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On November 11 2017 19:56 TT1 wrote:
I wanted to keep playing BW (especially because of the Zotac tourneys) but i had to stop just because of how shitty my experience was. Bnet/the ladder has a isolated SC2 feel to it, the NA servers are split up and there's no centralized chat channels.
No 2v2 ladder also takes away a big part of the social aspect of BW. The friend list is terrible, you can't add EU players (if you're an NA player, vice versa) unless you change your bnet region via the launcher. Even when you do that you can only see your friends on w/e region you're logged into.. which only adds to the isolated gaming experience.
The ladder is either fine or extremely laggy, it's hit or miss depending on the hours you play on. I'm not willing to spend my time playing in laggy games 30-40% of the time tho.
On top of all that the new fixes/patches are being released way slower now. People have been telling the devs about the chat bug for months now and they still haven't fixed it. How do they expect to fix all the issues BW has when it's taking them this long to fix a simple chat bug?
Ugh... yeah that chat bug is so annoying.
I can't understand why they fragmented the friend's list and chat channel by region. Channels and friends list should be global, as should custom games. In the game lobby it should give you a ping preview so you can see if they game will likely be playable or not.
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there's honestly not much that can be done. blizzard needs to either fix the client, or someone needs to step up and release another private server. you can also still just play on iccup which has a substantial population.
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First of all I want to say very much agree with points made by the op. Faust is right on almost all points he made. Perhaps you got a little heated in his arguments and did not always hit the right Tone, but his analysis is spot on.
I have bought Starcraft remastered only a week ago and I'm already being fed up by all the Bugs.
To me it does realistically not matter if visit intentionally screwed up this game or if it's just a matter of lacking resources and production and Maintenance. As far as maintenance goes, I did not remember it beforehand that does it would be interested in maintaining the server on a high standard.
Now that he raised the question of what we can do to improve the Starcraft remastered experience. The answer is relatively simple. Ac community has no control over Starcraft remastered service and software and we can't expect Blizzard to fix things in a timely fashion the only alternative is to take care of our problems on our own like we did in the past. that of course means using third party servers and software helping encoding the necessary tools, and being active in the administration of a third party service. I would like to mention year that unlike stated above IC Cup is not a server of the past but still running. Yes it's full of Koreans and the coding is a mess, but at least it's working. Other options may be available while Shield battery open Bw. Problem with that is that you to be high amount of players on the official servers these projects are going very slow or are not being pushed forward. In order for that to change it would be mandatory for players to switch over to the third party service in a leap of good faith beforehand and work with devs together to make the necessary improvements.
I will restrict my pointer on a Iccup as I can only talk about it with certainty as a former admin. In general I see Iccup is open to the idea of improving the Starcraft Server, but will not put paid programmers to work on it and is not open to the idea of changing the base code of the server architecture. The servers are working fine for Dota, where the main focus is.
Tl;dr: if we want to improve the Starcraft remastered experience we will have to do it on our own using third party service and software. There's a couple of possible Solutions, ICC seems logical as an already established server, but there's a lot of technical difficulties.
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On November 11 2017 20:33 Endymion wrote:
there's honestly not much that can be done. blizzard needs to either fix the client, or someone needs to step up and release another private server. you can also still just play on iccup which has a substantial population.
One of the primary reasons why I made this topic is to show support to 3rd party developers and sort of have a community consensus that this is what we want (to move in the direction of embracing non-Blizzard services). It might be a long shot, but deep down I want the Shieldbattery devs to continue working on their server. With the closure of Fish and Brain, I'm sure the chances of a 3rd party server arising is slim to none, but it is something I really hope for nonetheless.
Also, I really have nothing to offer in regards to programming skills, so I feel extremely out of my element to really talk about anything pertaining to developing 3rd party launchers-- but I would be super interested to hear the input of people like tec27, mca64, masterofchaos, and iCCup/wLauncher devs who worked on adding in lan latency to their launchers/programs if there is anything feasible or possible that can be done from their position regarding improving latency for the average player.
