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20 April 2010 Update : Added walls for Moonglaive and Tornado.
I will post example wallings on popular maps, feel free to post any clever wallings you come up with for particular maps and I will include them here (with acknowledgment ofc). Note that these are reduced scenarios: turret placement is left to the player and these do not necessarily take into account zealots, vultures, siege mode, or any other tech - just enough for one tank to hold its ground. In most cases, it is easier to keep your SCVs alive when a scarab is chasing them. In a few cases, your SCVs are virtually untouchable.
Maps: + Show Spoiler +Destination 1.1: + Show Spoiler +12 - I believe the armory and academy are interchangeable here. Note that this is a large enough wall that you can stack SCVs and dodge without maynarding to another base. 6 - Again, the wall is large enough that SCVs can dodge in place, but beware of splash. Fighting Spirit 1.3: + Show Spoiler +1 - This is similar to Hearbreak Ridge 3 o'clock. This is a very good wall against 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock, and an SCV (default CC rally point) can fill the gap between the CC and factory. 5 - This position takes our opponent's location into consideration. The upper wall is best if you expect the shuttle to approach from the north. The lower wall is best if your opponent approaches from the back. 7 - The armory does not interfere with gas mining. The factory rally distance is notably longer: you can also use an academy to the left of the armory, but the scarab is more likely to slip through the left this way so it takes more micro. A starport would be ideal. 11 - This is a tough angle to defend, but you can fight from either side. I wouldn't recommend placing an SCV in the CC factory gap unless you are below the wall, since you won' t have room to maneuver left if you're on top when the scarab takes the shorter path to the right. To put it simply, you want the reaver to be on the concave side of your wall. Heartbreak Ridge 2.1: + Show Spoiler +3 - Note that the default rally point on the command center blocks scarabs from passing between the factory and command center. 6 - The refinery-factory gap is zealot tight, but not scarab tight. Moon Glaive 2.1: + Show Spoiler +1 - This is so simple and provides tons of coverage. The factory does nothing here (unless you move it one matrix right and let an SCV fill the gap), I simply forgot to move it out of the image. 4 - Another good wall, same as HBR. SCV can fill the factory CC gap. Use a starport if you don't like your factory this far in the back of your base. 8 - You can do the factory and armory to the right of the refinery, but I just wanted to note that this is one of the few maps where the armory is tight against the refinery and minerals. Python 1.3: + Show Spoiler +3 - The armory below refinery is scarab tight. 6,9 - Haven't thought of anything good for these yet. 12 - I believe you could alternatively use the armory to seal the mineral gap and move the machine shop against the minerals. Tornado 2.1: + Show Spoiler +1 - This position doesn't have any worthwhile configurations for the 1-base reaver timing we hope to counter, but if for some reason you find yourself in this awesome spot, just know that an SCV blocking the turret/armory gap makes this tight enough that you can continue mining as usual - scarabs only make it around ~10%. A factory and SCV below the CC would make this even stronger. 5 - This position isn't as great as its HBR and Moonglaive analogs, simply because of the gap in the mineral patch. You can go for the same wall in, but I mixed it up here and walled on both sides of the mineral. 7 - Tornado really sucks for scarab walls. Unfortunately, the cliffs aren't scarab tight, so don't hope for much in this position. 11 - This is another "standard" wall with just a factory and armory, but I included the turret positioning to give you an idea of how powerful this configuration is. The shuttle cannot land the reaver without taking turret fire and an unsieged tank has ample space to maneuver . You can go even further with supply depots to make it harder for zealots to get around, but I hope you get the idea.
The inspiration: + Show Spoiler +
The situation: + Show Spoiler +An unscouted 1-base reaver, especially when proxied, is a potent threat to any unprepared Terran. Fortunately, any build that gets an early armory and/or academy can use defensive simcity to create "safe-zones" against scarabs. Believe it or not, the reaver cannot kill this tank.
The micro: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69GRB93IR_I Boxer was revolutionizing TvP even as he embarrassed Zergs.
Many players are already aware that moving units away from a scarab will reduce the damage taken. This subtle feature is already an invaluable micro trick in tight skirmishes. This new technique (let's call it the "Terrantella" dance) is another powerful tool that players have available to them.
