EPTthat way by the time hive is completed your 3rd gas hasnt been running for too long, but enough to fund the next level of tech
2 gas should be enough to produce adequate lurker defenses till hive is done
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 71
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8912 Posts
that way by the time hive is completed your 3rd gas hasnt been running for too long, but enough to fund the next level of tech 2 gas should be enough to produce adequate lurker defenses till hive is done | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On March 18 2012 17:09 Golgotha wrote: thanks jmave. so if this is my BO, when do I get the 3rd gas? 3 Hatch Muta After 9 Muta pop, I get Den, Evo and send drone to take 3rd expansion somewhere far away. I get ground armor and lurker tech asap. Add more hydra for lurker and lings to fight the bio. Do I get my 3rd gas straight after my 3rd expansion hatchery pops? and right as I take the gas, do I get queen nest? Not quite sure when to take the 3rd gas and if I should be getting my queen straight away as the extractor is evolving, or sometime later. Thanks! edit: the more i think about it I have been getting that 3rd but never getting queen nest along with it. I seem to use it for lurkers or something stupid. you should get the gas just as the expo finishes. i am not sure what pro-games to reference to but sometimes they saturate the gas geyser with 3 guys without any drones on minerals at all. actually in relation to muta builds, there is a very big distinction and dependency on either 12 gas or 15 gas. a 12 gas is 3 drones short but 30 seconds faster mutalisks, which you can capitalize on the lack of turrets and potentially lower down marine count significantly or reduce scv count. now the bigger hidden difference is that 15 gas will allow you to take a third gas before the spire is complete. even though you have slower timing for your mutalisks, it is in almost complete sync with your mutalisks being ready, and with the least amount of probability that he will attempt to move out. if you want to get hive right after the mutas, be sure that you need to have very strong map presence and he has to feel that threat. so with that aside, the normal thing is to get the hydras and some lunkers but not too many. around 2 at the third base ramp and about 5 or so at your natural. your nest should go up when you upgrade lunker tech and the remaining gas will be on lunkers. i think some good examples will be to watch some of Calm's ZvT games where he basically perfects the rush to fast hive to deflect the mid game push with excellent defiler control. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On March 18 2012 17:09 Golgotha wrote: thanks jmave. so if this is my BO, when do I get the 3rd gas? 3 Hatch Muta After 9 Muta pop, I get Den, Evo and send drone to take 3rd expansion somewhere far away. I get ground armor and lurker tech asap. Add more hydra for lurker and lings to fight the bio. Do I get my 3rd gas straight after my 3rd expansion hatchery pops? and right as I take the gas, do I get queen nest? Not quite sure when to take the 3rd gas and if I should be getting my queen straight away as the extractor is evolving, or sometime later. Thanks! edit: the more i think about it I have been getting that 3rd but never getting queen nest along with it. I seem to use it for lurkers or something stupid. The build I have in mind might be a bit outdated but you want your queen's nest right as you take your third gas..obviously if your third gas dies and you're teching to hive you're going to be in a bit of a gas vacuum, which is why you want to lock down the third ASAP. Best way of doing so is two lurkers on the ramp (assuming there is one). One of the reasons players tend towards swarm first is that it makes that ramp pretty much unbreakable unless the vessel count is high. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:59 Bakuryu wrote: if u want to defend a 9 min push or a 9.40 min push with defilers, then i would advise u to get queens nest directly after lurker aspect/+1 cara when u go 3 hatch muta, and u get 3rd gas asap. my queens nest is never connected to my 3rd gas. thank you :3 can you stream Zerg on TL? we need more Zs streaming | ||
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RaiD.RaynoR
United States294 Posts
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Puyi
United States175 Posts
the gol number depends on how many marines are still alive but is usually 0-2 vult number depends on how late the push is. 5-10 | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
On March 20 2012 02:41 RaiD.RaynoR wrote: when does the terran 2 base death push occur while I'm toss? this question is too broad. A better question would be "if I am going x build order, and I opened this way and my opponent opened this way, at what times am I vulnerable to a push?" | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
Would you guys mind analysing my PvZ, I have serious issues woth PvZ at my level and it aggravates me so much, I'm not going to go rage or rant in this comment but just know that lurkers and PvZ are the bane of existence. Any advice about building timing would be very helpful | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
First problem was that he went 3 hatch before pool, and you scouted him last. Nothing you could do, but it gives him an early advantage. Don't go for the +1 timing attack after seeing that your opponent was on 3 base with no spire and 2 evos (scouted with corsair). At that point you point you should be highly suspicious of an early attack and play defensively. You were floating about 1.2K when your corsair saw the attack coming. That should have been used on gateways (or a second forge for fast armor), but given the position you were in, you had enough time to throw down 3-4 cannons. The game wasn't over when you quit, even without the 3-4 cannons. His build was designed to get a contain and there was little you could do about it, but his army didn't have enough zerglings/hydralisks to take out cannons with the zealots you had guarding them. You would have been able to hide behind the wall and get enough storms to break it, or go for drops, or whatever your preference is. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
