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Release
United States4397 Posts
Reavers seem to move to attack even when the target is in range. Scarabs dud, hover around nothing, follow without exploding on a unit. The only pro who seems to have good reaver control is stork. Is there any particular reason reavers are so stupid? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10151 Posts
fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. | ||
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[V]
United States905 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Another way to think of it is a miss chance, but with skill involved. Good worker conga lines can completely avoid any damage if the defender pulls them away at the right time and angle. And the attacker can increase the chance of maximum damage by picking good targets that are more likely not gonna get away and create the dud. This, to me, is far better than if they either a) toned down the damage or b) gave it a random miss chance. And choice c) 100% hit rate, is totally out of the question for the sake of worker's rights. You don't want an SCV Union do you? | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
And the "move even when in range" thing is hardly relevant imo. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:17 .V. wrote: I'm sorry but I thought anyone from the BW sections knew this, especially someone who I saw quite often, like you sir, Release. Anyway, what could BW have been if boxer remained protoss... i actually just tried to use reavers, and was terribly bad at it. Much harder than other dropship/shuttle play. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote: They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs. fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. Fun fact: Did you know that people used to dodge BoxeR because BW was predominantly American/South American, and they thought he was a hacker, and from Japan, not Korea. He used to sit in public games for hours sometimes and wait for people. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:28 Game wrote: Fun fact: Did you know that people used to dodge BoxeR because BW was predominantly American/South American, and they thought he was a hacker, and from Japan, not Korea. He used to sit in public games for hours sometimes and wait for people. I didn't know that, that's actually far more interesting! | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
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Ideas
United States8091 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:31 Hesmyrr wrote: I didn't know that, that's actually far more interesting! Fun fact #2: He popularized the wall on Lost Temple, I learned it from sons[x] when I tried to PvT him, had a huge advantage, and couldn't figure out to kill the wall. sons[x] then told me (in toyland) that he learned it from BoxeR, and that BoxeR was a hacker regardless of his genius wall. Edit: unsure if toyland or -=^un4^=- | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:32 Game wrote: Fun fact #2: He popularized the wall on Lost Temple, I learned it from sons[x] when I tried to PvT him, had a huge advantage, and couldn't figure out to kill the wall. sons[x] then told me (in toyland) that he learned it from BoxeR, and that BoxeR was a hacker regardless of his genius wall. Edit: unsure if toyland or -=^un4^=- You should make your own "progammer gossip" thread game :p | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
*Game lights the campfire and gathers the children around the soothing source of warmth* "Listen well, kids. I shall tell you a story of the old days..."  More! | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:31 endy wrote: When I see the latest Stork vs Flash, I don't find them that retarded. Stork is the only exception out of the entire progaming community. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:26 Spekulatius wrote: The "following without exploding on a unit" symptom is mostly caused by a congo line of fleeing units. For example, when you have an SCV train running away from a scarab and the reaver targeted one of the SCVs in the middle, it will get stuck on the last SCV in the line and then explode without doing anything. This sucks on the one hand but is reasonable: you don't want your scarab to explode on the first unit/building it encounters but rather hit the unit/building it was destined to. That's just how it was designed and that's hard to change imo. Aside from that, it makes for the most exciting moments in a match. And the "move even when in range" thing is hardly relevant imo. Sometimes though scarabs will completely miss their target and fly into open space and blow up. Its pretty funny. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:46 Release wrote: Stork is the only exception out of the entire progaming community. So when you get a High Templar icon are you going to ask why HT's have caster delay and must each cast storm separately else they will all target the same location? | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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kdgns
United States2427 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:53 puppykiller wrote: So when you get a High Templar icon are you going to ask why HT's have caster delay and must each cast storm separately else they will all target the same location? HTs don't target the same location if you magic box it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=33677 | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Yeah, pretty much. | ||
