I am trying to figure out the highest econ build for zerg (no zerglings/sunken).. regardless of viability. So a few questions:
Is 12 hatch really higher econ? I imagine that if you focus on drones first you could get better econ.
Also isn't 10 hatch (extractor trick) safer then 9 hatch (if not taking expo) in that you should be able to get your pool up faster. Canceling drone only costs like 12 minerals and the fact that you will have 10 mining before hatch is up should get you a faster pool, right?
Basically, I'm hoping to apply this to 2v2 (or 3v3 hunters hehe), with the option of getting faster sunken or mass lings.
To make it more visible. Here is some research I did:
10 hatch (extractor trick twice, before hatch and after pool, before overlord) Pool comes up at 2:36 at 2:50 mark 246 minerals and 15 drones.
12 hatch Pool comes up at 2:51 at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.
9 hatch: Pool comes up at 2:37. at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals.
10hatch vs 9 hatch. Same time pool but slightly more minerals.
10 hatch vs 12 hatch. You are behind over 100 minerals, but your larvae count will soon overcome 12 hatch's. Also you have a decently faster pool which can make a big difference in such a late-pool build.
Summary, seems like 10 hatch should almost always be better then 9 hatch. 12 hatch is of course the better build in high level 1v1, but for low level play 10 hatch imo is unconventional and still strong. I think its probably much more useful in 2v2, 3v3 for its flexibility.
It's times like this I wonder why people don't test the stuff themselves rather than asking. You know what you want to test, why don't you test it and then pass the information on here? It's like a 15 minute process to determine which one gives you the best economy.
Yes, twelve hatch gives you the best econ since it is an ideal balanced between larvae and workers. The point of 9 hatch is sunkens, which relies on the hatchery finishing, which makes the pool timing inconsequential.
Thanks chill and I just tested it myself (before you suggested I test it). Here are my results.
10 hatch: Pool comes up at 2:34 at 2:50 mark 272 minerals and 14 drones.
12 hatch Pool comes up at 2:51 at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.
9 hatch: Pool comes up at 2:37. at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals.
10hatch vs 9 hatch. Soooo, in 10 hatch your larvae count is slightly off vs 9 hatch since you have 3 larvae for longer (9 hatch has 3 larvae for a short while too). However, overall you get almost a 100 more minerals and barely faster pool timing.
10 hatch vs 12 hatch. You are behind over 100 minerals, but your larvae count will soon overcome 12 hatch's. Also you have a decently faster pool which can make a big difference in such a late-pool build.
Summary, seems like 10 hatch should almost always be better then 9 hatch. 12 hatch is of course the better build in high level 1v1, but for low level play 10 hatch imo is unconventional and still strong. I think its probably much more useful in 2v2, 3v3 for its flexibility.
At one point I tested (after overlord!) 10hat vs 11hat vs 12hat, all followed by 11pool and 11gas. I did a few trials and took best times.
What I found was start times were
10hat / 11hat / 12hat
Hatchery timing: 1:35 / 1:39 / 1:45 Pool: 2:06 / 2:03 / 2:02 Gas (rough): 2:17 / 2:12 / 2:14 (not quite confident in the gas numbers since I didn't record them enough)
11hat in particular looks pretty nice because you get the hatchery up significantly faster than 12hat and you have enough drones to get pretty much the same pool timing. After building the gas, I found 12hat had about a 16 mineral advantage on 11hat, which isn't much. I had been thinking about posting a thread asking why people prefer 12hat over 11hat but I never got around to it.
Edit:
I also experimented with a extractor trick -> 10hat -> 11pool build. I don't trust my numbers as much on this because I think it's just from a single trial (and might be on a different map than the earlier numbers), but for what it's worth, I found:
So the 10hat hurts the pool timing unless you build the pool on earlier supply, and the reduced mineral count hurts your 3rd hat timing a little. On the other hand, the 2nd hat is up very fast.
On November 28 2009 06:16 ultramagnetics wrote: Thanks chill and I just tested it myself (before you suggested I test it). Here are my results.
10 hatch: Pool comes up at 2:34 at 2:50 mark 272 minerals and 14 drones.
12 hatch Pool comes up at 2:51 at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running. ... 10 hatch vs 12 hatch. You are behind over 100 minerals, but your larvae count will soon overcome 12 hatch's. Also you have a decently faster pool which can make a big difference in such a late-pool build.
I don't think the drone advantage is going to disappear because you're obviously going to be making lings. Otherwise, what is the point in getting a 15 second faster pool? Also, 12 hatch has more drones running for a longer period of time, which explains the 120 mineral advantage it gets over 10 hatch--120 minerals is 15 drone cycles, WAY too much for the 10 hatch to catch up on.
It involves doing the extractor trick TWICE. The first time is before you place the hatchery. The second is after you place the pool (which brings you to 8/9, then drone for 9/9, extractor trick for 10/9, then overlord). The overlord will pop and you'll have 3 larvae by the time the pool finishes.
So I'm not sure why you say 9 hatch has more drones than 10 hatch at a certain minute marker.
I do not focus on economy on 2v2. I get map control with fast speedlings (9 pool speed or overpool speed, sometimes 11 pool speed when i am on python or some map like that with closer opossing z and scout overpool)
I let my p partner focus on economy and tech and i give him support, then with his superior economy and tech I safe expand.
On November 28 2009 10:18 coltrane wrote: Just for the record...
I do not focus on economy on 2v2. I get map control with fast speedlings (9 pool speed or overpool speed, sometimes 11 pool speed when i am on python or some map like that with closer opossing z and scout overpool)
I let my p partner focus on economy and tech and i give him support, then with his superior economy and tech I safe expand.
btw i am c/c+ 2v2 player.-
What build would you choose on a map like God's Garden or any with a significantly long rush distance? (I guess katrina is the only one I can think of right now)
I used to do 10hatch on bluestorm, it was pretty good for the reason that you get to decide to use the larva for drones and play econ or have a really strong zergling rush~
Okay, this is what I found while experimenting with 9 hatch:
Drones to 9 9 hatch 8 drone 9 overlord 9 pool Drone to 11 11 Extractor* @100% Extractor - 3 drones on it*, @100% Pool - 8 Lings (one additional larvae will appear at the second hatchery in a matter of seconds, can be used for Lings or a Drone). **
* - If you want to. Against Protoss, going for an earlier 3rd hatch may be more beneficial than earlier gas. But it still leaves you with enough minerals to pump lings constantly out of the 2 hatcheries against any kind of rush, as well as the ability to get a quick lair or ling speed or hydra den.
** - If you don't think anything is coming, you can make drones instead of lings. But saving the larvae is definitely useful, especially if they are already scouting you, you can trick them into thinking you are making zerglings.
