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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
It is better than a 12 hat, that on a normal 3v3 is too slow, and it can be better than a 12 pool, because of more larva, that allows you bought to sunk more or to do more lings fast. it is different from a 9 pool speed, witch looks for a different strategy. in 2v2 i have found it to be much less usefull, as in manu matchupps you look for fast mutas, witch are better off 1 hat than 2 hat. | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula: hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now 8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do 9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery 10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
On December 06 2023 01:37 iopq wrote: I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula: hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now 8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do 9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery 10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order When do you make overlord with 9 hatch and 8 hatch after extractor trick? What if you do dobble extractor trick with nat extractor or when you have 2 gases in main ... What about triple extractor trick on such maps? What about fastest maps, how many extractor tricks would be economical before cancealing and than make overlord? Or on normal maps what number of extractor tricks drones is more economical than just making a overlord...? | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
On December 06 2023 10:41 Leonix wrote: When do you make overlord with 9 hatch and 8 hatch after extractor trick? What if you do dobble extractor trick with nat extractor or when you have 2 gases in main ... What about triple extractor trick on such maps? What about fastest maps, how many extractor tricks would be economical before cancealing and than make overlord? Or on normal maps what number of extractor tricks drones is more economical than just making a overlord...? I'm not measuring economical, the 8 hatch gets larva blocked while you're waiting for 300 minerals for hatchery and 50 minerals for drone. I extractor trick at 9 so that I don't get blocked again. In 9 hatch you have to extractor trick after overlord so you don't get blocked again. In both cases the extractor trick is preventing you from hitting 3 larva only, and 9 hatch is the most larva you can get being on two hatcheries. On fastest map it's an earlier hatchery that might make sense, but I tested the left side mineral spawn (the slower one that doesn't have mineral boosting) on standard maps. So if you're okay with a pool going down at like 12 hatch 13 pool timing (vs. Terran) you can make it after overlord-gas trick-2 drones (at 12 make pool) and gas immediately. That's going to be the 2.5 hatch muta build. Your third hatch will be delayed like 5 seconds as well, but that's not going to offset a whole 15 seconds faster second hatch. If you go 9 hatch - overlord - gas trick - 10 pool you'll still be able to spend your larvae and that's the fastest you can throw a pool down with the 9 hatch build without sacrificing a larva. But if you want a faster pool, you will need to pick a build that gets you to your desired timing. If you want the fastest larva on three hatcheries, that's also going to be a different optimization (depending on how fast you need the pool) | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
extractor trick 10 hatch overlord extractor trick 10 pool (like a 2 minute pool timing) 1:24 hatch with only a 3 second block waiting for the overlord so it's actually quite good if you don't throw the pool down immediately (since that blocks you) but it's just the same pool timing as the 10 pool with 9 hatch without any clear benefit (any extra money you mined was spent on the extra gas trick so it's basically a wash) | ||
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Jealous
10403 Posts
Extractor trick 10 overlord 10 hatch Not sure what the timings are on that in terms of larvae block, just figured you might want to test the option. | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
On December 06 2023 22:59 Jealous wrote: One option I haven't seen you describe yet that was used by at least one progamer several years ago is: Extractor trick 10 overlord 10 hatch Not sure what the timings are on that in terms of larvae block, just figured you might want to test the option. 9 overlord is already slower than 10 hatch, not sure how 10 overlord could be faster | ||
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Jealous
10403 Posts
On December 06 2023 23:31 iopq wrote: 9 overlord is already slower than 10 hatch, not sure how 10 overlord could be faster Because you burn one larva on the extractor trick AND the overlord, maybe? Seems like it uses an additional larva over straight up 10 hatch. Admittedly I don't have a good grasp of the larva timings for these builds but I find 10 over hatch to be really smooth to play, at least  | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
