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Why are reavers stupid? - Page 6

Forum Index > BW General
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Prev 1 4 5 6 All
D4V3Z02
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany693 Posts
February 15 2012 15:28 GMT
#101
Because they are golden worms who shoot balllazerz.
http://www.twitch.tv/d4v3z02 all your base are belong to overlord
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
February 15 2012 15:44 GMT
#102
On February 15 2012 23:33 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 19:49 figq wrote:
On February 15 2012 15:43 ArvickHero wrote:
On February 15 2012 14:39 figq wrote:
The problem I have with this is that it's way too "random" than "difficult". PvP in particular, often seems to me particularly random even at the highest level.

I disagree with this notion, PvP is one of my favorite matchups, which I find to be largely determined by skill. The only "randomness" occurs with builds, which is mostly build advantages and disadvantages, instead of outright build victories and losses. If you're smart and good at mindgaming/reading your opponent, you can achieve a very high winrate in PvP (I feel that Brave and Horang2 in particular are very good at the psychology part of PvP)
Don't get me wrong, I only mean situations in which the random behavior of scarabs (or even dragoons) can turn the tide of otherwise even battles.

I think that is even less random than build order luck, Reaver scarab is honestly not as random as people make it out to be, especially in battle micro situations where skill plays a huge role in both sides. I'm curious to see any consistent examples where battles were decided be scarab luck, instead of battle skill where the Reaver microer targeted a clump, or the other player just failed to spread his units
You can see it almost anytime anyone uses reavers - some scarabs get stuck in absolutely weird unpredictable ways, others don't. Sure, there is also skill involved in dealing with this probability, avoiding potential blocks, but still (sh)it happens.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
February 15 2012 15:49 GMT
#103
On February 15 2012 18:33 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 18:10 Ribbon wrote:
On February 15 2012 11:32 Wohmfg wrote:
I thought the only significant nerf to reavers was that they stopped the scarab shot reload time from resetting when it was loaded into a shuttle so that players couldn't fire off scarabs at a ridiculously imba rate. I didn't know they actually made the AI dumber?


They didn't. Even though stupid AI makes the reavers fun to watch and "fun" to use, no game designer on earth would go "This unit is too strong. Obviously the best fix is to make it not work based on obscure and arbitrary factors". They would have no way of knowing it'd work out like that. Most of the balance of BW is pure dumb luck and KeSPA's mapmaking skills, rather than any amazing plans by Blizzard's balancing team of 2000.

Remember, too, BW AI is intensely retarded at the best of times.

On February 15 2012 15:52 GTR wrote:
On February 15 2012 12:13 Assault_1 wrote:
I think snow has the best reaver micro


1. Legionnaire
2. IntoTheRainbow

indisputable.


I find it extremely hard to believe a foreigner and an SC2 B-teamer had great reaver micro. I demand VODs for evidence.

Believe it as you may not but simply googling intotherainbow will give you highlights

and calling "Grrr..." a mere foreigner is an insult to his starleague victory http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/237_Grrrr...

And if this was not blizzards intention why do you think they did not revert this change?


What? Legionnaire = Grr...?

Also, Legionnaire posted a loooong explanation on how to reaver micro:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=31330&currentpage=2#23

On September 09 2005 06:38 Legionnaire wrote:
Trying to remember how i do the stuff.

I think i drop it, then select both and right click on a target, select the shuttle spin it back around to pick up the reaver, that way the shuttle never loses speed.You can get the timing perfect so it spins and picks it up just as it has fired.

Most of it is just experience in the timing of knowing when it is about to shoot, then you just do everything else around that.

A few small things is if you DO drop it BEHIND the minerals. Make sure it is RIGHT ON THEM.That way it will fire through the minerals instead of going around. Else just drop in or to the side.

Zealot/goon drop and reaver is good as you can take out quite a lot of tanks by drawing the fire away. Also if you see a lone tank seiged just drop on it or near it and it dies before they can do anything. There are so many games you can win from harassing just knowing where you can drop safely, and every unit you kill is a bonus.

After some practice you will see situations where you can take on 3-4 tanks and know you will win the fight. I think there were some games with ArtOfTerran where i killed 5+ tanks with 1 reaver and zealot. I remember one with 7 kills, and thats an instant game winner. So yeah its not necessary to go only after scvs. Normally you can get them anyway after you knock some tanks off.And if they focus so much on defence to stop the reaver they wont have enough to stop the attack from the front.

After every mini successful raid, just move the shuttle around a little (they will still be focused on it) and go back and build more stuff at your main, before refocusing on your harrassing units.

Reavers rule.

Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7886 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 16:02:58
February 15 2012 16:01 GMT
#104
Am I the only one to have noticed that OP is a reaver? It makes this thread title delicious :p
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
February 15 2012 16:14 GMT
#105
On February 16 2012 01:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Am I the only one to have noticed that OP is a reaver? It makes this thread title delicious :p


Well, I did notice that he was a reaver but when I re-read the title, I lol'd.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
February 15 2012 18:15 GMT
#106
There's debate as to whether reaver ai was ever nerfed or that was just a misreading of boxer's biography and reavers just got nerfed in that they couldn't do shuttle micro after a patch.
BlackMagister
Profile Joined October 2008
United States5834 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 18:29:55
February 15 2012 18:29 GMT
#107
What no there isn't. The guy on the first page is just wrong. BW units behave like scarabs too. Have you seen "lightspeed" units that get stuck on each other than run really fast. Same thing as scarabs. Mines also have trouble killing units in a "conga" line when their target is in the middle. Dragoons are also one of the most retarded units. If Blizzard had the power to make AI better and worse they would have fixed the other stupid pathing units.

ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
February 15 2012 18:58 GMT
#108
On February 16 2012 00:44 figq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 23:33 ArvickHero wrote:
On February 15 2012 19:49 figq wrote:
On February 15 2012 15:43 ArvickHero wrote:
On February 15 2012 14:39 figq wrote:
The problem I have with this is that it's way too "random" than "difficult". PvP in particular, often seems to me particularly random even at the highest level.

I disagree with this notion, PvP is one of my favorite matchups, which I find to be largely determined by skill. The only "randomness" occurs with builds, which is mostly build advantages and disadvantages, instead of outright build victories and losses. If you're smart and good at mindgaming/reading your opponent, you can achieve a very high winrate in PvP (I feel that Brave and Horang2 in particular are very good at the psychology part of PvP)
Don't get me wrong, I only mean situations in which the random behavior of scarabs (or even dragoons) can turn the tide of otherwise even battles.

I think that is even less random than build order luck, Reaver scarab is honestly not as random as people make it out to be, especially in battle micro situations where skill plays a huge role in both sides. I'm curious to see any consistent examples where battles were decided be scarab luck, instead of battle skill where the Reaver microer targeted a clump, or the other player just failed to spread his units
You can see it almost anytime anyone uses reavers - some scarabs get stuck in absolutely weird unpredictable ways, others don't. Sure, there is also skill involved in dealing with this probability, avoiding potential blocks, but still (sh)it happens.

in battle situations where there are no real blocks to make the scarabs bug out? Sure maybe in harass scenarios there will be a little bit of luck involved, but in battle scenarios there is almost no luck regarding reaver micro
Writerptrk
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
February 15 2012 22:15 GMT
#109
Try telling Draco that reavers are stupid.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
pylonsalad
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada649 Posts
February 15 2012 22:31 GMT
#110
My biggest issue with reavers is not dud scarabs but that they won't shoot at static defence from certain angles and instead like to walk to their death.
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
February 15 2012 22:38 GMT
#111
On February 15 2012 21:14 mansa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 20:19 elagrion wrote:
I have more interesting question, what technics
one can use to make reavers better?
Thats would be very helpful to get refer-micro fix
Is there any guide on that particular matter?

(hell, i even made a rhymes )


Well, for me the moment you drop the reaver you target where units/worker clumps the most.

Also Liquipedia has a guide about this. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Reaver_Drop

Never saw that page before, its really good !!!

And also, maybe just over the years most pros learned how to Counter glitch scarabs, i remember an interview with like flash i think where he was like "yeah you just run away from scarabs as they hit you, then they do less damage" . you often see pros counter microing against reavers really well these days.

hmm also maybe its harder to hit workers when they are currently assigned to gather minerals?
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
BearStorm
Profile Joined September 2010
United States795 Posts
February 15 2012 22:44 GMT
#112
On February 15 2012 11:32 Ideas wrote:
also kal has better shuttle/reaver micro than stork


The Red Shuttle! Kal is awesome.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2269 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 23:08:13
February 15 2012 23:06 GMT
#113
On February 15 2012 11:32 Game wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 11:31 Hesmyrr wrote:
On February 15 2012 11:28 Game wrote:
On February 15 2012 11:13 FlaShFTW wrote:
They were originally too good with their ai. think of it, then everyone would go for reavers and kill like a billion scvs. so blizzard nerfed the ai of it so it would become "retarded" and have "dud" scarabs.

fun fact: did you know boxer loved reavers that he was protoss back in the day? then blizzard nerfed the reaver so boxer became the famous terran dropship maniac today.

Fun fact: Did you know that people used to dodge BoxeR because BW was predominantly American/South American, and they thought he was a hacker, and from Japan, not Korea. He used to sit in public games for hours sometimes and wait for people.

I didn't know that, that's actually far more interesting!

Fun fact #2: He popularized the wall on Lost Temple, I learned it from sons[x] when I tried to PvT him, had a huge advantage, and couldn't figure out to kill the wall. sons[x] then told me (in toyland) that he learned it from BoxeR, and that BoxeR was a hacker regardless of his genius wall.
Edit: unsure if toyland or -=^un4^=-



actually it wasnt boxer, it was ssangjamg or something like that.

edit: Ssamjang

"SSamJang was one of the first "stars" of StarCraft. In ways, he was the first real media icon of StarCraft and appeared in commercials. For this, as well as his gaming skills, he was even envied by BoxeR who saw him as a source of inspiration.
Early in his career SSamJang used to play all races in tournaments but eventually just stuck to Terran.
He retired in 2004" (Liquipedia)
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
February 15 2012 23:18 GMT
#114
On February 16 2012 07:44 BearStorm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2012 11:32 Ideas wrote:
also kal has better shuttle/reaver micro than stork


The Red Shuttle! Kal is awesome.

No kal has better shuttle micro, stork has better reaver micro ^^ :D
Stork[gm]
InTheRainBOw
Profile Joined November 2010
Argentina27 Posts
February 16 2012 00:31 GMT
#115
IntoTheRainBOw FAN CLUB! <3
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
February 16 2012 00:37 GMT
#116
On February 15 2012 11:31 endy wrote:
When I see the latest Stork vs Flash, I don't find them that retarded.

Stork's reavers are a step above the rest, lol. It's not fair comparing anyone else to him.
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