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9 hatch vs 10 hatch vs 12 hatch - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Daverave
Profile Joined August 2009
United Kingdom7 Posts
November 30 2009 11:00 GMT
#21
9 pools the way forward mate
Daves The Name 9 Pools The Game
CrazyLurker
Profile Joined December 2012
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 09:50:03
January 04 2014 07:41 GMT
#22
I did some tests myself some time ago and i find out that 9 hatch in the long run has the potential to be most "eco" opening from all even than 12 hatch and it focuses on maximum larva count that u can get but only if u plan to go 2 hatches as opening (as 2 hatch muta/lurker zvt wich i pretty much recommend if plan to do so) .It sacrifices some minerals(abit of larva stagnating with some drones coming later than usual) but 2nd hatch comes much much earlier that summed with first hatch gives an extra larva advantage that can be converted into 1 drone advantage compared to 12 hatch.The loss of minerals is about 100-150 from my calculation compared to 12 hatch.By gaining an extra larva from 2nd hatch u can recover this inital loss in arround 2 minute and after that is only profit.
This build i call it "maximum larva build" from 2 hatches because isnt other that gives such an amount of larva with 2 hatch opening.And its like this:
-9th drone u make second hatch on natural
-after that u make 1 drone 1 overlord and 1 drone with extractor trick in that order
-at 11th population u make pool(i need to mention that pool is 5-7 second later than as normal 12 hatch)
This build as i said is good only if u plan going 2 hatch opening and imo it does this job better than 12 hatch.But this comes with a price u are abit more vulnerable to chesse opening (bunker rush 9/9 gate proxy gates) since lings comes some seconds later compared to 12 hatch but if u hang on till lings comes out and u save the larva u will have a burst of 10-12 lings and u can overwhelm the chesse.
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
January 04 2014 08:30 GMT
#23
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
CrazyLurker
Profile Joined December 2012
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 09:36:02
January 04 2014 09:12 GMT
#24
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.

10 hatch hasnt more larva.Only 9 hatch has it,because larva stagnate is only 8 seconds(with 3 larvas hoovering arround blocking larva timer) but u put 2nd hatch at 2:17 wich means ~25 seconds seconds earlier than 12 hatch.So 25 seconds gained minus 8 seconds as larva block gives you 17 seconds bonus in larva production and 13 seconds is the rate in wich larva comes.And i would not recommend this opening in zvz because it dies to 9 pool and 12 pool but vs 12 hatch i think is viable since u can have a better drone count and not so much behind in tech,u dont need to go all in with lings vs 12 hatch.
Simply puted 12 hatch opening is better when u go straight 3 hatch before gas(zvp for example or when going 3 hatch muta zvt).But 9 hatch has the potential to outproduce 12 hatch not just in supply count but also in economy after 4 minute mark(till than is in deficit in eco),and thats why i think this build is viable zvt and zvp only when going 2 hatch before gas opening.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
January 04 2014 09:48 GMT
#25
On January 04 2014 16:41 CrazyLurker wrote:
I did some tests myself some time ago and i find out that 9 hatch in the long run has the potential to be most "eco" opening from all even than 12 hatch and it focuses on maximum larva count that u can get but only if u plan to go 2 hatches as opening (as 2 hatch muta/lurker zvt wich i pretty much recommend if plan to do so) .Its sacrifice some minerals(abit of larva stagnating with some drones coming later than usual) but 2nd hatch comes much much earlier that summed with first hatch gives an extra larva advantage that can be converted into 1 drone advantage compared to 12 hatch.The loss of minerals is about 100-150 from my calculation compared to 12 hatch.By gaining an extra larva from 2nd hatch u can recover this inital loss in arround 2 minute and after that is only profit.
This build i call it "maximum larva build" from 2 hatches because isnt other that gives such an amount of larva with 2 hatch opening.And its like this:
-9th drone u make second hatch on natural
-after that u make 1 drone 1 overlord and 1 drone with extractor trick in that order
-at 11th population u make pool(i need to mention that pool is 5-7 second later than as normal 12 hatch)
This build as i said is good only if u plan going 2 hatch opening and imo it does this job better than 12 hatch.But this comes with a price u are abit more vulnerable to chesse opening (bunker rush 9/9 gate proxy gates) since lings comes some seconds later compared to 12 hatch but if u hang on till lings comes out and u save the larva u will have a burst of 10-12 lings and u can overwhelm the chesse.


cool stuff. so you are saying i cannot go 3 hatch muta with this build? yeah 5 seconds later pool would be difficult on fish. hard enough to stop cheese with 12 hatch. ill try 2 hatch with this!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
January 04 2014 16:03 GMT
#26
Have you tried going 8-hatch? I find that this build allows your natural hatchery to pop almost 20 seconds sooner, giving you no down-time for your larva if you do it right.

