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On August 31 2009 19:10 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2009 19:06 hifriend wrote:
While I don't appreciate cheating for obvious reasons, the behavior of people flaming those that are caught for or suspected of cheating in various threads often appear much more disgusting to me than the act of cheating in itself. Personally I don't really mind cheating in it's current form. And to be honest I'm almost certain most of us has experimented a little at some point in our bw carreer (hopefully not on a ladder or any other competetive environment though.)
Even if I come across a mh user every once in a while it's rare enough on iccup that I don't really see any point in wasting the energy that I notice many tlers are putting into raging over those incidents. Not the end of the world. Except some people.. really.. have never tried hacking  . I'm a hack virgin! Sue me. And really, I could care less, but TL is the authority and they're the authority for a reason. Always kept a clean community and have always had a tightly run ship. I feel like to let hackers off the hook is to accept it as something that is ok and unstoppable. Clearly it will always exist in some form, but it should always be punished. I just want to reiterate, I don't hate any hacker... if I met someone from the internet in real life, im not gonna like cold shoulder them.. it IS just a game. That being said.. this is the forum.. you know.. dedicated to that game -_-;;;;;;
thats true
what if someone named spoofed you?
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On August 31 2009 19:16 JohnColtrane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2009 19:10 Vasoline73 wrote:On August 31 2009 19:06 hifriend wrote:
While I don't appreciate cheating for obvious reasons, the behavior of people flaming those that are caught for or suspected of cheating in various threads often appear much more disgusting to me than the act of cheating in itself. Personally I don't really mind cheating in it's current form. And to be honest I'm almost certain most of us has experimented a little at some point in our bw carreer (hopefully not on a ladder or any other competetive environment though.)
Even if I come across a mh user every once in a while it's rare enough on iccup that I don't really see any point in wasting the energy that I notice many tlers are putting into raging over those incidents. Not the end of the world. Except some people.. really.. have never tried hacking . I'm a hack virgin! Sue me. And really, I could care less, but TL is the authority and they're the authority for a reason. Always kept a clean community and have always had a tightly run ship. I feel like to let hackers off the hook is to accept it as something that is ok and unstoppable. Clearly it will always exist in some form, but it should always be punished. I just want to reiterate, I don't hate any hacker... if I met someone from the internet in real life, im not gonna like cold shoulder them.. it IS just a game. That being said.. this is the forum.. you know.. dedicated to that game -_-;;;;;; thats true what if someone named spoofed you?
Well most people should be able to separate in-game stuff as unimportant as opposed to irl. Then there are those that really get pissed and go HovZ on everybody's asses. 
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* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
really bad, only partly forgivable after a long period of time away from community (1year+?)
* Ladder abuse by free wins
Forgivable but definitely hard to respect someone who did this.
* Observer cheating
Even worse than maphacking imo, having an observer in game is a trust given by the other player and must under all circumstances be respected!
* Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
easily detected i guess, i'd probably forgive it but still think he's an idiot, but not a horrible person.
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i dont personally know the guy, but from what i've seen about clazz, he seems to be a nice guy. it's a shame that he hacked (in his own tourney).
i think the perma banned is justified and definitely sends a message to everyone else in the community: even forum veterans are not immune to these rules. if an admin (for some strange reason) was caught with hacking, he or she would be subject to the same rules (i would hope).
i'm worried that if clazz gets unbanned, then people might start using that as an excuse when they get caught hacking in the future ("clazz got unbanned, so i should be unbanned, too")
however, if there's enough heads put together to write an amendment to how TL deals with hackers, and the procedures after one returns from the ban are reasonable, then i wouldn't mind having clazz unbanned. until then, it should stay the way it is.
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Osaka27118 Posts
i dont think someone should be banned for eternity. sure cheating is immoral, but its just a game. most of the time nobody loses money out of this (unless its a big tourney or starleague, im not sure on the details just in general) and its not really that serious of an issue imo.
I think my free time is worth as much, if not more than money, so if I choose to spend my free time on this, and it is being impinged upon by hackers, then it is a problem.
On August 31 2009 17:45 XeliN wrote:
This is fundamentally a game, talk of permanent bans e.t.c seems ridiculous to be me and I don't like the way this seems to be equated with committing a crime. that said banning these people for a time from competative leagues or tournaments seems fine, but i would only think banning people from a community if they are known to repeatedly hack or show exceptionally bad attitude when found out
Communities have rules, or laws, that govern them., Breaking the rules is a "crime" (although not criminal in the traditional sense). Clazz valued his id on these forums, and valued who he was as part of the community. If we can agree that hacking needs to have a punishment, then what better way to punish than to take away something he liked? If TL doesn't take that role, then there is no punishment for his behaviour.
