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=49286
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73314
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=49289
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=66469
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=29095
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=56512
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65980
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60228
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=58620
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=46476
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60876
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65435
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=43356#14
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61041#8


ALL WORK IS NOT MINE- it is from people far better than me and more experienced!
( like: ZerG~LegenD)

So read up!!!! (For those of you that have to)
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
November 06 2008 04:49 GMT
#272
When I do this build, I like to build my 3rd hatch at a gas expansion. I get den quite early to upgrade hydras then lair and upgrade lurkers. With the fast third gas, it's possible to go both hydras and lurkers and queens all at the same time. With my shitty low apm, I experience resource overload and need 6 hatches for mid-game just to spend my resources. Also, with my low apm, I was not able to use queens and lurkers at the same time with all the macroing involved in this strategy. Maybe someone better can make it work.
Beyond the Game
Stimpacked
Profile Joined June 2008
Philippines368 Posts
November 06 2008 05:53 GMT
#273
Assuming the T already knows this build and FE's goes pure M&M&F even with just 1-1 upgrades out of like 6 or more raxes and teching late to match-up your drone whoring and 4 hatcheries. And times his attack well when you get your third, off course hydra/ling/queen simply cant match it up even with ensnare. With even bases you have no chance at all, your third is going to be late because of massing up and he'll just ran you over like shit.
live and let live...
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-06 07:10:18
November 06 2008 07:09 GMT
#274
On November 06 2008 14:53 Stimpacked wrote:
Assuming the T already knows this build and FE's goes pure M&M&F even with just 1-1 upgrades out of like 6 or more raxes and teching late to match-up your drone whoring and 4 hatcheries. And times his attack well when you get your third, off course hydra/ling/queen simply cant match it up even with ensnare. With even bases you have no chance at all, your third is going to be late because of massing up and he'll just ran you over like shit.


Ahh getting so tired of people coming into the thread- making it their jihad to destroy the build, any way possible. Of course in these games the terran player is a brilliant psychic who understands everything, and the zerg player never scouts. Yes, yes brilliant deduction my good sir. How long did it take you to come up with this interesting rebuttal? Also if you would have taken half of the time to read the plethora of information posted in this thread the assumptions that you have created are mostly false.

Before i forget, your third base is taken by your fourth hatchery before gas. Additional hatcheries are added whenever possible. So next time you decide to waste your and to be more specific (my) time please give me something worth writing about, instead of a condensed theoretical counter puke on paper argument that you thought up two minuets ago.

Considering that you have never played this build, you seem to know every in and out.

gg good sir.
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Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 06 2008 07:23 GMT
#275
On November 06 2008 13:49 Rucky wrote:
When I do this build, I like to build my 3rd hatch at a gas expansion. I get den quite early to upgrade hydras then lair and upgrade lurkers. With the fast third gas, it's possible to go both hydras and lurkers and queens all at the same time. With my shitty low apm, I experience resource overload and need 6 hatches for mid-game just to spend my resources. Also, with my low apm, I was not able to use queens and lurkers at the same time with all the macroing involved in this strategy. Maybe someone better can make it work.



Ohh (sorry i missed this) @ rucky

You get your third hatch at an expo? How do you deal with the terran scouting you? (My computer will be back in my possession this Friday, so hopefully i can start trying every thing new lol) but until then, how did you deal with this?

Did the terran's you were playing think that something was going on? or could you proceed as normal? I'm curious to see what you have experienced with taking the 3rd expo with our 3rd hatch.

Also i was wondering, could you please provide a replay to your game? I would like to see it.

For the third gas, I had always envisioned in my build that all of your drones should be mining more minerals, for crazy amounts of hatcheries and of course hydra/ling. Gas is saved for queens, upgrades and teck only. Basically i just really want to watch your replay and see what is going on wi th your play.

If you would like to/ want to spend the time, would you mind answering a few of the above questions?
Thanks
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
Stimpacked
Profile Joined June 2008
Philippines368 Posts
November 06 2008 07:52 GMT
#276
On November 06 2008 16:09 Misrah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2008 14:53 Stimpacked wrote:
Assuming the T already knows this build and FE's goes pure M&M&F even with just 1-1 upgrades out of like 6 or more raxes and teching late to match-up your drone whoring and 4 hatcheries. And times his attack well when you get your third, off course hydra/ling/queen simply cant match it up even with ensnare. With even bases you have no chance at all, your third is going to be late because of massing up and he'll just ran you over like shit.


Ahh getting so tired of people coming into the thread- making it their jihad to destroy the build, any way possible. Of course in these games the terran player is a brilliant psychic who understands everything, and the zerg player never scouts. Yes, yes brilliant deduction my good sir. How long did it take you to come up with this interesting rebuttal? Also if you would have taken half of the time to read the plethora of information posted in this thread the assumptions that you have created are mostly false.

Before i forget, your third base is taken by your fourth hatchery before gas. Additional hatcheries are added whenever possible. So next time you decide to waste your and to be more specific (my) time please give me something worth writing about, instead of a condensed theoretical counter puke on paper argument that you thought up two minuets ago.

Considering that you have never played this build, you seem to know every in and out.

gg good sir.