What you will need: (1) Armory (complete or incomplete). (2) Add-on (any will do, as long as it's attached).
The add-on+armory wall is scarab-tight, giving you enough lateral distance to get away with this. This is much harder for smaller distances, but the principle is enabled by the fact that the scarab must choose between two long-distance paths to reach its target; rapidly changing direction forces it to recalculate to the new shortest route frequently enough that it ends up going nowhere.
This becomes trivially simple to execute as the wall grows larger. Mineral patches make great natural walls. You can even use this technique to protect your workers if maynarding isn't convenient.
Here's a quick practice map to get the feel for it: [url blocked] I dodged an easy 30 scarabs before slipping up. How many can you get?
Terrans of the world, rejoice! + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GDefu_6eAE& These gypsies dance because they do not fear scarabs.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory?
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What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?
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On April 08 2010 01:21 Plexa wrote: Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory? I'd assume it has to be an armoury, or he would've stated otherwise.
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On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?
haha nice.
This is pretty interesting, but it seems unlikely that they'd drop a reaver on the other side of your addon-armory simcity.
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Nice to find out things like this, but it's kind of ridiculous; it's like a one in a million chance of someone actually pulling this off when it's needed and possible.
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On April 08 2010 02:24 FlameSworD wrote: stupid pointless
quality post, that was helpful *eyeroll*
Anyways, cool/interesting observation, probably hard to remember/use in the heat of the moment but since i sometimes place my buildings in pvp with reavers in mind i imagine that if I played terran I'd keep this in mind when figuring out my building placement.
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On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs? No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to.
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On April 08 2010 02:14 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 01:21 Plexa wrote: Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory? I'd assume it has to be an armoury, or he would've stated otherwise.
If you check the building pixel sizes, the armory is the only one with 0 gaps on its sides, and add-ons are the only other building that is small enough on its right side, so aside from 2x armory, this is the only configuration of buildings that can block scarabs (5x5 pixels).
Edit: Oops, this isn't the only situation. A turret or an academy below refinery has a 0 pixel vertical gap. I'll do some more tests later but I have a very safe sim-city configuration in mind to exploit all of this information.
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On April 08 2010 02:20 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs? haha nice. This is pretty interesting, but it seems unlikely that they'd drop a reaver on the other side of your addon-armory simcity.
The tank also has a fair chance of survival by running to the opposite side of the structures. Only a shuttle can completely bypass the configuration, but you (hopefully) have thoughtfully-placed turrets to limit the shuttle's movement.
The whole idea is that time is not on the shuttle harasser's side. The longer you can stall for more defenses, the better.
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Why is there a video of some random SCV dancing? I thought it was gonna be a video of this strategy in action.
Anyways, this is interesting to know, but unfortunately probably won't come in handy very often
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On April 08 2010 03:56 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs? No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to.
Win.
Seems like a cute little trick that could come in handy. Thanks for the info!
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Pretty interesting to know, and does seem to work pretty well. Thanks for sharing, maybe this will save me in game on day.
On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to.
Also, nice!
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You learn something about SC every day!
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ah shit. i hated scarabs enough already
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Cute trick! I will definitely do this fail to do this in future TvP's.
The matrix references were worth a laugh
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On April 08 2010 01:21 Plexa wrote: Interesting, does it work with other buildings or does it have to be an armory?
Using Liquipedia's List of Unit and Building Sizes, here's a list of all scarab-tight configurations for Terran (not tested, but that page has never failed me before, so if there are errors it is my fault):
- Refinery above Academy, Armory, or Turret
- Academy below Refinery, Geyser, or Mineral
- Academy to left of Armory, Geyser, or Mineral
- Armory below Refinery, Geyser, or Mineral
- Armory to right of Academy, Armory, any add-on, Geyser, or Mineral
- Armory to left of Armory, Geyser, or Mineral
- Turret below Refinery, Geyser, or Mineral
- Any add-on to left of Armory, Geyser, or Mineral
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Continuing on from that liquipedia page, it seems if you place a hydra den immediately below your lowest minerals, or evo chamber, or spire, then you've got a nice place to micro around as well. Interesting thread.
