Up front, so there is no misunderstanding, I am making this thread for my own interest. There is no official TL position here.
I'm just trying to gather my own thoughts on the issue, and thought I could find the tenor of the community.
To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Are they the same? Are they different?
What is the appropriate punishment for people caught of these offenses? Should they be different, or is cheating cheating, no matter the form?
TL is full of inconsistencies. Some people are banned for life, but make new accounts and come back. How do you feel about this. Should there be forgiveness? Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things? How would you like to see them dealt with?
I don't play often so I'm not qualified to distinguish between the different offenses. However, I do believe in second chances. I think those who are shown to have cheated repeatedly deserve a chance to explain themselves and reform their behavior, but if they continue to repeat their actions after making a public apology or saying they will quit cheating then banning them from forums/events/ladders etc doesn't seem unfair to me.
[EDIT]
I just noticed the automated ban list and saw why you posted this. I think contributions do count for *something* but if I was caught hacking/cheating I'd expect to be called up on it.
I believe the first 3 is the SAME, but the last one MIGHT be different. The first 3 the mindset of the player is to get "easy wins by cheating" thats the MINDSET. The illegal gaming glitch might be a result of not knowing its illegal and what not.
The punishments should NOT be based on what they did to cheat, BUT their mindset and not the sort of cheat they chose to use, because all in all its all the same.
I think that people are often times TEMPTED by doing such things just because they're told not to. And they do deserve some sort of ban. But it should NOT be permanent.
I think such offenses should be like 1st offense: 90 day ban 2nd offense: 1 year ban 3rd offense: permanent ban.
Ladder abuse only effects the cheater himself, not others. Illegal in-game glitches are easy to prove and easy to report. Observer cheating/Map hacking are very hard to proof and sometimes it's frustrating. When I heard about a iCCup hack being out, I started to doubt people. I think the punishment should be the same: Ban, but allowed to rejoin the community after some time. There should definitely be forgiveness.
as some one who has been perma-banned before for mouthing off and so graciously let onto this website again by the tl staff, i fully believe in 2nd chances as people can change.
in terms of hacking: testie is a pretty good example. hacked and slowly got respect back from the community.
as for my thoughts on cheating: it is all the same...no exceptions. I dont care if its a script, a friend is helping, etc. doesnt matter.
I agree with NeverGG here and also believe in second chances.... society and this world itself is flawed and everyone is bound to make mistakes one point or another. Of course, it is a repeated offense and goes for a third time without getting the message once or twice, then a proper action should take place. However, as I have learned as such, I will put my 2 cents here that whatever the case: "a sin is a sin no matter how big or small it is". So there shouldn't be levels and determination of how big or small this person or that person hacked, abused and etc but rather if the dude abused something minor twice and got caught twice compared to the person who map-hacked once and got caught once, the person who got caught twice bear more sins since he should have gotten the message once. That's my views but in reality, TL itself is a strict and very moral site when it comes upon hackers, abusers and cheaters and these people who committed the sins should realize that to begin with....
I think that all parts should be taken into account. So a great contributer could be cut some slack, while a hacking newbie should be out of the door immidiatley.
I guess hacking in any form is the worst you can get, with ladder abuse a good second. The other two don't seem to be offenses on the same level to me. So imho perm ban for hackers, 90 day ban for ladder abusers, 2 day or 1 week bans for minor offenses, all scaling up after multiple offenses.
I think it's fair to be hardline about this, since honest play is the backbone of any community. On the other hand, people who already are part of said backbone are a difficult case that I think should be handled more according to the situation.
Map hacking is the worst. It wastes the time of the person you are playing with, which is totally selfish and unacceptable.
Illegal glitches is second worst. It also wastes your opponents time, but at least there's no trickery. It's obvious.
Ladder abuse is the least concerning. It's easy to catch, it doesn't waste players time (though it does waste admin's time) and though it's still awful and annoying, it's not as bad at the other two.
I don't know what observer cheating is. Whispering hints to a player? That's retarded and annoying, and probably on the same level as map hack.
I think the Map hacking / program hacking and Using illegal in game glitches > Ladder Abuse and Observer cheating, just because if the player doesn't have the adequate skill to handle players of their rank caliber then those two things aren't as critical, you can see someones base and react, but if your macro and micro is already lower than that of your opponent then bam, you lost. Offense wise, I think the mods and admins on TL have their system and rules there for a reason, and trying to change that wouldn't make too much sense. I'll use a bad analogy, if you do drugs say marijuana or cocaine, whose to say you'll only do those 2 drugs? Obviously if you've done one then heck you can do the others. In the same sense, if you Ob hack or Ladder abuse, they're taken with the same result - ban. So as long as the mindset to do any of these things show up then the punishment should be the same. As for the the idea of forgiveness, if people can prove their legitimacy and separation from the hacking scene and image, then sure why not let them back(clazz seemed like such a nice guy, he admitted to his mistakes - why not give him another chance?) But anyways this was way too long and probably has some contradictions, I'm sorta just speaking my mind atm.
personally i think that any punishment is legitimate for a cheater/hacker who is caught, if you break the rules you're asking for trouble and nothing, then, is unwarranted.
people do change, and perhaps those who hacked in the past will mature; but returning to the community should be earned and not assured by a 90 day ban as opposed to a permaban (that may or may not be lifted later).
i would rate 1 and 3 as worst, 2 doesn't really hurt anybody but is the most pathetic, and 4 could possibly be an accident (though im not sure exactly what #4 is? just an illegal glitch, like flying templar or something?)
I get very confused myself when it comes to these things.
Map hacking/program hacking/disc hacking are ridiculous and really show intent when they happen in ladder or tournament games. Similarly, ghosting is really disgusting when it happens in tournament/league games. These offenses seem grave and should be punished with long breaks.
Ladder abuse is frankly irrelevant because iCCup will just take away an abuser's stats, and with them, his credibility, so the harm is minimized.
Anything that happens on Battle.net or in casual/social games, while despicable, should not itself matter (except to keep such social hackers away from anything legitimate). However, the people who get kicks from that nonsense happen to be quick to flame and slow to contribute or be respectful and literate when it comes to TL serious business.
Though I do forgot to mention that when it all comes down to, second chances (and even third) usually happen upon special occasions and once you absolutely know and trust the person won't do it again (despite the fact he may in the future). All accounts should be considered and all, but one thing is for sure, in a democratic (or even absolute monarchy to some extent) point of view, if the mass public and the majority all says the same thing (regarding let's give this guy a second chance), then I think that itself is a good enough reason to overlook the fellow. Afterall, the real power in any country, community, and parties, is the voices of the people. Without the voices of the people, countries, communities, government cannot survive for long.
On August 31 2009 11:44 QuickStriker wrote: All accounts should be considered and all, but one thing is for sure, in a democratic (or even absolute monarchy to some extent) point of view, if the mass public and the majority all says the same thing (regarding let's give this guy a second chance), then I think that itself is a good enough reason to overlook the fellow. Afterall, the real power in any country, community, and parties, is the voices of the people. Without the voices of the people, countries, communities, government cannot survive for long.
I'm not sure I agree with "overlooking" but I do agree that public sentiment should be a barometer for how these things are dealt with. It is hard to deal with someone who is a good player, gets caught hacking, gets banned from TL, but then makes a new account 6 months later and is back.
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote: Up front, so there is no misunderstanding, I am making this thread for my own interest. There is no official TL position here.
I'm just trying to gather my own thoughts on the issue, and thought I could find the tenor of the community.
To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Are they the same? Are they different?
What is the appropriate punishment for people caught of these offenses? Should they be different, or is cheating cheating, no matter the form?
TL is full of inconsistencies. Some people are banned for life, but make new accounts and come back. How do you feel about this. Should there be forgiveness? Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things? How would you like to see them dealt with?
Before I rank them I think it is important to point out that (in my opinion) the severity of each of these cases changes based on the situation. As a very light example, observer cheating in a play/obs game on US West isn't a big deal compared to observer cheating in a clanwar or a tournament. In the same way, plain free-winning isn't as big of a deal as if it were to take place during something like the TSL ladder prelims.
I'll rank them by how severe I think they are in a tournament setting. Like I said this would be something like TSL or Valor ladder preliminary qualifiers.
[*]Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc) [*]Observer cheating [*]Ladder abuse by free wins [*]Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in tournaments, etc)
I consider observer cheating and map hacking to be pretty much the same thing. For the most part, you get the same effect out of it.
Ladder abuse in an open ladder qualifier (where like the top 32 move on to group/bracket play) is next in my opinion because if you need to freewin your way into the next step of the tournament you probably wont make it too far. In addition, you are not only cheating yourself, but you are cheating someone else out of a spot in that next round.
The illegal game glitches are last in my opinion, however, they are not far from the other forms of abuse/cheating. While I believe one is slightly more or less severe than another, I feel they should be punished equally.
Finally, I believe that second chances should be given out. I am not exactly sure when though. I can say that I do not agree with a set rule on when people should be given the second chance. I feel that the player's history and the magnitude of the offense should both be taken into consideration.