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I believe that all of those are pretty strong offenses, hacking possibly being the strongest and the usage of glitches the weakest. However, I personally believe that hacking and the likes would be all right on your own, or on a LAN with friends, as long as the other person would be fine with it and knew about it. I believe it should be punishable only when used in some kind of a competitive environment. However, I understand it is difficult to enforce this, and even hacking on somewhere like US East will hurt the people playing with you. There are cheat codes that you can play with in the single player mode, so there really is no good excuse.
My suggested punishments would be:
Hacking on ladder / tournament: Ban and having to wait until whatever time the TL had set, the TL system is fine. IMO Hacking for fun on like LAN to try it and such would be all right, but this is difficult to enforce. Then again, you can just melee and share vision, so it's pointless.
Ladder abuse: Well, it's different in combat's and stylish's cases. Stylish had given a lot to the community and seemed to think it was all right. Combat on the other hand abuses to hide the fact that in reality he sucks. In the case of abuse, I would let a minor offense fly one time, assuming they've contributed somehow, but in other case it'd be a ban, at least for a while.
Observer cheating: Really sucks and is lame. I'm not sure how I would punish this and how they can be caught. Ban from the tournament, possibly from all the future tournaments by that specific organizer, can work. Done repeatedly, you gain the image of an abuser and can't really do much. Also, banning 3rd party observers would be a good solution, but it obviously wouldn't be as much fun.
Using glitches: Can't really comment since I don't know the glitches well enough. Seems like the smallest offence and it's difficult to say if it was on purpose. It'd have to be repeated glitch abuse for them to be punished somehow, most likely a disqualification.
I believe that contributions matter, but only during the first time. If you are repeatedly caught, they don't matter anymore to me.
About forgiveness, I might forgive them after just one offense... but still with a reduced. It depends, maybe it'd be better to be consistant and give permabans to everyone, but some people really regret it and are truly sorry for what they've done, and I believe that these people should somehow be able to redeem themselves.
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Calgary25963 Posts
People should realize this isn't a deterant to stop cheaters. It's not our policy to try to rehabilitize these people. It's a simple case that cheaters in competitive games aren't welcome in this community whatsoever.
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Free wins are not as bad as the other methods in most cases, but in the case where they are used to establish a person in terms of giving advice to the community then it is probably as bad (because it undermines the reputation system some of us use to judge the quality of advice)
I'm for permaban on this, limited only by the thought that enough contributers got caught in one sweep to damage the site then you would have to think long and hard about what was worse for the community, a dilution of principles or a reduced feature set.
I think 'branding' hackers is as bad or perhaps even worse than ignoring them, as it raises the profile of hackers. You don't want people to be reading a thread and thinking wow theres a lot of hackers talking here, again I feel thats bad for the community.
People make mistakes, and grow up over time but I think TL's responsibility is to the community at large (particularly since a permaban is not in any way comparable to a justice system penalty such as prison). Perhaps this means that some people will miss out on the opportunity to rehabilitate in SC terms, but I think we can all live with that.
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On August 31 2009 17:56 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
This might sound kind of weird but honestly if someone is stupid enough to cheat today they are just going to get steam-rolled in SC2. Blizzard is very good at getting rid of cheats (take WoW for example) and this will be implemented to the fullest degree in SC2.
Look this is kind of unrelated, but WoW has an INCREDIBLE amount of hacks. Some that re-engineered the blink mechanic to teleport anywhere in the world at the input of a command. Some that let you walk through walls. Some that show you the position of every mob and player in the world on a nice little in-game map. And these are just the PUBLIC hacks! Hacking is rampant in WoW if you know where to look, mostly botting. And the punishments for first time offenses are usually only a few days ban. Blizzard wants your money. That and Blizzard's current way of banning hackers is awful. I won't go into it though. Do a bit of research on Warden and you'll see how shit it really is at catching hacks.
The community needs to take a hard stance against hackers, especially in low level play. Because these companies honestly couldn't care less. It might be embarrassing for them if they find "pro-players" cheated to win a prize or something that they sponsored. But low level play? I doubt it.
What kills me is people who cheat against friends. Ugh. No doubt everyone's had someone fuck them over IRL. It sucks. This is pretty much what Clazz did. Organize a community tournament, then cheat? I mean....what the fuck is that? Maybe map-hacking (or whatever he did) isn't perma-ban worthy on it's own. But fucking over people in a community for no reason, other than personal gain? That is ban worthy. Such a dick move that it makes me mad to think anyone would even consider doing it.
