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[G] TvP Deterministically Dodge Scarabs

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 3 Next All
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 19:58:23
April 07 2010 07:05 GMT
#1
20 April 2010 Update : Added walls for Moonglaive and Tornado.

I will post example wallings on popular maps, feel free to post any clever wallings you come up with for particular maps and I will include them here (with acknowledgment ofc). Note that these are reduced scenarios: turret placement is left to the player and these do not necessarily take into account zealots, vultures, siege mode, or any other tech - just enough for one tank to hold its ground. In most cases, it is easier to keep your SCVs alive when a scarab is chasing them. In a few cases, your SCVs are virtually untouchable.

Maps:
+ Show Spoiler +

Destination 1.1:
+ Show Spoiler +

12 - I believe the armory and academy are interchangeable here. Note that this is a large enough wall that you can stack SCVs and dodge without maynarding to another base.
[image loading]

6 - Again, the wall is large enough that SCVs can dodge in place, but beware of splash.
[image loading]


Fighting Spirit 1.3:
+ Show Spoiler +

1 - This is similar to Hearbreak Ridge 3 o'clock. This is a very good wall against 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock, and an SCV (default CC rally point) can fill the gap between the CC and factory.
[image loading]

5 - This position takes our opponent's location into consideration. The upper wall is best if you expect the shuttle to approach from the north. The lower wall is best if your opponent approaches from the back.
[image loading]

7 - The armory does not interfere with gas mining. The factory rally distance is notably longer: you can also use an academy to the left of the armory, but the scarab is more likely to slip through the left this way so it takes more micro. A starport would be ideal.
[image loading]

11 - This is a tough angle to defend, but you can fight from either side. I wouldn't recommend placing an SCV in the CC factory gap unless you are below the wall, since you won' t have room to maneuver left if you're on top when the scarab takes the shorter path to the right. To put it simply, you want the reaver to be on the concave side of your wall.
[image loading]


Heartbreak Ridge 2.1:
+ Show Spoiler +

3 - Note that the default rally point on the command center blocks scarabs from passing between the factory and command center.
[image loading]

6 - The refinery-factory gap is zealot tight, but not scarab tight.
[image loading]


Moon Glaive 2.1:
+ Show Spoiler +

1 - This is so simple and provides tons of coverage. The factory does nothing here (unless you move it one matrix right and let an SCV fill the gap), I simply forgot to move it out of the image.
[image loading]

4 - Another good wall, same as HBR. SCV can fill the factory CC gap. Use a starport if you don't like your factory this far in the back of your base.
[image loading]

8 - You can do the factory and armory to the right of the refinery, but I just wanted to note that this is one of the few maps where the armory is tight against the refinery and minerals.
[image loading]


Python 1.3:
+ Show Spoiler +

3 - The armory below refinery is scarab tight.
[image loading]

6,9 - Haven't thought of anything good for these yet.
12 - I believe you could alternatively use the armory to seal the mineral gap and move the machine shop against the minerals.
[image loading]


Tornado 2.1:
+ Show Spoiler +

1 - This position doesn't have any worthwhile configurations for the 1-base reaver timing we hope to counter, but if for some reason you find yourself in this awesome spot, just know that an SCV blocking the turret/armory gap makes this tight enough that you can continue mining as usual - scarabs only make it around ~10%. A factory and SCV below the CC would make this even stronger.
[image loading]

5 - This position isn't as great as its HBR and Moonglaive analogs, simply because of the gap in the mineral patch. You can go for the same wall in, but I mixed it up here and walled on both sides of the mineral.
[image loading]

7 - Tornado really sucks for scarab walls. Unfortunately, the cliffs aren't scarab tight, so don't hope for much in this position.
[image loading]

11 - This is another "standard" wall with just a factory and armory, but I included the turret positioning to give you an idea of how powerful this configuration is. The shuttle cannot land the reaver without taking turret fire and an unsieged tank has ample space to maneuver . You can go even further with supply depots to make it harder for zealots to get around, but I hope you get the idea.
[image loading]




The inspiration:
+ Show Spoiler +


The situation:
+ Show Spoiler +
An unscouted 1-base reaver, especially when proxied, is a potent threat to any unprepared Terran. Fortunately, any build that gets an early armory and/or academy can use defensive simcity to create "safe-zones" against scarabs.
[image loading]

Believe it or not, the reaver cannot kill this tank.


The micro:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69GRB93IR_I
Boxer was revolutionizing TvP even as he embarrassed Zergs.


Many players are already aware that moving units away from a scarab will reduce the damage taken. This subtle feature is already an invaluable micro trick in tight skirmishes. This new technique (let's call it the "Terrantella" dance) is another powerful tool that players have available to them.

What you will need:
(1) Armory (complete or incomplete).
(2) Add-on (any will do, as long as it's attached).

The add-on+armory wall is scarab-tight, giving you enough lateral distance to get away with this. This is much harder for smaller distances, but the principle is enabled by the fact that the scarab must choose between two long-distance paths to reach its target; rapidly changing direction forces it to recalculate to the new shortest route frequently enough that it ends up going nowhere.

This becomes trivially simple to execute as the wall grows larger. Mineral patches make great natural walls. You can even use this technique to protect your workers if maynarding isn't convenient.

Here's a quick practice map to get the feel for it:
[url blocked]
I dodged an easy 30 scarabs before slipping up. How many can you get?