My point is that you cant match T's firepower at a certain point of the game. You cant scout enough because you have no spire or very late spire so your slow overlords cant do nothing. Don't tell me your researching overlord speed when your concentrating on queens plus hydra/ling upgrades. Also the main point of your build as I've read is to macro up on 4 hatcheries outnumbering terran on midgame. How can you keep your 3rd up and running while massing like hell, you've never mentioned that you have 3 bases on the baby push T's gonna do. What if the baby push involves 2-3 groups of M&M&F first taking your 3rd base or so as called 4th hatch when you're still powering up? Your troops are going to be divided and if they successfully take your 3rd base or 4th hatch you'll be even and you can get ran over by the 6+ raxes terran has. Yes as what I've assuming T knows this build and yes they have comsats and most of the people visit TL.net. Well im just finding ways to counter your build not destroy it. So i think T's just mass it up and tech late that's pretty much easy.
live and let live...
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 06 2008 08:15 GMT
#277
I cannot believe I am going to answer this all again:

1. What point can't zerg match terran firepower? When are you going to move out? This build gets a fast hive, and because of the fast upgrades will also have fast ultra. So how long are you going to sit inside of your 2base terran and 'macro up' while allowing me to go around the map and take 5+ expos by 10min in the game. How are you going to stop me? Go test your theories out some time. Most of the people that have tried this build seem to disagree with you. If you sit inside of your base all day, I will run rampant. My economy will be insane along with my production rate. You would not be able to keep up.

Zerg economy&production (left unchecked) grows faster than any other race in the game. You intend to sit inside of your base and allow me to do just that. Sounds like a logical idea to me.

2. Scouting? are you kidding me? Queens have parasite, and are fast- with a large vision range. I can be in and around your base all of the time. (This tells me that once again, you have not read this thread before posting)

3. Macro up on 4 hatch? Really? (Once again you have no idea what your talking about- no where in my build do i state this. I will say again: Please go and read this thread before posting counter arguments)

4. For the 3base argument- yes this is mentioned, once again read this thread, I'm not going to copy and paste everything that other people and myself have already discussed and stated. Also your trying to tell me that you first 'baby push' has has 24-36 M&M ? Are you kidding me? that is mid game at BEST. That is not an early game push- that is mid game.

5. 6+ rax that terran has? When? in the early game? Once again you don't make sense. Your talking about mid game or late mid game. At which point, if you truly decide to wait that long- my production and economy will be far to much for terran to handle. Also i will be tecking to hive, and will soon be at hive play- making your plight even worse. Even if you do manage to kill an expo- im still 4 base zerg with hive teck vs your piddly two base terran. (which according to you, has decided to not teck to anything- so my hive teck will run you over)

Lets say that on the off chance, I am not nearing hive teck. Your strategy is (Sit inside 2base terran, macro up many rax- don't teck.)

So you have a plethora of M&M with no vessels. I can always just get lurkers. Once again you are counting on the fact that the zerg is a complete and utter fool- with no scouting information. So now i have my lurker army, and you with no vessle. Boo Hoo.

Once again you have not played the build (nor have you taken the time to read this thread about the build, you have not watched any replays or for that matter done any research into your argument.)

Please refrain from posting in this thread until you have done the following that i have so kindly stated in the above parenthesis.
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Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
November 06 2008 08:53 GMT
#278
So, to make it clear the 3rd hatch goes to a gas expansion ( i play on python so i put it at an empty main farthest from enemy ) and 4th hatch goes where my 3rd hatch would in my base so it'll look like a standard 3 hatch play.

With initial 6 lings, destroy first scv scout and send 1 to put at the choke of the hidden main expansion. other 5 use to stop scouting scv's and to know when terran expands or move out.

I just thought hey, if terran can't scout he'll never know. And if he scans he'll never scan there...he'll just scan your main for tech. Lastly if he does manage to scout over there, your 1 ling at choke will stop it. He will then immediate probably try to send an army out there. When you notice that 1 ling killed or got killed, you know it is the time to just mass lings and hydras from your hatches. If terran moves out you can pressure with a backstab so he won't move out or if he does, you can pressure to flank while terran is moving.

I don't think this will work for another map, but python works fine for me. And to respond to the extreme m&m max rax build, when i feel extremely threatened, i do get lurkers. i'm not retarded. With the fast gas i can get lurkers and hydra-ling.
Beyond the Game
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
November 06 2008 08:54 GMT
#279
Anymore replays guys?
(I myself am overworked and ill, nice combination :-/)

Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 06 2008 09:06 GMT
#280
On November 06 2008 17:53 Rucky wrote:
So, to make it clear the 3rd hatch goes to a gas expansion ( i play on python so i put it at an empty main farthest from enemy ) and 4th hatch goes where my 3rd hatch would in my base so it'll look like a standard 3 hatch play.

With initial 6 lings, destroy first scv scout and send 1 to put at the choke of the hidden main expansion. other 5 use to stop scouting scv's and to know when terran expands or move out.

I just thought hey, if terran can't scout he'll never know. And if he scans he'll never scan there...he'll just scan your main for tech. Lastly if he does manage to scout over there, your 1 ling at choke will stop it. He will then immediate probably try to send an army out there. When you notice that 1 ling killed or got killed, you know it is the time to just mass lings and hydras from your hatches. If terran moves out you can pressure with a backstab so he won't move out or if he does, you can pressure to flank while terran is moving.

I don't think this will work for another map, but python works fine for me. And to respond to the extreme m&m max rax build, when i feel extremely threatened, i do get lurkers. i'm not retarded. With the fast gas i can get lurkers and hydra-ling.


I'm glad to hear that getting a 3rd expo so quickly happens to be a usable idea. Thanks for writing and you time rucky.

On November 06 2008 17:54 Metaspace wrote:
Anymore replays guys?
(I myself am overworked and ill, nice combination :-/)



I'm sorry to here that you are sick get better soon (drink some tea and stay hydrated- that has always helped me lol )

As for the replays, I am getting my computer back this friday- and i plan to play straight through till sunday. I will post mass reps of all of the games. So just hold out a bit longer

However now that i think about it, I'm going to have to change my name on icup, and B.net. People might know it's me lol jk jk.
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