The timing for this is roughly as follows:
Against a non-proxy 2 gate, your 8 lings will pop right when the first zealot and few probes arrive. Against a proxy, you are a little late, but not by that much.
Against a non-proxy 8 rax into bunker rush, your 8 lings will pop just as the second marine gets to your base. The bunker finishes in time to get the marine in it, but only 2 marines against 10 lings, it's an easy win. Against a proxy, it's a little tougher. But far from impossible. A sunken can be placed to ensure that you can kill the bunker, since the hatchery finishes earlier than a 12 hatch.
So, as it stands, it seems to be a really solid counter to any early rush strategies, and it does not require a lot of micro. It can transition into any type of 2 hatch all-in, and a 3rd hatch can be placed pretty quickly if you start pumping drones instead of lings, meaning any timings for 3 hatch build orders will not be affected much either.
All-in-all, against P or T, I like this opening. I used to open 9 pool all the time, because I didn't like losing to early rushes. Then I transitioned into overpool. Now, I'm going to start using this more often. It's not as solid as 12 hatch, in economic terms, but I definitely will take a slight hit to my economy, as long as I am safe from early rushes.
It worked well against Z when my opponent went for anything other than a very early pool. This worked out decent against a 9 pool, however, it is very difficult to fight off those lings initially. It also was hurt against a 12 hatch, however, a single sunken, plus a few lings guarding your natural, lets you pump a few drones to catch up, and your gas comes before theirs, so you can get the tech out slightly quicker. It's for these reasons that I do not suggest opening like this against Z. 9 hatch in-base may be doable against an early pool though.
I'm going to keep experimenting with this, whenever I get the chance to play.
TL;DR - 9 hatch is very effective at fighting off early rushes of T or P, without damaging your economy much.
agree with most of what you said. I like 9/10 hatch since I am off-race with zerg and its fun to play. I feel strong playing with this 1 build that is pretty versatile. You should try doing 10-hatch though. it gives you an advantage over 9hatch in basically every aspect. Faster everything and more minerals. Do refinery trick before hatch and that's a 10 hatch
It really depends on what you want to do. If you are aiming for map control, a quick break/kill, then 10 h is best. The 2nd hat pops much faster than the 12hat build and sometimes those quick 2 or 4 lings are all the difference.
However, if you're aiming for an eco build, obv 12 h is the way to go.
There are multiple 10hatch builds. (Reminder for those who missed it.)
10hatch 10overlord 10pool
and
10overlord 10hatch whatever pool
are the highest econ variants, afaik. They're not rush builds, but the hope is that the extra larva and earlier creep from the earlier second hatchery can be put to good use and will make you safer than 12hatch against an early rush.
The safest version is 10hatch, 9pool, 9overlord, extractor trick for 10th drone. You have money to spare, unlike the gas versions of the build, and your pool is up slightly after a 12pool. The most aggressive version is 10hatch followed by a normal 9pool - delay some zerglings for faster speed, and you have a ridiculous speedling timing attack.
Hmm... I'm curious about something. Would 10overlord 10pool make sense as an opening?
in my testings 12 hatch's hatch compared to 10 hatch's hatch comes 20 seconds ealier and pool comes 19-20 seconds ealier. When you reach 27 supply with 12 hatch 3 seconds faster than with 10 hatch. Personaly, I always open 10 hatch in ZvP because it's very safe build which gives you similar economy to 12 hatch. Also, any 2 gate action is countered ridiculously easy, which I had with a lot problems with. Anyway, it's only me, I always use non-standart builds so I feel comfortable with it, others may not :}. P.s. I've recently wrote the 10 hatch variation im using, if anyone is intrested: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/10_hatch
some progamer used 10 overlord on outsider a few days ago. The reason for doing so is that if P scouts you first he can block a 12 hatch, but if you hide your drone and make hatch at 10 then it will be down before P can get his probe back to your nat after scouting your main (if he pylon scouted), and your econ is pretty much the same. This also allows you to get your sunkens started a little faster vs a 2 gate, but at the cost of your pool being a few seconds later. The faster sunkens should allow you to start 2 sunkens just moments before the first zealot reaches your nat to try and block it on outsider (don't know about other maps), but then if P goes 1 gate tech his zealot will be in your mineral line for a few extra seconds before your zerglings pop. Kind of hit or miss and doesn't really make much of a difference...
I did some tests myself some time ago and i find out that 9 hatch in the long run has the potential to be most "eco" opening from all even than 12 hatch and it focuses on maximum larva count that u can get but only if u plan to go 2 hatches as opening (as 2 hatch muta/lurker zvt wich i pretty much recommend if plan to do so) .It sacrifices some minerals(abit of larva stagnating with some drones coming later than usual) but 2nd hatch comes much much earlier that summed with first hatch gives an extra larva advantage that can be converted into 1 drone advantage compared to 12 hatch.The loss of minerals is about 100-150 from my calculation compared to 12 hatch.By gaining an extra larva from 2nd hatch u can recover this inital loss in arround 2 minute and after that is only profit. This build i call it "maximum larva build" from 2 hatches because isnt other that gives such an amount of larva with 2 hatch opening.And its like this: -9th drone u make second hatch on natural -after that u make 1 drone 1 overlord and 1 drone with extractor trick in that order -at 11th population u make pool(i need to mention that pool is 5-7 second later than as normal 12 hatch) This build as i said is good only if u plan going 2 hatch opening and imo it does this job better than 12 hatch.But this comes with a price u are abit more vulnerable to chesse opening (bunker rush 9/9 gate proxy gates) since lings comes some seconds later compared to 12 hatch but if u hang on till lings comes out and u save the larva u will have a burst of 10-12 lings and u can overwhelm the chesse.
9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
10 hatch hasnt more larva.Only 9 hatch has it,because larva stagnate is only 8 seconds(with 3 larvas hoovering arround blocking larva timer) but u put 2nd hatch at 2:17 wich means ~25 seconds seconds earlier than 12 hatch.So 25 seconds gained minus 8 seconds as larva block gives you 17 seconds bonus in larva production and 13 seconds is the rate in wich larva comes.And i would not recommend this opening in zvz because it dies to 9 pool and 12 pool but vs 12 hatch i think is viable since u can have a better drone count and not so much behind in tech,u dont need to go all in with lings vs 12 hatch. Simply puted 12 hatch opening is better when u go straight 3 hatch before gas(zvp for example or when going 3 hatch muta zvt).But 9 hatch has the potential to outproduce 12 hatch not just in supply count but also in economy after 4 minute mark(till than is in deficit in eco),and thats why i think this build is viable zvt and zvp only when going 2 hatch before gas opening.