Terrans of the world, rejoice!
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GDefu_6eAE&
These gypsies dance because they do not fear scarabs.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
April 07 2010 16:21 GMT
#2
Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory?
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
WaveMotion
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States147 Posts
April 07 2010 17:02 GMT
#3
What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?
In heaven, everything is fine.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
April 07 2010 17:14 GMT
#4
On April 08 2010 01:21 Plexa wrote:
Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory?

I'd assume it has to be an armoury, or he would've stated otherwise.
Gustav_Wind
Profile Joined July 2008
United States646 Posts
April 07 2010 17:20 GMT
#5
On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?


haha nice.

This is pretty interesting, but it seems unlikely that they'd drop a reaver on the other side of your addon-armory simcity.
FlameSworD
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States414 Posts
April 07 2010 17:24 GMT
#6
stupid pointless
skyhighftw on iccup
TeabagInsurance
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada320 Posts
April 07 2010 18:08 GMT
#7
Nice to find out things like this, but it's kind of ridiculous; it's like a one in a million chance of someone actually pulling this off when it's needed and possible.
Tired of getting teabagged? Get your teabag insurance today!
Chameleon
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States604 Posts
April 07 2010 18:12 GMT
#8
On April 08 2010 02:24 FlameSworD wrote:
stupid pointless


quality post, that was helpful *eyeroll*


Anyways, cool/interesting observation, probably hard to remember/use in the heat of the moment but since i sometimes place my buildings in pvp with reavers in mind i imagine that if I played terran I'd keep this in mind when figuring out my building placement.
TL's #1 Horang2 fan
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4839 Posts
April 07 2010 18:56 GMT
#9
On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?

No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to.
My strategy is to fork people.
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-07 19:25:12
April 07 2010 19:00 GMT
#10
On April 08 2010 02:14 neobowman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2010 01:21 Plexa wrote:
Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory?

I'd assume it has to be an armoury, or he would've stated otherwise.


If you check the building pixel sizes, the armory is the only one with 0 gaps on its sides, and add-ons are the only other building that is small enough on its right side, so aside from 2x armory, this is the only configuration of buildings that can block scarabs (5x5 pixels).

Edit: Oops, this isn't the only situation. A turret or an academy below refinery has a 0 pixel vertical gap. I'll do some more tests later but I have a very safe sim-city configuration in mind to exploit all of this information.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
April 07 2010 19:11 GMT
#11
On April 08 2010 02:20 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?


haha nice.

This is pretty interesting, but it seems unlikely that they'd drop a reaver on the other side of your addon-armory simcity.


The tank also has a fair chance of survival by running to the opposite side of the structures. Only a shuttle can completely bypass the configuration, but you (hopefully) have thoughtfully-placed turrets to limit the shuttle's movement.

The whole idea is that time is not on the shuttle harasser's side. The longer you can stall for more defenses, the better.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
DeathByMonkeys
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States742 Posts
April 07 2010 20:51 GMT
#12
Why is there a video of some random SCV dancing? I thought it was gonna be a video of this strategy in action.

Anyways, this is interesting to know, but unfortunately probably won't come in handy very often
BrodiaQ
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States892 Posts
April 07 2010 21:00 GMT
#13
On April 08 2010 03:56 Severedevil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?

No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to.


Win.

Seems like a cute little trick that could come in handy. Thanks for the info!
"So come right up and let me squash your creativity with my iron fist of conservative play."--Nony
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
April 07 2010 21:06 GMT
#14
Pretty interesting to know, and does seem to work pretty well. Thanks for sharing, maybe this will save me in game on day.

On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to.


Also, nice!
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
April 07 2010 21:20 GMT
#15
You learn something about SC every day!
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9776 Posts
April 07 2010 21:51 GMT
#16
ah shit. i hated scarabs enough already
boomer hands
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
April 07 2010 21:54 GMT
#17
Cute trick! I will definitely do this fail to do this in future TvP's.

The matrix references were worth a laugh
May the BeSt man win.
blueblimp
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-07 21:59:52
April 07 2010 21:58 GMT
#18
On April 08 2010 01:21 Plexa wrote:
Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory?


Using Liquipedia's List of Unit and Building Sizes, here's a list of all scarab-tight configurations for Terran (not tested, but that page has never failed me before, so if there are errors it is my fault):

  • Refinery above Academy, Armory, or Turret
  • Academy below Refinery, Geyser, or Mineral
  • Academy to left of Armory, Geyser, or Mineral
  • Armory below Refinery, Geyser, or Mineral
  • Armory to right of Academy, Armory, any add-on, Geyser, or Mineral
  • Armory to left of Armory, Geyser, or Mineral
  • Turret below Refinery, Geyser, or Mineral
  • Any add-on to left of Armory, Geyser, or Mineral
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
April 07 2010 23:09 GMT
#19
Continuing on from that liquipedia page, it seems if you place a hydra den immediately below your lowest minerals, or evo chamber, or spire, then you've got a nice place to micro around as well. Interesting thread.
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-07 23:22:59
April 07 2010 23:20 GMT
#20
On April 08 2010 08:09 EtherealDeath wrote:
Continuing on from that liquipedia page, it seems if you place a hydra den immediately below your lowest minerals, or evo chamber, or spire, then you've got a nice place to micro around as well. Interesting thread.


Note that the extractor is full size. You can go extractor + evo + den and block off a very large face, making it easier to hold off reaver drops, although your den may already be incorporated into another part of your simcity.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
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