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On April 08 2010 08:09 EtherealDeath wrote: Continuing on from that liquipedia page, it seems if you place a hydra den immediately below your lowest minerals, or evo chamber, or spire, then you've got a nice place to micro around as well. Interesting thread.
Note that the extractor is full size. You can go extractor + evo + den and block off a very large face, making it easier to hold off reaver drops, although your den may already be incorporated into another part of your simcity.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 08 2010 02:24 FlameSworD wrote: stupid pointless I hope you're talking about yourself, and not the OP, since it's a damn good share.
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woa cool
haha after years of playing this game you still learn something new
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I wouldn't build an armory beside my factory add-on just for this though.
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hey question: can this same principal be applied in PvP in some way?
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On April 08 2010 09:44 blahman3344 wrote: hey question: can this same principal be applied in PvP in some way?
Here's the complete list scarab-tight building combinations for Protoss (to my knowledge):
- Robobay below Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory to right of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory above Robobay, Fleet Beacon, Assimilator, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory to left of Geyser or Minerals.
- Fleet Beacon below Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Fleet Beacon to left of Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal below Geyser or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal to right of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal above Robobay, Assimilator, Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal to left of Geyser or Minerals.
So it is probably doable to cook up a PvP simcity that helps somewhat.
Edit: Removed Tribunal-left-of-Beacon combo since I goofed.
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Scarabs are "units" with their sizes, so maybe we're going to see some scarab tight walls?
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On April 08 2010 03:56 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs? No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to. You still will have to dodge scarabs with your scvs since wraiths take an hour to kill reavers.
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On April 08 2010 09:56 blueblimp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 09:44 blahman3344 wrote: hey question: can this same principal be applied in PvP in some way? Here's the complete list scarab-tight building combinations for Protoss (to my knowledge): - Robobay below Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory to right of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory above Robobay, Fleet Beacon, Assimilator, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory to left of Geyser or Minerals.
- Fleet Beacon below Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Fleet Beacon to left of Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal below Geyser or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal to right of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal above Robobay, Assimilator, Fleet Beacon, Geyser or, Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal to left of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
So it is probably doable to cook up a PvP simcity that helps somewhat.
It's not worth it for PvP. The key units here are Fleet beacon (two 0 sides), Arbiter tribunal (4 pixel sides), and assimilator. Only robo below observatory makes sense, and anything else is going to be glued to your assimilator. This barely enables you to block off some of the ground near your mineral line, but you will still have significant gaps, since your Nexus is wide.
That's what you get for picking Protoss.
Edit: One of your combinations is incorrect.
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On April 08 2010 10:41 dhe95 wrote: Scarabs are "units" with their sizes, so maybe we're going to see some scarab tight walls?
Impossible unless you fill the gaps with expendable units. Terran and Zerg can make pretty decent size blockades however, especially if minerals are included.
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On April 08 2010 09:28 meegrean wrote: I wouldn't build an armory beside my factory add-on just for this though.
If you're doing a double-armory build you will have an armory started in time, but not necessarily finished in time for a goliath to defend.
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On April 08 2010 10:56 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 09:56 blueblimp wrote:On April 08 2010 09:44 blahman3344 wrote: hey question: can this same principal be applied in PvP in some way? Here's the complete list scarab-tight building combinations for Protoss (to my knowledge): - Robobay below Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory to right of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory above Robobay, Fleet Beacon, Assimilator, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Observatory to left of Geyser or Minerals.
- Fleet Beacon below Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Fleet Beacon to left of Observatory, Arbiter Tribunal, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal below Geyser or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal to right of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal above Robobay, Assimilator, Fleet Beacon, Geyser or, Minerals.
- Arbiter Tribunal to left of Fleet Beacon, Geyser, or Minerals.
So it is probably doable to cook up a PvP simcity that helps somewhat. It's not worth it for PvP. The key units here are Fleet beacon (two 0 sides), Arbiter tribunal (4 pixel sides), and assimilator. Only robo below observatory makes sense, and anything else is going to be glued to your assimilator. This barely enables you to block off some of the ground near your mineral line, but you will still have significant gaps, since your Nexus is wide. That's what you get for picking Protoss. Edit: One of your combinations is incorrect.