On December 07 2023 00:40 Jealous wrote: Because you burn one larva on the extractor trick AND the overlord, maybe? Seems like it uses an additional larva over straight up 10 hatch. Admittedly I don't have a good grasp of the larva timings for these builds but I find 10 over hatch to be really smooth to play, at least It's very simple, the hatch timing is everything. The 10 over hatch has no larva block, but you put down the hatch 63 minerals later than over 9 hatch. Off the top of my head, like 7 seconds later to decrease the block from 4 seconds to 0. But more interesting is to get a build that does the fastest larva from an earlier pool. 9 hatch can get it at like right before 2 minutes, but we probably want it a few seconds earlier vs. Protoss or Zerg, for example. edit: it's a 1:31 hatchery with no block, but the hatch is later than just going overlord hatch so what's the point? That's not going to be strictly more larvae than a 9 hatch | ||
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TT1
Canada10096 Posts
On December 06 2023 01:37 iopq wrote: I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula: hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now 8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do 9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery 10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order why 9 ovi before gas trick if u want an extra drone? if u 9h > 9p > gas trick > ovi u have the drone out earlier and still have the ovi out with 3 larva by the time ur pool's done | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
On December 07 2023 09:29 TT1 wrote: why 9 ovi before gas trick if u want an extra drone? if u 9h > 9p > gas trick > ovi u have the drone out earlier and still have the ovi out with 3 larva by the time ur pool's done we're trying not to float larvae by the time you 9 pool you are already floating at like 1:36, that's a completely different build with the aim of a ~1:45 pool which is one larva later than a 12 pool (1:30 timing) with an additional block you can throw it down on 10 at that 2:00 timing, or you can delay the pool to 2:06 and throw it down at 11 to prevent a 3 second larva block - at that point it's just trade-offs | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
1:23 hatch then a 22 second block so equivalent 1:45 hatch timing (bad) 1:42 pool (good) 9 hatch 9 pool 1:16 hatch 7 second block then because of pool another 12 second block 1:42 pool (good) 4 second block because pool is not quite ready yet so that's a 1:39 equivalent hatchery timing (good) 8 lings at the same time (great) vs. Zerg you can just put down the gas permanently after pool and before the overlord 2:01 gas 2:34 overlord and pool pop at the same time 2:51 lair or speed | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
1:35 hatchery 3 second block for the pool giving us 1:38 equivalent hatchery timing (good) 1:54 pool (bad) 2:01 gas this build is just too slow vs. 9 pool while offering no gas timing advantage or larva advantage, nobody should use this | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
1:30 pool (good) 1:58 hatch (bad) 2:01 gas (good) it's good vs. 9 pool, but at what a cost, you miss more than a larva, a big econ disadvantage vs. a hatch first build I would argue if you could hold with 9 hatch vs. a pool first (depends on maps), you should just use that build instead of 11 hatch or 12 pool | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
Is it more econmical to just instantly put the hatcheries in the long run because of additional larva or does non stop drone production with not losing drones for the buildings benefit more economically, regardless if we just put them in the main or not? And in that case would 9 overlord or 12 overlord with extractor trick 1 /2nd extractor trick at nat /3rd extractor trick at 3rd base, be more efficient economical since you get rid of larva instantly and dont need to care since you will build the pool and hatches latter at like 500/550 or 850minerals, if also include the gas? | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On December 11 2023 05:41 Leonix wrote: What if i want maximal eco with maximal larva usage, like putting 1 hatchery or 2 and the pool and maybe a gas at the same time, so drones are mining longer ... Is it more econmical to just instantly put the hatcheries in the long run because of additional larva or does non stop drone production with not losing drones for the buildings benefit more economically, regardless if we just put them in the main or not? And in that case would 9 overlord or 12 overlord with extractor trick 1 /2nd extractor trick at nat /3rd extractor trick at 3rd base, be more efficient economical since you get rid of larva instantly and dont need to care since you will build the pool and hatches latter at like 500/550 or 850minerals, if also include the gas? I have similar questions. If you want maximal economy, you can just summarize each drone harvests nearly 12.39 minerals in between each larva using data from "Ideal mining thoughts" thread. The extractor trick uses ~13 minerals, so