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On November 02 2008 02:45 Superiorwolf wrote:
I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
post a rep pls, i would love to see that
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On November 02 2008 02:45 Superiorwolf wrote:
I just played it twice at C level and it worked to some success. First time I failed because I didn't react properly to Fantasy build. Second time vs the same guy I accidentally 4 hat'd before pool because the drone went to make the pool and I was out of minerals so it just stood there -_- and he almost killed me but I managed to survive, then I killed his first push easily with mass ling and counterattacked. My hydras finally got there and I infested the first CC and then I landed it behind his crystal on Othello and made infesteds, and later when I had 4 I ran in and killed half his SCVs with them. He kept coming back with drops and killing my bases and I had no scourge/mutas to get on those cliffs and deal with it, but even thoiugh he did great damage with drops I had like 6 expansions and ran him over.
Drops really are hard to deal with, especially on Othello, but it isn't as much as a problem on Python I speculate, because their are no cliffs.
reps or it didn't happen
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I quite agree with the use of the queen. There are many uses for queens in the game that are not used often because they are expensive, but in one game a wek ago (pvz) I was doing a standard corsair rape when instead of going hydras or spore colonies, my opponent went queens and scourges, thus raping my corsairs. (Slow corsairs suck) Then I sent in my dts, which were thus detected by queens. I began to think about this strategy in general. If a queen can ensnare critical units (Scivessels) this slows the terran army as a whole and thus allows the zerg to better time a push. Queens however were most used effectively in a game I saw around a month ago within which was one of the best moves I have ever seen. The zerg player allowed the terran to go through a choke near his base but then countered with his lurkers. As the terran attempted to retreat, the zerg player brooded the rear marines and ensnared the mass, slowing and walling the group. Chaos ensumed. The queens then preceded to aid in a lurker drop. (I was estatic) The zerg player dropped 2 lurkers after brooding a tank and then ensnared the workers to allow lurkers burrow time. Pwnage ensued. Sorry that I cant provide replays as Ive been cleaning them out recently due to file space. (Having played for 9 years means I have to many replays)
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Ok people, i have some good news 
My computer will be coming back into my possession either by this Friday, or at latest this Sunday.
I plan to mass rep and game this build.
So woohoo?
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I'll be waiting for the replays!
Looking forward to the results.
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here's a replay from me
http://rapidshare.com/files/160572315/0245_allan77T_GeorionterZ.rep.html
Warning, very low level play, i did not use the BO properly, my Den was way too late, and i got ultra den befor defilers, cuz i felt uncomfrtable with the hydraling+swarm, cuz it may turn out to nullify your hydras.
The difficulties i expereinced: the vulnariblity of the expoes, because he knew i had no spire he was confident on running out with dual Dropships, i cannot afford to make defences great enough to take down a group of 16 mnm. I could protect my main with a few stratigicly placed hydras, and some troops rallied at my nat, ready to rush back to main and defend. I tried to intercept his DSs i made a semi-ring around his base but he did not run in it.
I had plenty of gas, but i really was low on minerals, i wasnt producing enough drones maybe, but idk, i felt i have many...
The other great problem was, when my hive tech kicked in he gathered a huge number of vessels, and i was low on hydras cuz i wasnt reproducing them, keeping money for the ultras. I coudnt mass confortably ultras, cuz they were vulnarable to irradiate, so i had to make some more hydras, and still did not seal this problem. Luckily he couldnt hold my 10+ ultras massling under darkswarm so i broke in and win.
Once again, this is very low level play, i wasn't microing as well as i could, not talking about other mistakes, and my opponent was bad too.
As is said, it's a low-level play so don't make fun of it. If you're much better than me and can't tolerate noobs, dont watch it.
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What's with people not building a spire when using this build?
You need to keep the vessel count low for your ultras and to intercept dropships.
Also... I hope I'm mistaken, but..
Geo.Rion, do you use hotkeys?
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This build isn't really any one predefined build order. It's more of a new way to play ZvT. Instead of a lurker ling midgame, you play a mass hydra ling midgame, but you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing. Like if he's relying heavily on drops. I'd probably get a spire no matter what after my first queens are out, since that's probably about when dropships/vessels will make an appearance. I would imagine, since you aren't getting lurkers, that after you get all your needed tech (hydra upgrades, melee/carapace, queen's nest + ensnare + queens) that you would start having a glut of gas anyway.
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Thank God- at least someone understands this build idea gogo conquest101
Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
About the spire, no i don't place one in my build order- but that doesn't mean that you can't get one. I just leave it out because not getting the spire can streamline your economy for mass drone and hatchery production.