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote: I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber? I kind of think that what happened was that they didn't (either on purpose or by accident) reset the targeting to match the actual attack cooldown when they did that. So you end up with reavers trying to target the wrong thing. Though that's only my guesswork based on watching hundreds of games and trying to micro reavers myself. Anyway it seems a lot rarer to have duds when the reavers are staying on the ground, though that could be a false impression. | ||
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7FPCw.png) Cute pic xd | ||
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Assault_1
Canada1950 Posts
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:03 VGhost wrote: I kind of think that what happened was that they didn't (either on purpose or by accident) reset the targeting to match the actual attack cooldown when they did that. So you end up with reavers trying to target the wrong thing. Though that's only my guesswork based on watching hundreds of games and trying to micro reavers myself. Anyway it seems a lot rarer to have duds when the reavers are staying on the ground, though that could be a false impression. Hmmmmm interesting. Can anyone confirm whether they did intentionally dumb down the AI? | ||
Falling
Canada11349 Posts
Anyways, I'm pretty sure that ai scarab is semi-predictable depending on what angle you're attacking- and then what angle the opponent retreats. Reaver micro is perhaps one of my favourite things even though I suck at it. Regardless of how dumb the ai may be, it creates such exciting play. | ||
white_horse
1019 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:50 sluggaslamoo wrote: Sometimes though scarabs will completely miss their target and fly into open space and blow up. Its pretty funny. Yeah, that happens when the targeted unit has already died, and I believe the scarab automatically explodes if it fails to hit anything after a certain period of time. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
"we felt the reaver Ai was too intellectual so the Reaver Ai has been reverted to drunk 4th grader levels" | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:46 white_horse wrote: Yeah, that happens when the targeted unit has already died, and I believe the scarab automatically explodes if it fails to hit anything after a certain period of time. Think of them as a blob of energy that decreases its battery life as each seconds pass by. Then everything will start to make more sense. | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
Reavers are not in fact machines but have been nerfed to become emotionally attached to the player controlling it. As a result, only the kindest and forgiving Protoss players are able to earn the genuine affection of the reaver who trains secretly on its own until it is mechanically perfect. i.e. Stork and Jangbi love and care for their revears and their reavers care for them. And of course, this statement is reverse causal: if a player does not treat his revear with love and adoration, the reaver will not listen to you. | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5501 Posts
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bearbuddy
3442 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:55 Taekwon wrote: This actually allows me to clarify something. Reavers are not in fact machines but have been nerfed to become emotionally attached to the player controlling it. As a result, only the kindest and forgiving Protoss players are able to earn the genuine affection of the reaver who trains secretly on its own until it is mechanically perfect. i.e. Stork loves and cares for his revears and his reavers care for him. And of course, this statement is reverse causal: if a player does not treat his revear with love and adoration, the reaver will not listen to you. But Much made a heart out of pylons and canons! | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:45 Spekulatius wrote: *Sunset* *Game lights the campfire and gathers the children around the soothing source of warmth* "Listen well, kids. I shall tell you a story of the old days..." More! I really only know things from 98-00 and 05-06 progamer wise. Although, from 98-00 most of it is about irrelevant non-Koreans who were the first pros, or potentially could've been. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
But TBH, this is also one of the good things about SC. Yes, it's true that no matter how good you get your reavers will still do stupid things, but if you look at the elite users of reavers throughout history dating all the way back to Zileas, it's always been said that their reavers were "different." Somehow they bug less frequently and score big kills more often. Reavers are a unit that require huge star sense, similar to muta vs scourge except even higher. In other words, this is yet another case of Starcraft favoring the better player who practices harder to perfect his usage of a unit. | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On February 15 2012 13:10 Game wrote: I really only know things from 98-00 and 05-06 progamer wise. Although, from 98-00 most of it is about irrelevant non-Koreans who were the first pros, or potentially could've been. That doesn't mean we don't want to hear your stories. They sound interesting! | ||