I've played in practically every post-gamei ladder (some with anti-hack, some without), as well as a ton of clan leagues and stuff, so I've seen a ton of cheating.
The first and third offenses are the worst. The purpose of committing those acts is to gain an edge on your opponent who is potentially playing by the rules. This cannot be tolerated if the game is to have any integrity whatsoever. I believe a second chance should be given to these people, but only after a pretty long period of exile (a year would be a good start). There is another form of cheating that should get lumped in here, and that's account sharing. It was a fairly common practice in clan leagues for people to have someone else (presumably of higher skill) to play on their account in order to win CL games. Unfortunately, no one in the lower clan league divisions is likely to ever get caught for this, since hotkey checking isn't fun work.
I don't really know how to treat the freewin people. On the one hand, it is probably not as bad as using an in-game cheat or participating in observer collusion. What I just can't wrap my head around is WHY anyone would want to do it. It seems to be just a cry for attention (look at my shiny C+ rank and ignore the fact that all my games are 2:15 long!). From that perspective, I can't see how these offenders would have anything positive to offer to a public forum like this, since they are pretty egotistical. This goes for those people who play nothing but D/D- players in order to get a nice record, as well. I really can't affix a penalty to this one, but they are putting themselves at the mercy of the court when they do the crime, so whatever you choose is fair.
The glitch thing is a tough call, since you don't really know whether or not it's malicious. I suspect most people don't read the rules of a ladder/tournament before playing in it. They should still be held liable for what they do, but the first offense should be a light sentence (say, a month) just in case it wasn't intentional.
Everyone deserves a second chance, but the game is pointless unless cheating is dealt with harshly. I have no comment on how to deal with people who contribute heavily to the community and get caught. Let's just say I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to make that decision.
Honestly while reading those i can't say how i would rate them, considering i see them as all about the same, although that can differ depending on the situation. However finding out that you banned clazz and that other guy EDIT: Lol i thought he had a 3k post count, random 3 post noobie should be banned for hacking obviously. (and subsequently realizing that they were hackers 2 seconds later) made me really angry. I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
I don't think you can arbitrarily rate those relative to one another free of context. For example, observer cheating in a friendly clan war vs observer cheating in the finals of a $1,000 prize tournament. I think it should be judged case by case.
I'm all about reformation and second chances, but you have to be willing to draw a line at some point with serial offenders (like Testie or LastShadow) and say that's it, you're done, get out.
On August 31 2009 12:01 Louder wrote: I don't think you can arbitrarily rate those relative to one another free of context. For example, observer cheating in a friendly clan war vs observer cheating in the finals of a $1,000 prize tournament. I think it should be judged case by case.
I'm all about reformation and second chances, but you have to be willing to draw a line at some point with serial offenders (like Testie or LastShadow) and say that's it, you're done, get out.
I think observer cheating should be like a 3 day ban, because honestly, who are you hurting in an obs game? Nobody. No points lost, but still, that's not an excuse, and it does get people frustrated, so I will say 3 day ban.
I think glitching and hacking should be perma ban forever and ever. On BW and TL/GG net. Because IMO they already know whats going to happen if they do it, and if they still decide too that means they really don't care and would do it again. I am very dissapointed Clazzi chose to hack, and I probably won't talk to him for a while, but I would somehow manage too.. He hacked in his own tourneys.. that's about as low as you get so I would really say perma ban. ( sorry for addressing hacking more the glitching ^^ )
Abuse imo should be a 90 day ban from TL.net and BW, because really, who is it hurting? Only the individual.
On August 31 2009 11:42 ryuu_ wrote: (clazz seemed like such a nice guy, he admitted to his mistakes - why not give him another chance?)
Do you think he would of admitted those mistakes if he wasn't caught? He would of called you a retarded fuck and never talked to you again.
Cheating is cheating. zero tolerance. Clazz is a good kid, but it is clear that not only was he cheating, but cheating in a community tournament too. Maybe we should have bigger bans than 90 days? 1,2 years?
Not all map glitches are the same, if someone uses observer over turrets, who really cares 95% of the time? Same with plague on interceptors. Flying templar/drones are slightly different bugs, and many people don't even realize that the first 2 are frequently banned in tournies.
It should probably be handled on a case by case basis for that, and it's pretty rare that it ever comes up in a game where it changes the course. Observer cheating is really bothersome because it's 2 people breaching trust rather than just one. However, most of them should likely be handled on a case by case basis regardless.
I think hacking and observer cheating are by far the worst possible offenses in competitive play. Not following the rules is the same: you have to know the rules to play... that simple -Abusing for laddering is stupid and doesn't bother me at all. the only one you can really fool is you.
Obviously the question is how to handle malicious intent in gaming. obviously there must be consequences. Severe consequences. I'm not saying lifelong ban from everything Starcraft, but I think there needs to be a way of identifying ex cheaters, like a red strikethrough on their name or something. I believe we have a really good community here; I think even someone who has cheated and has this mark could eventually regain some respect, however I think this is the best possible way to punish these people.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
But by not banning him, doesn't that send the message that we don't support a fair play environment? Doesn't his ban for hacking on iccup taint the contributions he does here, like his tournaments etc? We are a community that uses several different websites as a whole, I don't think you are a different person depending on which site you transgress on. Obviously there are different levels of cooperation between sites though.
Excluding all situational variables: 1. Maphacking (Most effortless of all ways to rob a hard worker of points) 2. Observer cheating (generally functions as a lesser map hack) 3. In game glitches (Can be accidental, but ultimately the same consequences as the others) 4. Ladder abuse (Easy to catch, and easy to avoid)
As for cases like Clazz, I guess they should be banned, as I see no other way to ensure TL's principles even if they were really good people
This is a home to top broodwar players. When someone is banned from this site for hacking it isn't for our (staff) benefit. Beyond the "moral compass" argument, we couldn't give a fuck. It's for the justice that legit players deserve. Think of how often someone posts a thread saying "DID THIS GUY HACK???" What can you do? Get your win back? Is that justice? I think we have a responsibility to make it so abhorrently unacceptable to hack that you get what you deserve no matter who you are or what you contribute. Is that fair? Maybe not, but neither is cheating.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
Contributing does not make you immune to punishment. Hacking is literally the worst thing you can do in this community. If i raped and killed you (kinky right?) would it be ok cause i volunteer in some local charity?
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
But by not banning him, doesn't that send the message that we don't support a fair play environment? Doesn't his ban for hacking on iccup taint the contributions he does here, like his tournaments etc? We are a community that uses several different websites as a whole, I don't think you are a different person depending on which site you transgress on. Obviously there are different levels of cooperation between sites though.
I completely agree.
If it was non-community setting he can do whatever he wants imo, but breaking the rules in community tournament is similar to breaking the rules on the forums.
i agree with banning cheaters, but I also think it should be timed, not perm banned (based on # of offences, like others said).
Context is also important. Cheating on a ladder/in a tournament with people playing competitively should be much harsher then someone obs cheating in a random ums. i think 3 month ban in appropriate for the first offence cheating in a ladder/tournament. If they do it again in a ladder or tournament after that, perm ban.
As for random one off games where its just friends playing or custom games that dont really count for anything, its hard to say. I'd say no punishment until proven in a tournament game but i dont really know :o.
One things for sure, life bans on the first offense would be way to harsh. When i was like 15 i hacked for a while in sc after i heard it was possible, hell im sure a lot of community members here have done the same when they were younger (willing to admit it or not). If i was life banned from everything starcraft after that, it woulda been pretty harsh...
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
Agree. I really like clazz but just hacking on iccup in games and hacking in a community tournament are totally different things. A full ban seems to be harsh though, 90 days is really a long time.
Well, from my perspective, I've always believed in second chances. People tend to do stupid things that they end up regretting later on. Michael Vick for example took a lot of shit from basically everyone, but is still being given a second chance because well it seems as if he was truly remorseful for what he did wrong.
In the heat of the moment, things happen, people do stupid shit. For all I know, some previously known hackers are still around in the TL community. If people are willing enough to man up and say "Yeah, I fucked up. I'll serve my time and come back clean on a fresh slate", I firmly believe that they should be given a second chance.
As for abuse, I believe everything should be judged from case to case. The severity of abuse differs in each case, as each situation is different. In game glitches I'd rate as the least severe because well at times, people are unaware of whats allowed, whats not allowed, etc. Ladder abuse is just lame, but not really harmful. If they really wanna spend that time abusing their way to the top, let them be. Doesn't help or improve their overall skill level whatsoever. Program hacking and Observer cheating on the other hand are quite harmful and I'd rate them as probably the top offenses.
But once again, I do think that second chances should be given. Their reps are already trashed as is, and only time will help. It'll take lots of effort from them to re-establish their credibility. If they're willing to reform and show remorse for what they've done, I still think they should be given a second chance after they've served their time. Their reps won't be mended immediately, but rather over time. If they're willing to spend the time to rebuild and reestablish any credibility, then they should be given a second chance.
Repeat offenders should just be disregarded and well thrown into the Automated Ban List. Don't wanna reform and change? Then get the fuck out.
