EPT9 hatch vs 10 hatch vs 12 hatch - Page 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Daverave
United Kingdom7 Posts
| ||
|
CrazyLurker
6 Posts
This build i call it "maximum larva build" from 2 hatches because isnt other that gives such an amount of larva with 2 hatch opening.And its like this: -9th drone u make second hatch on natural -after that u make 1 drone 1 overlord and 1 drone with extractor trick in that order -at 11th population u make pool(i need to mention that pool is 5-7 second later than as normal 12 hatch) This build as i said is good only if u plan going 2 hatch opening and imo it does this job better than 12 hatch.But this comes with a price u are abit more vulnerable to chesse opening (bunker rush 9/9 gate proxy gates) since lings comes some seconds later compared to 12 hatch but if u hang on till lings comes out and u save the larva u will have a burst of 10-12 lings and u can overwhelm the chesse. | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
| ||
|
CrazyLurker
6 Posts
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me. 10 hatch hasnt more larva.Only 9 hatch has it,because larva stagnate is only 8 seconds(with 3 larvas hoovering arround blocking larva timer) but u put 2nd hatch at 2:17 wich means ~25 seconds seconds earlier than 12 hatch.So 25 seconds gained minus 8 seconds as larva block gives you 17 seconds bonus in larva production and 13 seconds is the rate in wich larva comes.And i would not recommend this opening in zvz because it dies to 9 pool and 12 pool but vs 12 hatch i think is viable since u can have a better drone count and not so much behind in tech,u dont need to go all in with lings vs 12 hatch. Simply puted 12 hatch opening is better when u go straight 3 hatch before gas(zvp for example or when going 3 hatch muta zvt).But 9 hatch has the potential to outproduce 12 hatch not just in supply count but also in economy after 4 minute mark(till than is in deficit in eco),and thats why i think this build is viable zvt and zvp only when going 2 hatch before gas opening. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On January 04 2014 16:41 CrazyLurker wrote: I did some tests myself some time ago and i find out that 9 hatch in the long run has the potential to be most "eco" opening from all even than 12 hatch and it focuses on maximum larva count that u can get but only if u plan to go 2 hatches as opening (as 2 hatch muta/lurker zvt wich i pretty much recommend if plan to do so) .Its sacrifice some minerals(abit of larva stagnating with some drones coming later than usual) but 2nd hatch comes much much earlier that summed with first hatch gives an extra larva advantage that can be converted into 1 drone advantage compared to 12 hatch.The loss of minerals is about 100-150 from my calculation compared to 12 hatch.By gaining an extra larva from 2nd hatch u can recover this inital loss in arround 2 minute and after that is only profit. This build i call it "maximum larva build" from 2 hatches because isnt other that gives such an amount of larva with 2 hatch opening.And its like this: -9th drone u make second hatch on natural -after that u make 1 drone 1 overlord and 1 drone with extractor trick in that order -at 11th population u make pool(i need to mention that pool is 5-7 second later than as normal 12 hatch) This build as i said is good only if u plan going 2 hatch opening and imo it does this job better than 12 hatch.But this comes with a price u are abit more vulnerable to chesse opening (bunker rush 9/9 gate proxy gates) since lings comes some seconds later compared to 12 hatch but if u hang on till lings comes out and u save the larva u will have a burst of 10-12 lings and u can overwhelm the chesse. cool stuff. so you are saying i cannot go 3 hatch muta with this build? yeah 5 seconds later pool would be difficult on fish. hard enough to stop cheese with 12 hatch. ill try 2 hatch with this! | ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
You go: 8/9 hatchery 7/9 get 2 drones 9/9 overlord gas trick for 10/9 population You get something like 10 seconds earlier Zerglings, so if a Terran builds a bunker at your natural, you can just kick their shit in. I don't really see any flaws in this style of play except that it doesn't allow you to do FUCKING ANYTHING. | ||
|
Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me. Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either 1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or 2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage. | ||
|
dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
On January 05 2014 01:03 ninazerg wrote: Have you tried going 8-hatch? I find that this build allows your natural hatchery to pop almost 20 seconds sooner, giving you no down-time for your larva if you do it right. You go: 8/9 hatchery 7/9 get 2 drones 9/9 overlord gas trick for 10/9 population You get something like 10 seconds earlier Zerglings, so if a Terran builds a bunker at your natural, you can just kick their shit in. I don't really see any flaws in this style of play except that it doesn't allow you to do FUCKING ANYTHING. LOOOOOOOOL +1 winning | ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 05 2014 08:24 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either 1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or 2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage. If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up. | ||
|
Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On January 05 2014 09:42 ninazerg wrote: If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up. Assuming they also made sunkens I mean. Though I'm no expert! | ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 05 2014 12:21 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Assuming they also made sunkens I mean. Though I'm no expert! Nah, they can also get sunken and be fine. I know it sounds like I'm saying 12 hatch has no weaknesses, but it's just strong against 9 hatch as an opening build, but against like 9pool, it's almost impossible to defend. | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On January 04 2014 18:12 CrazyLurker wrote: Assuming the 9 pool player went straight to your natural with all of his lings right away, which is by no means a given on most maps, and quite a few two player maps have slightly longer rush distances even in that event, your lings off a 9 hatch will pop just as he reaches your natural. Which means you deflect his attack easily and can overrun him pretty hard afterwards, thats why its a useful cheese in zvz. 10 hatch is only slightly more difficult, by a couple of seconds, its not countered by a 9 pool.10 hatch hasnt more larva.Only 9 hatch has it,because larva stagnate is only 8 seconds(with 3 larvas hoovering arround blocking larva timer) but u put 2nd hatch at 2:17 wich means ~25 seconds seconds earlier than 12 hatch.So 25 seconds gained minus 8 seconds as larva block gives you 17 seconds bonus in larva production and 13 seconds is the rate in wich larva comes.And i would not recommend this opening in zvz because it dies to 9 pool and 12 pool but vs 12 hatch i think is viable since u can have a better drone count and not so much behind in tech,u dont need to go all in with lings vs 12 hatch. Simply puted 12 hatch opening is better when u go straight 3 hatch before gas(zvp for example or when going 3 hatch muta zvt).But 9 hatch has the potential to outproduce 12 hatch not just in supply count but also in economy after 4 minute mark(till than is in deficit in eco),and thats why i think this build is viable zvt and zvp only when going 2 hatch before gas opening. 12 pool has a worse larva count than a 9 hatch temporarily, which can, again, be used to ling bust fairly successfully. 12 hatch can outproduce you on every front with zero difficulty. | ||
|
tjinn
1 Post
| ||
|
Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
- 10 hatch - 10 pool - 10 overlord - gas if I want to tech - 8 lings or 4 drones depending on scouting information - sunken(s) if I need to defend - hatch if I want to eco It is a rather flexible build order in my opinion. Ever since doing this I don't (usually) have any problems with 2gate or bunker rush. ZvZ is a different topic tho... | ||
|
iopq
United States1079 Posts
9 hatch extractor trick 10/9 overlord 10/9 pool drone 10/17 gas let's compare with Soma's 12 hatch, 12 pool, 12 gas build - I executed both myself without mineral boosting to be fair 12 hatch got hatch down at 1:44 and scout a second later pool at 2:06 gas at 2:18 lair at 3:07 at 15 supply and a larva pops at that time so 148 minerals 16 supply at that time (I could make a drone now) with no other larva 9 hatch at 1:13 my larvae get blocked at 1:14 I get my hatch down (30 seconds earlier) at 1:22 I get another drone (9 seconds of larva block) at 2:01 I put my pool down (earlier!) at 2:05 I scout (20 seconds later) gas at 2:13 (earlier!) lair at 3:02 (earlier!) at 3:06 I have 65 minerals and 3 larvae so if we make a drone that's 15 minerals, 2 larvae, 16 supply but let's compare against 12 hatch 12 pool 11 gas with a later scout to equalize a bit I got a slightly faster hatch at 1:41 because drone didn't bug out pathing LUL at 2:04 pool then scout gas at 2:10 lair at 3:02 at 3:06 I have 16 supply, 148 minerals so these builds are comparable - at a cost of 133 minerals you get a larva you can't afford a third hatchery until 4:15 at 4:18 I had at 4:22 I had 126 minerals (about to make gas) two larvae, spire/zergling speed on the way, 2 zerglings, 23 supply let's do the same thing continuing a 9 hatch build trying it out again this time the drone pathing was weird so I only had hatch down at 1:17 at 2:01 pool down and scout messed up gas timing so it's 2:14 at 3:04 lair at 3:07 I do have 23 minerals so I got one more trip compared to the previous attempt at 4:16 I had 189 minerals, 24 supply, 2 larvae so I'm having the same number of larvae now until an extra one spawns at 4:21 (bad luck? I should have one more larvae since I didn't get larva blocked after I did the 9 hatch, maybe because the drone danced too long) at 4:23 I put down the third hatchery, have 3 larvae, 25 minerals, spire/zergling speed on the way, 2 zerglings, 23 supply in the end, it's a tiny difference, between my attempts a few seconds here and there actually change the outcome - but when executed correctly should give you smaller and smaller difference - by the time you get the third hatchery up the drone that was mining all this time will have made you back the minerals if I do the build better maybe I will see the one drone mining back the minerals in two minutes and getting the third hatch down in around the same time - then there will actually be a drone advantage until you stop making drones which will turn into an army advantage, but I will probably have to do it later because doing it all the way until 4:15 or whatever is very boring | ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Edit: Resources gathered = Resource tab "Minerals". | ||
|
Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1894 Posts
10 hatch (extractor trick twice, before hatch and after pool, before overlord) Pool comes up at 2:36 at 2:50 mark 246 minerals and 15 drones BUT NO OVERLORD YET 12 hatch Pool comes up at 2:51 at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running. 9 hatch: Pool comes up at 2:37. at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals. Here's a trick. | ||
|
Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
| ||
Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
| ||
|
Timebon3s
Norway764 Posts
It was the best thing ever, miss it so much | ||
| ||