Cheating needs to be discouraged as much as possible. There's not much people can do about it, in most online games, other than ban them. Maybe when people are held more accountable for what they do online there might be less cheating.
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i don't believe in second chances, i believe in convincing apologies, which most hackers are unable to present, probably because they're not really sorry and only want to get out of trouble
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Osaka27118 Posts
Maybe when people are held more accountable for what they do online there might be less cheating.
Shades of HovZ vs Nextel or the Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back movie here I do agree, that being accountable for what you do online is a more and more important issue these days. With people putting so much more of "themselves" online, it is a greater investment. Using Clazz again as an example, this guy has met TLers irl. That is a significant investment imo.
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I wrote the following before I saw Chill's post, so still posting this might be useless. I'd like to ask some things, though. Why does an offense not immediatley related to a posters contributions invalidate any possible further contributions? And why aren't you deleting every single post made by that poster? What is the significant and rational difference between the posts before and after the offence?
Here what I wrote:
As this is about punishment, one should probably first think about what punishment achieves. The most common points are
- protection for the community
- basis for resocialization of the offender
- prevention of further offenses of the same kind by other members of the community
The last point doesn't seem to work anywhere, at all, so I won't mention it further.
For the first point one needs to specify the exact source from which the community needs/wants protection. Of course one could name the offender as the source and be done with it, but while this will certainly work, it generalizes everything to the disadvantage of the offender, and possibly the community. In the specific case of hackers/cheaters/abusers the members of the community need to be protected from being hurt (i.e. losing points and rank in the ladder, losing tournaments or even money). Now banning the offender permanently from the whole community will achieve the first point, the protection of the community, but it also makes the second point impossible, and it might hurt the community in other ways, it might for example lose an otherwise valuable contributor (or potentially valuable contributor).
The second point serves to prevent this, and it also makes a system of rules and punishments less totalitarian (or just less antiquated, in the extreme case even less barbaric), which should be a worthy goal. To allow for this point to be applied, the above mentioned punishment would need to be revised. Here an online community is restricted in its possibilites, its only practicable way seems to be banning the offender for a certain amount of time, and maybe marking the offender afterwards for everyone to see.
Here is where my suggestion comes in.
Distinguish a hacking/abusing offender from a contributory offender (i.e. someone who breaks forum rules, like posting extremely offensively, disrupting discussions etc.).
Why should a community hurt itself by (permanently) banning someone who contributes to it (or has the potential of doing so)?
If someone hacks/abuses, ban the account, or better, the ip, of the offender so that he cannot continue playing (for an appropriate amount of time), but can still contribute. That way you protect the community, but still make it possible for the offender to be productive and for the community to profit from that. In addition, or in case of repeated or more serious offences, a ban to forum accounts shorter than that of the playing accounts might be warranted, as well as informing everyone about the offences, either by making a special thread for it or by modifying the offender's accounts' icons or signatures.
So instead of indiscriminately exiling offenders, one would still treat them as part of the community. I know that it is easy for an online community to just extract those parts that are or at least seem unwanted at the time, but that doesn't mean it is a good way to handle things. The above way is less absolute, and still manages to protect the community, while also making it possible to reintegrate offenders and thereby bringing an advantage to it.
And it still makes absolutely clear that hacking and abusing is in no way tolerated.
As for appropriate lengths of bans, it seems to me that ammounts like 1 month (free win abusing), 1 season (observer cheating, intentional glitch abusing), and 2 seasons (hacking) are enough in most cases, although more might be required in cases of repeated offences. The forum bans should accordingly be a fraction of this time, the marking of the offenders should be removed after all bans have expired.
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On August 31 2009 13:14 jtype wrote:
It seems like certain people here are assuming that most people play ladder matches "just for fun", which is certainly not the case for a lot of people. A ladder is, by it's very nature, competitive. Therefore, the outcome of each and every match is important to those who seek to better their position on it.
iCCup is, first and foremost, a ladder system. If hacking takes place in melee (non-ranked, non-tournament "just for fun" matches), then it is between the hacker and the opponent only. But when hacking takes place in any ladder or non-ranking tournament match, the punishment should be universal and severe. Why? Because in a competitive game, the thing that matters most is balance and a level playing field.
Hacking undermines the very nature of competitive play and therefore has no place in it.
This.
I find it pretty amazing that people in tl.net are actually defending hacker rights.