z went for "some sort of 4 hatch lurker", he teched earlier, but because of taking gas too late to ensure a fast 3 hatch teching, he managed to jam in a 4th hatch. Because of his early double upgrades, his lurker tech got delayed, so they were "more or less"at the timing of the 4 hatch lurker. the 4 hatch lurker build is not designed to get a contain. because "normally" u get lurker out just in time to defend a +1 speedzeal (without corsair) and then u cant move out with your lurker because he still got his 10 or so zeals running around the map and is free to "block" your lurker/ runby in your main. the same applies to cors into +1 speedzeal, it just depends on the exact build p uses. u cant really contain a cors/dt player unless u build enough hydras/spore to defend both bases and your contain or else he has dt running around on the map (but making those hydras hurts z eco). cors/rvr is theoretically the best way to play vs 4 hatch lurker, but u can use any build that works and u are most comfortable with. the build that is "designed" to get a contain is the 3 hatch lurker build, because even vs +1 speedzeal your lurker are out fast enough to set up a contain at his base. (still a problem with freely running around zeals, but not that big because of earlier tech/more lurker.) u cant "not go for +1 speedzeal" after scouting him with corsair because u already choose to do it before that. And going +1 speedzeal after corsair is not bad. YES the floating 1,2k was bad, and also that the game was not over. but i guess u were already raging so hard on that damn lurker that u didnt even wanted to bother fighting them ^^ anyway, the biggest problem is that u have no build. Aside from the fact that your core was about 20 seconds to late, u played a cors into archives build for fast ht with storm, with zeal speed, a not correctly timed +1 attack and massing zeals. so u crossed an "aggressive build" with an "defensive build" resulting in weakening your own aggression. u normally get a 2nd gate while u make the templar archives when u go cors into archives (afaik... not 100% sure now), but because of all the other stuff u did, u were stuck on 1 gate forever. When u finally managed to add on gates (because of your build), u started making overmins. And because of all that, (and not actively trying to block lurker with zeals / or try to counter his bases) u got contained pretty easily. Because im not a p player, i cant give u any build, sry  Based on your probe scout and cors scout, i would advice u some sort of "non-multitask build", = no cors/dt or cors/rvr Try to understand the 2 base eco, so u know exactly when to add gates and pylons and all that stuff, which is why i would advise to get a "late" 3rd base (if u go for a fast 3rd base but it gets denied, and u are not used on playing on 2 base at that point, your pretty much bound to get 1k mineral which often loses u the game) edit: i cant stream right now because if i stream, each game turns into extra high lat.... and after 8 games straight extra high lat im more pissed than actually being able to learn something.... | ||
Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
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S2Glow
Singapore1042 Posts
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Jealous
10349 Posts
On March 20 2012 23:14 S2Glow wrote: went overpool , protoss 2gate on nat, respond with zerglings and a sunk on base , after have a bunch of lings. protoss decide to attack and i kill a couple of zealots. zealot retreat and build pylon forge to wall , alot of zealot stick like a wall. so my question is build how many lings and when to stop lings? In my experience doing 2 gate, having your overlord over his gateways will inform you how many zealots he is making, so it really depends on how many you see I guess? Also, I find that good simcity + sunk placement is crucial (duh) and can pretty much completely nullify any attack by toss. Another thing you should consider if his gates are out front of his nat is to do runbys or snipe the pylon or generally outmicro him when you get speed because he won't have speed for a while and that really blows for toss. Another good tactic is hiding a group of lings outside your nat so when he decides to enter your nat to attack it you flank him and he gets trapped, loses all his zeals, and thus loses all his momentum. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:19 Bakuryu wrote: ok, hacklebeast is partly wrong. z went for "some sort of 4 hatch lurker", he teched earlier, but because of taking gas too late to ensure a fast 3 hatch teching, he managed to jam in a 4th hatch. Because of his early double upgrades, his lurker tech got delayed, so they were "more or less"at the timing of the 4 hatch lurker. the 4 hatch lurker build is not designed to get a contain. because "normally" u get lurker out just in time to defend a +1 speedzeal (without corsair) and then u cant move out with your lurker because he still got his 10 or so zeals running around the map and is free to "block" your lurker/ runby in your main. the same applies to cors into +1 speedzeal, it just depends on the exact build p uses. u cant really contain a cors/dt player unless u build enough hydras/spore to defend both bases and your contain or else he has dt running around on the map (but making those hydras hurts z eco). cors/rvr is theoretically the best way to play vs 4 hatch lurker, but u can use any build that works and u are most comfortable with. the build that is "designed" to get a contain is the 3 hatch lurker build, because even vs +1 speedzeal your lurker are out fast enough to set up a contain at his base. (still a problem with freely running around zeals, but not that big because of earlier tech/more lurker.) u