One more point to bring up that I think is super important though is that we're already actively doing what I have presented in this topic. One of the biggest improvisations the StarCraft community has made is now almost every tournament organizer has set up a discord because of the chat bugs that plague Battle.net channels. We're actively doing things to improve StarCraft due to the shortcomings. Also, I sort of want to steer this topic conversation more in the direction of improving rather than being upset with the product we got. I think the vast majority of us are on the same page, and it is mostly out of our control - so we should try to find out what things ARE in our control.
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Netherlands5132 Posts
I feel the only thing we can do as foreigners is to all move back to ICCup or all help ShieldBattery become the next experience... (The only real issue I had with ShieldBattery is that you you can't seem to get the same mouse feel what you're used to in 1.16.1)
Also exile all Latin American players. They should get their own private server, it legit would solve 80% of all lag bullshit instantly.
If you don't live in Korea you'll never get to experience the right training conditions. You're also continuously finding yourself dealing with lag and an insane amount of beta bugs that don't get addressed.
I gotta say Castle's post - due to how frustrating it is to play on battle.net - really did ring in my mind.
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for me, shieldbattery has never felt right. something just feels off in game, but i love the out of game concept/architecture. i'm optimistic that eventually another 1.16.1 server will pop up similar to fish. isn't it impossible to emulate the new patch server architecture though?? i thought that the new client was meant to be way more "secure," so we can expect to never have a private remastered server
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Blizzard is trash. They half assed the release of SCR and somehow manage to make the game worse. anywho,blizzard is the only entity that can improve starcraft, not the community.
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I feel like the obvious and simple solution is for someone to develop an RTS that's better than BW.
I mean, how has nobody thought of this yet?
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Can someone give me a valid explanation about why Blizz dont fix for exemple "chat bug" ? I have no background in programming but isnt it the easier kind of thing to fix ? In every other program with a chat included I never had any problem whisping, managing friends, sending commands etc... Why SCR have this problem? Shouldnt it be EXTREMELY easy and fast to fix ? Please explain to me.
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On November 11 2017 22:00 AManHasNoName wrote:
I feel like the obvious and simple solution is for someone to develop an RTS that's better than BW.
I mean, how has nobody thought of this yet?
the problem is that bw is an extremely good game, probably the best game ever made... furthermore, there aren't a lot of modern gamers that enjoy hardcore RTS like broodwar, so there's not much money in it (be it a perception in the industry or actual truth, it doesn't make a difference to publishers).
so combine these 2 facts and we're kinda stuck with the game for the foreseeable future
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@golgotha why are you defending blizzard so much when it is clear there is ongoing problems that should have been solved. I've played overwatch and that online experience is very smooth and nearly flaw free so I know blizzard is very capable of making a smooth online experience, so what's the excuse here? Ive watched the developer updates and they seem to direct their attention to minor things thst arnt really an issue (dynamic lighting??) And almost ignore the screaming issues like matchmaking being broken. Also I don't believe you even play on the sc:r ladder very much to have such a positive outlook on where remastered is at. I know my posts in this thread didn't really contribute to trying make scr better because I believe now it's in blizzards hands, they have 99% of the player base on their servers and unless there's a huge community shift to a private server with a solid ladder then we r forced to deal with what we have
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On November 12 2017 00:10 castleeMg wrote:
@golgotha why are you defending blizzard so much when it is clear there is ongoing problems that should have been solved. I've played overwatch and that online experience is very smooth and nearly flaw free so I know blizzard is very capable of making a smooth online experience, so what's the excuse here? Ive watched the developer updates and they seem to direct their attention to minor things thst arnt really an issue (dynamic lighting??) And almost ignore the screaming issues like matchmaking being broken. Also I don't believe you even play on the sc:r ladder very much to have such a positive outlook on where remastered is at. I know my posts in this thread didn't really contribute to trying make scr better because I believe now it's in blizzards hands, they had 99% of the player base on their servers and unless there's a huge community shift to a private server with a solid ladder then we r forced to deal with what we have
TBH I think a big part of the problem is that all of the intelligent discussion from competitive players happens on TL. While all the super casual UMS players are the ones posting on the battle.net forums and getting the devs attention.
