EPTI did try to boost on the left side here, but the results were probably meh because I missed a lot of the boosts
9 hatch vs 10 hatch vs 12 hatch - Page 4
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
I did try to boost on the left side here, but the results were probably meh because I missed a lot of the boosts | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On December 21 2023 19:37 iopq wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nenMB0Wgzhs I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though Yes. These builds are nice, the only question in my mind is if they are mainstream, or greedy builds. PS: apart from that this is a pretty good build. The Lair larva block lasted just 8 seconds(5:17-5:25). | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
11 hatch is mainstream, 10 hatch with a faster lair is more aggressive | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5680 Posts
Your point is mutas can be out earlier without loss of larvae, right? Of course this will result in a later 3rd (4th) as a result. How valuable is that? You get to force turrets earlier and get 2 more folleys in before marine stim n range hits, you essentially slow Terran in trade of a slower 3rd. So can assume the net total is the similar? One build is more aggro, while the other is a bit more macro game orientated. | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
On December 22 2023 11:21 Peeano wrote: Looks like both versions can be tweaked just a bit more to get 700/700 when spire pops for all 7 available larvae? Perhaps it requires decent mineral boosting to get it done, but maybe that is beside the point? Your point is mutas can be out earlier without loss of larvae, right? Of course this will result in a later 3rd (4th) as a result. How valuable is that? You get to force turrets earlier and get 2 more folleys in before marine stim n range hits, you essentially slow Terran in trade of a slower 3rd. So can assume the net total is the similar? One build is more aggro, while the other is a bit more macro game orientated. My point is you don't want to have 700/700 because it means you could have gotten your spire earlier and not be waiting with a larva block. | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
On December 22 2023 11:21 Peeano wrote: Looks like both versions can be tweaked just a bit more to get 700/700 when spire pops for all 7 available larvae? Perhaps it requires decent mineral boosting to get it done, but maybe that is beside the point? Your point is mutas can be out earlier without loss of larvae, right? Of course this will result in a later 3rd (4th) as a result. How valuable is that? You get to force turrets earlier and get 2 more folleys in before marine stim n range hits, you essentially slow Terran in trade of a slower 3rd. So can assume the net total is the similar? One build is more aggro, while the other is a bit more macro game orientated. I forgot to mention: later third doesn't mean less economy because your total drone count matters too. You can get an even faster third by going 11/10/10 and lair at 2:48 (Soulkey plays this). You get a third base as your third hatchery, but your economy is worse because you have less production overall, fewer drones. But I will admit that 11/10/10 is an optimal build for a 2:48 Lair because you'll get larva blocked if you try to cut it any closer. So I'm filling in the gaps: 11/10/10 is optimal for a 2:48 Lair (either hatchery since they are synced) 10/12/11 is optimal for a 2:57 Lair if you use your expansion hatchery any/12/12 is optimal for a 3:02 Lair if you use your main hatchery but then you can also optimize the 3 hatchery before Lair build by throwing down the gas before the third hatchery as well | ||
|
mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
At 9/9, you can spend 500 minerals for +8 drones and mine precisely 50% more minerals per minute on top of the 9 drones in the main, or spend 850 and mine 89% more. I think there is a precise drone cutoff point when mining from the second base becomes more economic and minute decisions might bring a lead. | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
So the next drone is at 1:26 before the larva spawns, so overhatch is the best build to get early larva from two hatcheries without sacrificing too many minerals https://repmastered.app/game/b3B6hb1PHN6M_VdhvM_d79WNUq_DZH00U501coUM8Bo | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States924 Posts
On December 21 2023 19:37 iopq wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nenMB0Wgzhs I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though It's kinda disrepectful to be dismissing pro's build. Lot of foreigners don't know how much thought process they put into their builds in all situations, considering that it's literally their livelihood and a slight advantage can earn them a lot of money. There's a reason why they're doing 12 hat or 11 hat in some cases. In your 11 hat, your hatchery goes up at 1:36 while pro's goes up at 1:34 (This is pretty easy to do). You're making only 2 lings which eliminates your opportunity to backstab with your 6 lings when MnM pushes out which hinders their eco slightly and more importantly, you're setting yourself up possibly dying to a straight up 4:50 MnM push out because 2 sunks will die to a 2 medic MnM army. If you make 3 sunks vs 4:50 push out your behind a lot. If you make 6 lings and drone scout your