Placing the 4th hatch in the sim city (when playing some sort of 4 hatch tech) is more "turtling" then going 4 hatches on 4 bases. If u encounter a +1 speedzeal with no sim city, u need more sunk(s) + blocking lings than if u went for a sim city hatch. Therefore its "easier" to play aggressive with 4 hatch on 4 bases because your defensive abilities are not that good.
So u think he wouldnt been able to a move 14 or more +1 speedzeals against a hand full of hydra/ling and unborrowed lurker but expect him to scout everything with his corsair? His 2nd gateway was correctly timed. "he didnt have 14 or more +1 zeals" u might say now. And thats exactly why he got contained. Because of his build he wasnt able to get a faster 2nd gateway. He played a +1 speedzeal out of 1 gate and at the same time went fast archives for fast ht with storm. With that sort of crossover build, its extremly hard to "prevent" a lurker contain, because u more or less selfown yourself. If he went for a cors into 3 gate +1 speedzeal, he could have had 10 +1 zeals (i guess) at the zerg natural the moment his zeal speed finished. Dont tell me zerg would have been able to defend that with 1 sunken. If zerg would have gone for 4th hatch at 4th base he would have even needed more sunk/lings to defend. Yes when he attacks the lurker are already morphing, but u still need something to buy time or else he kills too much/ runby. For now i have only talked about "how to prevent a contain" or how to be in a good position even when it occurs. In order to defeat a 3 hatch lurker or "rarely" a 4 hatch lurker contain (his build was more of a cross where he had more gas than 4 hatch tech, but timing of a 4 hatch tech), u "just" have to macro on 2 bases and get ranged goons with obs. Sounds simple but thats exactly it, the problem of such contain is not the lurkers, its your own macro itself. Zerg will only have max 4 hatches (at the time of contain) while u are (if u go zeal heavy) already have a good amount of zeals and u are near 4 gates yourself, mostly adding another 2 for 6 gates or even more (while getting obs). If u start attacking with 2 or even 3 obs, he will have an extremly hard time defending the contain and u should be able to move out at that time (hard to snipe 2-3 obs with scourge unless they fly in first..) If he goes directly for lurker to contain u, the contain is never supposed to be game ending, only to delay your army from going out until zerg has hive and +1 or maybe +2 bases (depends on map and your actual build). He had no way to delay your gates which is why u are supposed to break it pretty soon. if he went for 4 hatch mass hydras, where u might delay your gates for cannons, and he then goes for lurker, then its a different scenario (he doesnt have that much eco and its more of a "all in contain", if u manage to move out, u pretty much won). hacklebeast already mentioned the ways to defeat a contain with "non-zeal heavy" builds, so yeah u have many ways of engaging that contain. My advise would be that u dont try to change your build too much, but rather try to find solutions within the build u already know and are familiar with.
Conclusion: in my opinion 2 things which lost you the game. 1) Your build is not good... 2) your emotions (bad macro is included in number 1) (btw i hardly play lurker contains with more than 2-3 lurker so some protoss timings might be slightly off)
On March 21 2012 19:24 Bakuryu wrote: Placing the 4th hatch in the sim city (when playing some sort of 4 hatch tech) is more "turtling" then going 4 hatches on 4 bases. If u encounter a +1 speedzeal with no sim city, u need more sunk(s) + blocking lings than if u went for a sim city hatch. Therefore its "easier" to play aggressive with 4 hatch on 4 bases because your defensive abilities are not that good.
So u think he wouldnt been able to a move 14 or more +1 speedzeals against a hand full of hydra/ling and unborrowed lurker but expect him to scout everything with his corsair? His 2nd gateway was correctly timed. "he didnt have 14 or more +1 zeals" u might say now. And thats exactly why he got contained. Because of his build he wasnt able to get a faster 2nd gateway. He played a +1 speedzeal out of 1 gate and at the same time went fast archives for fast ht with storm. With that sort of crossover build, its extremly hard to "prevent" a lurker contain, because u more or less selfown yourself. If he went for a cors into 3 gate +1 speedzeal, he could have had 10 +1 zeals (i guess) at the zerg natural the moment his zeal speed finished. Dont tell me zerg would have been able to defend that with 1 sunken. If zerg would have gone for 4th hatch at 4th base he would have even needed more sunk/lings to defend. Yes when he attacks the lurker are already morphing, but u still need something to buy time or else he kills too much/ runby. For now i have only talked about "how to prevent a contain" or how to be in a good position even when it occurs. In order to defeat a 3 hatch lurker or "rarely" a 4 hatch lurker contain (his build was more of a cross where he had more gas than 4 hatch tech, but timing of a 4 hatch tech), u "just" have to macro on 2 bases and get ranged goons with obs. Sounds simple but thats exactly it, the problem of such contain is not the lurkers, its your own macro itself. Zerg will only have max 4 hatches (at the time of contain) while u are (if u go zeal heavy) already have a good amount of zeals and u are near 4 gates yourself, mostly adding another 2 for 6 gates or even more (while getting obs). If u start attacking with 2 or even 3 obs, he will have an extremly hard time defending the contain and u should be able to move out at that time (hard to snipe 2-3 obs with scourge unless they fly in first..) If he goes directly for lurker to contain u, the contain is never supposed to be game ending, only to delay your army from going out until zerg has hive and +1 or maybe +2 bases (depends on map and your actual build). He had no way to delay your gates which is why u are supposed to break it pretty soon. if he went for 4 hatch mass hydras, where u might delay your gates for cannons, and he then goes for lurker, then its a different scenario (he doesnt have that much eco and its more of a "all in contain", if u manage to move out, u pretty much won). hacklebeast already mentioned the ways to defeat a contain with "non-zeal heavy" builds, so yeah u have many ways of engaging that contain. My advise would be that u dont try to change your build too much, but rather try to find solutions within the build u already know and are familiar with.