For reference i feel if someone has been banned for hacking they should have to work their way back in after a long period away and donate something time, money etc (community service ho ho!).
On August 31 2009 12:19 Kennigit wrote: For reference i feel if someone has been banned for hacking they should have to work their way back in after a long period away and donate something time, money etc (community service ho ho!).
Lmao, lets make him read out a essay of how hacking hurts the e-sports community and stream it?
On August 31 2009 12:12 Kennigit wrote: This is a home to top broodwar players. When someone is banned from this site for hacking it isn't for our (staff) benefit. Beyond the "moral compass" argument, we couldn't give a fuck. It's for the justice that legit players deserve. Think of how often someone posts a thread saying "DID THIS GUY HACK???" What can you do? Get your win back? Is that justice? I think we have a responsibility to make it so abhorrently unacceptable to hack that you get what you deserve no matter who you are or what you contribute. Is that fair? Maybe not, but neither is cheating.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
Contributing does not make you immune to punishment. Hacking is literally the worst thing you can do in this community. If i raped and killed you (kinky right?) would it be ok cause i volunteer in some local charity?
Clazz has been around here for a couple years and helped to organize several tournaments (admittedly he hacked in one of them, although i don't know if that was the time he was caught hacking in that two day period or if there were others) but honestly i think 30 or 90 day would suffice here, he's a really valuable community member. To use your own analogy, if you killed me and then, and ONLY then sexed up my dead corpse, (because dead people don't say no), you would most likely not recieve the "death penalty" (perma ban) but instead prison time. Admittedly quite a bit of prison time, but in the light of your donation to charity, i'm pretty sure it would be in countable years (30-50? I don't know how long people are sentenced). I'm sorry if i'm not getting my point across perfectly, but i guess i just have a moral objection to this (banning clazz) at a really deep level.
On August 31 2009 12:19 Kennigit wrote: For reference i feel if someone has been banned for hacking they should have to work their way back in after a long period away and donate something time, money etc (community service ho ho!).
And in regards to the OP: all of them are cheating. All of them should be punishable as such.
oh, and
Should there be forgiveness?
always. eventually.
Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things?
Generally I say yes, because breaking the rules on the forum generally isn't so black and white. But cheating is cheating. What he does outside of it is irrelevant, imo.
How would you like to see them dealt with?
elongated humiliation from the community. it will better them as a person. and it would be unpleasant.
On August 31 2009 12:19 Kennigit wrote: For reference i feel if someone has been banned for hacking they should have to work their way back in after a long period away and donate something time, money etc (community service ho ho!).
Lmao, lets make him read out a essay of how hacking hurts the e-sports community and stream it?
On August 31 2009 12:12 Kennigit wrote: This is a home to top broodwar players. When someone is banned from this site for hacking it isn't for our (staff) benefit. Beyond the "moral compass" argument, we couldn't give a fuck. It's for the justice that legit players deserve. Think of how often someone posts a thread saying "DID THIS GUY HACK???" What can you do? Get your win back? Is that justice? I think we have a responsibility to make it so abhorrently unacceptable to hack that you get what you deserve no matter who you are or what you contribute. Is that fair? Maybe not, but neither is cheating.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
Contributing does not make you immune to punishment. Hacking is literally the worst thing you can do in this community. If i raped and killed you (kinky right?) would it be ok cause i volunteer in some local charity?
Clazz has been around here for a couple years and helped to organize several tournaments (admittedly he hacked in one of them, although i don't know if that was the time he was caught hacking in that two day period or if there were others) but honestly i think 30 or 90 day would suffice here, he's a really valuable community member. To use your own analogy, if you killed me and then, and ONLY then sexed up my dead corpse, (because dead people don't say no), you would most likely not recieve the "death penalty" (perma ban) but instead prison time. Admittedly quite a bit of prison time, but in the light of your donation to charity, i'm pretty sure it would be in countable years (30-50? I don't know how long people are sentenced). I'm sorry if i'm not getting my point across perfectly, but i guess i just have a moral objection to this (banning clazz) at a really deep level.
Your argument is that someone's history should have an effect on the punishment they get...that is not how the justice system works lol.
I think there should be a designated icon for hackers/cheaters so that if they do come back, they will have to live with their actions and people will know who actually went out of their way to gain an advantage in a fucking game.
On August 31 2009 12:23 travis wrote: elongated humiliation from the community. it will better them as a person. and it would be unpleasant.
Omg. Yes. When cheaters become unbanned, instead of a probe/scv/whatever icon, they get cheater icon. Would have to be a hilarious and lame icon too. =D
I used to hack like crazy, but eventually I realized I would never get real good if all I cared about was winning my games, rather than improving from my losses.
Years and years and years ago, though. Before testie quit hacking!
I never hacked in a community type situation though... so I guess it isn't quite the same.
And yeah.. I think an icon to signify that someone was caught hacking or cheating is a pretty amusing idea.
My post isnt gonna be as big as everyone elses because in my opinion its a simple answer.
The first 3, pure bans, done. Its like cheating on an exam, its not right. If the games are friendly, I would be very frustrated, and would look down upon on the opponent as cheating in anything is dishonourable.
The last one.. a warning. if its in a major tournament like WCG then you should have read the rules before hand, but sometimes the units activate them because of the crap AI. so a warning is fine.
I believe in second chances, however the person being given a second chance should be extremely grateful and NEVER abuse again. Iv heard Testie used to hack, but now look where he is. He was offered a contract to come to Korea some time ago right?
99% of all proven hackers have hacked after they got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes.
On August 31 2009 12:29 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: 99% of all proven hackers have hacked after they got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes.
good job making up some statistic to try to validate your opinion
On August 31 2009 12:29 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: 99% of all proven hackers have hacked after they got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes.
Don't make up bullshit numbers please. Or at least a source.
I recommend that this cheater icon be a dunce cap, or that cheaters permanently get their name changed to something embarassing (Such as Combat-eX) also Kennigit, i'm aware that the justice system doesn't work that way. As i said, i'm having a bit of trouble expressing the way i feel on this, although i can clearly say that i wish that Clazziquai's ban would be reduced to 90 days (or maybe a 90 day ban, along with being forced to recreate his account?) However thats only an individual matter. As a whole i think that hacking should be a 90 day or perma-bannable offense based on personal contribution to the community. Repeated hacking should be an insta ggnore permaban.
how many of you maphacked in d2? I know I did it and to most it isnt a big deal. Obviously maphacking in bw is a bigger problem but to the casual player who knows? Hacking in my opinion in a tournament or cw is a much bigger offense and should be treated so compared to hacking in some random ass games (ladder included).
Id rate ladder abusing last unless you abused to get to a rank that was meaningful (in that it qualified you for some tournament or something)
considering the ranks are trivial its really irrelevant what rank you are.....not many are scratching top 500 on iccup and theres no final tournament or anything so I dont see what the big deal is.
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote: [*]Ladder abuse by free wins
Ladder abuse is a bit like lying on your CV/Resume to get a good job. Yeah, you can brag about your achievements, but anyone who knows you, or observes you, knows that you don't belong there.
The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
If so, I think it is a much greater transgression than if it was just for fun. If it was just for fun... he should be being made fun of for being pathetic. That's how an IRL community works so I don't see why it should be different here. It's not like he is new here, he kind of has a history. He isn't just "another player", he's clazziqual from tl.net
I would look at the severity of the offence... kinda like a crime. Haypro for instance used oblivion on one occasion... someone like dino has been hacking for years. Haypro would get like a 2 month ban, while dino would be exiled from any activity.
On August 31 2009 12:31 Sadist wrote: how many of you maphacked in d2? I know I did it and to most it isnt a big deal. Obviously maphacking in bw is a bigger problem but to the casual player who knows? Hacking in my opinion in a tournament or cw is a much bigger offense and should be treated so compared to hacking in some random ass games (ladder included).
Id rate ladder abusing last unless you abused to get to a rank that was meaningful (in that it qualified you for some tournament or something)
considering the ranks are trivial its really irrelevant what rank you are.....not many are scratching top 500 on iccup and theres no final tournament or anything so I dont see what the big deal is.
On August 31 2009 12:34 travis wrote: Was there money or anything on the line, here?
If so, I think it is a much greater transgression than if it was just for fun. If it was just for fun... he should be being made fun of for being pathetic. That's how an IRL community works so I don't see why it should be different here. It's not like he is new here, he kind of has a history. He isn't just "another player", he's clazziqual from tl.net
that is who we are talking about, right?
I do believe so.
I think the picture for a hacker should be Oscar the Grouch, on another topic.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
On August 31 2009 12:31 Sadist wrote: how many of you maphacked in d2? I know I did it and to most it isnt a big deal. Obviously maphacking in bw is a bigger problem but to the casual player who knows? Hacking in my opinion in a tournament or cw is a much bigger offense and should be treated so compared to hacking in some random ass games (ladder included).