eco will be tanked and not even comparable to what 12 hat will produce. They 12 hat because they can still make 7 mutas DESPITE them making 6 speed lings and drone scouting. You're saying "Look I can make 7 mutas with 1 extra drone" That's because you never scouted with drone and made 6 lings. If you never scout with drone you will have hard time defending vs 8 rax. It is also extremely risky that you're making 2 drones and makin your pool at like 2:03 pool. You're getting destroyed by 8 rax because your pool will be too late and if you do send all your drones (10) your eco will be destroyed. There's a reason why pros go 11 hat and then straight into 10 pool (1:51 pool) and only send 4 drones to prevent bunker from being made. They can defend if T bunker doesn't go up by 2:55 if they go 11 hat 10 pool (1:51 pool). If they made drone there's literally no reason why they even went 11 hat. Pros go 11 hat ONLY to make sure 8 rax is defended. I won't even mention 10 hat because that build will straight up get countered by 8rax. I'm not even mentioning the most recent meta where terran delays their cc to 2:52 and send 4 rines across the map. In response you make 6 lings early on and your eco will be destroyed with 10 hat/11hat. Good terran will see you only have 2 lings and constantly pressure you. Do 12 hat with only 2 lings and see how much minerals/gas you have compared to 11 hat/10hat at 5:20. Go on. | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
On March 31 2024 02:30 Shinokuki wrote: It's kinda disrepectful to be dismissing pro's build. Lot of foreigners don't know how much thought process they put into their builds in all situations, considering that it's literally their livelihood and a slight advantage can earn them a lot of money. There's a reason why they're doing 12 hat or 11 hat in some cases. In your 11 hat, your hatchery goes up at 1:36 while pro's goes up at 1:34 (This is pretty easy to do). Let me stop you right there, this build was with no micromanagement of my drones by design. It's for beginners who don't know how to boost When I 11 hatch in real life, especially on top side or right side minerals I can hit 1:31 hatchery how many lings you make is not dependent on whether you go 12 hatch or 11 hatch, that's a strategic choice up to you the point is going 12 hatch is always going to give up 5 seconds of larva production and 5 seconds of mining the best expansion patches so it's not ideal unless you're going 3 hatch before Lair, since you can't make that deficit up until you get a third hatchery 11 hatch 10/11 pool 10 gas is ideal for a 2:48 Lair, it's the build Queen does, so I'm not alone in saying 11 hatch is better in this case (you lose like 16 minerals in exchange for a 5 second faster drones from the second hatchery) ==== the next best timing is the next larva Lair which is a 2:14 gas where you can do an even earlier second hatchery Here is 9 overlord -> hatch where I got a 1:21 hatchery with a 1 second larva block (it's possible to get the drone at 1:26 if you boost accurately) I have enough for a pool at 1:56, but I could just pool at 10 and have it at 1:51 (this is the tightest timing since the larva spawns at 1:56) but in reality it's cutting it exactly to the second so you can relax the build to 11 pool I still get the Lair at 3:02 and get a new larva at 4:04 and Lair larva at 4:06 so I could actually still cut another second and Lair at 3:01 https://repmastered.app/game/60ZpP2A1iPgS3BRJnsyhB98TsZ6huyFCdzXZfDzTTkM I should just make another overlord on the third hatchery since I got larva blocked waiting for spire, but you can see making lings doesn't actually mess up the build if you go for that Lair timing I can do it on a 4 player map and drone scout if you like, but there's no point, I have a ton of minerals with this build because I started mining from the expansion 15 seconds earlier than a 12 hatch | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States924 Posts
On April 01 2024 17:43 iopq wrote: Let me stop you right there, this build was with no micromanagement of my drones by design. It's for beginners who don't know how to boost When I 11 hatch in real life, especially on top side or right side minerals I can hit 1:31 hatchery how many lings you make is not dependent on whether you go 12 hatch or 11 hatch, that's a strategic choice up to you the point is going 12 hatch is always going to give up 5 seconds of larva production and 5 seconds of mining the best expansion patches so it's not ideal unless you're going 3 hatch before Lair, since you can't make that deficit up until you get a third hatchery 11 hatch 10/11 pool 10 gas is ideal for a 2:48 Lair, it's the build Queen does, so I'm not alone in saying 11 hatch is better in this case (you lose like 16 minerals in exchange for a 5 second faster drones from the second hatchery) ==== the next best timing is the next larva Lair which is a 2:14 gas where you can do an even earlier second hatchery Here is 9 overlord -> hatch where I got a 1:21 hatchery with a 1 second larva block (it's possible to get the drone at 1:26 if you boost accurately) I have enough for a pool at 1:56, but I could just pool at 10 and have it at 1:51 (this is the tightest timing since the larva spawns at 1:56) but in reality it's cutting it exactly to the second so you can relax the build to 11 pool I still get the Lair at 3:02 and get a new larva at 4:04 and Lair larva at 4:06 so I could actually still cut another second and Lair at 3:01 https://repmastered.app/game/60ZpP2A1iPgS3BRJnsyhB98TsZ6huyFCdzXZfDzTTkM I should just make another overlord on the third hatchery since I got larva blocked waiting for spire, but you can see making lings doesn't actually mess up the build if you go for that Lair timing I can do it on a 4 player map and drone scout if you like, but there's no point, I have a ton of minerals with this build because I started mining from the expansion 15 seconds earlier than a 12 hatch So in summary, this is all our fun little scientific experiments and none of our builds is viable (10hat/9hat) in the current meta of korean scene. | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