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I bet the guy who pitched remastered promised the project could be done with a low cost skeleton crew and a short dev time. Which is why this game was not delayed 6 months when it's obvious it needed it badly.
The rumor that the classic team has mostly switched to WC3:R doesn't surprise me. It's obvious blizzard has very little passion for this project and have completely lost what made them great in the late 90s.
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Norway28690 Posts
On November 11 2017 23:52 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2017 22:00 AManHasNoName wrote:
I feel like the obvious and simple solution is for someone to develop an RTS that's better than BW.
I mean, how has nobody thought of this yet? the problem is that bw is an extremely good game, probably the best game ever made... furthermore, there aren't a lot of modern gamers that enjoy hardcore RTS like broodwar, so there's not much money in it (be it a perception in the industry or actual truth, it doesn't make a difference to publishers). so combine these 2 facts and we're kinda stuck with the game for the foreseeable future
It's impossible to 'remake brood war' because a huge part of why it is so good is that you've seen almost two decades of strategic evolution take place. You can't 'design' the intricacies between forge fe and gateway expand into sair dt or speedzealot templar vs 3-6 hatch spire or hydra. You can't design 1 rax expand into +1 5 rax vs 3 hatch spire into lurker into 3 gas hive defiler into mech switch. These strategical and tactical evolutions took place a decade after the last balance patch. I'm pretty certain they never even intended for 'mech' to be how people approach the tvp matchup.
Personally I don't fully share in the negativity many of you seem to express. I'm enjoying brood war more than ever. The foreign tournament scene is in the best state it's ever been - there are more well organized tournaments running on a weekly basis than has ever been the case in the past. There's constant content. The ladder is flawed, indeed, but I can get a game against a player on my level after searching for 40 seconds. That has literally never before been the case, did not apply to WGtour, did not apply to PGTour, did not apply to ICCUP, did not apply to cloudladder, cloria, old bnet ladder, or any other previous incarnation. I understand that this experience is different for people who lag with koreans though - to me, it's pretty much always playable. I think it sucks that they don't let me race pick in accordance with what my opponent chose - but this is pretty much my only real grievance, and while quite some nonkorean players are race pickers, we're definitely a minority.
The lack of chat channels and social bnet experience and horrible friend list, that was a big issue, but then there's discord, which in pretty much every way far superior. Old bnet channels were limited to 40 people and they were totally exclusive. Only 8 people could be in a game together and nobody streamed - it frequently happened that someone, the least popular basically, ended up being sidelined.
I understand that specifically, players who love laddering, have a high enough mmr to only be matched against koreans, and who lag when playing vs koreans, think the current situation sucks. That group I'm deeply sympathetic towards, because for those, remastered might have just ruined the bw experience. However, I think this is a pretty small group of people, and I think they generally had to spend quite some time looking for games on any ladder that has been going for the past 6 years - they shouldn't really have been able to play fish, and iccup wasn't active for the A- + segment. For pretty much everybody else, the current bw experience should be as good as it has ever been and I can't help but feel that people are viewing the past a bit through rose tinted glasses.
This doesn't actually excuse the poor job blizzard has done and that they sold us a beta product as a so-called improvement of a totally fully evolved one. Also sucks that shieldbattery kinda got the wind knocked out of their sails, because that was an amazingly well done product.