On January 04 2014 16:41 CrazyLurker wrote: I did some tests myself some time ago and i find out that 9 hatch in the long run has the potential to be most "eco" opening from all even than 12 hatch and it focuses on maximum larva count that u can get but only if u plan to go 2 hatches as opening (as 2 hatch muta/lurker zvt wich i pretty much recommend if plan to do so) .Its sacrifice some minerals(abit of larva stagnating with some drones coming later than usual) but 2nd hatch comes much much earlier that summed with first hatch gives an extra larva advantage that can be converted into 1 drone advantage compared to 12 hatch.The loss of minerals is about 100-150 from my calculation compared to 12 hatch.By gaining an extra larva from 2nd hatch u can recover this inital loss in arround 2 minute and after that is only profit. This build i call it "maximum larva build" from 2 hatches because isnt other that gives such an amount of larva with 2 hatch opening.And its like this: -9th drone u make second hatch on natural -after that u make 1 drone 1 overlord and 1 drone with extractor trick in that order -at 11th population u make pool(i need to mention that pool is 5-7 second later than as normal 12 hatch) This build as i said is good only if u plan going 2 hatch opening and imo it does this job better than 12 hatch.But this comes with a price u are abit more vulnerable to chesse opening (bunker rush 9/9 gate proxy gates) since lings comes some seconds later compared to 12 hatch but if u hang on till lings comes out and u save the larva u will have a burst of 10-12 lings and u can overwhelm the chesse.
cool stuff. so you are saying i cannot go 3 hatch muta with this build? yeah 5 seconds later pool would be difficult on fish. hard enough to stop cheese with 12 hatch. ill try 2 hatch with this!
Have you tried going 8-hatch? I find that this build allows your natural hatchery to pop almost 20 seconds sooner, giving you no down-time for your larva if you do it right.
You go:
8/9 hatchery 7/9 get 2 drones 9/9 overlord gas trick for 10/9 population
You get something like 10 seconds earlier Zerglings, so if a Terran builds a bunker at your natural, you can just kick their shit in. I don't really see any flaws in this style of play except that it doesn't allow you to do FUCKING ANYTHING.
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either 1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or 2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.
On January 05 2014 01:03 ninazerg wrote: Have you tried going 8-hatch? I find that this build allows your natural hatchery to pop almost 20 seconds sooner, giving you no down-time for your larva if you do it right.
You go:
8/9 hatchery 7/9 get 2 drones 9/9 overlord gas trick for 10/9 population
You get something like 10 seconds earlier Zerglings, so if a Terran builds a bunker at your natural, you can just kick their shit in. I don't really see any flaws in this style of play except that it doesn't allow you to do FUCKING ANYTHING.
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either 1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or 2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.
If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up.
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either 1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or 2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.
If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up.
Assuming they also made sunkens I mean. Though I'm no expert!
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
Not super relevant in terms of builds, but 9 hatch vs 12 hatch isn't so bad. You have a pretty nice 20 second or so window where he won't have speedlings and on a lot of maps, you can pressure the nat hard enough that he has to stall his tech/econ to match yours. If he does an inbase 12 hatch, then you can nonstop pump lings and get a lair and either 1. He cuts lings to get faster tech in which case you can all in when his spire is 50% or 2. He slows down tech for nonstop lings in which case you can follow his spire 15-20 seconds late and slowly draw out your gas advantage.
If someone goes 12 hatch, they don't ever need to cut lings to tech up.
Assuming they also made sunkens I mean. Though I'm no expert!
Nah, they can also get sunken and be fine. I know it sounds like I'm saying 12 hatch has no weaknesses, but it's just strong against 9 hatch as an opening build, but against like 9pool, it's almost impossible to defend.
On January 04 2014 17:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: 9/10 hatch has more larva than a 12 hatch, but not the money to spend it all consistently. Just try a 9/10 hatch ling bust against a 12 hatch player in a zvz. Presuming the other player has sufficient information, he'll have more than enough lings to defend+tech, and you wont. I've done it myself plenty of times. I'd only use a 9/10 hatch opener as a prelude to an all in or as a hard[ish] counter to a 2 gate, provided I somehow mystically knew the other player would two gate me.
10 hatch hasnt more larva.Only 9 hatch has it,because larva stagnate is only 8 seconds(with 3 larvas hoovering arround blocking larva timer) but u put 2nd hatch at 2:17 wich means ~25 seconds seconds earlier than 12 hatch.So 25 seconds gained minus 8 seconds as larva block gives you 17 seconds bonus in larva production and 13 seconds is the rate in wich larva comes.And i would not recommend this opening in zvz because it dies to 9 pool and 12 pool but vs 12 hatch i think is viable since u can have a better drone count and not so much behind in tech,u dont need to go all in with lings vs 12 hatch. Simply puted 12 hatch opening is better when u go straight 3 hatch before gas(zvp for example or when going 3 hatch muta zvt).But 9 hatch has the potential to outproduce 12 hatch not just in supply count but also in economy after 4 minute mark(till than is in deficit in eco),and thats why i think this build is viable zvt and zvp only when going 2 hatch before gas opening.
Assuming the 9 pool player went straight to your natural with all of his lings right away, which is by no means a given on most maps, and quite a few two player maps have slightly longer rush distances even in that event, your lings off a 9 hatch will pop just as he reaches your natural. Which means you deflect his attack easily and can overrun him pretty hard afterwards, thats why its a useful cheese in zvz. 10 hatch is only slightly more difficult, by a couple of seconds, its not countered by a 9 pool.
12 pool has a worse larva count than a 9 hatch temporarily, which can, again, be used to ling bust fairly successfully. 12 hatch can outproduce you on every front with zero difficulty.
well i do a 9hatch 9pool 9ovy then 9gas vs terran lair starts at 3:08. and come out with my 3rd hatch getting done with spire and mutas coming out at 6 mins with extra gas and money for either +1attack or carapace for flying units http://speedy.sh/CWJcj/Genosuicide-vs-punisher-248.rep for replay. you make up your economy from the speedy expo and extra larva. Or vs Protoss since they FE so much ive won tons of games by going 9hatch speedling just a lil switch up by getting gas be4 ovy then speed at 100 and take drones off gas then 2hatchs pumping zerglings almost always gg unless they do a zergling proof wall which i only ran into after playing some1 the same way like 7 times. heres a replay of this build http://speedy.sh/a4ekG/thejinn-vs-cokacola.rep even in zvz with 9hatch a 9pool really isnt effective because ur zerglings will get out right when his get to ur base but because your going 2base vs 1base you may need a spore in each base as in this replay - http://www.speedyshare.com/ArMzh/thejinn-vs-flyingjelly.rep funny when ppl say the tech on a 12 hatch is faster because it isnt, as you can clearly see from the replays. a 9hatch is very versatile and a very safe build from rushes and you dont have to worry about that pesky probe stopping your expo.