Id rate ladder abusing last unless you abused to get to a rank that was meaningful (in that it qualified you for some tournament or something)
considering the ranks are trivial its really irrelevant what rank you are.....not many are scratching top 500 on iccup and theres no final tournament or anything so I dont see what the big deal is.
Maybe because it isn't harming anyone :|
hacking in random games isnt harming anyone either. Sure it can be an annoyance....but so can a person obviously not trying against you or doing all in shit.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
Idk I just play for fun and to learn how to be better at SC, hacking doesnt really helps and Ladder abuse to... But for me if u are caught hacking u should be banned permanent... its like stealing or idk its bad and if u did once what stop u to doing it again.
I think any pr oven hacker should be allowed to continue to post and visit just give them a big HACKER sign next to their name. When they prove themselves worthy then they may go through a voting process to get it removed.
I do not approve of hacking/cheating/abuse of any kind. If anyone "needed" to hack it would be me with 11 years of playing and still a solid 8 0 apm.
I really dislike dishonesty in a game Ive loved for years, let alone in any sport/game it just seems silly to me. But then agian I dont and never will hack.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Oh yeah I'm a total wuss, I'm really disappointed that clazz did this, but at the same time, from what I gather it wasn't just once, or a misunderstanding of some rule, or the accidental use of a glitch.
And people like last shadow continue to promise that they have given up hacking, and they continue getting caught, and those are the hackers that stick in the memory, perhaps in 5 years or so, maybe I think he could come back, but certainly for now its a case of indefinite time, and the only chance of parole as it where, is when the community at large decides that he has served his time, since as things go he has just beem ostracised from the biggest starcraft community in the world, not just TL, but GG, ICCUP and all the others, if he still has any love for the game, that's going to hurt.
On August 31 2009 12:40 FranzF1 wrote: Idk I just play for fun and to learn how to be better at SC, hacking doesnt really helps and Ladder abuse to... But for me if u are caught hacking u should be banned permanent... its like stealing or idk its bad and if u did once what stop u to doing it again.
What's to stop anyone from doing it, whenever they want? Banning them from the forums certainly doesn't.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
On August 31 2009 12:31 Sadist wrote: how many of you maphacked in d2? I know I did it and to most it isnt a big deal. Obviously maphacking in bw is a bigger problem but to the casual player who knows? Hacking in my opinion in a tournament or cw is a much bigger offense and should be treated so compared to hacking in some random ass games (ladder included).
Id rate ladder abusing last unless you abused to get to a rank that was meaningful (in that it qualified you for some tournament or something)
considering the ranks are trivial its really irrelevant what rank you are.....not many are scratching top 500 on iccup and theres no final tournament or anything so I dont see what the big deal is.
Maybe because it isn't harming anyone :|
hacking in random games isnt harming anyone either. Sure it can be an annoyance....but so can a person obviously not trying against you or doing all in shit.
Are you seriously comparing "hacking" to doing an all-in build? What the fuck are you talking about?
You must take a zero tolerance stance on this. The guy is a hack. I'll say it again, damn, the dude was hacking.
In a community where manners are pretty important i can't believe people are honestly trying to defend the people that despoil the game in the most hardcore ways possible.
Hackers loathe fair play. Why would you be fair to them?
If it is direct relation to Team Liquid the following actions should be taken, within reason:
* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
(Severe Offense, ban for life but revisit the case in the future)
* Ladder abuse by free wins
(Stupid Offense, ban for life and never let them back)
* Observer cheating
(See Ladder abuse by free wins, same scenerio)
* Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc) (Non-serious offense. People shouldn't be banned for this unless they keep doing it and keep getting caught for doing it repeatedly.)
I mean everyone's opinion will be different about all types of cheating mani. Some people treat hacking like murder (see other thread, lol). Personally having worked with WGT in the past when we were always hunting hackers, it becomes too much and you start to sympathize with these people who get banned for hacking. Some people are sincere and want to make a change, but most hackers are like druggies, they just lie to please you and get what they want. You (TL.net admins) should determine the severity of each case and take into consideration their activity and contributions to the TL the community.
On top of this you may want to obtain some sort of promise from the players who hacked that they will no longer cheat and give them their second chance, then once they fuck up again they're out. Didn't you guys do this for ... uh Kawaii?? Sorry thats the best example off the top of my head if it applies at all.
You may want to just do a 'ban for all cheating' method and then people who want to get unbanned need to speak with TL.net admins about that, and harp on smurfs (which is a bit much to do)
(I think it's silly for TL.net to ban people who hack though, as TL is not running the ICCUP ladder, just me though..)
Look at the shithole that is WCReplays.com. Hackers completely control the replay section and it's a fucking embarrassment. One hacker in particular called Tower-Craft has posted their since 2004 and the mods have not banned him because he hasn't "broken the forum rules". There should be repercussions for cheating in the community, and not being able to post on a forum and losing a letter next to your name is not even close to a punishment. Even the low tier leagues for War3 are filled with venthacking and maphack and it's sick and embarrassing, WCR and Blizzard set this precedent that hacking doesn't matter and that's just one more reason the game fucking sucks.
Oh no he hacked, 90 day ban and we can all be friends again. Lesson learned right?
On August 31 2009 12:40 FranzF1 wrote: Idk I just play for fun and to learn how to be better at SC, hacking doesnt really helps and Ladder abuse to... But for me if u are caught hacking u should be banned permanent... its like stealing or idk its bad and if u did once what stop u to doing it again.
What's to stop anyone from doing it, whenever they want? Banning them from the forums certainly doesn't.
Banning from the forums its just a punishment, like if u kill someone going to jail isnt going to stop u of killing someone else... its just a punishment for what u did (If he really liked this comunity and he wants to comeback he is going to realize that doing something like cheating isnt worth).
PS: sry for my analogy, first thing that came to my mind.. lol
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
Because they find it fun to win?
And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)
A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.
On August 31 2009 12:31 Sadist wrote: how many of you maphacked in d2? I know I did it and to most it isnt a big deal. Obviously maphacking in bw is a bigger problem but to the casual player who knows? Hacking in my opinion in a tournament or cw is a much bigger offense and should be treated so compared to hacking in some random ass games (ladder included).
Id rate ladder abusing last unless you abused to get to a rank that was meaningful (in that it qualified you for some tournament or something)
considering the ranks are trivial its really irrelevant what rank you are.....not many are scratching top 500 on iccup and theres no final tournament or anything so I dont see what the big deal is.
Maybe because it isn't harming anyone :|
hacking in random games isnt harming anyone either. Sure it can be an annoyance....but so can a person obviously not trying against you or doing all in shit.
Are you seriously comparing "hacking" to doing an all-in build? What the fuck are you talking about?
if the end result is making the game not fun for your opponent then yes they might as well be the same.
We arent talking about tournament play here.....we are talking about random fucking iccup games.
On August 31 2009 12:31 Sadist wrote: how many of you maphacked in d2? I know I did it and to most it isnt a big deal. Obviously maphacking in bw is a bigger problem but to the casual player who knows? Hacking in my opinion in a tournament or cw is a much bigger offense and should be treated so compared to hacking in some random ass games (ladder included).
Id rate ladder abusing last unless you abused to get to a rank that was meaningful (in that it qualified you for some tournament or something)
considering the ranks are trivial its really irrelevant what rank you are.....not many are scratching top 500 on iccup and theres no final tournament or anything so I dont see what the big deal is.
Maybe because it isn't harming anyone :|
hacking in random games isnt harming anyone either. Sure it can be an annoyance....but so can a person obviously not trying against you or doing all in shit.
Are you seriously comparing "hacking" to doing an all-in build? What the fuck are you talking about?
if the end result is making the game not fun for your opponent then yes they might as well be the same.
We arent talking about tournament play here.....we are talking about random fucking iccup games.
I am not trying to get in an argument with you here; but all-in builds are part of the game and hacking is not.
On August 31 2009 12:54 Kennigit wrote: Travis just stop...
stop what?
I was replying to the guy. Don't get all fussy just because we don't have the same stance on the issue. If I am doing something wrong in this thread tell me what it is and I will remedy it.
On August 31 2009 12:24 Masamune wrote: I think there should be a designated icon for hackers/cheaters so that if they do come back, they will have to live with their actions and people will know who actually went out of their way to gain an advantage in a fucking game.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
Because they find it fun to win?
And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)
A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.
i see what you're trying to say, that in random games the opponent of the hacker probably won't even know that their opponent is hacking,ignorance is bliss sort of thing. I don't agree with it though, hacking or having an advantage over your opponent in any way shouldn't be tolerated. it just ruins the integrity of the game plain and simple. plus it stunts the non-hacker from improving their game because they lose due to something inexplicable (opponent being able to see the entire map)
If we are certain the account/person cheated, then I believe it should be ban account the first time, IP/cd key ban the second time. That is how blizzard deals with cheaters online, and I see no problem with that. People will have to start paying money if they want to keep cheating.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
Because they find it fun to win?
And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)
A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.
Being hacked against ruins the game for me. Argument invalid.