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PetitCrabe
Canada410 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
If you could micro your scarab. It is a physical unit after all. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On February 15 2012 13:26 PetitCrabe wrote: That is extremely interesting to know. For some stupid reason, I always thought they were just badly programmed and blizzard decided to leave them like that. I didn't know they were intentionally stupid from the beginning. It is something of a concept, making something more difficult to use as opposed to just lowering it's damage. Reavers are a glorious unit. Viable in all match-ups, always powerful, yet they are arguably the most temperamental unit in the game. That doesn't really happen anymore. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:50 sluggaslamoo wrote: Sometimes though scarabs will completely miss their target and fly into open space and blow up. Its pretty funny. Or we have masterful Bisu reavers, whose scarabs go crazy... (i know there was one game where a scarab bugged over terrain, but i'll have to find it... for now, this will do~ :D) Classic example of dud upon dud... | ||
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On February 15 2012 13:12 Mortality wrote: Wait, you just noticed this? But TBH, this is also one of the good things about SC. Yes, it's true that no matter how good you get your reavers will still do stupid things, but if you look at the elite users of reavers throughout history dating all the way back to Zileas, it's always been said that their reavers were "different." Somehow they bug less frequently and score big kills more often. Reavers are a unit that require huge star sense, similar to muta vs scourge except even higher. In other words, this is yet another case of Starcraft favoring the better player who practices harder to perfect his usage of a unit. I wanted to make a post about this and I agree. Stupid reaver AI making BW a more exciting game and creating a broader skill range is but one reason why BW is BW today. If every soccer player was given the ability to laser the ball into the net with the help of a computer, or if every soccer player was given the ability to run at 30 mph equally, who would want to watch soccer anymore when things start to become standardized? Same goes for competitive gaming. | ||
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Jragon
Australia1471 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:23 sluggaslamoo wrote: Even though its actually the coolest nerf to a unit I've ever seen. Agreed, lobotomy as nerf haha | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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.ImchEEzy
Canada123 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote: They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs. fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. epic fun fact | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
A lot of things seem like they are random but they're not. Elite players are elite for a reason. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 14:32 Jragon wrote: More stories from ye olde days of BW please Game! Fun fact #3: Maynard, whom I shared a relationship with outside of what is coming next, believed the strongest early game build would cover any lategame mishaps, and 2facted everybody. Not only did he go for early pushes, but he copied a lot of players, he was one of the first voyeurs of his time. Two things resulted from this, as he was a prominent 2v2 player of his time, the "cheesy" metagame of 2v2 (not fully to credit him with obviously), and the East mentality. He is one of the original founders, or rather, he had enough notoriety and was good enough to be taken seriously with his attitude, aka the USEast mentality. The BM, squandering of opponents, and super gay gameplay alike defined this. + Show Spoiler + Do note that most gameplay was cheesy and not well planned at this point in BW anyhow, he just took it to an entirely different level | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On February 15 2012 14:48 Game wrote: Fun fact #3: Maynard, whom I shared a relationship with outside of what is coming next, believed the strongest early game build would cover any lategame mishaps, and 2facted everybody. Not only did he go for early pushes, but he copied a lot of players, he was one of the first voyeurs of his time. Two things resulted from this, as he was a prominent 2v2 player of his time, the "cheesy" metagame of 2v2 (not fully to credit him with obviously), and the East mentality. He is one of the original founders, or rather, he had enough notoriety and was good enough to be taken seriously with his attitude, aka the USEast mentality. The BM, squandering of opponents, and super gay gameplay alike defined this. + Show Spoiler + Do note that most gameplay was cheesy and not well planned at this point in BW anyhow, he just took it to an entirely different level I was expecting worse, especially back then 2 fact can't have been that bad. Although interesting because I originally assumed he was the master of macro. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote: They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs. fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. This fun fact needs to be highlighted/thrown into his fan club. What a baller BoxeR is | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote: They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs. fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. Just to clarify, blizz didn't make the reaver ai more stupid, they just changed the cooldown of reavers that were dropped from shuttles. Originally they were zero, like tanks that shoot when dropped. So if you hotkeyed your reaver you could instantly pop it back in and make it look like your shuttle was firing scarabs. This was incredibly overpowered. Then boxer switched to terran and the rest is history. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Also if you issue the stop command for the Reaver while the scarab is out on the field, the scarab will instantly dud and explode. Useful if the scarab is acting retarded and just bugging out around some terrain/building, and you want to refire right away. I just love all the awesome intricacies that BW has, really gives the game so much depth and skill differentiation :D On February 15 2012 14:39 figq wrote: The problem I have with this is that it's way too "random" than "difficult". PvP in particular, often seems to me particularly random even at the highest level. I disagree with this notion, PvP is one of my favorite matchups, which I find to be largely determined by skill. The only "randomness" occurs with builds, which is mostly build advantages and disadvantages, instead of outright build victories and losses. If you're smart and good at mindgaming/reading your opponent, you can achieve a very high winrate in PvP (I feel that Brave and Horang2 in particular are very good at the psychology part of PvP) | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
ok i got ninjad but idk how O_O the reason the reaver and scarab AI (which are different) is bad, is because it was made bad. they probably have some sort of "min step amount" that means they can't turn fast. + Show Spoiler + On February 15 2012 15:31 pyrogenetix wrote: Just to clarify, blizz didn't make the reaver ai more stupid, they just changed the cooldown of reavers that were dropped from shuttles. Originally they were zero, like tanks that shoot when dropped. So if you hotkeyed your reaver you could instantly pop it back in and make it look like your shuttle was firing scarabs. This was incredibly overpowered. Then boxer switched to terran and the rest is history. This guy is right. | ||
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gladsheim
Australia676 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:44 gladsheim wrote: there should be an upgrade at the support bay called 'reaver brain' Cost: over 9000 | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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GTR
51441 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote: I think snow has the best reaver micro 1. Legionnaire 2. IntoTheRainbow indisputable. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote: 2. IntoTheRainbow indisputable. Edit: What he said. | ||
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
besides, it to the excitement when your scarab actually hits something, and its ie 15 probes or something ;P | ||
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CakeOrI)eath
United States327 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:11 Release wrote: The only pro who seems to have good reaver control is stork. I only half agree with you. Many pros have good reaver micro (just watch a PvP), its just that just as many pros have good anti-reaver micro. They run workers away so quickly that by the time the reaver unloads and shoots, the scarab is almost guaranteed to dud. | ||
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vanatir
Germany355 Posts
very mystique unit ^^ | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Primarily, scarabs have a portrait size of 5x5 pixels, and are subject to the same pathfinding constraints as any other unit -- if it can fit within 5 pixels, it can path through. The pathfinding itself is a shortest path to the target's location + some distance ahead in the direction that it is moving. This means that if the unit moves back and forth rapidly, then the scarab will also change its path. This can be abused to great effect. Additionally, unit movement avoids obstacles by moving closer as much as possible until it is in contact, then it wall-follows around as well as it can. For small units, there are many opportunities to fit through crevices, so the pathfinding takes those opportunities. But those narrow paths are also more likely to become obstructed as other units move around. The scarab does not detonate until it gets within a small threshold of the target, which is why stacked workers are a problem. The detonation does damage at two levels (just like a nuclear missile), such that fleeing units can get away without the full hit. A "dud" or timeout does zero damage. If you want to get the most out of your scarab: (1) When firing at stacked units, fire from a position that the units are moving toward or perpendicular to the reaver. Fleeing units take reduced damage, stacked fleeing units make it impossible to hit your target unless your target is at the rear of the stack. (2) Fire across a direct open path, not when large buildings, minerals, or walls are in between. Mineral patches are scarab tight, and even non-tight walls can become tight if a single non-targeted unit fills the gap. (3) Review the scarab-tight wall-ins and avoid firing from those angles, or variations. I found need in a game to fight off a reaver with a tank, and I used only my command center and the pathfinding exploit to nullify the scarabs and keep my tank alive until the rest of my tanks arrived. You can even do it on a lone refinery, but this is very difficult. | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