My standard build is something like the following: - 10 hatch - 10 pool - 10 overlord - gas if I want to tech - 8 lings or 4 drones depending on scouting information - sunken(s) if I need to defend - hatch if I want to eco
It is a rather flexible build order in my opinion. Ever since doing this I don't (usually) have any problems with 2gate or bunker rush. ZvZ is a different topic tho...
9 hatch extractor trick 10/9 overlord 10/9 pool drone 10/17 gas
let's compare with Soma's 12 hatch, 12 pool, 12 gas build - I executed both myself without mineral boosting to be fair
12 hatch got hatch down at 1:44 and scout a second later pool at 2:06 gas at 2:18 lair at 3:07 at 15 supply and a larva pops at that time so 148 minerals 16 supply at that time (I could make a drone now) with no other larva
9 hatch at 1:13 my larvae get blocked at 1:14 I get my hatch down (30 seconds earlier) at 1:22 I get another drone (9 seconds of larva block) at 2:01 I put my pool down (earlier!) at 2:05 I scout (20 seconds later) gas at 2:13 (earlier!) lair at 3:02 (earlier!) at 3:06 I have 65 minerals and 3 larvae so if we make a drone that's 15 minerals, 2 larvae, 16 supply
but let's compare against 12 hatch 12 pool 11 gas with a later scout to equalize a bit
I got a slightly faster hatch at 1:41 because drone didn't bug out pathing LUL at 2:04 pool then scout gas at 2:10 lair at 3:02 at 3:06 I have 16 supply, 148 minerals
so these builds are comparable - at a cost of 133 minerals you get a larva you can't afford a third hatchery until 4:15
at 4:18 I had at 4:22 I had 126 minerals (about to make gas) two larvae, spire/zergling speed on the way, 2 zerglings, 23 supply
let's do the same thing continuing a 9 hatch build trying it out again
this time the drone pathing was weird so I only had hatch down at 1:17 at 2:01 pool down and scout messed up gas timing so it's 2:14 at 3:04 lair at 3:07 I do have 23 minerals so I got one more trip compared to the previous attempt
at 4:16 I had 189 minerals, 24 supply, 2 larvae so I'm having the same number of larvae now until an extra one spawns at 4:21 (bad luck? I should have one more larvae since I didn't get larva blocked after I did the 9 hatch, maybe because the drone danced too long) at 4:23 I put down the third hatchery, have 3 larvae, 25 minerals, spire/zergling speed on the way, 2 zerglings, 23 supply
in the end, it's a tiny difference, between my attempts a few seconds here and there actually change the outcome - but when executed correctly should give you smaller and smaller difference - by the time you get the third hatchery up the drone that was mining all this time will have made you back the minerals
if I do the build better maybe I will see the one drone mining back the minerals in two minutes and getting the third hatch down in around the same time - then there will actually be a drone advantage until you stop making drones which will turn into an army advantage, but I will probably have to do it later because doing it all the way until 4:15 or whatever is very boring
10 hatch (extractor trick twice, before hatch and after pool, before overlord) Pool comes up at 2:36 at 2:50 mark 246 minerals and 15 drones BUT NO OVERLORD YET
12 hatch Pool comes up at 2:51 at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.
9 hatch: Pool comes up at 2:37. at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals.
Chill why dont u, fakesteve, fakeklazart, hotbid etc etc host another brood war tl attack like back in the days :D It was the best thing ever, miss it so much
I found the 10 hat (with only 1 extractor trick) to be a good bo for 3v3 hunters. But it depends. It is better than a 12 hat, that on a normal 3v3 is too slow, and it can be better than a 12 pool, because of more larva, that allows you bought to sunk more or to do more lings fast. it is different from a 9 pool speed, witch looks for a different strategy.
in 2v2 i have found it to be much less usefull, as in manu matchupps you look for fast mutas, witch are better off 1 hat than 2 hat.
I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread
If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula:
hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build
we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now
8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery
you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do
9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery
10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either
The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order
On December 06 2023 01:37 iopq wrote: I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread
If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula:
hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build
we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now
8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery
you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do
9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery
10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either
The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order
When do you make overlord with 9 hatch and 8 hatch after extractor trick? What if you do dobble extractor trick with nat extractor or when you have 2 gases in main ... What about triple extractor trick on such maps? What about fastest maps, how many extractor tricks would be economical before cancealing and than make overlord? Or on normal maps what number of extractor tricks drones is more economical than just making a overlord...?
On December 06 2023 01:37 iopq wrote: I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread
If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula:
hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build
we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now
8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery
you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do
9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery
10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either
The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order
When do you make overlord with 9 hatch and 8 hatch after extractor trick? What if you do dobble extractor trick with nat extractor or when you have 2 gases in main ... What about triple extractor trick on such maps? What about fastest maps, how many extractor tricks would be economical before cancealing and than make overlord? Or on normal maps what number of extractor tricks drones is more economical than just making a overlord...?
I'm not measuring economical, the 8 hatch gets larva blocked while you're waiting for 300 minerals for hatchery and 50 minerals for drone. I extractor trick at 9 so that I don't get blocked again.
In 9 hatch you have to extractor trick after overlord so you don't get blocked again.
In both cases the extractor trick is preventing you from hitting 3 larva only, and 9 hatch is the most larva you can get being on two hatcheries. On fastest map it's an earlier hatchery that might make sense, but I tested the left side mineral spawn (the slower one that doesn't have mineral boosting) on standard maps.
So if you're okay with a pool going down at like 12 hatch 13 pool timing (vs. Terran) you can make it after overlord-gas trick-2 drones (at 12 make pool) and gas immediately. That's going to be the 2.5 hatch muta build. Your third hatch will be delayed like 5 seconds as well, but that's not going to offset a whole 15 seconds faster second hatch.
If you go 9 hatch - overlord - gas trick - 10 pool you'll still be able to spend your larvae and that's the fastest you can throw a pool down with the 9 hatch build without sacrificing a larva. But if you want a faster pool, you will need to pick a build that gets you to your desired timing.
If you want the fastest larva on three hatcheries, that's also going to be a different optimization (depending on how fast you need the pool)
extractor trick 10 hatch overlord extractor trick 10 pool (like a 2 minute pool timing)
1:24 hatch with only a 3 second block waiting for the overlord so it's actually quite good if you don't throw the pool down immediately (since that blocks you)
but it's just the same pool timing as the 10 pool with 9 hatch without any clear benefit (any extra money you mined was spent on the extra gas trick so it's basically a wash)
On December 06 2023 22:59 Jealous wrote: One option I haven't seen you describe yet that was used by at least one progamer several years ago is:
Extractor trick 10 overlord 10 hatch
Not sure what the timings are on that in terms of larvae block, just figured you might want to test the option.
