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Why are reavers stupid? - Page 4

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
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BlackMagister
Profile Joined October 2008
United States5834 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 06:48:45
February 15 2012 06:48 GMT
#61
Yes I also remember Boxer saying it was related to Reaver being able to fire instantly when being dropped by a shuttle NOT that the Reavers once had good AI and were nerfed by Blizzard. That would be a very odd way to nerf things especially since BW has other units with bad pathing that is just part of the game not an intended balance aspect.
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51441 Posts
February 15 2012 06:52 GMT
#62
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.
Commentator
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 06:54:03
February 15 2012 06:53 GMT
#63
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.

Edit: What he said.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Sinedd
Profile Joined July 2008
Poland7052 Posts
February 15 2012 07:00 GMT
#64
because Blizzard made them so

besides, it to the excitement when your scarab actually hits something, and its ie 15 probes or something ;P
T H C makes ppl happy
CakeOrI)eath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States327 Posts
February 15 2012 07:10 GMT
#65
On February 15 2012 11:11 Release wrote:
The only pro who seems to have good reaver control is stork.


I only half agree with you. Many pros have good reaver micro (just watch a PvP), its just that just as many pros have good anti-reaver micro. They run workers away so quickly that by the time the reaver unloads and shoots, the scarab is almost guaranteed to dud.
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
vanatir
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany355 Posts
February 15 2012 07:23 GMT
#66
and sometimes reavers dont shoot even if they are in range -.-
very mystique unit ^^
aka EnjoYmE - streaming on http://www.twitch.tv/myprobe
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
February 15 2012 07:33 GMT
#67
Certainly makes for a ton of seat-grippingly intense moments where everyone is screaming their minds out and staring at the scarab
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
February 15 2012 07:35 GMT
#68
As far as AI goes, scarab is the best thing BW came up with IMO. It made me fall in love with it immediately.
En Taro Violet
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 07:50:31
February 15 2012 07:42 GMT
#69
It isn't stupid once you understand how the scarab AI actually works.

Primarily, scarabs have a portrait size of 5x5 pixels, and are subject to the same pathfinding constraints as any other unit -- if it can fit within 5 pixels, it can path through.

The pathfinding itself is a shortest path to the target's location + some distance ahead in the direction that it is moving. This means that if the unit moves back and forth rapidly, then the scarab will also change its path. This can be abused to great effect.

Additionally, unit movement avoids obstacles by moving closer as much as possible until it is in contact, then it wall-follows around as well as it can. For small units, there are many opportunities to fit through crevices, so the pathfinding takes those opportunities. But those narrow paths are also more likely to become obstructed as other units move around.

The scarab does not detonate until it gets within a small threshold of the target, which is why stacked workers are a problem. The detonation does damage at two levels (just like a nuclear missile), such that fleeing units can get away without the full hit.
A "dud" or timeout does zero damage.

If you want to get the most out of your scarab:
(1) When firing at stacked units, fire from a position that the units are moving toward or perpendicular to the reaver. Fleeing units take reduced damage, stacked fleeing units make it impossible to hit your target unless your target is at the rear of the stack.
(2) Fire across a direct open path, not when large buildings, minerals, or walls are in between. Mineral patches are scarab tight, and even non-tight walls can become tight if a single non-targeted unit fills the gap.
(3) Review the scarab-tight wall-ins and avoid firing from those angles, or variations. I found need in a game to fight off a reaver with a tank, and I used only my command center and the pathfinding exploit to nullify the scarabs and keep my tank alive until the rest of my tanks arrived. You can even do it on a lone refinery, but this is very difficult.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
February 15 2012 07:54 GMT
#70
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


But Julyzerg had counter for it until Blizzard fixed it later on.

TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
February 15 2012 07:56 GMT
#71
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


LOL PWND OLD SCHOOL MOTHER FUCKER

on a side note, its interesting to look at the "simpler" builds taking hold in modern BW, 10gate PvZ, 1,1,1, 3gate goon PVP, the more macro builds ... idk its like , it would be really hard micro 100 dragoons well because it would take insane APM. but if you are really good at " dancing " a hero unit like the reaver, you could hold 1 against 100. This has been happening since the first macro , iLoveOOv
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
February 15 2012 07:56 GMT
#72
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


Legionnaires reaver micro/macro multitask was sick good. He was never fancy, but his reaver never died ever.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
HaFnium
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United Kingdom1074 Posts
February 15 2012 08:44 GMT
#73
I think we are not giving the reaver's campnion, the shuttle enough credit.
A lot of what we called reaver micro is actually shuttle micro....
Gogo Shuttle + Reaver!!!
BW forever!
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
February 15 2012 08:44 GMT
#74
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


Jianfei??? >________<
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
February 15 2012 09:10 GMT
#75
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote:
I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber?


They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000.

Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times.

On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence.
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
February 15 2012 09:14 GMT
#76
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence.


This man Demands VODS!!!
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 09:35:32
February 15 2012 09:33 GMT
#77
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote:
I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber?


They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000.

Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times.

Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence.

Believe it as you may not but simply googling intotherainbow will give you highlights

and calling "Grrr..." a mere foreigner is an insult to his starleague victory http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/237_Grrrr...

And if this was not blizzards intention why do you think they did not revert this change?
In the woods, there lurks..
sAw
Profile Joined November 2008
965 Posts
February 15 2012 09:33 GMT
#78
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote:
I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber?


They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000.

Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times.

Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence.

Seriously, it's a true story. Legionnaire held a record with 57 kills on a single reaver, like, 10 years ago.
But I would still say Rainbow was better, his reavers were constantly amazing. Ah, those were the days. :'(
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
February 15 2012 09:35 GMT
#79
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote:
I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber?


They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000.

Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times.


I thought as much.

Yeah I think the greatest competitive games are often a solid, well designed game with some amount of ridiculous luck to make things balanced at the highest levels of play, something no game designer could ever foresee. It makes for the best games though. :D
BW4Life!
MisterKatosS
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
France352 Posts
February 15 2012 09:35 GMT
#80
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs.

fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today.

False,
Ai has always been terrible they just added a cooldown to shuttles for load/unload to nerf reaver drops
My web development company website : http://www.make-me-a-website.net My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrKatoss
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