I think that HACKERS are the worst, by going out and downloading or making a hack you have your mind set on beating the system and making yourself look better. If you are in a game and its iwth friends and someone whispers you a counter or something like that i dont think its too big of a deal, people who abuse are just sad and arent worth the time to handle (except combat). People who use a glitch that is not allowed in tourneys are just bastards, which does not always guarantee a win BTW. So Hackers = worst, need banning Abusers = Sad and just idiots
Btw, Testie hacked? I did not know that, is it true or what?
On August 31 2009 12:42 FuDDx wrote: I think any pr oven hacker should be allowed to continue to post and visit just give them a big HACKER sign next to their name. When they prove themselves worthy then they may go through a voting process to get it removed.
I do not approve of hacking/cheating/abuse of any kind. If anyone "needed" to hack it would be me with 11 years of playing and still a solid 8 0 apm.
I really dislike dishonesty in a game Ive loved for years, let alone in any sport/game it just seems silly to me. But then agian I dont and never will hack.
A proven hacker learned the game through looking at your base at all times. Hackers are as good as the legit people through a faster route, which imo is bullshit.
On August 31 2009 12:34 travis wrote: he should be being made fun of for being pathetic. It's not like he is new here, he kind of has a history. He isn't just "another player", he's clazziqual from tl.net
for the most part I agree with this, but the whole "for fun" spiel is laughable. ruining someone else's fun is not fun at all, it's selfish
Imho there should be no forgiveness thoward cheaters. It could only send wrong msges to ppl who r thinking "hmm,will or will I not use it". And also imo the more harsh is the punishment the fewer r those who brakes them.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
Because they find it fun to win?
And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)
A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.
i see what you're trying to say, that in random games the opponent of the hacker probably won't even know that their opponent is hacking,ignorance is bliss sort of thing. I don't agree with it though, hacking or having an advantage over your opponent in any way shouldn't be tolerated. it just ruins the integrity of the game plain and simple. plus it stunts the non-hacker from improving their game because they lose due to something inexplicable (opponent being able to see the entire map)
Well i definitely agree that hacking shouldn't be tolerated. What I don't agree with is the approach. It just seems to me that hackers will still hack, and just be as careful as possible. And then, once banned, they will probably keep hacking because they are banned and who cares.
This is why I think ostracizing and humiliating them is a much better approach. Motivation to actually improve theirselves.
On August 31 2009 13:00 PanN wrote: Being hacked against ruins the game for me. Argument invalid.
I wonder how often you were hacked against and you didn't realize :-)
Or how many times you thought you were hacked against but actually were not.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
Because they find it fun to win?
And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)
A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.
a hacker ruins the game for himself. that is the worst crime of all. friends don't let friends hack.
anyone one trying to say hacking on iccup hurts no one is stupid... it ruins the game for alot of ppl.. if its ok for some to hack.. why wouldnt everyone hack.. and if they hack in a iccup ladder games what stops them from hacking in iccup tournaments or League's / CW's seriously sadist and travis ... (stop) (think) (type) in that order also think of the ladders going (asl valor ect) on that retarded hackers beat them becasue they cheat.. if we allow ppl to get away with this.. what stops more from joining the darkside.. if ppl want to hack, go east and dont dare get involved with anything important.
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote: The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.
Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.
Why...
Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?
If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.
(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)
And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.
If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).
Because they find it fun to win?
And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)
A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.
a hacker ruins the game for himself. that is the worst crime of all. friends don't let friends hack.
It seems like certain people here are assuming that most people play ladder matches "just for fun", which is certainly not the case for a lot of people. A ladder is, by it's very nature, competitive. Therefore, the outcome of each and every match is important to those who seek to better their position on it.
iCCup is, first and foremost, a ladder system. If hacking takes place in melee (non-ranked, non-tournament "just for fun" matches), then it is between the hacker and the opponent only. But when hacking takes place in any ladder or non-ranking tournament match, the punishment should be universal and severe. Why? Because in a competitive game, the thing that matters most is balance and a level playing field.
Hacking undermines the very nature of competitive play and therefore has no place in it.
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote: To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
I am admin for the ESL Pro Series, Warcraft 3 though. In normal ladders this would be something like this:
1. Ban, 2 Years. 2. 3-6 Penalty Points. Ban 4 weeks to 3 months 3. Observer cheating: see 1. 4. Depends on the glitch. Usally freewin for the opponent, can be awarded with further penalties.
2 Year bans can be reduced to 6 months if some conditions are met - basicly spending some money, admiting it and doing some homework in the form of a 2000 word article.
I rated program / map hacking as 3rd, last would go for glitches since almost nobody uses it anyway and even so it's not really game breaking (read not hydra stack) Ladder abuse, and observer cheating in tournament are just simply wrong. Map hack is 3rd because of the ladder abuse being in priority. If map hack was used to abuse ladder then it's the same rule as the first two. However don't see it wrong being used 1 or 2 times for fun or training purpose. I already talked about it 10000 times in the past so i won't bother explain again why you shouldn't ban 100% of the map hackers.
On August 31 2009 13:15 RaiZ wrote: I rated program / map hacking as 3rd, last would go for glitches since almost nobody uses it anyway and even so it's not really game breaking (read not hydra stack) Ladder abuse, and observer cheating in tournament are just simply wrong. Map hack is 3rd because of the ladder abuse being in priority. If map hack was used to abuse ladder then it's the same rule as the first two. However don't see it wrong being used 1 or 2 times for fun or training purpose. I already talked about it 10000 times in the past so i won't bother explain again why you shouldn't ban 100% of the map hackers.
Don't u think hacking in general is a form of ladder abuse?
On August 31 2009 13:06 travis wrote: I wonder how often you were hacked against and you didn't realize :-)
Or how many times you thought you were hacked against but actually were not.
And what exactly does that prove? That some hackers are so subtle that they can win without alarming an inexperienced opponent? And that hacking is so prevalent that many people are now paranoid?
I feel that the first three are all to gain an edge, they are just as bad as one another, the fourth I'm not too sure, like someone mentioned, some people don't read the rules...(note - please read rules if you're new). Cheating is cheating, it's not like Clazz was new here, he has seen and knows what happens when people cheat. There is no excuse for what he did even if he has contributed, I'm glad mods here have stuck to their guns so far despite people thinking they have been too harsh, we need to be harsh.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't give him a second chance, he will get one and he deserves a second chance, but not now and not in 90 days, he has been perm banned because 90 days is max, the mods can undo the perma ban any time they want. Someone mentioned a year as a good starting point, I agree.
The thing that really boils my blood is that he hacked in a community tournament that he organised...geez
On August 31 2009 13:15 RaiZ wrote: I rated program / map hacking as 3rd, last would go for glitches since almost nobody uses it anyway and even so it's not really game breaking (read not hydra stack) Ladder abuse, and observer cheating in tournament are just simply wrong. Map hack is 3rd because of the ladder abuse being in priority. If map hack was used to abuse ladder then it's the same rule as the first two. However don't see it wrong being used 1 or 2 times for fun or training purpose. I already talked about it 10000 times in the past so i won't bother explain again why you shouldn't ban 100% of the map hackers.
Don't u think hacking in general is a form of ladder abuse?
Obviously it is. What i want to say is that there are players who use map hack only for training purpose. I even remember progamers/semi-pro using it for timings purposes. But don't get me wrong, just because progamers uses it doesn't mean that you have to. For example, using map hack in an iccup game but when you think he's about to type gg, you leave yourself, this way it's not a ladder abuse but rather a training game. Banning map hacker for 2 years with no reasons is just plain retarded.
On August 31 2009 13:29 -fj. wrote: I just think that stop lurker and allied mines should have the same legality status, whether legal or illegal.
I'd rather make hold lurkers illegal, otherwise that'd just make mines overpowered especially in tvp.
On August 31 2009 12:54 Kennigit wrote: Travis just stop...
Thank you! I can't believe half of what Travis was saying...
I don't think someone that has been a contributing member of TL( clazz ) be perma banned but he should be banned for a decent period and be given a tag/icon for being a known hacker. Hacking in a tourney that he himself helped organize is really low.
Map hacking / program hacking should really deserve a severely long ban or permaban, map hacking really ruins everyones fun imo.
Ladder abuse by free wins I don't see as a huge deal since it mainly affects the person doing it alone.
Observer cheating same as map hacking, cheating is cheating.
honestly this community is too fragile to condone hacking. regardless of what clazz did in the forum, the fact remains that there are many other members of this community who can contribute just as he did and organize tournaments as well. if you hack you should be perma banned. your id in broodwar should be effectively erased. if a hacker wants to start anew, he should make a new account and just start from scratch. hackers undermine starcraft in the absolute worst way possible.
I miss the good ol days of playing 3v3 zclut nr20 with map and stack hack and nydus canaling right behind their hatch @ 15minutes and totally killing their main hatch. And having 20 hatchs stacked.
As for hacking and the treatment of it, I think it should be dealt with as similarly to steroids.
If you are an average joe (clazzi) and just take steroids for fun and look good in the mirror (see 3v3zclut), then there really shouldn't be too much of a punishment besides people looking @ you with shame.