9 overlord is already slower than 10 hatch, not sure how 10 overlord could be faster
Because you burn one larva on the extractor trick AND the overlord, maybe? Seems like it uses an additional larva over straight up 10 hatch. Admittedly I don't have a good grasp of the larva timings for these builds but I find 10 over hatch to be really smooth to play, at least
On December 06 2023 22:59 Jealous wrote: One option I haven't seen you describe yet that was used by at least one progamer several years ago is:
Extractor trick 10 overlord 10 hatch
Not sure what the timings are on that in terms of larvae block, just figured you might want to test the option.
9 overlord is already slower than 10 hatch, not sure how 10 overlord could be faster
Because you burn one larva on the extractor trick AND the overlord, maybe? Seems like it uses an additional larva over straight up 10 hatch. Admittedly I don't have a good grasp of the larva timings for these builds but I find 10 over hatch to be really smooth to play, at least
It's very simple, the hatch timing is everything. The 10 over hatch has no larva block, but you put down the hatch 63 minerals later than over 9 hatch. Off the top of my head, like 7 seconds later to decrease the block from 4 seconds to 0.
But more interesting is to get a build that does the fastest larva from an earlier pool. 9 hatch can get it at like right before 2 minutes, but we probably want it a few seconds earlier vs. Protoss or Zerg, for example.
edit: it's a 1:31 hatchery with no block, but the hatch is later than just going overlord hatch so what's the point? That's not going to be strictly more larvae than a 9 hatch
On December 06 2023 01:37 iopq wrote: I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread
If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula:
hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build
we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now
8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery
you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do
9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery
10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either
The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order
why 9 ovi before gas trick if u want an extra drone? if u 9h > 9p > gas trick > ovi u have the drone out earlier and still have the ovi out with 3 larva by the time ur pool's done
On December 06 2023 01:37 iopq wrote: I have to bump this, it's not turning out the most quick question in the other thread
If we're looking at the most larvae on TWO hatcheries, then we can actually figure out the correct formula:
hatchery timing plus larva block, since the most larva will EVENTUALLY outmine the less larva (unless you put down a third hatchery) - a drone mines like 60 minerals a minute so once you no longer float larvae it will be the best build
we'll extractor trick when we need to avoid getting larva blocked only and ignore things like pool timings for now
8 hatch - 1:12 hatchery timing, 19 second larva block it's just like a 1:31 hatchery 9 hatch - 1:15 hatchery timing, 7 second larva block so it's just like a 1:22 hatchery 9 overlord 9 hatch - 1:27 hatchery timing, 4 second larva block so it's just like a 1:31 hatchery
you can see 8 hatch is a meme because you give up econ, but don't get the most larva, might as well 9 overlord 9 hatch since it's superior in every way and easier to do
9 extractor trick, 10 hatch then get blocked for 4 seconds extractor trick, overlord get larva blocked for 3 seconds anyway for a 1:24 hatchery with 7 seconds block equivalent to 1:31 hatchery
10 hatch is complicated to do, but it's not the most larva either
The most larva on two hatcheries is simply 9 hatch, 9 overlord, gas trick in that order
why 9 ovi before gas trick if u want an extra drone? if u 9h > 9p > gas trick > ovi u have the drone out earlier and still have the ovi out with 3 larva by the time ur pool's done
we're trying not to float larvae
by the time you 9 pool you are already floating at like 1:36, that's a completely different build with the aim of a ~1:45 pool which is one larva later than a 12 pool (1:30 timing)
with an additional block you can throw it down on 10 at that 2:00 timing, or you can delay the pool to 2:06 and throw it down at 11 to prevent a 3 second larva block - at that point it's just trade-offs
1:23 hatch then a 22 second block so equivalent 1:45 hatch timing (bad) 1:42 pool (good)
9 hatch 9 pool
1:16 hatch 7 second block then because of pool another 12 second block 1:42 pool (good) 4 second block because pool is not quite ready yet so that's a 1:39 equivalent hatchery timing (good) 8 lings at the same time (great)
vs. Zerg you can just put down the gas permanently after pool and before the overlord 2:01 gas 2:34 overlord and pool pop at the same time 2:51 lair or speed
What if i want maximal eco with maximal larva usage, like putting 1 hatchery or 2 and the pool and maybe a gas at the same time, so drones are mining longer ... Is it more econmical to just instantly put the hatcheries in the long run because of additional larva or does non stop drone production with not losing drones for the buildings benefit more economically, regardless if we just put them in the main or not?
And in that case would 9 overlord or 12 overlord with extractor trick 1 /2nd extractor trick at nat /3rd extractor trick at 3rd base, be more efficient economical since you get rid of larva instantly and dont need to care since you will build the pool and hatches latter at like 500/550 or 850minerals, if also include the gas?
On December 11 2023 05:41 Leonix wrote: What if i want maximal eco with maximal larva usage, like putting 1 hatchery or 2 and the pool and maybe a gas at the same time, so drones are mining longer ... Is it more econmical to just instantly put the hatcheries in the long run because of additional larva or does non stop drone production with not losing drones for the buildings benefit more economically, regardless if we just put them in the main or not?
And in that case would 9 overlord or 12 overlord with extractor trick 1 /2nd extractor trick at nat /3rd extractor trick at 3rd base, be more efficient economical since you get rid of larva instantly and dont need to care since you will build the pool and hatches latter at like 500/550 or 850minerals, if also include the gas?
I have similar questions. If you want maximal economy, you can just summarize each drone harvests nearly 12.39 minerals in between each larva using data from "Ideal mining thoughts" thread. The extractor trick uses ~13 minerals, so you essentially lose 1 drone's mining time on top of the busy drone doing the extractor trick. The overlord hatches in 25 seconds, before two periods of larvae. I checked on the best extractor timing. If you make an extractor in 25 seconds and pool in 50 seconds, you should be able to harvest 50 gas in 10 seconds with 3 drones and start a Hydralisk Den by the pool spawning time, if you make the extractor 15 seconds after the pool. That is roughly 1/4th to 1/3rd of the pool build time, also just over a larva cycle of 12.6 seconds. I also checked nonstop droning. The payoff meets a rapid decline after each drone mines a patch of minerals according to the other thread. I asked how soon would that take effect. Even by the 15 drone mark, there is an 18% advantage to mining from an expansion rather than pooling 15 drones in a single base. I think it is remarkable harvesting ~885 minerals versus ~750 minerals each minute. In summary, I think the best expansion time is at near the 9 drone mark. You make the hatchery and concentrate the hatching larva on overlord, pool, extractor, hydralisk den without succumbing to the mineral patch limit. At a moment, we already used 7 larvae which is 2 more than the time it takes for the hatchery to spring up.