If you're trying to get an early hatch and then a very quick pool like in ZvZ you can go 9 hatch, but 8 hatch offers very similar timings you can put the hatch down at 1:12 with 9 hatch if you're good at boosting and positioning the drone then you can get a 1:40 9 pool (a few seconds faster if you're even better at it than me) but for about 5 seconds at 1:13 you will have just used your money on a hatchery and will be blocked at 1:32 you will be blocked again because you're saving for a pool, and won't get the money until 1:45 even you're pretty good at getting your pool down in time with the evo chamber trick, still you might get blocked from 2:28 to 2:30 waiting for the pool to finish so you lose 20-22 seconds of larva time which puts you basically even to 11 hatch larva, but at a money cost - but your pool is much earlier mine with 9 drones at 0:53-1:04 8 drones 1:04-2:20 ==== 8 hatch 1:08 you get 300 minerals and put the hatch down (modulo if you can get the drone to move the correct way to get it down quickly) 0:57-1:12 block 1:42 200 minerals to put the pool down at 9 1:43-1:49 block 2:32-2:33 block waiting for 3 larvae at 1:04 we take the drone off and make a hatchery, so we mined with 8 drones from 0:47 to 1:04 7 drones until 1:04-1:27 8 drones 1:27-2:26 so it's basically a difference of about 32 minerals (4 trips) but your block time is 22-24 seconds so you do get more larva faster so if you're going to zergling all-in you can 8 hatch and get those lings out from your second hatchery faster (since you start building when you get both of the larva to make sure 9 pool doesn't pick them off a pair at a time) https://repmastered.app/game/VRFuhKZDmsOwN_R0WnjbrCSRFVPWnxho11QY98uLUsg you get those 10 lings at your expo at the same time which is nice ==== in case you wondered about 7 hatch, just no | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
but it delays your larva by 4 seconds because while you wait less for the pool to come up (you mined more minerals) you waited longer to start the expansion hatchery ==== But what if we wanted to focus more on larva? gas trick 10/9 hatchery gas trick 10/9 pool overlord drone to 10 6 lings at hatch we get a SLIGHTLY faster pool where we get: 1:19 300 minerals for hatch 1:45 200 minerals for pool our larva still gets blocked, but now we're putting the pool down before the overlord so it's going to be faster minus the cost of doing the two gas tricks (13 minerals + 1 mining trip means the true cost is closer to 21 minerals) | ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
1:12 get 300 minerals for 9 hatch 1:12-1:18 block gas trick 10 pool 1:45 pool 1:46-1:55 block overlord gas drone 1 drone at overlord 10/18 6 lings at main hatchery which is 15 seconds block (1 larva) so you get more larvae than 11 hatch AND faster pool https://repmastered.app/game/fl0gioU1yOAcNC6YOwBrQ26KgYwfsZUgVjUubc8RO4o | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5680 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States1130 Posts
On April 17 2024 23:13 Peeano wrote: Is there ever a scenario where it's worth mining to 500 and build both simultaneously? It would be really cool if all your data could be shown in a chart, including timings, larva amount, min/gas, etc. Why wait to build the hatchery? You're losing larvae on the expansion The whole point is to get the hatchery down as fast as possible, the closest is the 10 hatch 9 pool build I posted, you sacrifice the larvae to get the pool out ASAP, even faster than 9 hatch 9 pool because you got some extra mining in, but loses 6 seconds on the hatch timing A chart is a good idea, I guess I could start from 4 pool and work my way up to the other builds | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands5680 Posts
On April 17 2024 23:32 iopq wrote: Why wait to build the hatchery? You're losing larvae on the expansion The whole point is to get the hatchery down as fast as possible, the closest is the 10 hatch 9 pool build I posted, you sacrifice the larvae to get the pool out ASAP, even faster than 9 hatch 9 pool because you got some extra mining in, but loses 6 seconds on the hatch timing A chart is a good idea, I guess I could start from 4 pool and work my way up to the other builds Waiting till 500 means later hatch, but faster pool timing. How I see it is: pool before hatch, but the pool gets a bit delayed to get a faster hatch. Another way to view it: a delayed 12 hatch that can pump lings earlier to deal with a possible rush. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had explored it. Years ago when I thought about maining Z, I remember toying around with openings. That's why I find this thread very interesting despite not playing BW anymore ^^ | ||
| ||