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i'm not saying that publishers have to make a perfect game, but even pushing the genre forward takes an exorbitant amount of risk. what i'm talking about is making small changes to the formula, like UI changes or unit archetype additions, all of which have a big chance of just falling flat on their face.
if you look at FPS, in recent years a lot of them have started adding additional movement mechanics like in titanfall and cod AW. while they're similar to what people could do in quake, it's still innovation in that it hasn't been done in that way before.. for RTS, something similar would be MBS or unlimited unit select, or automating (or deautomating) the genre further). RTS takes so much time to develop though (on a meta game scale), and it takes so long to develop as a player in RTS, that people are just largely unwilling to take anything seriously that isn't bw.. personally, i don't want to put 20 years into a game that i don't find as good/fun as what i already have. that's not to say that i'm not willing to try new RTS, but they need to really captivate me if i'm going to take it seriously at all. look at recent games like act of aggression, grey goo, and warhammer 40k DoW3. they all innovated in some way, but they were all massive commercial failures for one reason or another.
even the game with the most potential, day9's rts atlas, ended up sinking and not being able to tread water next to broodwar. it requires the stars to align with a great development team, community feedback, community support, and money, even just to push the genre forward at all.
with regard to your comments about high level players being annoyed by korean lag on ladder: i think you'll only find that this problem will become more exasperated as the foreign base shrinks to what it was before SCR dropped in the first place and the koreans become a larger proportion even at the casual level.
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Poland523 Posts
On November 12 2017 01:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I understand that specifically, players who love laddering, have a high enough mmr to only be matched against koreans, and who lag when playing vs koreans, think the current situation sucks. That group I'm deeply sympathetic towards, because for those, remastered might have just ruined the bw experience. However, I think this is a pretty small group of people, and I think they generally had to spend quite some time looking for games on any ladder that has been going for the past 6 years - they shouldn't really have been able to play fish, and iccup wasn't active for the A- + segment. For pretty much everybody else, the current bw experience should be as good as it has ever been and I can't help but feel that people are viewing the past a bit through rose tinted glasses.
In Europe on 1900 or 2000 you already start getting Koreans constantly, unless you hit 2 hours window in the evening when there are more Europeans laddering. But it is some kind of bull**** that I am forced to play at specific time. 1900 mmr is not A- or A+ segment. It is D+ or C- segment and I didn't have problems playing or finding games on iccup considering I could host games. This ladder is ruining experience for me, and if you want community to actually grow, you have to fix these kind of issues. Otherwise all ladders except for Korean will be dead soon.
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Norway28690 Posts
On November 12 2017 02:24 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2017 01:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I understand that specifically, players who love laddering, have a high enough mmr to only be matched against koreans, and who lag when playing vs koreans, think the current situation sucks. That group I'm deeply sympathetic towards, because for those, remastered might have just ruined the bw experience. However, I think this is a pretty small group of people, and I think they generally had to spend quite some time looking for games on any ladder that has been going for the past 6 years - they shouldn't really have been able to play fish, and iccup wasn't active for the A- + segment. For pretty much everybody else, the current bw experience should be as good as it has ever been and I can't help but feel that people are viewing the past a bit through rose tinted glasses.
In Europe on 1900 or 2000 you already start getting Koreans constantly, unless you hit 2 hours window in the evening when there are more Europeans laddering. But it is some kind of bull**** that I am forced to play at specific time. 1900 mmr is not A- or A+ segment. It is D+ or C- segment and I didn't have problems playing or finding games on iccup considering I could host games. This ladder is ruining experience for me, and if you want community to actually grow, you have to fix these kind of issues. Otherwise all ladders except for Korean will be dead soon.
That's valid, didn't know people matched up with only koreans that early - when I laddered up my account I mostly had nonkorean opponents until I reached 2200-2300 or so.
I think specific complains about not having properly addressed ladder-lag are on point in general, and seeing as how that's one of the main selling points behind SC:R, this point of criticism is totally valid. But I also think there are aspects of the brood war experience that are better than it's ever been in the past, in particular related to playing tournaments and following the non-korean scene.