On December 11 2023 05:41 Leonix wrote: What if i want maximal eco with maximal larva usage, like putting 1 hatchery or 2 and the pool and maybe a gas at the same time, so drones are mining longer ... Is it more econmical to just instantly put the hatcheries in the long run because of additional larva or does non stop drone production with not losing drones for the buildings benefit more economically, regardless if we just put them in the main or not?
And in that case would 9 overlord or 12 overlord with extractor trick 1 /2nd extractor trick at nat /3rd extractor trick at 3rd base, be more efficient economical since you get rid of larva instantly and dont need to care since you will build the pool and hatches latter at like 500/550 or 850minerals, if also include the gas?
If you delay hatchery, you get the first larva from it later
If you make it too early, you block your initial hatchery from making anything because you're waiting for money.
The common wisdom was to avoid 3 larvae at all costs, but actually I've found it's still better to throw down a 15 second earlier hatchery if you get larva blocked for less than 15 seconds.
You get slightly less minerals, but the extra larva will eventually equalize when you spent all of the larvae so you will be getting the final ~60 extra minerals a minute for a longer time since you don't need to bank as many larvae before muta
it's not bad, have 6 mutas coming out at 5:27, waiting for the next gas to get a 7th muta or start +1, have 26 drones and a bunch of money (assume terran didn't move out with m&m)
but 9 hatch is better when we're not forced to make sunkens
it's roughly the same everything, zergling speed a bit slower, but we just have two more drones and 100 minerals less at the same timing - we were at a mineral disadvantage most of the replay, but by the time mutas come out we're roughly even and have two more larvae for free that we made into drones
how?
hatchery down at 1:15, larva block 1:13-1:19 (same as getting second hatchery down at 1:21 without a block) third hatchery down at 3:36
vs.
hatchery down at 1:36, no larva block third hatchery down at 3:32
we have 15 seconds of larva production earlier, then it shrinks by 4 seconds, but we always have that one larva advantage
I guess I should have droned to 28 in the standard build because I got larva blocked by the end, but people don't do this to fit one more muta before overlord, which we don't necessarily need to do with the 9 hatch build because we make units until 29 supply before muta
The simplest way to do a build similar to a progamer would just to 9 ov 10 hatch
it's 7 seconds of larva production for like 16-24 minerals loss which is something you will get back when your faster hatchery is up and your faster first expansion drone is mining the best mineral
EDIT: click up at the natural to get a faster Lair, the larva will spawn at 3:58 or 3:59 depending on the hatch timing which means you can get a faster Lair at say 2:56 or 2:57 and still get an extra larva when it pops
so the build would be:
9 ov 10 hatch 12 pool 11 gas + scout 15 lings + Lair at natural to spawn the larva at the correct timing since we're like 5 seconds ahead of 12/12 17 overlord 18 hatch 21 spire 20 gas zergling speed
there's really no reason to extractor trick, it gains you like 3 minerals in the best case and you can mess it up and lose minerals, it might be better on 10 mineral maps where you can just put it on a free mineral, but basically a wash
I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though
Yes. These builds are nice, the only question in my mind is if they are mainstream, or greedy builds. PS: apart from that this is a pretty good build. The Lair larva block lasted just 8 seconds(5:17-5:25).
Realistically you often build a sunken anyway at like 5 minutes when you see the Terran move out or fake move out then remake the drone and use the gas on +1 anyway
11 hatch is mainstream, 10 hatch with a faster lair is more aggressive
Looks like both versions can be tweaked just a bit more to get 700/700 when spire pops for all 7 available larvae? Perhaps it requires decent mineral boosting to get it done, but maybe that is beside the point?
Your point is mutas can be out earlier without loss of larvae, right? Of course this will result in a later 3rd (4th) as a result. How valuable is that? You get to force turrets earlier and get 2 more folleys in before marine stim n range hits, you essentially slow Terran in trade of a slower 3rd. So can assume the net total is the similar? One build is more aggro, while the other is a bit more macro game orientated.
On December 22 2023 11:21 Peeano wrote: Looks like both versions can be tweaked just a bit more to get 700/700 when spire pops for all 7 available larvae? Perhaps it requires decent mineral boosting to get it done, but maybe that is beside the point?
Your point is mutas can be out earlier without loss of larvae, right? Of course this will result in a later 3rd (4th) as a result. How valuable is that? You get to force turrets earlier and get 2 more folleys in before marine stim n range hits, you essentially slow Terran in trade of a slower 3rd. So can assume the net total is the similar? One build is more aggro, while the other is a bit more macro game orientated.
My point is you don't want to have 700/700 because it means you could have gotten your spire earlier and not be waiting with a larva block.
I'm piecing together the ZvP puzzle. Apparently, rushes are essentially decoys to trigger photon cannons in order for the Protoss to fall behind on the build tree. Mutas are the trigger for photon cannons in the main while hydralisks are the trigger for photon cannons in the natural; however the Protoss does not have to take Zerg pressure. Protoss can still make units during all this time. Any decent Protoss will not Forge FE, but Gate first, then FE. The mechanics are on the Protoss side. There is zero incentive for the Protoss to tech up. Even so, High Templars and psi storms are researched 1.5 seconds later than Lurkers, 2.5 seconds later than Mutalisks. Any decent Protoss will choose pressure instead of a Zerg contain.
On December 22 2023 11:21 Peeano wrote: Looks like both versions can be tweaked just a bit more to get 700/700 when spire pops for all 7 available larvae? Perhaps it requires decent mineral boosting to get it done, but maybe that is beside the point?
Your point is mutas can be out earlier without loss of larvae, right? Of course this will result in a later 3rd (4th) as a result. How valuable is that? You get to force turrets earlier and get 2 more folleys in before marine stim n range hits, you essentially slow Terran in trade of a slower 3rd. So can assume the net total is the similar? One build is more aggro, while the other is a bit more macro game orientated.
I forgot to mention: later third doesn't mean less economy because your total drone count matters too. You can get an even faster third by going 11/10/10 and lair at 2:48 (Soulkey plays this). You get a third base as your third hatchery, but your economy is worse because you have less production overall, fewer drones.
But I will admit that 11/10/10 is an optimal build for a 2:48 Lair because you'll get larva blocked if you try to cut it any closer. So I'm filling in the gaps:
11/10/10 is optimal for a 2:48 Lair (either hatchery since they are synced) 10/12/11 is optimal for a 2:57 Lair if you use your expansion hatchery any/12/12 is optimal for a 3:02 Lair if you use your main hatchery
but then you can also optimize the 3 hatchery before Lair build by throwing down the gas before the third hatchery as well
I have been thinking... At 9/9, you can spend 500 minerals for +8 drones and mine precisely 50% more minerals per minute on top of the 9 drones in the main, or spend 850 and mine 89% more. I think there is a precise drone cutoff point when mining from the second base becomes more economic and minute decisions might bring a lead.