But Julyzerg had counter for it until Blizzard fixed it later on. | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
LOL PWND OLD SCHOOL MOTHER FUCKER on a side note, its interesting to look at the "simpler" builds taking hold in modern BW, 10gate PvZ, 1,1,1, 3gate goon PVP, the more macro builds ... idk its like , it would be really hard micro 100 dragoons well because it would take insane APM. but if you are really good at " dancing " a hero unit like the reaver, you could hold 1 against 100. This has been happening since the first macro , iLoveOOv | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Legionnaires reaver micro/macro multitask was sick good. He was never fancy, but his reaver never died ever. | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1074 Posts
A lot of what we called reaver micro is actually shuttle micro.... Gogo Shuttle + Reaver!!! | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
Jianfei??? >________< | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote: I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber? They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. This man Demands VODS!!! | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. Believe it as you may not but simply googling intotherainbow will give you highlights and calling "Grrr..." a mere foreigner is an insult to his starleague victory http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/237_Grrrr... And if this was not blizzards intention why do you think they did not revert this change? | ||
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sAw
965 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence. Seriously, it's a true story. Legionnaire held a record with 57 kills on a single reaver, like, 10 years ago. But I would still say Rainbow was better, his reavers were constantly amazing. Ah, those were the days. :'( | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote: They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000. Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times. I thought as much. Yeah I think the greatest competitive games are often a solid, well designed game with some amount of ridiculous luck to make things balanced at the highest levels of play, something no game designer could ever foresee. It makes for the best games though. :D | ||
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MisterKatosS
France352 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote: They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs. fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today. False, Ai has always been terrible they just added a cooldown to shuttles for load/unload to nerf reaver drops | ||
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HistRevist
9 Posts
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sAw
965 Posts
http://www.sclegacy.com/features/pp/pp03/replays/pp03 - giyom_maelstrom.rep A bit off topic, but still... I think everyone should watch this beautiful. amazing game. Btw, the rep is for BW 1.09., I can upload the exe if necessary. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
Came back to BW after 2 years SC2 ... and the first two things that came to my mind were: 1) Wow ... how the hell could reaver/scarab/goons be so damn stupid!?! 2) OMG ... PvZ is really f ' ing challenging!!! I used to complain a lot about it being imba ... now i remember why! | ||
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choas
Canada23 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:50 ShatterZer0 wrote: And thus, there are no reavers in SC2. Because they would have to either reduce the damage to something utterly pitiful... or dumb down the AI. Which they weren't willing to do, a la ball armies. Aye, Reavers in SC2 would dominate, specially with the AI clumping up everything | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:43 ArvickHero wrote: Don't get me wrong, I only mean situations in which the random behavior of scarabs (or even dragoons) can turn the tide of otherwise even battles.I disagree with this notion, PvP is one of my favorite matchups, which I find to be largely determined by skill. The only "randomness" occurs with builds, which is mostly build advantages and disadvantages, instead of outright build victories and losses. If you're smart and good at mindgaming/reading your opponent, you can achieve a very high winrate in PvP (I feel that Brave and Horang2 in particular are very good at the psychology part of PvP) | ||
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:35 MisterKatosS wrote: False, Ai has always been terrible they just added a cooldown to shuttles for load/unload to nerf reaver drops Ok, good that this has been clarified by several people. I played back in 1998 and my world would have been shattered if for more than a decade I forgot the patch were they made "reavers more stupid". I still remember those Reaver drops, basically flying Reavers. It was just impossible to deal with. | ||