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its not rose tinted glasses to consider that the older builds had a much more efficient interface which always allowed me to play the game more smoothly and get games going better and communicating with others better. It's a vital difference that we can play on public servers again (or ones that nobody needs to search online to even find out about), but can you remember when we were playing on public servers before we needed better ladders AND had the better interface? of course the game ALSO was more popular because it was newer or a lot less old, but the current quality of it definitely makes a difference in how popular it is NOW since some of us who still love playing the game are put off by it enough to want to stay away from it which means the growth and health of the playerbase is stunted
so again I'm happy to have a auto matchmaking I wish it worked properly and better though (otherwise i prefer custom game ladder yeah.. if it can count games properly and not put ppl in stupid lag situation or make you wait 3000s for no reason and u cant ladder then), the damage to the game is real, and discord does not replace bnet chat because it is outside the game anyway just like IRC was only a good solution for gamers playing games that did not have a quality chat interface similar to bnet.. So yeah the chat issues are a big deal for sure man, I can tell, I got a lot less fun games done with bnet friends since SC:R released than I did during 1.17-1.18 cause the chat was still working then right
besides screw it I paid for the game to be improved not otherwise I just want it to work good and nice no screwing with game-registering stats errors discs no profile saving and the chat, ya I paid for it to work sry they said so they said the chat would work as far as I know lol
not acceptable, not acceptable
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Some of you get what you wished for.
If you're looking for something to complain about, you can find something wrong with any game.
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It's easy to gather up a list of all the problems with Starcraft: Remastered and blame Blizzard for everything that is wrong with the Starcraft community. Or... To word it more accurately what community? What community is Blizzard killing exactly?
When you look at the state of Starcraft today, there is a large Korean community (and pro scene), then there are about 10 International communities, each with a handful of members. If you want to fix the problems the Starcraft community faces, they're not primarily based on the technology. Yes, there are a bunch of problems with the technology, but all of these problems can be worked around if all of the other factors around it are fun and conducive to growth. There's a lack of collaboration in every facet of the International "community" today. Some examples:
1) For tournament organizers - Most organizers / organizations are completely opposed to working together, you see this in the mass of clan leagues that came out one after the other with very few of the organizations actually willing to join forces to work together. It spans to individual events as well, rather than working together to offer one refined product, everyone is content on generating their own, less complete, and less profitable (viewership wise) events.
Larger organizations are even more focused on pushing their brand than the individual tour organizers, so much that they prefer to have 5 invites in an 8 player event because they think these invites are more popular than people who would otherwise qualify. There's also the issue of organizations making decisions that are outright bad, not advertising properly, not getting the most out of their sponsorship $$.
2) Community websites and sub communities - Viewership on teamliquid for International starcraft has never been so low, events that would reliably fetch anywhere from 30-100K thread views now get 5000? The community just isn't here anymore, Netwars hosts their own community, Defiler.ru hosts their own community, ingame.de, French BW has their own discord. Interaction between all of these communities used to be centered on TL, that no longer seems to exist.
3) Casters - This is very much like my tournament organizer thing, but casters also are generally very interested in progressing their own brand. It's very difficult to get casters do do events on an organization's channel and usually, the only organizations that get this from the casters are the large ones (which probably won't stick around after they see the numbers coming out of their first events).
4) Players & community - All players want their participation in events to be effortless (which is fair). What is a lot harder for me to justify is the lack of interest in doing anything (no matter how small) in order to help events grow. It seems that people will only do something if it makes absolute sense to them.
- Players and teams stop showing up once they start losing in events
- There is 0 willingness for most people to upvote stuff on reddit (we need all the viewers we can bring in)
- Asking players to take 5 minutes to register on a sponsor's site is too much to ask
- There is a clan ladder that exists, a bunch of teams that were currently participating in Clan Leagues were invited, 2 joined
I understand that I'm mostly bringing up problems here and not solutions, but you can see that the problem Brood War faces is very much a people problem, not a technology problem. I think everyone who wants Brood War to live needs to start thinking why, not what. If there's no common goal, if people don't agree on what drives their passion (or that there is passion, not enough people will take initiative to drive success).
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EPT