@ Conquest101 and Geo.Rion
You shouldn't have an excess of gas at any point in this build order. I have stated before and i will again- This build is very expansive and mineral intensive. Your going to need more minerals to facilitate your mass. Don't forget this, and the gas excess shouldn't be a problem.
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On November 05 2008 01:20 Conquest101 wrote:
This build isn't really any one predefined build order. It's more of a new way to play ZvT. Instead of a lurker ling midgame, you play a mass hydra ling midgame, but you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing. Like if he's relying heavily on drops. I'd probably get a spire no matter what after my first queens are out, since that's probably about when dropships/vessels will make an appearance. I would imagine, since you aren't getting lurkers, that after you get all your needed tech (hydra upgrades, melee/carapace, queen's nest + ensnare + queens) that you would start having a glut of gas anyway.
Sort of true, but in all the replays I've seen this way of playing relies heavily on strong economy which requires a weak early game. You have to mass drones and make a lot of hatcheries. The zerg is very weak in the beginning and no doubt Terran players can see plenty of timing windows when Z is using this unperfected BO.
I just wonder if you could transition into this way of playing using 3hatch muta. Doing some muta harassment while doing the upgrades you need for the hydraling+queen army.
On November 05 2008 02:17 Misrah wrote:
Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
I think you're seriously overestimating the power of your hydra against drops. The best way to get rid of drops is to detect them and scourge them. You need a large amount of hydras to kill 2 dropships of marimedi and you can't have that kind of force at every expansion, while simultaneously containing terran.
And I can't believe you're suggesting killing vessels with hydra. You have to keep the vessel count low for the ultras that are about to come. At the very least you have to have a spire up when you transition to ultras or they will all get irradiated.
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On November 05 2008 00:16 village_idiot wrote:
What's with people not building a spire when using this build?
You need to keep the vessel count low for your ultras and to intercept dropships.
Also... I hope I'm mistaken, but..
Geo.Rion, do you use hotkeys?
As is said, it's a low-level play so don't make fun of it. If you're much better than me and can't tolerate noobs, dont watch it. I will add this to my post too, i tought it's obvious.
Idk why do you try to seem cool by asking "do you use hotkeys", everybody uses, even 40 APM players who don't know any bo or tactic. A lot of people spam and if you see their apm distribution it's 40-50% hotkey. I use hotkeys as much as my level of play requires. I hope you're happy.
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Hmm, I'm mainly a toss player but IMO {{enter Q word here}} would probably work better vs Protoss... 1 good ensnare on a group of Zeals would cause some havoc...
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On November 05 2008 02:19 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2008 01:20 Conquest101 wrote:
This build isn't really any one predefined build order. It's more of a new way to play ZvT. Instead of a lurker ling midgame, you play a mass hydra ling midgame, but you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing. Like if he's relying heavily on drops. I'd probably get a spire no matter what after my first queens are out, since that's probably about when dropships/vessels will make an appearance. I would imagine, since you aren't getting lurkers, that after you get all your needed tech (hydra upgrades, melee/carapace, queen's nest + ensnare + queens) that you would start having a glut of gas anyway. Sort of true, but in all the replays I've seen this way of playing relies heavily on strong economy which requires a weak early game. You have to mass drones and make a lot of hatcheries. The zerg is very weak in the beginning and no doubt Terran players can see plenty of timing windows when Z is using this unperfected BO. I just wonder if you could transition into this way of playing using 3hatch muta. Doing some muta harassment while doing the upgrades you need for the hydraling+queen army. Show nested quote +On November 05 2008 02:17 Misrah wrote:
Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops.
I think you're seriously overestimating the power of your hydra against drops. The best way to get rid of drops is to detect them and scourge them. You need a large amount of hydras to kill 2 dropships of marimedi and you can't have that kind of force at every expansion, while simultaneously containing terran. And I can't believe you're suggesting killing vessels with hydra. You have to keep the vessel count low for the ultras that are about to come. At the very least you have to have a spire up when you transition to ultras or they will all get irradiated.
We have had this discussion about this exact "problem" before on this forum- at the moment i am constrained for time, so i cannot pull the exact discussion. However it has been said by people that have played this build, that drops were no problem, and just having a group of ling/hydra at their main was more than enough to deal with drops. The people that have played this build did not find drops to be a huge problem. Drop ships hold- 6marines and 2medics. Wimpy, a small group of ling and hydra can take it down. Also you can ensnare/parasite the drop ships to make them even easier to kill. If you would take the time to read some of my and others posts, i don't think that the drop ship argument is really as potent as you think. As far as detecting the drop ships- Overlords, and lings in key routs are all your going to need. You have a fast moving hydra/ling army, you can get anywhere you need to be before the drop is going to do any significant damage. And if you get more lucky, you can ensnare and then chase down the drop ships.