You go:

8/9 hatchery
7/9 get 2 drones
9/9 overlord
gas trick for 10/9 population

You get something like 10 seconds earlier Zerglings, so if a Terran builds a bunker at your natural, you can just kick their shit in. I don't really see any flaws in this style of play except that it doesn't allow you to do FUCKING ANYTHING.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Xenocide_Knight
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Korea (South)2625 Posts
January 04 2014 23:24 GMT
#27
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.

Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either
1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or
2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.
Shine[Kal] #1 fan
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
January 05 2014 00:40 GMT
#28
On January 05 2014 01:03 ninazerg wrote:
Have you tried going 8-hatch? I find that this build allows your natural hatchery to pop almost 20 seconds sooner, giving you no down-time for your larva if you do it right.

You go:

8/9 hatchery
7/9 get 2 drones
9/9 overlord
gas trick for 10/9 population

You get something like 10 seconds earlier Zerglings, so if a Terran builds a bunker at your natural, you can just kick their shit in. I don't really see any flaws in this style of play except that it doesn't allow you to do FUCKING ANYTHING.



LOOOOOOOOL +1 winning
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
January 05 2014 00:42 GMT
#29
On January 05 2014 08:24 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.

Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either
1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or
2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.


If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Xenocide_Knight
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Korea (South)2625 Posts
January 05 2014 03:21 GMT
#30
On January 05 2014 09:42 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 08:24 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.

Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either
1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or
2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.


If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up.

Assuming they also made sunkens I mean. Though I'm no expert!
Shine[Kal] #1 fan
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
January 05 2014 06:07 GMT
#31
On January 05 2014 12:21 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 09:42 ninazerg wrote:
On January 05 2014 08:24 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.

Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either
1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or
2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.


If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up.

Assuming they also made sunkens I mean. Though I'm no expert!


Nah, they can also get sunken and be fine. I know it sounds like I'm saying 12 hatch has no weaknesses, but it's just strong against 9 hatch as an opening build, but against like 9pool, it's almost impossible to defend.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
January 05 2014 10:42 GMT
#32
On January 04 2014 18:12 CrazyLurker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.

10 hatch hasnt more larva.Only 9 hatch has it,because larva stagnate is only 8 seconds(with 3 larvas hoovering arround blocking larva timer) but u put 2nd hatch at 2:17 wich means ~25 seconds seconds earlier than 12 hatch.So 25 seconds gained minus 8 seconds as larva block gives you 17 seconds bonus in larva production and 13 seconds is the rate in wich larva comes.And i would not recommend this opening in zvz because it dies to 9 pool and 12 pool but vs 12 hatch i think is viable since u can have a better drone count and not so much behind in tech,u dont need to go all in with lings vs 12 hatch.
Simply puted 12 hatch opening is better when u go straight 3 hatch before gas(zvp for example or when going 3 hatch muta zvt).But 9 hatch has the potential to outproduce 12 hatch not just in supply count but also in economy after 4 minute mark(till than is in deficit in eco),and thats why i think this build is viable zvt and zvp only when going 2 hatch before gas opening.
Assuming the 9 pool player went straight to your natural with all of his lings right away, which is by no means a given on most maps, and quite a few two player maps have slightly longer rush distances even in that event, your lings off a 9 hatch will pop just as he reaches your natural. Which means you deflect his attack easily and can overrun him pretty hard afterwards, thats why its a useful cheese in zvz. 10 hatch is only slightly more difficult, by a couple of seconds, its not countered by a 9 pool.

12 pool has a worse larva count than a 9 hatch temporarily, which can, again, be used to ling bust fairly successfully. 12 hatch can outproduce you on every front with zero difficulty.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
tjinn
Profile Joined January 2014
1 Post
Last Edited: 2014-01-31 22:39:35
January 31 2014 22:00 GMT
#33
well i do a 9hatch 9pool 9ovy then 9gas vs terran lair starts at 3:08. and come out with my 3rd hatch getting done with spire and mutas coming out at 6 mins with extra gas and money for either +1attack or carapace for flying units http://speedy.sh/CWJcj/Genosuicide-vs-punisher-248.rep for replay. you make up your economy from the speedy expo and extra larva. Or vs Protoss since they FE so much ive won tons of games by going 9hatch speedling just a lil switch up by getting gas be4 ovy then speed at 100 and take drones off gas then 2hatchs pumping zerglings almost always gg unless they do a zergling proof wall which i only ran into after playing some1 the same way like 7 times. heres a replay of this build http://speedy.sh/a4ekG/thejinn-vs-cokacola.rep even in zvz with 9hatch a 9pool really isnt effective because ur zerglings will get out right when his get to ur base but because your going 2base vs 1base you may need a spore in each base as in this replay - http://www.speedyshare.com/ArMzh/thejinn-vs-flyingjelly.rep funny when ppl say the tech on a 12 hatch is faster because it isnt, as you can clearly see from the replays. a 9hatch is very versatile and a very safe build from rushes and you dont have to worry about that pesky probe stopping your expo.
Frigo
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary1023 Posts
February 22 2014 14:04 GMT
#34
My standard build is something like the following:
- 10 hatch
- 10 pool
- 10 overlord
- gas if I want to tech
- 8 lings or 4 drones depending on scouting information
- sunken(s) if I need to defend
- hatch if I want to eco