Permaban for any hacker, period. No ifs buts and "oh he did so much to community.." Good deeds do NOT cancel out bad deeds, regardless of what they taught you at bible school. Gtfo with your soft heart.
Hacking in a bnet pubbie? who cares, that place is as lawless as the D2 open battlenet. You can't expect new/casual players of a game to take hacking seriously. However, as soon as they step their foot into a competitive ladder system such as iccup, there should be no second chance.
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Not that I think that my opinion matters that much to most TL-ers. I will however throw a coin in the bucket.
What I think is when you get caught with your pants down (meaning you got caught hacking). The answer is plain and simple. BAN
Ladder abuse/wintrading. BAN for a period of time, or even just a ladder reset might suffice.
Observer cheating, yeah well. Do not allow observers if you think there might be a chance someone will cheat behind your back. Your own responsibility and therefor you shouldn't be banned for it.
Illegal game commands/switches, yeah well it is in the game, just a ladder penalty. e.g. if the person won a ladder game with it, revoke his points he gained with the illegal command.
I remember back in the day when Tillerman CC-slided and got banned from the i2e2? tournament. Which was funny but sour as well.
About forgiveness, no forgiveness when it comes to hacking. None what so ever. Getting an advantage when using a 3rd party program is in my world unforgiveable.
Getting an advantage when using the gameengine, meh, than the game should be properly updated so it can't be used anymore. But that ofcourse is my humble opinion.
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First offense - 90 days ban.
Second offense - Permanent ban.
Regarding clazziquai's case: I don't personally know him, but it appears he is a great community member and genuinely cool dude. TL wants to have such people around. As long as a guy has something special to contribute, I couldn't care less if he made the mistake of cheating once. We gain more from having a good member around than we lose from the moral dilemma of said member being an ex-cheater. I'm quite sure that clazz loves the game and there is a good chance he won't ever touch any hacks again. Punish him with a 90 day temp ban, then let him return. If he cheats again, so what, just perma ban him then with no questions asked.
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All hacking or illegal nonesense, as far as I concerned, should either stay on East or not be used at all. If you're caught pulling this crap in Iccup or in community tournaments, instaban, but if you're fucking with some BGH kids then a lesser punishment may be in order. (Although if you lose, that says something about you LOL)
Personally I think the permaban is fair. While clazz was a great contributer to the community, this hacking incident renders his entire history suspect. I disagree that he should be IP banned, however-he should at least be able to work his way back, maybe make him start over as a new account and brand him for 3 months like was done with DV and LR when they lost in the TL-GG match.
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MH is like doping, u get better even after u stopped using, compered to regular guy. I mean, playing with MH, u get ur timing right, know when mutas r coming, get canons in time etc. Get to play better players then u should = better practice, get better. So its really unfair later on.
*Speculation*, would Testie be as good as he was without hacking ? Imho not.
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map hacking is the worst followed by observer cheating, these use things that are not features of the game, things that are impossible without the hack or player telling you things and they directly effect the opponent, glitching is bad but there is a bit of skill or knowledge involved in it so i dont mind if its on bnet, abusing is just retarded but i dont care about it considering nobody gets away with it and actually gets into the higher ranks
as for the punishments, guess it depends on the person and what their intentions are, if a friend jokingly used a hack in a private game and was obvious about it and just fucking around i guess i would let it slide(if it continued though then its a problem fuck that)any ladder or tournament fuck no ban for life
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On August 31 2009 12:30 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2009 12:29 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
99% of all proven hackers have hacked after they got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes. good job making up some statistic to try to validate your opinion
Almost every proven hacker has hacked after he got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes.
fixed.
Read the list. When there are known names they've been at least suspicious or proven to have hacked before. See Zarrr, Vasilisk etc
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* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Instant permaban. There's no reason to try and use these 3rd party programs in ladder or anywhere else. If you want to try a hack, do it with a friend on LAN.
* Ladder abuse by free wins
Well, I think there's only so far you can go with this, and if it doesn't harm anyone else, I don't see a reason to punish this person. If you play real players with your abused ranks, you will get destroyed, and you'll still be a bad player until you stop abusing. The only person this hurts is the abuser, because they actually think they are good (i.e. combat-ex).
* Observer cheating
Pretty much the same as maphack, but harder to catch since people could be talking on vent/TS. I know ghosting is a bannable offense on most CS/CSS servers, so this needs to be treated in the same manner. Ban both the ghoster/ghostee if you can determine who they are, especially if it's being done in a tournament.
* Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Not sure what these are, but I would go glitch by glitch and determine if it's bannable or not. If they are banned in tournaments they should be banned in ladder too imo.
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EPT