Science Vessels- Once again you have a concern that hydra cannot kill vessels? Don't forget that you will have many many queens out by the time terran is producing vessels. Hydra rape vessels. Coupled that with the fact that the vessels will be ensnared- the vessel count should never become dangerous.
Also transitioning to hydra ultra is also a fine idea, i have said before that you are going to need to keep producing hydra all the way into the late game and beyond- to deal with vessel numbers.
Also you comment about using muta to keep that terran off balance- with macro whoring. Think about it- that is what is being done right now. Zerg is using the mutalisks to give the appearance that they control the map. When in actuality it's all smoke and mirrors. Muta cannot fight M&M head on- they get raped. Your just not going to have the economy, and spending all of that extra money on the muta, i just don't see it working. Normally when your playing 3hatch muta- you use that bit of time to get lurkers out, so you can effectively fight the terran push. Basically, muta just are not going to buy you the time.
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On November 05 2008 02:17 Misrah wrote:Thank God- at least someone understands this build idea gogo conquest101 Once again for the spire, you don't need it. You have queens and a plethora of hydra out- so drop ship play should really not be an issue. You can parasite or ensnare the drop ships. Not to mention that because you have so a numerically large army- it isn't going to be a big deal to place a few zerglings in some key areas to watch for drops. About the spire, no i don't place one in my build order- but that doesn't mean that you can't get one. I just leave it out because not getting the spire can streamline your economy for mass drone and hatchery production. @ Conquest101 and Geo.Rion You shouldn't have an excess of gas at any point in this build order. I have stated before and i will again- This build is very expansive and mineral intensive. Your going to need more minerals to facilitate your mass. Don't forget this, and the gas excess shouldn't be a problem.
I understand the idea, but pulling it off perfectly is difficult. As has been mentioned many times before, you require a large number (almost excessive) number of drones off 2 (later 3) bases in order to facilitate a proper hydra/ling pump AND get all upgrades + queens. The 1 time I tried this build (turned out to be a crappy game as I was way better than my opponent), I DID have a glut of gas. Why? Because I couldn't pump enough drones in the early-mid game. I basically played as if I were facing a better opponent and tried to have enough units at proper times to repel a competent terran attack. IE, first M&M group with 2 medics, first "ball" with vessel, etc. This made it difficult to get the needed drone saturation. I dunno, maybe my BO needs work. I may have gotten my 2nd gas too early as well.
Some refinements may be in order, to try to save larvae/resources. Some things to consider:
Would getting 1 (or more?) sunkens at any point actually be a good idea? 1 sunken makes a HUGE difference when facing that first mm group for example. You could build that one sunken and get more drones instead of lings. You also don't necessarily need to flank that first group either as it's small army vs small army.
Delaying hydra range? Not sure what I'm thinking here exactly. The idea being that you NEED speed but don't necessarily need range until you need to attack. So range after queen's nest, or maybe even after ensnare. You get faster queens/ensnare, they finish at the same time, you delay/dodge major engagement until both are ready. Dangerous though.
Also, at what time does that first MM group move out? On 1 base and after FE. It's important to know, because if you do, you can use that to tinker with your early game. Basically test out just how many drones you can whore before you absolutely HAVE to pump units. Adjust build for more drones. Also if you can get away with 3 hatch before pool, I would imagine that would make a huge difference. I don't play T really so T_T.
I will test more after work today.
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Crap, was meant to be an edit. I'm an idiot. Read on.
Also, I do believe a spire is necessary. Hydraling is mobile sure, but it's NOT any faster than lurkerling is normally. I don't believe that leaving a group of hydraling in each main is a good answer either. You can't really rely on being able to snipe the dropship with hydras. Scourge are just infinitely better at that. Also, you can't realistically snipe vessels DURING the engagement with MM/the ball so you will be suffering irradiates/d-matrix which is bad. The whole ensnared vessel thing only comes into play after the battle, and only if you win. That's why I think scourge at that point is much better. You can flank and surround, you don't need to micro lurkers etc, so it's easier to clone in a bunch of scourge and rape vessels as you engage.
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@ conquest101
About the build, i am not able to give you a specific writeup because right now i am looking/writing these response in between my classes. But i would like to try to once again address some of your concerns.