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elagrion
Ukraine422 Posts
one can use to make reavers better? Thats would be very helpful to get refer-micro fix Is there any guide on that particular matter? (hell, i even made a rhymes ) | ||
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mansa
Philippines336 Posts
On February 15 2012 20:19 elagrion wrote: I have more interesting question, what technics one can use to make reavers better? Thats would be very helpful to get refer-micro fix Is there any guide on that particular matter? (hell, i even made a rhymes )Well, for me the moment you drop the reaver you target where units/worker clumps the most. Also Liquipedia has a guide about this. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Reaver_Drop | ||
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
http://classic.battle.net/scc/br/final1.shtml "A Shuttle that fires Scarabs… This illusion would describe just how fast Zileas was able to move a Reaver in and out of a Shuttle, firing the massive war machine's payload almost without the Reaver being seen. " It had to be nerfed. | ||
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
a) BW in general is terrible in terms of pathing; and b) Like spidermines, scarabs won't explode unless it hits the actual specific unit it attacked(the one right-clicked or the one the AI targeted), which is why scarabs would most likely miss stacked maynarding workers(because they can't touch the specific unit it targets if it's in the middle of the pack). The only difference is that mines can follow a target forever while a scarab cannot. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
And Zileas! | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On February 15 2012 19:49 figq wrote: Don't get me wrong, I only mean situations in which the random behavior of scarabs (or even dragoons) can turn the tide of otherwise even battles. I think that is even less random than build order luck, Reaver scarab is honestly not as random as people make it out to be, especially in battle micro situations where skill plays a huge role in both sides. I'm curious to see any consistent examples where battles were decided be scarab luck, instead of battle skill where the Reaver microer targeted a clump, or the other player just failed to spread his units | ||
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
Vs goons it doesn't even matter since goons can only negate a tiny bit of damage by running away. If your scarabs somehow dud vs goons you are incredibly bad or shooting from the ramp or something. I don't really understand complaints about unit ai in bw. When you first start spamming like an idiot sure it can be annoying that goons freeze and can't move, but everything in BW is predictable and is a result of something you did. You need these little quirks to make the game interesting. Guardians decelerate too slow to stop at their maximum range and often get hit by turrets if you're not careful too. These are things that require concentration and make you feel like you're actually playing a game instead of watching it like some kind of choose your own adventure book. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:47 HistRevist wrote: All units get a cooldown when unloaded from a transport, this was the "fix" to transports firing heavy shots. Well, protoss mech units do. Zealots don't, and neither do tanks. But dragoons and reavers both have a cooldown when unloaded from shuttles. I'm blanking. Was that patch pre-BW? Or was it one of the changes that came out when BW was released? | ||
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
Also, it kind of works as a balancing element. Against vulnerable workers, reaver scarabs tend to dud as long as the workers are hurried away from the reaver. If the player is too slow to notice, then he/she is punished with a massive dent in their economy. Against strong dangerous foes like tanks, reaver control is now up to the owner (not the recipient... of the damage. okay terminology kinda weird) - as the player sacrifices a zealot or another to the tank volley and reaver sneaks in a powerful splash in between the cooldowns. Anyways, I love the reaver. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
On February 15 2012 23:33 ArvickHero wrote: You can see it almost anytime anyone uses reavers - some scarabs get stuck in absolutely weird unpredictable ways, others don't. Sure, there is also skill involved in dealing with this probability, avoiding potential blocks, but still (sh)it happens.I think that is even less random than build order luck, Reaver scarab is honestly not as random as people make it out to be, especially in battle micro situations where skill plays a huge role in both sides. I'm curious to see any consistent examples where battles were decided be scarab luck, instead of battle skill where the Reaver microer targeted a clump, or the other player just failed to spread his units | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:33 Iplaythings wrote: Believe it as you may not but simply googling intotherainbow will give you highlights http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoSUNM93XA4 and calling "Grrr..." a