When boosting, I can get 300 minerals at 1:21 doing overhatch (so I can put it down at 1:22 if I don't misclick like in this replay) So the next drone is at 1:26 before the larva spawns, so overhatch is the best build to get early larva from two hatcheries without sacrificing too many minerals
I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though
It's kinda disrepectful to be dismissing pro's build. Lot of foreigners don't know how much thought process they put into their builds in all situations, considering that it's literally their livelihood and a slight advantage can earn them a lot of money. There's a reason why they're doing 12 hat or 11 hat in some cases. In your 11 hat, your hatchery goes up at 1:36 while pro's goes up at 1:34 (This is pretty easy to do). You're making only 2 lings which eliminates your opportunity to backstab with your 6 lings when MnM pushes out which hinders their eco slightly and more importantly, you're setting yourself up possibly dying to a straight up 4:50 MnM push out because 2 sunks will die to a 2 medic MnM army. If you make 3 sunks vs 4:50 push out your behind a lot. If you make 6 lings and drone scout your eco will be tanked and not even comparable to what 12 hat will produce. They 12 hat because they can still make 7 mutas DESPITE them making 6 speed lings and drone scouting. You're saying "Look I can make 7 mutas with 1 extra drone" That's because you never scouted with drone and made 6 lings. If you never scout with drone you will have hard time defending vs 8 rax.
It is also extremely risky that you're making 2 drones and makin your pool at like 2:03 pool. You're getting destroyed by 8 rax because your pool will be too late and if you do send all your drones (10) your eco will be destroyed. There's a reason why pros go 11 hat and then straight into 10 pool (1:51 pool) and only send 4 drones to prevent bunker from being made. They can defend if T bunker doesn't go up by 2:55 if they go 11 hat 10 pool (1:51 pool). If they made drone there's literally no reason why they even went 11 hat. Pros go 11 hat ONLY to make sure 8 rax is defended.
I won't even mention 10 hat because that build will straight up get countered by 8rax.
I'm not even mentioning the most recent meta where terran delays their cc to 2:52 and send 4 rines across the map. In response you make 6 lings early on and your eco will be destroyed with 10 hat/11hat. Good terran will see you only have 2 lings and constantly pressure you.
Do 12 hat with only 2 lings and see how much minerals/gas you have compared to 11 hat/10hat at 5:20. Go on.
I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though
It's kinda disrepectful to be dismissing pro's build. Lot of foreigners don't know how much thought process they put into their builds in all situations, considering that it's literally their livelihood and a slight advantage can earn them a lot of money. There's a reason why they're doing 12 hat or 11 hat in some cases. In your 11 hat, your hatchery goes up at 1:36 while pro's goes up at 1:34 (This is pretty easy to do).
Let me stop you right there, this build was with no micromanagement of my drones by design. It's for beginners who don't know how to boost
When I 11 hatch in real life, especially on top side or right side minerals I can hit 1:31 hatchery
how many lings you make is not dependent on whether you go 12 hatch or 11 hatch, that's a strategic choice up to you
the point is going 12 hatch is always going to give up 5 seconds of larva production and 5 seconds of mining the best expansion patches so it's not ideal unless you're going 3 hatch before Lair, since you can't make that deficit up until you get a third hatchery
11 hatch 10/11 pool 10 gas is ideal for a 2:48 Lair, it's the build Queen does, so I'm not alone in saying 11 hatch is better in this case (you lose like 16 minerals in exchange for a 5 second faster drones from the second hatchery)
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the next best timing is the next larva Lair which is a 2:14 gas where you can do an even earlier second hatchery
Here is 9 overlord -> hatch where I got a 1:21 hatchery with a 1 second larva block (it's possible to get the drone at 1:26 if you boost accurately)
I have enough for a pool at 1:56, but I could just pool at 10 and have it at 1:51 (this is the tightest timing since the larva spawns at 1:56) but in reality it's cutting it exactly to the second so you can relax the build to 11 pool
I still get the Lair at 3:02 and get a new larva at 4:04 and Lair larva at 4:06 so I could actually still cut another second and Lair at 3:01
I should just make another overlord on the third hatchery since I got larva blocked waiting for spire, but you can see making lings doesn't actually mess up the build if you go for that Lair timing
I can do it on a 4 player map and drone scout if you like, but there's no point, I have a ton of minerals with this build because I started mining from the expansion 15 seconds earlier than a 12 hatch
I made a comparison of the two builds I did. Not sure if this kind of content is interesting to anyone, though
It's kinda disrepectful to be dismissing pro's build. Lot of foreigners don't know how much thought process they put into their builds in all situations, considering that it's literally their livelihood and a slight advantage can earn them a lot of money. There's a reason why they're doing 12 hat or 11 hat in some cases. In your 11 hat, your hatchery goes up at 1:36 while pro's goes up at 1:34 (This is pretty easy to do).
Let me stop you right there, this build was with no micromanagement of my drones by design. It's for beginners who don't know how to boost
When I 11 hatch in real life, especially on top side or right side minerals I can hit 1:31 hatchery
how many lings you make is not dependent on whether you go 12 hatch or 11 hatch, that's a strategic choice up to you
the point is going 12 hatch is always going to give up 5 seconds of larva production and 5 seconds of mining the best expansion patches so it's not ideal unless you're going 3 hatch before Lair, since you can't make that deficit up until you get a third hatchery
11 hatch 10/11 pool 10 gas is ideal for a 2:48 Lair, it's the build Queen does, so I'm not alone in saying 11 hatch is better in this case (you lose like 16 minerals in exchange for a 5 second faster drones from the second hatchery)
====
the next best timing is the next larva Lair which is a 2:14 gas where you can do an even earlier second hatchery
Here is 9 overlord -> hatch where I got a 1:21 hatchery with a 1 second larva block (it's possible to get the drone at 1:26 if you boost accurately)
I have enough for a pool at 1:56, but I could just pool at 10 and have it at 1:51 (this is the tightest timing since the larva spawns at 1:56) but in reality it's cutting it exactly to the second so you can relax the build to 11 pool
I still get the Lair at 3:02 and get a new larva at 4:04 and Lair larva at 4:06 so I could actually still cut another second and Lair at 3:01
I should just make another overlord on the third hatchery since I got larva blocked waiting for spire, but you can see making lings doesn't actually mess up the build if you go for that Lair timing
I can do it on a 4 player map and drone scout if you like, but there's no point, I have a ton of minerals with this build because I started mining from the expansion 15 seconds earlier than a 12 hatch
So in summary, this is all our fun little scientific experiments and none of our builds is viable (10hat/9hat) in the current meta of korean scene.