Conclusion: in my opinion 2 things which lost you the game. 1) Your build is not good... 2) your emotions (bad macro is included in number 1) (btw i hardly play lurker contains with more than 2-3 lurker so some protoss timings might be slightly off)
The thing is there are no set build orders in PvZ, I try to follow the liquipedia guide, but if I follow it to the letter i just find myself floating 2k mins with zero gates and slow tech. I have a hard time in PvZ because I'm lacking in the basics Edit: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=50783 here is why PvZ is the bane of my existence. How the fuck am i suppose to play against this? It;s so so good damn aggravating that it brings me to tears. I have no idea how top play against a pussy like this, please help.
-you could've put your first gate before the cannon since you scouted 12hat, not too big of a deal but lets you tech a little faster -you build all of your tech next to his extractor so he knew exactly what you're doing -you know he has a really late lair coupled with a really bad simcity, which you could've punished by going speedzeals, but instead you go dts. that's okay, but you should've taken your 3rd much earlier with the map control granted by dts and scouted out the map -you need obs way faster after you scout lurkers, he didn't really punish you for it but it's really important -you see him turtling hard, and you break his nat. you should've won right here but you didn't keep macro up so you couldn't finish off everything -you waste forever trying to kill his corner base instead of using ur army to finish off his main/nat and put some pressure on his other bases -you float like a million minerals/gas at this point because you're trying to break his corner base instead of doing something useful like teching or securing expansions -reavers would've helped a lot at this point to break his bases and defend your own. your arbs 've worked but you lose your 4th/5th before you can really use them
if you ever get that far ahead the easiest way to win is to just build like a million reavers and escort them across the map with your army, just watch out for drops
you need to keep your macro/tech up and relax ingame man
You're going to need to know a bit more than just doing Overpool for ZvP. There's a lot of builds you can do after opening Overpool so maybe you could watch some replays of pros/semi-pros and choose something you like.
Couldn't think of anywhere else to ask this so - can anyone remember the title/locate the video posted on TL a few months back of iconic BW moments, it had the rolling blackout, boxer V iloveoov tears et al. Want to show a friend it but I can't for the life of me locate it :/
As I go through the 1a2a3a replay pack, I've noticed something. He seems to avoid the FS natural thirds like the plague. Is that third really that difficult to hold as Zerg (at least at a high level), or is there some other reason he tends to go for the main and natural of another base rather than ever taking the natural third?
On March 26 2012 23:46 Kibibit wrote: As I go through the 1a2a3a replay pack, I've noticed something. He seems to avoid the FS natural thirds like the plague. Is that third really that difficult to hold as Zerg (at least at a high level), or is there some other reason he tends to go for the main and natural of another base rather than ever taking the natural third?
Zerg players opt for other natural expansion location, because once natural is secured, you can get main for free. Also, most of the zerg strategy is based on securing natural and later main to get 4 gas economy. Once zerg gets to hive tech with 4 gas, then the protoss army becomes inefficient and most likely results a win for zerg. Another reason why natural third is not good is that it is difficult for zerg to secure another expansion after third. It is because by then, protoss has enough units and tech to deny any expansion attempts.
Nowadays, people take third to go some kind of hydra bust. It is easier to defend third in FS and zergs use that benefit to make more units mid game to either finish the game by busting toss' nat or at least contain toss and get more expansion to capitalize the advantage.
Could you recommend as terran favoured as possible map with the following specs: 4 player Open 128x128 or less Easily wallable main vs zealots, lings if possible but not a must Safe 2nd expo with gas so that a 1rax fe can be easily utilised Broken apart middle with plenty of chokes so that ground armies are difficult to maneuver Harassable cliffs for siege tanks
Thanks, I looked into them, but neither looks any easier then e.g. Acro (easy 2nd), and Acro looks better then God's Garden to me. I'm looking for something like Acro but with a messy middle and harassable cliffs.
If I am playing a TvP in a map with a small distance rush like TheHunters 11 and 12 position What is the best build the terran can use to defend agains a 2gates attack
Any build where you are not intending on expanding early. Eg FD, Siege Expand, 2 Fact will all work. The key is having a choke you can block, and then modifying your build to get that second depot up earlier if need be, choke block > 2 gate.
EPT