mere foreigner is an insult to his starleague victory http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/237_Grrrr... And if this was not blizzards intention why do you think they did not revert this change? What? Legionnaire = Grr...? Also, Legionnaire posted a loooong explanation on how to reaver micro: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=31330¤tpage=2#23 On September 09 2005 06:38 Legionnaire wrote: Trying to remember how i do the stuff. I think i drop it, then select both and right click on a target, select the shuttle spin it back around to pick up the reaver, that way the shuttle never loses speed.You can get the timing perfect so it spins and picks it up just as it has fired. Most of it is just experience in the timing of knowing when it is about to shoot, then you just do everything else around that. A few small things is if you DO drop it BEHIND the minerals. Make sure it is RIGHT ON THEM.That way it will fire through the minerals instead of going around. Else just drop in or to the side. Zealot/goon drop and reaver is good as you can take out quite a lot of tanks by drawing the fire away. Also if you see a lone tank seiged just drop on it or near it and it dies before they can do anything. There are so many games you can win from harassing just knowing where you can drop safely, and every unit you kill is a bonus. After some practice you will see situations where you can take on 3-4 tanks and know you will win the fight. I think there were some games with ArtOfTerran where i killed 5+ tanks with 1 reaver and zealot. I remember one with 7 kills, and thats an instant game winner. So yeah its not necessary to go only after scvs. Normally you can get them anyway after you knock some tanks off.And if they focus so much on defence to stop the reaver they wont have enough to stop the attack from the front. After every mini successful raid, just move the shuttle around a little (they will still be focused on it) and go back and build more stuff at your main, before refocusing on your harrassing units. Reavers rule. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7886 Posts
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:01 Biff The Understudy wrote: Am I the only one to have noticed that OP is a reaver? It makes this thread title delicious :p Well, I did notice that he was a reaver but when I re-read the title, I lol'd. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On February 16 2012 00:44 figq wrote: You can see it almost anytime anyone uses reavers - some scarabs get stuck in absolutely weird unpredictable ways, others don't. Sure, there is also skill involved in dealing with this probability, avoiding potential blocks, but still (sh)it happens. in battle situations where there are no real blocks to make the scarabs bug out? Sure maybe in harass scenarios there will be a little bit of luck involved, but in battle scenarios there is almost no luck regarding reaver micro | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
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pylonsalad
Canada649 Posts
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
On February 15 2012 21:14 mansa wrote: Well, for me the moment you drop the reaver you target where units/worker clumps the most. Also Liquipedia has a guide about this. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Reaver_DropNever saw that page before, its really good !!! And also, maybe just over the years most pros learned how to Counter glitch scarabs, i remember an interview with like flash i think where he was like "yeah you just run away from scarabs as they hit you, then they do less damage" . you often see pros counter microing against reavers really well these days. hmm also maybe its harder to hit workers when they are currently assigned to gather minerals? | ||
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:32 Ideas wrote: also kal has better shuttle/reaver micro than stork The Red Shuttle! Kal is awesome. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2268 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:32 Game wrote: Fun fact #2: He popularized the wall on Lost Temple, I learned it from sons[x] when I tried to PvT him, had a huge advantage, and couldn't figure out to kill the wall. sons[x] then told me (in toyland) that he learned it from BoxeR, and that BoxeR was a hacker regardless of his genius wall. Edit: unsure if toyland or -=^un4^=- actually it wasnt boxer, it was ssangjamg or something like that. edit: Ssamjang "SSamJang was one of the first "stars" of StarCraft. In ways, he was the first real media icon of StarCraft and appeared in commercials. For this, as well as his gaming skills, he was even envied by BoxeR who saw him as a source of inspiration. Early in his career SSamJang used to play all races in tournaments but eventually just stuck to Terran. He retired in 2004" (Liquipedia) | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
No kal has better shuttle micro, stork has better reaver micro ^^ :D | ||
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InTheRainBOw
Argentina27 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On February 15 2012 11:31 endy wrote: When I see the latest Stork vs Flash, I don't find them that retarded. Stork's reavers are a step above the rest, lol. It's not fair comparing anyone else to him. | ||
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