If you watch the replay, the 9 overhatch build is better if you're clicking up at 3:02 because you get 1 more larva without sacrificing anything (you get the minerals back when you mine the expansion earlier)
I did a little bit more research and found a situation where 8 hatch is actually viable:
If you're trying to get an early hatch and then a very quick pool like in ZvZ you can go 9 hatch, but 8 hatch offers very similar timings
you can put the hatch down at 1:12 with 9 hatch if you're good at boosting and positioning the drone then you can get a 1:40 9 pool (a few seconds faster if you're even better at it than me)
but for about 5 seconds at 1:13 you will have just used your money on a hatchery and will be blocked at 1:32 you will be blocked again because you're saving for a pool, and won't get the money until 1:45
even you're pretty good at getting your pool down in time with the evo chamber trick, still you might get blocked from 2:28 to 2:30 waiting for the pool to finish
so you lose 20-22 seconds of larva time which puts you basically even to 11 hatch larva, but at a money cost - but your pool is much earlier
mine with 9 drones at 0:53-1:04 8 drones 1:04-2:20
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8 hatch
1:08 you get 300 minerals and put the hatch down (modulo if you can get the drone to move the correct way to get it down quickly) 0:57-1:12 block 1:42 200 minerals to put the pool down at 9 1:43-1:49 block 2:32-2:33 block waiting for 3 larvae
at 1:04 we take the drone off and make a hatchery, so we mined with 8 drones from 0:47 to 1:04 7 drones until 1:04-1:27 8 drones 1:27-2:26
so it's basically a difference of about 32 minerals (4 trips) but your block time is 22-24 seconds so you do get more larva faster so if you're going to zergling all-in you can 8 hatch and get those lings out from your second hatchery faster (since you start building when you get both of the larva to make sure 9 pool doesn't pick them off a pair at a time)
The fastest hatchery first then pool is actually gastrick-10 hatch-9 pool
but it delays your larva by 4 seconds because while you wait less for the pool to come up (you mined more minerals) you waited longer to start the expansion hatchery
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But what if we wanted to focus more on larva?
gas trick 10/9 hatchery gas trick 10/9 pool overlord drone to 10 6 lings at hatch
we get a SLIGHTLY faster pool where we get: 1:19 300 minerals for hatch 1:45 200 minerals for pool
our larva still gets blocked, but now we're putting the pool down before the overlord so it's going to be faster minus the cost of doing the two gas tricks (13 minerals + 1 mining trip means the true cost is closer to 21 minerals)
1:12 get 300 minerals for 9 hatch 1:12-1:18 block gas trick 10 pool 1:45 pool 1:46-1:55 block overlord gas drone 1 drone at overlord 10/18 6 lings at main hatchery
which is 15 seconds block (1 larva) so you get more larvae than 11 hatch AND faster pool
Is there ever a scenario where it's worth mining to 500 and build both simultaneously? It would be really cool if all your data could be shown in a chart, including timings, larva amount, min/gas, etc.
On April 17 2024 23:13 Peeano wrote: Is there ever a scenario where it's worth mining to 500 and build both simultaneously? It would be really cool if all your data could be shown in a chart, including timings, larva amount, min/gas, etc.
Why wait to build the hatchery? You're losing larvae on the expansion
The whole point is to get the hatchery down as fast as possible, the closest is the 10 hatch 9 pool build I posted, you sacrifice the larvae to get the pool out ASAP, even faster than 9 hatch 9 pool because you got some extra mining in, but loses 6 seconds on the hatch timing
A chart is a good idea, I guess I could start from 4 pool and work my way up to the other builds
On April 17 2024 23:13 Peeano wrote: Is there ever a scenario where it's worth mining to 500 and build both simultaneously? It would be really cool if all your data could be shown in a chart, including timings, larva amount, min/gas, etc.
Why wait to build the hatchery? You're losing larvae on the expansion
The whole point is to get the hatchery down as fast as possible, the closest is the 10 hatch 9 pool build I posted, you sacrifice the larvae to get the pool out ASAP, even faster than 9 hatch 9 pool because you got some extra mining in, but loses 6 seconds on the hatch timing
A chart is a good idea, I guess I could start from 4 pool and work my way up to the other builds
Waiting till 500 means later hatch, but faster pool timing. How I see it is: pool before hatch, but the pool gets a bit delayed to get a faster hatch. Another way to view it: a delayed 12 hatch that can pump lings earlier to deal with a possible rush. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had explored it.
Years ago when I thought about maining Z, I remember toying around with openings. That's why I find this thread very interesting despite not playing BW anymore ^^
On April 17 2024 23:13 Peeano wrote: Is there ever a scenario where it's worth mining to 500 and build both simultaneously? It would be really cool if all your data could be shown in a chart, including timings, larva amount, min/gas, etc.
Why wait to build the hatchery? You're losing larvae on the expansion
The whole point is to get the hatchery down as fast as possible, the closest is the 10 hatch 9 pool build I posted, you sacrifice the larvae to get the pool out ASAP, even faster than 9 hatch 9 pool because you got some extra mining in, but loses 6 seconds on the hatch timing
A chart is a good idea, I guess I could start from 4 pool and work my way up to the other builds
Waiting till 500 means later hatch, but faster pool timing. How I see it is: pool before hatch, but the pool gets a bit delayed to get a faster hatch. Another way to view it: a delayed 12 hatch that can pump lings earlier to deal with a possible rush. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had explored it.
Years ago when I thought about maining Z, I remember toying around with openings. That's why I find this thread very interesting despite not playing BW anymore ^^
that one drone you're mining with is only mining ONE MINERAL PER SECOND since it's on the 9th best patch in your base
by delaying the hatch by 200 minerals, you're making it 20 seconds later to gain 2 seconds on the pool, so you lose a pair of lings just to get the other lings 2 seconds faster
10 hatch 9 pool delays the hatch by 7 seconds to give you a 2 seconds faster pool and even that I don't think is a good deal
12 hatch has enough minerals to make a hatch at 1:36, third hatch at 13 at 2:11 or so, pool at 12 at 2:27, gas at 2:32 and you won't be larva blocked at any point
11 hatch has enough minerals at 1:31. third hatch at 2:12, pool at 2:27, gas at 2:32 with only split second difference due to the mining of the extra drone
there's no reason to go 12 hatch ever, unless you messed up your build
delaying your hatchery by 5 seconds means you permanently get behind in drones compared to an 11 hatch with almost no difference to your other timings otherwise
but 10 hatch 9 pool has a faster pool/gas at the cost to the hatch timing of like 6-7 seconds with a similar block, I'll have to try it out since the 9h10p is a really close hold vs. 9p and a straight up loss vs. 5 pool
EPT
