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On August 31 2009 22:20 WeSt wrote:
Ban someone from this website because he hacked in Starcraft? That's just dumb in my opinion. TL.net is much more than a simple Starcraft discussion board, and I'm kind of disapointed on some admin's decisions regarding this hacking wave.
TL.net has some features most of the gaming websites don't, has some mature people with good discussions, that's why I choose these forums. Banning people because they hacked is imature and doesn't even make sense. If they hacked they should be banned from iccup, they violated it's rules not TL's.
He did hack in a community event, so your argument about only being banned from iccup is void. Also, are you always indifferent to how people act when you're not around. Your actions will always be reflected in how people see you, it doesn't matter where you do them.
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- Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
People change over time, some will grow mature, some not. If caught the first time hack, a ban of at least 1 year, rather more, would be in place. And by ban I mean everywhere, TL, Iccup, every other fansite and every tournament. If caught hacking a second time after that, permaban from everything.
- Ladder abuse by free wins
Just the same as hacking in my opinion. I can see why people would see it differently, but the goal and result is the same as above, and should be punished accordingly.
An observer telling one of the players whats going on? Well, you don't have observers in ladder/tournament matches. In some random play/obs game, it doesn't really matter, in an imporant match, it would be the same as hacking.
- Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
This is hard to really punish, because different tournaments have different rules, e.g. Storks observer over turret at WCG. The responsibility here lies in the admins of the ladder/tournament to decide how they want to punish offenders.
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Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing.
If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
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is awesome32278 Posts
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Doso pretty much ended this thread like 5 pages ago, but I want to reiterate what he said here so I can comment on it:
1. Ban, 2 Years.
2. 3-6 Penalty Points. Ban 4 weeks to 3 months
3. Observer cheating: see 1.
4. Depends on the glitch. Usally freewin for the opponent, can be awarded with further penalties.
4 is the only one that could potentially be accidental; there is also the possibility of rule confusion between different tournaments. Thus, it gets the least penalty.
2 is stupid, but ultimately doesn't directly take points from someone else. Besides, the only reason to do that is to brag about your rank; being banned for abusing means no one will ever care about your rank again.
1 and 3 are the same thing, and it's intolerable. Hacking is the opposite of everything competitive gaming stands for. The only thing to be careful of here is someone getting set up (say on shared iCCup account, or having hacker put the hacks on the users machine in such a way he'll get caught without knowing he has hacks); that really shouldn't happen if the user is being a smart netizen, but it can make things slightly less cut and dry.
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I 100% support the banning of clazzi, cheating in a tournament he was running is just... beyond words.
The best strategy imo would be to try and synchronize bans in the foreigner community. So, not only does the hacker get banned from iCCup, but they're effectively exiled from the english speaking starcraft world. Any StarCraft site that does not do this is almost condoning cheating with their silence.
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Belgium9950 Posts
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing.
If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
I agree.
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On September 01 2009 00:44 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing.
If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better. I agree.
I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
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The only light offense to me is observer "cheating" in a non-rated, non-tourney game, friendly game. For example, someone may observe a game to coach the weaker player & talk to them during the game. This could be known to opponent from the start, but unclear just from watching the rep.
For all other cases I would agree with the people arguing for a 1 (or 2) year ban for first time cheaters, and permanent bans for repeat offenders. No excuses or differential treatment.
+ Show Spoiler +Slightly off topic, but I feel there is no need to feel bad about banning people. In fact, you could say they banned themselves when they decided to cheat.
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On September 01 2009 00:46 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 00:44 RaGe wrote:On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing.
If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better. I agree. I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
Relax. He is not gonna be banned forever and we all know it. If he doesn't hack in a year at the most he will be allowed to post again. In a couple more years his name will be cleared (mostly).
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On September 01 2009 00:54 sashkata wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 00:46 Zoler wrote:On September 01 2009 00:44 RaGe wrote:On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing.
If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better. I agree. I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up! Relax. He is not gonna be banned forever and we all know it. If he doesn't hack in a year at the most he will be allowed to post again. In a couple more years his name will be cleared (mostly).
I agree on that kind of punishment.
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This is the biggest issue I've seen in TL.net. (and biggest drama bomb as well)
here is a message to Clazz himself.
Honestly, I like Clazz and all. I mean to tell you honestly, I'd say that he is a very big contributor to TL and the permaban is really harsh and to the amount of time and effort contributing to the community.. It's just that cheating in his own tournament.. Man, what are you trying to prove there? I mean we would still like you, <3 your C-Walks and your pictures in touring in the USA. You don't need to prove that your the best in Starcraft just to be appreciated yo. We love you too much to care for what skill you have, It doesn't prove anything from your character. But now that they caught you for what you've done. It's really hell to get redemption back. For me, your still the man just that you ain't trustworthy as of the moment. 
To the TL.net staff,
Yes, the people here are awesome and you regulate this site like it depends on your life, which makes this site the heart of eSports. It's really hard for you guys to perma-ban a contributing member to society, I mean it's like shooting your favorite dog in the head because of biting or chewing on your favorite shoes. But somehow, you guys know there are second chances. Maybe, just maybe there is still hope to this kid. He might change for the better in a little while, then learn that in life you can't get ahead because of cheating/stealing.