You don't need to be so cryptic when reporting errors in the list. Anyway, I fixed it. (The incorrect combination was Tribunal-left-of-Beacon--apologies to anyone that tried it and had it fail in a PvP :p.)
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On April 08 2010 03:56 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs? No... I'm saying that when your wraith is ready, you won't have to. lol. god that move and anything remotely related to it is awesome.
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I think honestly it's too situational, you wouldn't really land a reaver like that. You can dodge, but you shouldn't have a base set up just for that.
I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to
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I think honestly it's too situational, you wouldn't really land a reaver like that.
Please don't simply speculate from your ass. I've given you a micro map to test for yourself how effective this technique is, and it works from all angles (a tank can outrun a reaver). Why don't you practice this a little before contributing?
You can dodge, but you shouldn't have a base set up just for that.
A standard double armory build can exploit this trick with no modifications, and it adds utility to buildings whose position isn't otherwise important. All you need is a factory with machine shop (tanks are good in TvP: check!) and an armory (double armory means early armory: check!). There is no reason NOT to position your buildings cleverly if it gives you an advantage against 1-base reaver.
When you think about the early-game marine micro and rax+depot simcity that is necessary to hold off zealot pressure (if you don't have a wall), this technique should neither surprise nor intimidate players.
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after a decade there is still secrets being discovered.. god i love this game.. please dont die to sc2
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Interesting post. Any finally I know ow to make a SCV dance. :-)
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On April 08 2010 08:20 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 08:09 EtherealDeath wrote: Continuing on from that liquipedia page, it seems if you place a hydra den immediately below your lowest minerals, or evo chamber, or spire, then you've got a nice place to micro around as well. Interesting thread. Note that the extractor is full size. You can go extractor + evo + den and block off a very large face, making it easier to hold off reaver drops, although your den may already be incorporated into another part of your simcity. Remind me again which zerg ground unit outranges a reaver?
:D
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On April 08 2010 02:02 WaveMotion wrote: What are you trying to tell me? that i can dodge scarabs?
no. im saying that when you're ready... you wont have to
damnit someone beat me to it
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I've uploaded some walls for Fighting Spirit, HBR, Python, and Destination. Check it out! :D
Anyone happen to know of a more reliable image host than imageshack? Can I upload these to liquipedia?
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that destination one actually looks pretty solid. nice find.
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with that map you posted, i find that as soon as the reaver fires a scarab, and you're as close as possible to the buildings, you can spam-move left and right, and the scarab won't go around, but once you stop, it'll loop around the buildings and hit you.
edit : works easiest with the marine http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=34223
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^ This is correct, you have to keep moving until the scarab is going to timeout. If you have a larger wall, you can spam more slowly and take longer breaks in between spamming (once you resume spamming the scarab will move back to the center of the wall). The scenario is about as hard as you should expect to perform (only a factory and armory), although it is worth mentioning that you can do this trick with even smaller walls but this is very hard to do so forget I said that. When you create larger walls (see the map-specific wall-ins I posted) you can be very lazy once you know just how to control where the scarab moves.
The vulture is the most responsive unit, but it moves so quickly that you need to be careful not to move too far to either side, making it easy for the scarab to make its decision. Marines are slow and responsive, so it is pretty easy. Tanks are sluggish to reverse direction, but if you're careful not to misclick on the tank, you shouldn't have any trouble with this either.
Also, make sure that you're spamming only a short distance to either side. You want precision over speed, and you shouldn't need to hurt your hand doing this. Once you're comfortable dodging, you can take a brief break from spamming to fire back at the reaver, or you can take the time to adjust to either side if the scarab is gaining ground on you. Always remain opposite of the reaver & scarab, even if you have to switch sides.
tldr: practice makes perfect, but it isn't very difficult once you get the hang of it. And if you do fuck up, just move away as it hits you to take reduced damage. :p
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Update: Added some more walls for Moonglaive and Tornado.
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