you essentially lose 1 drone's mining time on top of the busy drone doing the extractor trick. The overlord hatches in 25 seconds, before two periods of larvae. I checked on the best extractor timing. If you make an extractor in 25 seconds and pool in 50 seconds, you should be able to harvest 50 gas in 10 seconds with 3 drones and start a Hydralisk Den by the pool spawning time, if you make the extractor 15 seconds after the pool. That is roughly 1/4th to 1/3rd of the pool build time, also just over a larva cycle of 12.6 seconds. I also checked nonstop droning. The payoff meets a rapid decline after each drone mines a patch of minerals according to the other thread. I asked how soon would that take effect. Even by the 15 drone mark, there is an 18% advantage to mining from an expansion rather than pooling 15 drones in a single base. I think it is remarkable harvesting ~885 minerals versus ~750 minerals each minute. In summary, I think the best expansion time is at near the 9 drone mark. You make the hatchery and concentrate the hatching larva on overlord, pool, extractor, hydralisk den without succumbing to the mineral patch limit. At a moment, we already used 7 larvae which is 2 more than the time it takes for the hatchery to spring up. | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
On December 11 2023 05:41 Leonix wrote: What if i want maximal eco with maximal larva usage, like putting 1 hatchery or 2 and the pool and maybe a gas at the same time, so drones are mining longer ... Is it more econmical to just instantly put the hatcheries in the long run because of additional larva or does non stop drone production with not losing drones for the buildings benefit more economically, regardless if we just put them in the main or not? And in that case would 9 overlord or 12 overlord with extractor trick 1 /2nd extractor trick at nat /3rd extractor trick at 3rd base, be more efficient economical since you get rid of larva instantly and dont need to care since you will build the pool and hatches latter at like 500/550 or 850minerals, if also include the gas? If you delay hatchery, you get the first larva from it later If you make it too early, you block your initial hatchery from making anything because you're waiting for money. The common wisdom was to avoid 3 larvae at all costs, but actually I've found it's still better to throw down a 15 second earlier hatchery if you get larva blocked for less than 15 seconds. You get slightly less minerals, but the extra larva will eventually equalize when you spent all of the larvae so you will be getting the final ~60 extra minerals a minute for a longer time since you don't need to bank as many larvae before muta | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
tl.net | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
https://repmastered.app/game/3Q5y-iR3Kl85j_HZ7YvezrlRSFKf-23an5O5vzmYOMI it's not bad, have 6 mutas coming out at 5:27, waiting for the next gas to get a 7th muta or start +1, have 26 drones and a bunch of money (assume terran didn't move out with m&m) but 9 hatch is better when we're not forced to make sunkens https://repmastered.app/game/ireko3xTNT2aKl2DFer77ZJr1RNfINggyBARzZlCoTo it's roughly the same everything, zergling speed a bit slower, but we just have two more drones and 100 minerals less at the same timing - we were at a mineral disadvantage most of the replay, but by the time mutas come out we're roughly even and have two more larvae for free that we made into drones how? hatchery down at 1:15, larva block 1:13-1:19 (same as getting second hatchery down at 1:21 without a block) third hatchery down at 3:36 vs. hatchery down at 1:36, no larva block third hatchery down at 3:32 we have 15 seconds of larva production earlier, then it shrinks by 4 seconds, but we always have that one larva advantage I guess I should have droned to 28 in the standard build because I got larva blocked by the end, but people don't do this to fit one more muta before overlord, which we don't necessarily need to do with the 9 hatch build because we make units until 29 supply before muta | ||
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iopq
United States1185 Posts
it's 7 seconds of larva production for like 16-24 minerals loss which is something you will get back when your faster hatchery is up and your faster first expansion drone is mining the best mineral EDIT: click up at the natural to get a faster Lair, the larva will spawn at 3:58 or 3:59 depending on the hatch timing which means you can get a faster Lair at say 2:56 or 2:57 and still get an extra larva when it pops so the build would be: 9 ov 10 hatch 12 pool 11 gas + scout 15 lings + Lair at natural to spawn the larva at the correct timing since we're like 5 seconds ahead of 12/12 17 overlord 18 hatch 21 spire 20 gas zergling speed there's really no reason to extractor trick, it gains you like 3 minerals in the best case and you can mess it up and lose minerals, it might be better on 10 mineral maps where you can just put it on a free mineral, but basically a wash | ||
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