EPTWhy are reavers stupid? - Page 4
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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GTR
51574 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote: I think snow has the best reaver micro 1. Legionnaire 2. IntoTheRainbow indisputable. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote: 2. IntoTheRainbow indisputable. Edit: What he said. | ||
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
 besides, it to the excitement when your scarab actually hits something, and its ie 15 probes or something ;P | ||
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CakeOrI)eath
United States327 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:11 Release wrote: The only pro who seems to have good reaver control is stork. I only half agree with you. Many pros have good reaver micro (just watch a PvP), its just that just as many pros have good anti-reaver micro. They run workers away so quickly that by the time the reaver unloads and shoots, the scarab is almost guaranteed to dud. | ||
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vanatir
Germany355 Posts
very mystique unit ^^ | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Primarily, scarabs have a portrait size of 5x5 pixels, and are subject to the same pathfinding constraints as any other unit -- if it can fit within 5 pixels, it can path through. The pathfinding itself is a shortest path to the target's location + some distance ahead in the direction that it is moving. This means that if the unit moves back and forth rapidly, then the scarab will also change its path. This can be abused to great effect. Additionally, unit movement avoids obstacles by moving closer as much as possible until it is in contact, then it wall-follows around as well as it can. For small units, there are many opportunities to fit through crevices, so the pathfinding takes those opportunities. But those narrow paths are also more likely to become obstructed as other units move around. The scarab does not detonate until it gets within a small threshold of the target, which is why stacked workers are a problem. The detonation does damage at two levels (just like a nuclear missile), such that fleeing units can get away without the full hit. A "dud" or timeout does zero damage. If you want to get the most out of your scarab: (1) When firing at stacked units, fire from a position that the units are moving toward or perpendicular to the reaver. Fleeing units take reduced damage, stacked fleeing units make it impossible to hit your target unless your target is at the rear of the stack. (2) Fire across a direct open path, not when large buildings, minerals, or walls are in between. Mineral patches are scarab tight, and even non-tight walls can become tight if a single non-targeted unit fills the gap. (3) Review the scarab-tight wall-ins and avoid firing from those angles, or variations. I found need in a game to fight off a reaver with a tank, and I used only my command center and the pathfinding exploit to nullify the scarabs and keep my tank alive until the rest of my tanks arrived. You can even do it on a lone refinery, but this is very difficult. | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
But Julyzerg had counter for it until Blizzard fixed it later on. | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
LOL PWND OLD SCHOOL MOTHER FUCKER on a side note, its interesting to look at the "simpler" builds taking hold in modern BW, 10gate PvZ, 1,1,1, 3gate goon PVP, the more macro builds ... idk its like , it would be really hard micro 100 dragoons well because it would take insane APM. but if you are really good at " dancing " a hero unit like the reaver, you could hold 1 against 100. This has been happening since the first macro , iLoveOOv | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Legionnaires reaver micro/macro multitask was sick good. He was never fancy, but his reaver never died ever. | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1076 Posts
A lot of what we called reaver micro is actually shuttle micro.... Gogo Shuttle + Reaver!!! | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
Jianfei??? >________< | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote: I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber? They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. This man Demands VODS!!! | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. Believe it as you may not but simply googling intotherainbow will give you highlights and calling "Grrr..." a mere foreigner is an insult to his starleague victory http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/237_Grrrr... And if this was not blizzards intention why do you think they did not revert this change? | ||
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sAw
965 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. Seriously, it's a true story. Legionnaire held a record with 57 kills on a single reaver, like, 10 years ago. But I would still say Rainbow was better, his reavers were constantly amazing. Ah, those were the days. :'( | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I thought as much. Yeah I think the greatest competitive games are often a solid, well designed game with some amount of ridiculous luck to make things balanced at the highest levels of play, something no game designer could ever foresee. It makes for the best games though. :D | ||
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MisterKatosS
France352 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote: They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs. fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. False, Ai has always been terrible they just added a cooldown to shuttles for load/unload to nerf reaver drops | ||
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