cant "not go for +1 speedzeal" after scouting him with corsair because u already choose to do it before that. And going +1 speedzeal after corsair is not bad. YES the floating 1,2k was bad, and also that the game was not over. but i guess u were already raging so hard on that damn lurker that u didnt even wanted to bother fighting them ^^ anyway, the biggest problem is that u have no build. Aside from the fact that your core was about 20 seconds to late, u played a cors into archives build for fast ht with storm, with zeal speed, a not correctly timed +1 attack and massing zeals. so u crossed an "aggressive build" with an "defensive build" resulting in weakening your own aggression. u normally get a 2nd gate while u make the templar archives when u go cors into archives (afaik... not 100% sure now), but because of all the other stuff u did, u were stuck on 1 gate forever. When u finally managed to add on gates (because of your build), u started making overmins. And because of all that, (and not actively trying to block lurker with zeals / or try to counter his bases) u got contained pretty easily. Because im not a p player, i cant give u any build, sry Based on your probe scout and cors scout, i would advice u some sort of "non-multitask build", = no cors/dt or cors/rvr Try to understand the 2 base eco, so u know exactly when to add gates and pylons and all that stuff, which is why i would advise to get a "late" 3rd base (if u go for a fast 3rd base but it gets denied, and u are not used on playing on 2 base at that point, your pretty much bound to get 1k mineral which often loses u the game) edit: i cant stream right now because if i stream, each game turns into extra high lat.... and after 8 games straight extra high lat im more pissed than actually being able to learn something.... I'd agree if zerg had gotten a 4th and looked like he was going to turtle. But because he was only on 3 bases and he built enough hydra/ling, a player at that level can't micro well enough to win a mid-map engagement with only speedlots, even if he did get a properly timed gateway. When I said he shouldn't have gone for the attack, I didn't mean don't get the upgrades, I meant he just should have stayed home with those zealots. The corsair was able to see that the sim cities at both bases was too strong for that attack to work. | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
On March 21 2012 01:27 hacklebeast wrote: I'd agree if zerg had gotten a 4th and looked like he was going to turtle. But because he was only on 3 bases and he built enough hydra/ling, a player at that level can't micro well enough to win a mid-map engagement with only speedlots, even if he did get a properly timed gateway. When I said he shouldn't have gone for the attack, I didn't mean don't get the upgrades, I meant he just should have stayed home with those zealots. The corsair was able to see that the sim cities at both bases was too strong for that attack to work. I didn`t expect him to come at me with the lurker attack. Bascically every PvZ I play is just ``take fast third + fourth, into build fuck ton of lurkers and sunks and spores , into ultra rush. Since I thought he was gonna play like a huge pussy I started raging and so when the attack actually came I just said screw that and left. Every PvZ I always feel like my macro or timings are off in the very beginning so I try to spend it on practical things like upgrades. When would be a normal time to just throw down a bunch of gates and be aggressive? If I stayed in the game how would I have fought off the contain? Should I have gotten range and made goons? Or just make templar + zeals for a big counter attack? + Show Spoiler + do you have any replays of people successfully breaking a lurker contain? | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
There are lots of options to break a contain. Building up large army is the simplest. He couldn't have gotten overlord speed with that build and had no scourge, so if you had continue corsair production you could have supply blocked him badly. You got a fast archives, and one DT would have broken the contain because he had little detection. You can pick at it slowly with lots of templar or even reaver/shuttle if you are feeling fancy. You can tend to do lots of damage with speedlot/dt/storm drops in the main. On certain maps you can elevator out either a good number of goons ot help you try to break it, or you can lift a probe out, expand, and completely ignore the contain. Lots of options. First rep comes to mind. Not exactly the same, but it shows how a protoss can be patient and slowly overcome a 3 base zerg. http://www.mediafire.com/?6v89ug8udg1b4k7 | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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TheGlassface
United States612 Posts
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mtwow789
67 Posts
PvZ is really about how prepared your build is. If you prepared +1 Speedlot properly, Zerg won't have enough to defend, or over spend money to make defensive units/building early. Move to Zerg's 3rd and check. If there are too many sunkens (3) or simcity is too good, go back to Zerg's natural. Force zerg to make sunkens on nat too. You can have zealots run around and kill off wandering units. Corsairs should also snipe ovies. +1 Speedlot is so effective that zerg has to prepare enough ling+hydras to engage. You can buy time to make HTs or DTs. Also, once you have speedlots, always scout around and do not let opponent to contain you so easily. If you check recent Jangbi vs. Action, you can see how easily you can break containments. Make robotics at nat and continue making reavers. While doing that, make 3 or more HTs. Then slowly advance with reaver and retreat back when hydras are trying to snipe reavers. While moving reaver back, use HT to storm on the chasing hydra. Once you have 3 reavers and 4 HT and about 12 goons, Zerg can't contain anymore. Reaver+HT will break any contains. | ||
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