But for the mean time just think about it, read his post, if he really deserves a second chance or not. It really depends if your going to be very strict with the rules or provide second chances.
Btw, I found out that Scorpion guy (the dude that made a wall of text on how destroyed clans and hacking shit in bnet, had his second chance) why not clazz yo! :p
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On September 01 2009 00:46 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 00:44 RaGe wrote:On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing.
If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better. I agree. I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
There is a pretty big difference between a real life crime and the internet.
I mean look at it this way. If a Baseball player is caught using illegal substances that gave him an unfair advantage over other players. Should he only be temp banned for 60 days and then allowed to play with no other penalties? What is to stop him from doing it again? That is why you see most players "retire" or basically never rejoin the sport. There IS no going back once you are caught. You can't change your name/appearance to get back into the sport. Now, you can be forgiven of such crimes but the public usually takes a long time to forgive and forget.
It's the same with StarCraft except people use the "internet" factor of: "Oh. I'll just change my name and never change my ways. Nobody will ever find out and I can keep hacking." which is why you still see KNOWN hackers STILL hacking.
They think they won't get caught again because they are on a smurf. They KNOW better but they STILL think they can get away with it. You HAVE to be 100% strict or people will just keep doing it and this enables others to think: "Oh wow. This guy was caught hacking and was only banned for 30 days. That's not so bad. I can deal with that. Let me hack too and boast to all my friends how good I am."
No Tolerance. Period. It's the only way to stop hacking and prevent other weak willed souls from "following the crowd." Hackers can be forgiven over time. Look at Testie. He has done a great job of redeeming himself and providing the community with respectable posts. It took time, but it happened. Look at KawaiiRice. Last year EVERYBODY hated him for what he did but now he's an acceptable poster again. Like I said. The public will eventually forgive and forget but only if said hacker starts working toward redeeming himself.
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"Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
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On September 01 2009 01:24 Saracen wrote:
"Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
Yes, I agree and the moral of the story here is:
+ Show Spoiler +"The BanHammer sees everything"
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On September 01 2009 01:24 Saracen wrote:
"Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
Uhh. Really? Nobody knows about Zero Tolerance? Not to mention, every single tournament EVER created on any respectable site has never said: "Hacking Allowed." In fact, they post almost the same ruleset as iccup and say: "Anybody caught will be removed from the tournament." Now you're not banned from anything other then that tournament but believe me, people take notice and will begin to think differently of you and/or not invite you to any more tournaments.
On top of that, why would ANYBODY just assume hacking is okay in the first place? Honestly? Is cheating in real life acceptable? Granted some people get away with it for awhile but guess what. In the end. They get caught. This is the same situation. This site has always been very negative to hacking/abusing of any kind. Just because you "didn't know" won't save you. Not even in a court of law. It is up to the person to find out and understand the rules of the system said person is going to take part in. Not act the fool and try to be ignorant.
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On September 01 2009 01:32 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 01:24 Saracen wrote:
"Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well. Uhh. Really? Nobody knows about Zero Tolerance? Not to mention, every single tournament EVER created on any respectable site has never said: "Hacking Allowed." In fact, they post almost the same ruleset as iccup and say: "Anybody caught will be removed from the tournament." Now you're not banned from anything other then that tournament but believe me, people take notice and will begin to think differently of you and/or not invite you to any more tournaments. Not to mention. Why would ANYBODY just assume hacking is okay in the first place? Honestly? Is cheating in real life acceptable? Granted some people get away with it for awhile but guess what. In the end. They get caught. This is the same situation. This site has always been very negative to hacking/abusing of any kind. Just because you "didn't know" won't save you. Not even in a court of law. It is up to the person to find out and understand the rules of the system said person is going to take part in. Not act the fool and try to be ignorant.
I agree, but my point was TL-specific.
Also, to be honest, it's hard to see the "Zero Tolerance" in the page you linked for a casual peruse-r of the rules. I mean, if it's not bolded and in caps (or in some way made to stand out), people just aren't going to pay all too much attention to it - not that it's iCCup's fault - they have to lay down all of the rules in the rule page, not just hacking rules, ofc...
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Map hacking / program hacking - 10/10 (destroys other ppl's play!)
Ladder abuse by free wins - 5/10 (id ont give a damna actaully)
Observer cheating - 2/10 (whothehell falls for that?)
Using illegal in game glitches - 1/10 (ohm, which wasn't fair was patched, which remained is useable after me)
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It doesn't matter what type of cheating it is. Cheating is cheating. Ban them until they prove themselves worthy. If they are never deemed worthy and are still obnoxious shady shit piles, leave them at the gate.
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On September 01 2009 01:51 MYM.Testie wrote:
It doesn't matter what type of cheating it is. Cheating is cheating. Ban them until they prove themselves worthy. If they are never deemed worthy and are still obnoxious shady shit piles, leave them at the gate.
:D
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One year ban minimum for map hacking and allow them to redeem themselves, second offense permanent, no excuse after that.
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EPT