However if you are a professional muscle builder / athlete ( hacking in a tournament / cw ) , the punishment should equal the stakes at large.
for maphacking, observer cheating and ladder abusing: ban for life, please. they know it is wrong. they are shitting on everything this community stands for when they do it. i like hacker icon idea too, taints their legacy.
the glitch abuse i don't see to be as big a deal, i think it is kinda arbitrary given that stop lurker is ok but obs over turret or plague in interceptor are not. easily detected, disqualify them from the tournaments / matches, don't invite back if there is a pattern. iccup seems to handle this ok on their own too.
for maphacking/abusing, I really do find a perma ban worthy
What makes me sad is that we're discussing about a Timed banned just because we recently saw Clazz get banned. Yes I miss Clazz, Yes I loved the guy but he still cheated.
If Clazz (or any loved veteran poster) wasn't on that list, this conversation wouldn't be needed. Everyone would've just said "WELL BAN OBV THEY ARE SCUMS OF SC." Yes we lost a respected community member, but I don't believe just because we lost a respected community member we should be discussing whether 'banning' them for cheating is a harsh punishment.
Any form of cheating = perm ban is my final answer.
I think hacking really is an insult to everyone who plays any game and those who do so should be punished for it, period. However, I believe in forgiveness and second chances. People in desperate times will take desperate measures and often hurt themselves in the process. In making a judgment one has to consider more than just the crime.
On August 31 2009 12:12 Kennigit wrote: This is a home to top broodwar players. When someone is banned from this site for hacking it isn't for our (staff) benefit. Beyond the "moral compass" argument, we couldn't give a fuck. It's for the justice that legit players deserve. Think of how often someone posts a thread saying "DID THIS GUY HACK???" What can you do? Get your win back? Is that justice? I think we have a responsibility to make it so abhorrently unacceptable to hack that you get what you deserve no matter who you are or what you contribute. Is that fair? Maybe not, but neither is cheating.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
Contributing does not make you immune to punishment. Hacking is literally the worst thing you can do in this community. If i raped and killed you (kinky right?) would it be ok cause i volunteer in some local charity?
Clazz has been around here for a couple years and helped to organize several tournaments (admittedly he hacked in one of them, although i don't know if that was the time he was caught hacking in that two day period or if there were others) but honestly i think 30 or 90 day would suffice here, he's a really valuable community member. To use your own analogy, if you killed me and then, and ONLY then sexed up my dead corpse, (because dead people don't say no), you would most likely not recieve the "death penalty" (perma ban) but instead prison time. Admittedly quite a bit of prison time, but in the light of your donation to charity, i'm pretty sure it would be in countable years (30-50? I don't know how long people are sentenced). I'm sorry if i'm not getting my point across perfectly, but i guess i just have a moral objection to this (banning clazz) at a really deep level.
Your argument is that someone's history should have an effect on the punishment they get...that is not how the justice system works lol.
You're right nobody gets a get out of jail free card but when the judges or jury make their decision they take into account the character of the individual and the situation they were in. If they have had previous offenses the punishment is worse and sometimes on first offense they receive a lesser punishment. Clazziquai deserves to be punished severely no doubt, but I think his character should play a role in the judgment.
On August 31 2009 12:01 ghermination wrote: I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
But by not banning him, doesn't that send the message that we don't support a fair play environment? Doesn't his ban for hacking on iccup taint the contributions he does here, like his tournaments etc? We are a community that uses several different websites as a whole, I don't think you are a different person depending on which site you transgress on. Obviously there are different levels of cooperation between sites though.
I can definitely understand this point of view. Yourself, other admin, top foreigners and many other contributors have worked hard to make TL what it is today. I think banning him will send a message of justice and fair play, however I think a permanent ban is too harsh. If Clazziquai is willing to change and admit his mistake then I think a more powerful message would be to forgive him. TL is a very firm website that takes no BS and I think everyone here is aware of that. But at the same time TL is like a big family. Some members are not as involved as much, such as myself but I still like to think of everyone here as my friend. Although I didn't know or ever talk to Clazziquai I will definitely miss him. It was definitely NOT alright for him to cheat and he should be punished but it isn't hard to sympathize with the frustration of losing and wanting to win so badly. He made a big mistake, he knew the consequences beforehand and maybe he accepts the punishment but I ask that you please see what he has to say at least, if you have not already.
I think all this perma banning is honestly silly. It creates such a negative atmosphere and once one is perma banned, what stops them from cheating then? There is no incentive to improve oneself or try to change for the better. Just by scanning this thread there are a number of good ideas.
Icon Change: Announces to everyone that you are a CHEATER! Similar to those posts marked 'nuked', this gives everyone a terrible first impression of you, but all things considered, is not a very powerful threat in and of itself.
Community Service: Two birds with one stone. Not only punishes the perpetrator either monetarily (maybe he could put up the prize money for a community tournament or something of the like) or time-wise (helping to organize events or w/e), but the community gets something out of it as well.
Essay/Video Apology: Works to win the hacker back into the community. If well done, it could change alot of minds, if not...see combat-ex's video
Point Punishment: If they won some number of ICCUP points by cheating for them, take them away, and then some. I believe ICCUP has some kind of system like this in place already though.
Combinations of these and other's similar in nature could provide ways for those who fucked up and ate of the devil's fruit a second chance, but only after they jump through some hoops. The specific offenses determine just how high they have to jump. Obviously these kinds of things and banning are not mutually exclusive. If someone is 'unfixable', BAN!
Maphacking should be a lifetime ban, or maybe 2 years (but even after that, I could never look at them the same).
Nobody 'accidentally' has a 'slip of judgement' and maphacks. They DOWNLOAD the maphack, they SET UP the maphack, they probably TEST OUT the maphack, and then they use it in an important game to screw over their opponent.
At any step in that process before the end, they could have stopped, and deleted the hack. They didn't, and they didn't because they knew full well what they were doing.
The only exceptions I can think of are if the person in question is a young teenager or something, we all do stupid shit as kids. But if it's someone over 18, then hell no, they deserve no mercy.
- He's not banned - He's still around - He's really popular still
Boxer contributed a lot to Starcraft, and the refs knew it. His popularity at that time probably saved him from the banhammer, and it allowed him to bring further innovations back into the community.
Look at Clazz. He has admitted that he hacked, he contributes to the community, although on not as large a scale as any progamer or the mods, but still he does.
The forums may condemn hacking, but a perma-ban is too rough on a contributing member. It's like cutting bridges away that could be used to resupply an army in war, on the premise that enemy troops can use it. Withdraw the guy's perma-ban, I say, give him a 1 year ban or 1/2 year ban, the period is really up to the mods' discretion (I'm in no position to judge a person's sentence, only feel that a perma-ban kills off options.)
Addressing Mani's listed offenses.
Maphacking / Program hacking
Abusing the program should not be taken lightly, and a heavier punishment should be meted out. Ban the fellow and allow him back after x days, but take away all his privileges/forum functions. Give him a post a day and judge him from there. This would give the mods some form of examination power to determine whether the offender is going to correct his ways or not.
Ladder Abuse by Free wins
Should be awarded with a ban, then followed by a Combat_EX icon. After all, a rank is nothing unless (stated elsewhere in this thread) it helps the offender get into a tournament. Catching these people in the act just shows them up to the whole world, and the motivation to get a better rank appears to be for the nourishment of their epeens. Humiliation should shut these buggers down effectively.
Observer cheating
Should be brought up to refs of the ladder, the cheater banned from the ladder. If it's in a FFA or some UMS/ friendly games, punishment should depend on the players and their opinion.
Ingame glitches
Is quite a sensitive issue seeing how the ladder rules differ from ladder to ladder. I won't talk about this, I'm not too clear on how it should be treated as well.
@ repeat offenders - After getting a second chance, and still relapsing, ban them forever. Second chances are golden and wasting one is heresy.
@ mods - Might want to consider the direction of TL and adjust punishments according to the desired goal of TL. If we want to expand the site, perma-bans might be really harsh and prove a detriment, if applied to contributing members like Clazz.
He cheated in a teamliquid tournament he set up, this is unacceptable. I believe in second chances. That being said 1 year if he donates/performs service and 2 years if he does not. Hacking can not be tolerated and I will never think of hackers the same when I find out they hack.
Map Hacking - Ban Ladder Abuses - Ban Observer Cheating -BAN wtf Illegal glitches - If it's banned in tournaments, then it's banned. Ban
I think hacking in a community tournament or anything run by TL warrants an immediate perma ban no questions asked.
I think that if someone is hacking outside the reaches of teamliquid...