I have stated before that this build does play on a risky scale. If you look back farther into this thread and read some of my/ other peoples criticisms and thoughts on this build- i would believe that you would be able to find enough evidence to place some of your misgivings at ease. Getting more drones isn't a problem, because you are going to have 4 hatch before gas, and many many more on the way. I specify that any time you can save for 300min and get a hatchery you should do so. Also placing your 4th hatchery at a 3rd expo (preferably min only) would help to dramatically increase your mining efficiency. Not to mention the fact that because you are producing so many hatcheries you should ALWAYS have an expo going up somewhere on the map. Drone whoring with this build is faster than your standard 3 hatch simply because i have more hatcheries with which to produce more drones.
About sunkens- the reason why sunkens are not a good idea with this build is because you don't want to get contained in any of your bases. Getting contained defeats the purpose of this build entirely. So try and save the money and drone and instead get a zergling or hydra.
About your comments on the sci vessels: your giving the terran to much credit. This build moves quite rapidly into late game play, and considering the fact that you have so many hydra roaming about, the vessels simply are not an issue. Same goes for the drop ship play. Hydra/ling is so much faster than lurk ling speed wise, they are not even comparable.
I would suggest that you go and test this build out. Mass game, play many opponents and really try and see if your theory's are correct. From what i have read/seen from others and my self- some of your arguments are just not as valid as you may believe.
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I'm not sure how this build gets around the fact that Lurkers > Marines. I think the only victories garnered with this build will simply be from the Zerg player simply outclassing an inferior Terran player. I would love to see a Zerg only go hydras and ling against me. As long as the upgrades stay close, you're not building anything that counters Marines until Hive tech. So that means...
I can just focus on macro until I am ready to kill you. (I don't have to worry about lurkers sneaking up and killing an idle group of marines, or a lurkling all-in. I don't have to worry about muta harrass or fast guardian tech.) In other words, you just can't threaten the Terran base or army without a lot of work. So, essentially you're giving up the mechanics advantage to the Terran.
I would be willing to test this out with anyone. I am a very average Terran player.
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The idea of this build is this:
Lurker > Marines, but with good terran players, lurkers do virtually no damage.
Hydra-ling < Marine and Medics, but with UPGRADES and HIGH production it is more likely that Hydra-ling = Marine Medics.
The point is to have a huge economic lead while trading off your army with their army.
If it is successful, zerg can rebuild army faster than terran can.
What I have been reading is people who follows this build dead on without changing up when the terran changes. Also, people seem to think that hydras are being overestimated against drops and sci vessels. What i think is that people are underestimating the queen. If you're going to upgrade the queen, you're not just going to build one! Queens are fast! I like to use them to scout terran's base and given that they won't build turrets because there are no mutas or lurkers, you can know exactly when terran builds a sci vessel. Here you have to change it up and put down a spire. For better players, I think it was possible to do without a spire, since yes hydras can't be everywhere and it would be stupid to put them at every base. But with queens, you can use them as spotters and ensare/parasite dropships or vessels. If you know where they are headed, you can intercept with hydras. If you ensnare them and slow them down, you can run hydras in to snipe.
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.
For me:
I usually get a 3rd base with my 3rd or 4th hatch before gas like the Misrah said.
I try to build a versatile army quickly (get speed for lings) and run around both 3rd base and nat and try to attack when terran is moving.
With 3 bases, minerals flows in fast.
Personal Experiences:
1)Terran only irradiate hydras which is funny to laugh at when they only cost 75/25. you don't have anything expensive for them to irradiate.
2)When attacking terran's natural, with hydras you can actually snipe the ledge seige tanks when they fire at you. With a lurker ling army, blocked ramp and ledge seige tanks will kill your attack. This is mid-game before swarms.
3)Right after i trade armies successfully, I just mass units from 5-6 hatches and a-move ftw. If they lose their army they lose the game, because they can't produce as fast.
4)Aggravate before battle. I use hydra range and speed to attack m&m then run away repeatedly before a battle so that medics would use up a lot of their energy. Hopefully all...
5)Battling. From having my army wiped out so many times, i learned that you should attack with hydras first. (i send lings in they all die and hydras don't have enough dmg to kill m&m while they're being healed) Hydras tank, Lings kill! Terran can micro and change targets to lings, but they'll lose time since their units move slower with ensnare.
I just want to say this build is not perfect and will not work every game versus every build. Since the converse of what i said is also true. If zerg can't successfully trade armies and their army keeps getting bigger, zerg has a high chance of losing, unless zerg gets to hive tech.