It is a rather flexible build order in my opinion. Ever since doing this I don't (usually) have any problems with 2gate or bunker rush. ZvZ is a different topic tho...
http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Treasure_Chest
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
September 06 2021 06:46 GMT
#35
I did this on the top position of eclipse

9 hatch
extractor trick
10/9 overlord
10/9 pool
drone
10/17 gas

let's compare with Soma's 12 hatch, 12 pool, 12 gas build - I executed both myself without mineral boosting to be fair

12 hatch got hatch down at 1:44 and scout a second later
pool at 2:06
gas at 2:18
lair at 3:07 at 15 supply and a larva pops at that time so 148 minerals 16 supply at that time (I could make a drone now) with no other larva

9 hatch at 1:13 my larvae get blocked
at 1:14 I get my hatch down (30 seconds earlier)
at 1:22 I get another drone (9 seconds of larva block)
at 2:01 I put my pool down (earlier!)
at 2:05 I scout (20 seconds later)
gas at 2:13 (earlier!)
lair at 3:02 (earlier!)
at 3:06 I have 65 minerals and 3 larvae so if we make a drone that's 15 minerals, 2 larvae, 16 supply

but let's compare against 12 hatch 12 pool 11 gas with a later scout to equalize a bit

I got a slightly faster hatch at 1:41 because drone didn't bug out pathing LUL
at 2:04 pool then scout
gas at 2:10
lair at 3:02
at 3:06 I have 16 supply, 148 minerals

so these builds are comparable - at a cost of 133 minerals you get a larva
you can't afford a third hatchery until 4:15

at 4:18 I had
at 4:22 I had 126 minerals (about to make gas) two larvae, spire/zergling speed on the way, 2 zerglings, 23 supply

let's do the same thing continuing a 9 hatch build trying it out again

this time the drone pathing was weird so I only had hatch down at 1:17
at 2:01 pool down and scout
messed up gas timing so it's 2:14
at 3:04 lair
at 3:07 I do have 23 minerals so I got one more trip compared to the previous attempt

at 4:16 I had 189 minerals, 24 supply, 2 larvae so I'm having the same number of larvae now until an extra one spawns at 4:21 (bad luck? I should have one more larvae since I didn't get larva blocked after I did the 9 hatch, maybe because the drone danced too long)
at 4:23 I put down the third hatchery, have 3 larvae, 25 minerals, spire/zergling speed on the way, 2 zerglings, 23 supply

in the end, it's a tiny difference, between my attempts a few seconds here and there actually change the outcome - but when executed correctly should give you smaller and smaller difference - by the time you get the third hatchery up the drone that was mining all this time will have made you back the minerals

if I do the build better maybe I will see the one drone mining back the minerals in two minutes and getting the third hatch down in around the same time - then there will actually be a drone advantage until you stop making drones which will turn into an army advantage, but I will probably have to do it later because doing it all the way until 4:15 or whatever is very boring
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-09-06 16:06:27
September 06 2021 15:59 GMT
#36
My testing: https://pastebin.com/raw/2Zkr0RHW

Edit: Resources gathered = Resource tab "Minerals".

-.-
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1893 Posts
September 07 2021 01:53 GMT
#37
10 hatch (extractor trick twice, before hatch and after pool, before overlord)
Pool comes up at 2:36
at 2:50 mark 246 minerals and 15 drones BUT NO OVERLORD YET

12 hatch
Pool comes up at 2:51
at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.

9 hatch:
Pool comes up at 2:37.
at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals.

Here's a trick.
patyrykin.net
Lightswarm
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada966 Posts
September 07 2021 03:25 GMT
#38
what a thread necro. glad it's being brought up seeing Soma push for the 9 or 10 hatch builds
Team[AoV]
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25979 Posts
September 20 2021 00:35 GMT
#39
Interesting - thanks for posting! It's really helpful seeing the results.
Moderator
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway685 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-09-20 16:24:33
September 20 2021 16:24 GMT
#40
Chill why dont u, fakesteve, fakeklazart, hotbid etc etc host another brood war tl attack like back in the days :D
It was the best thing ever, miss it so much
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