1) A warning should be stated in the TL 10 commandments about TL members and hacking 2) I like the idea of having some sort of icon or label indicating to everyone that the member is a hacker outside of teamliquid tournaments, etc. Maybe even not ranking up the member from the original drone/scv/probe in addition
I don't think previous contributions should factor into the punishment given ban is ban no matter how much you've done, because you're just making competitive bw a shitty place for people who want to have fun.
it seems like such an obvious trap - hacks are really easy to find, hacks give hackers huge advantages, hackers stay anonymous to some degree even if caught. there are no real consequences. the lack of self-respect required to fall for such an easy temptation that anyone can judge as shameful is pathetic. i've never understood the mentality it takes: how it can mean anything to anyone to win an unfair game?
i realize that in the grand scheme of things hacking isn't too big of a deal, yeah you win more stupid games on the computer, great. the lack of consequences and anonymity of the internet really make it easy for the casual player to not think of other players as people too, rather just opponents. but in a tight close-knit community like this that values fair and skilled competition, it's simply inexcusable. this is why for me the fact that clazziquai was a high post-count, generally well-liked (or so it seems), and involved member (that had met other TL users in person!!) here at TL makes him outright disgusting - he knowingly hacked against people he claimed family. there's not much else you can do here to get your name shitted on so much.
All of them are forms of cheating and they should be treated equally. If people are caught cheating they should be IP banned from iccup and banned from teamliquid aswell. And unless they make a public apology to the community and show signs of a change of heart, they might as well remain banned.
I think that cases of cheating should be done on a case by case basis. Like the current law systems in most countries, punishments for crimes will be known, and they will be the precedent, but circumstances also play a part. Such as murder is illegal and you go to jail, but if done in self-defense then likely not. Hacking to give yourself an unfair advantage would be punishable, hacking to prevent others from hacking (Isn't that what anti-hack is) is obviously not punish worthy.
I think that that much depends on the mindset of the cheater. "I'm going to cheat my way to victory fuck everyone else" "Lol I wonder how the game changes if I have full map the whole time" and "What? allied mines is illegal??"
In real life, if somebody goes and a murder spree they clearly don't feel guilty during the murders and very likely won't (repeat offenders.). But if somebody kills/hacks once, gets caught and regrets it. (impossible to know for sure, but if they care enough to fake it, that means something too). I would then think that the two would receive different punishments, although both would be severe.
Then, comes the situation in which cheating was conducted. In friendly game with people you know and your open about it then its clearly better than hacking to win money at serious tournaments.
For ladder abusing, unless its to qualify for a tournament, or to deceive others into donating money then I really don't care to much. Sure the guy looks better on paper, but if he faces the opponents in the skill level he abused to, he'll quickly fall back down, or if he abused his way into my level, that's a free win. (Assuming I didn't abuse too). This doesn't mean he gets off free, but punishment should scale to the factor. Stealing a candy bar gets you a warning/fine, robbing a bank is jail time.
Observer cheating also falls into the situational category, in CWs or tournaments should be severe punishment, but in fun 1v1 obs games it is more lenient. Especially if the players are all friendly and the seriousness is further reduced because an obser is actually nuke rushing somebody. Lying so people fall into a pit of death is bad. Lying so your prank works, not so bad.
Glitches again depend on intent and situation trying to cheat a big win at a tournament where you should know the rules is clearly far worse than accidentally moving an obs over a turret in a friendly game. Speeding in an unmarked area versus going over the speed limit in nas car (Don't think theres actually is one unless theres a crash, but I couldn't really come up with anything for speeding)
As for clazz, I think a perma ban is too much (since he seems guilty and fessed up when caught), but a 90-day ban would be too short considering it would allow people to weigh "hack and risk 90days or not?"
Since he is contributing member this should add some leniency to him. (Its in the forum rules that vets get preferential treatment, although I don't think it meant for situations like this.)
Also I think some public reminder that somebody is a cheater would serve as a better form of punishment then blanket bans. Since every time a caught cheater saw his bad icon, crossed out name, or CHEATER sign, etc, he would reflect and hopefully be less likely to cheat. As opposed to "I'm banned anyways, why not keep hacking."
Also I think some public reminder that somebody is a cheater would serve as a better form of punishment then blanket bans. Since every time a caught cheater saw his bad icon, crossed out name, or CHEATER sign, etc, he would reflect and hopefully be less likely to cheat. As opposed to "I'm banned anyways, why not keep hacking."
Or how about an upper case "C" for "cheater," in scarlet?
In my opinion, ladder abusing on iccup (Rather than in a tournament ladder) is nowhere near the same level as cheating to gain an advantage in a game. You aren't hurting anyone else with your abuse, and as such it should carry a lesser punishment.
when you maphack(this doesnt really apply to disc hacking or other offences) you are violating an unspoken agreement/understanding you have with your opponent. both players expect the game to be the same for everyone involved, both players to be on equal footing when the game starts, and both players realize that the winner wins becaue he played better than the loser. when you maphack you shit all over starcraft as a sport by breaking the rules to enlarge your e-penis for whatever reason. i'm not saying all maphackers are assholes, clazzaquai, for example, is a great guy. what i am saying is that maphackers are not treating the game or their opponents with the mutual respect even the trash-talkiest d- level player gives and recieves from his opponent.
so what do we do about it? well i really dont know, while some of the caught hackers may still be capable of contirbuting to the commuinty, we can't have that kind of disrespect be without consequence. maybe a ban from all relevant events and some sort of label as a caught hacker would shame and restirct the action of the person breaking the rules, while still giving them the chance to contribute to and participate in the community (which is the only way 'redemption' of any kind can really be achieved imo).
my 2 cents
edit: i think disc hacking is actually less disrespectful than maphacking but has a different motive. i mean anyone who sees you play knows you are garbage, and it cant be used in important games or even friendly games. its sole purpose is to climb the ladder. i think disc hacking carries with it an even less mature mindset than maphacking, so disc hackers should be banner outright as lazy kids who just want attention
edit2: observer cheating should result in an immediate ban for both parites, seeing as it only makes sense to do in important games, and there is no excuse for it once proven.
in game bugs have to be done on a case by case basis becaues the same situation rarely occurs twice in game
The fact that Clazz WASNT some random guy makes it that much worse.
In general I favor permabans. I just don't see the point of hacking and TL should have a tough stance on it. I know this is a small post, but I want to get my 2 cents in.
I place hacking, glitches (cheating) and observer cheating in a different, more severe category as compared to abuse. Abuse is more victim-less and a simple reset of stats or locked account probably gets rid of the underlying problem. Cheating of any kind is not in the spirit of the game, ruins it for other people who obviously take this game very seriously (please don't use the it's just a game excuse...) and are really bringing the community and game into disrepute.
People who hack are generally just hackers by nature - they can change of course (especially if, for example, they started hacking through curiosity or something and found it hard to revert back to playing the game the hard way) but that won't be solved with leniency. Of course there are some cases in which the hacker will obviously not change. However, it is still unfair to treat people differently for what is essentially the exact same offence. Magnitude of punishment I can't really comment on, although it's hard to give second chances when it is unknown whether you can catch the person performing the same action again - as is potentially the case with hacking.
Observer cheating I have a particular hate for in a competitive or ladder environment (amongst friends or in a pub server it is really just an annoyance), as it is sneaky and deceiptive. In my view the person/s can never be trusted.
In-game glitches are less clear - it is still cheating but so is glancing over to someone in a test just to check one question - you don't deserve to be kicked out of school for that. I'd say repeat offences are the main issue here, so that in one-off cases the discounting of any games involved and a warning/small ban is just punishment enough.
Ladder abuse I think should just be discouraged, and the viewpoints on such very well known. There is little essential difference in my opinion where one player might play his friend in 3 or 4 games to get his C+ rank earlier as compared to picking on low win-rate, low-points C/C- players. Still, soething should be in place to discourage and punish it as it underines the whole point of competitive ladders.
TL is full of inconsistencies. Some people are banned for life, but make new accounts and come back. How do you feel about this. Should there be forgiveness? Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things? How would you like to see them dealt with?
I am very much against treating others differently - everyone can present their case and whether you believe it or not is a different thing but I would not like to be given a second chance just because I post some nice Live Report threads now and then or translate something for somebody. Guidelines should be set for the admins but ultimately it is up to them as to how the rules are interpreted and punished and they should be trusted to do the right thing (or else not be admins). If you are conscious about doing something ethically wrong or inconsistent, why not have a section in which admin decisions are reviewed by peers and any abnormalities discussed, with the admin's peers effecting a kind of governing body on admin issues?
Forgiveness, I agree with to a certain degree - as long as it is kept as a punishment and not an excuse for them to take amonth long vacation. People should be very dissuaded to do bannable offences.
This is fundamentally a game, talk of permanent bans e.t.c seems ridiculous to be me and I don't like the way this seems to be equated with committing a crime. that said banning these people for a time from competative leagues or tournaments seems fine, but i would only think banning people from a community if they are known to repeatedly hack or show exceptionally bad attitude when found out.
I think generally the only way for a hacker to stop hacking is if no hacks are available. This game is over 10 years old, and I doubt hackers will stop hacking if hacks are available.
* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Worst kind of hacking, permaban( not for disc hack, i dont think it belongs here, id place it with illegal game glitches). If these people come back in a year or so and prove themselves they might be allowed to exist on a different account but probably not trusted for a long time
* Ladder abuse by free wins
Just ban the account on server, obviously give another chance.