Most problems with this build is defending the early push from terran when zerg is drone whoring. Even with Misrah saying to not build sunkens, IF you're going to LOSE then POP those sunkens UP. if you get the sunkens right before they attack your natural, and assuming you've been drone whoring before getting those sunkens, your economic advantage is already secured! Let's say terran has the biggest possible early push like 1 base multirax. If you can defend with 4+ sunkens and mass lings from your hatch, then you won the game. Think if you're at an advantage to begin with, if you survive you win. (unless they're just wayyyyy better than you)
I'll end this on a negative note that this build totally fails if you are contained.....................SAD
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Isn't this the zerg version of 3 Nexus before gate.... *cue spirit toss*
Would someone try the 4hatch mass drone into muta-ling/lurk-ling/ling-all-in? I suspect in absence of early pressure in the form of marine+scv rush, it might work better than 3hat muta anyways.
I strongly suspect it is the econ that is floating this build alive. An extra expo early on is HUGE and I'm not so sure about the hydra-ling combo that has gotten pwned big time in history.
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On November 05 2008 12:43 Rucky wrote:
The idea of this build is this:
Lurker > Marines, but with good terran players, lurkers do virtually no damage.
Hydra-ling < Marine and Medics, but with UPGRADES and HIGH production it is more likely that Hydra-ling = Marine Medics.
The point is to have a huge economic lead while trading off your army with their army.
If it is successful, zerg can rebuild army faster than terran can.
What I have been reading is people who follows this build dead on without changing up when the terran changes. Also, people seem to think that hydras are being overestimated against drops and sci vessels. What i think is that people are underestimating the queen. If you're going to upgrade the queen, you're not just going to build one! Queens are fast! I like to use them to scout terran's base and given that they won't build turrets because there are no mutas or lurkers, you can know exactly when terran builds a sci vessel. Here you have to change it up and put down a spire. For better players, I think it was possible to do without a spire, since yes hydras can't be everywhere and it would be stupid to put them at every base. But with queens, you can use them as spotters and ensare/parasite dropships or vessels. If you know where they are headed, you can intercept with hydras. If you ensnare them and slow them down, you can run hydras in to snipe.
If terran just focuses on macro...then hey, zerg focus on macro mass expo. See who wins in the end.
For me:
I usually get a 3rd base with my 3rd or 4th hatch before gas like the Misrah said.
I try to build a versatile army quickly (get speed for lings) and run around both 3rd base and nat and try to attack when terran is moving.
With 3 bases, minerals flows in fast.
Personal Experiences:
1)Terran only irradiate hydras which is funny to laugh at when they only cost 75/25. you don't have anything expensive for them to irradiate.
2)When attacking terran's natural, with hydras you can actually snipe the ledge seige tanks when they fire at you. With a lurker ling army, blocked ramp and ledge seige tanks will kill your attack. This is mid-game before swarms.
3)Right after i trade armies successfully, I just mass units from 5-6 hatches and a-move ftw. If they lose their army they lose the game, because they can't produce as fast.
4)Aggravate before battle. I use hydra range and speed to attack m&m then run away repeatedly before a battle so that medics would use up a lot of their energy. Hopefully all...
5)Battling. From having my army wiped out so many times, i learned that you should attack with hydras first. (i send lings in they all die and hydras don't have enough dmg to kill m&m while they're being healed) Hydras tank, Lings kill! Terran can micro and change targets to lings, but they'll lose time since their units move slower with ensnare.
I just want to say this build is not perfect and will not work every game versus every build. Since the converse of what i said is also true. If zerg can't successfully trade armies and their army keeps getting bigger, zerg has a high chance of losing, unless zerg gets to hive tech.
Most problems with this build is defending the early push from terran when zerg is drone whoring. Even with Misrah saying to not build sunkens, IF you're going to LOSE then POP those sunkens UP. if you get the sunkens right before they attack your natural, and assuming you've been drone whoring before getting those sunkens, your economic advantage is already secured! Let's say terran has the biggest possible early push like 1 base multirax. If you can defend with 4+ sunkens and mass lings from your hatch, then you won the game. Think if you're at an advantage to begin with, if you survive you win. (unless they're just wayyyyy better than you)
I'll end this on a negative note that this build totally fails if you are contained.....................SAD
You're giving up pressure on Terran which allows him to macro as you are trying to do. So, you're both high on productions and Terrans always get upgrades. Both equal. I guess I don't see how adequate Terran macro loses to this build.
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EPT