* Observer cheating
Only in important games( ladder cws, important cws, tournaments etc) Otherwise not ban worthy, sometimes a random retard/clan mate msgs you stuff ingame even when no one asked him to. Happened plenty of times on east. Friendly games doesnt even matter. This one should really be case specific.
* Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in tournaments, etc)
On August 31 2009 17:45 XeliN wrote: This is fundamentally a game, talk of permanent bans e.t.c seems ridiculous to be me and I don't like the way this seems to be equated with committing a crime. that said banning these people for a time from competative leagues or tournaments seems fine, but i would only think banning people from a community if they are known to repeatedly hack or show exceptionally bad attitude when found out.
If there are no consequences for "only hacking a couple of times" then it's stupid + no one is really going to care about stopping themselves from hacking. The community should set harsh rules, and when someone comes back on an AKA in 6+ months, they should receive a fair amount of stigma or rebanned. Otherwise, hacking is accepted.
In Clazz's case I think he can come back and fix his reputation if mods choose to allow it... but it should always be on his record...
And it's fundamentally a game as much as this is fundamentally just a stupid web forum dedicated to some video game. If hackers wanna waste people's time hacking in a game, they shouldn't be in the community. They can hack all they want from outside. After all, if they hack because it's just a game, why would they care to be on a forum dedicated to some stupid game they don't even respect enough to play fairly?
On August 31 2009 17:53 Vasoline73 wrote: If there are no consequences for "only hacking a couple of times" then it's stupid
absolutely, its hard as it is to prove someone hacks and if theres a method to pick off those players it has to be enforced strictly. You might not get lucky catching someone hacking even 2nd time since hes going to be careful.
you cant make hacks unavailable any hack can be antihacked, and antihack can be overhacked so it is periodical process anyway, by creating and developing hacks and antihacks
the only you can do to fight hacking is do your best by making antihacks for knowing hacks, and give maximum reasonable punishment for using hacks
it must be like 2 years ban for first hack detecting, and forever ban for long period using hack or second time detecting
This might sound kind of weird but honestly if someone is stupid enough to cheat today they are just going to get steam-rolled in SC2. Blizzard is very good at getting rid of cheats (take WoW for example) and this will be implemented to the fullest degree in SC2.
Sure, they can cheat their way to B- on ICCUP right now, but ICCUP is old and outdated. That system is going to be like comparing a horse and buggy with a nascar once Starcraft 2 comes out. I honestly dont think cheating will be a problem for a long time, if ever, once Bnet 2.0 is here.
That said, I still think its completely disgusting that people would cheat for wins. I can kind of understand cheating on the current bnet because theres no way to check your opponents skill, no way to know if they're cheating or talking on vent with friends, etc etc. But with ICCUP its the closest thing we have to a professional online league for now so its a shame to see people try to abuse it.
Basically: If you cheat, you're filth, but we all know you're going to suck at SC2 anyway.
I personally think anyone caught hacking shouldn't get a second chance. I don't believe in second chances concerning cheating. You knowingly tried to bypass the rules, and most likely would have kept doing so if you weren't caught. I don't believe in forgiveness concerning shit like that. This would be concerning maphack/observer chatting.
Abusing illegal glitches... not as bad as hacking, can be easily detected, and reported. There I believe there could be a warning, then a temp ban, then a perma ban.
Ladder abuse is pretty similar to illegal glitches, except slightly not as bad in my opinion. It's not really screwing anyone else over except denying hte legitimacy of the system. Warning, temp ban, then permaban as well with that (not saying I condone it, just the "least of all the evils).
On August 31 2009 17:56 HuskyTheHusky wrote: This might sound kind of weird but honestly if someone is stupid enough to cheat today they are just going to get steam-rolled in SC2. Blizzard is very good at getting rid of cheats (take WoW for example) and this will be implemented to the fullest degree in SC2.
Sure, they can cheat their way to B- on ICCUP right now, but ICCUP is old and outdated. That system is going to be like comparing a horse and buggy with a nascar once Starcraft 2 comes out. I honestly dont think cheating will be a problem for a long time, if ever, once Bnet 2.0 is here.
That said, I still think its completely disgusting that people would cheat for wins. I can kind of understand cheating on the current bnet because theres no way to check your opponents skill, no way to know if they're cheating or talking on vent with friends, etc etc. But with ICCUP its the closest thing we have to a professional online league for now so its a shame to see people try to abuse it.
Basically: If you cheat, you're filth, but we all know you're going to suck at SC2 anyway.
Ugh. Not everyone is preparing for SC2.
And why would that make them suck at SC2? Because they have to cheat to get a higher rank in SC, they'll have to do the same in SC2?
By that logic, you'll be absolute garbage in SC2, because a maphack wouldn't even get you anywhere close to good in SC.
Basically, your post is completely, utterly retarded.
i dont think someone should be banned for eternity. sure cheating is immoral, but its just a game. most of the time nobody loses money out of this (unless its a big tourney or starleague, im not sure on the details just in general) and its not really that serious of an issue imo.
maphacking - serious but not that serious in this context. not worthy of an eternity ban lol ladder abuse - bit more serious because you havent cheated one person but a bunch of people that you bypassed observer cheating - same as maphacking i guess illegal glitches - not nearly as serious as the others, its just a glitch, maybe banned for the rest of the tournament or DQed im not sure
i figure this is for clazz judging from the posts and hes a pretty solid member here so im definitely not in favour of him being banned for a long time.
i disagree with with ladder abuse being not as serious as the others. if you maphack, you cheat one person. if you ladder abuse, you cheat all the people you have bypassed going up the ladder because youve essentially won points and climbed above them without doing anything. its like maphacking a whole bunch of people to me.
this being said i dont take cheating in general bnet very seriously. if someone maps me im like 'wow what a faggot' but thats all that happens. forget about it the next day and dont really follow it up because it doesnt bother me very much. i guess if i was doing something for money or even as a job id be pissed and more action would be needed. but really its just a game for me so it doesnt concern me much and i dont hunger for the hacker's blood for mapping or glitching or what have you
i like playing games but i dont take them so seriously that i think someone who hacks or abuses should be booted for life.
i have no idea how you will set the punishment for that, but too me it seems wayyyyy overboard banning someone for a long period of time for cheating once, especially in a semi serious community that just plays for fun
I don't think hackers need to be banned for life. I rather like the icon option that has been mentioned here before. The hacker can choose, after sitting out punishment, to go back here and perhaps contribute for real, while everyone else has a permanent reminder of the risks involved. And the risks involved, is the primary motivator for a perma-ban. Once a hacker, always a hacker. But one cannot be sure that people won't better their gaming lives, an icon serves as a good middle ground.
Perhaps the icon should be click-able to a thread or post with an explanation of the hacking history, for better personal judgment when playing the person again and as a historical explanation.
On August 31 2009 17:56 HuskyTheHusky wrote: This might sound kind of weird but honestly if someone is stupid enough to cheat today they are just going to get steam-rolled in SC2. Blizzard is very good at getting rid of cheats (take WoW for example) and this will be implemented to the fullest degree in SC2.
Sure, they can cheat their way to B- on ICCUP right now, but ICCUP is old and outdated. That system is going to be like comparing a horse and buggy with a nascar once Starcraft 2 comes out. I honestly dont think cheating will be a problem for a long time, if ever, once Bnet 2.0 is here.
That said, I still think its completely disgusting that people would cheat for wins. I can kind of understand cheating on the current bnet because theres no way to check your opponents skill, no way to know if they're cheating or talking on vent with friends, etc etc. But with ICCUP its the closest thing we have to a professional online league for now so its a shame to see people try to abuse it.
Basically: If you cheat, you're filth, but we all know you're going to suck at SC2 anyway.
Ugh. Not everyone is preparing for SC2.
And why would that make them suck at SC2? Because they have to cheat to get a higher rank in SC, they'll have to do the same in SC2?
By that logic, you'll be absolute garbage in SC2, because a maphack wouldn't even get you anywhere close to good in SC.
Basically, your post is completely, utterly retarded.
Thanks for your contribution..
lol totally brutal honesty .
To respond also, I'm sure hacks will come out for Bnet 2.0 eventually. The deciding factor is Blizzard and keeping their anti hack updated...
So I'm sure that hackers will always look for new ways to hack.. might as well weed them out whenever we get the chance
On August 31 2009 18:42 Badjas wrote: I don't think hackers need to be banned for life. I rather like the icon option that has been mentioned here before. The hacker can choose, after sitting out punishment, to go back here and perhaps contribute for real, while everyone else has a permanent reminder of the risks involved. And the risks involved, is the primary motivator for a perma-ban. Once a hacker, always a hacker. But one cannot be sure that people won't better their gaming lives, an icon serves as a good middle ground.
Perhaps the icon should be click-able to a thread or post with an explanation of the hacking history, for better personal judgment when playing the person again and as a historical explanation.
expanding on that, maybe a gaming rating based on how honest your play is? for eg.
everyone starts off at 0 except for some really manner players judged by the community or mods, and people that have been known to cheat in some way go into the negatives. say, -5 for first offense glitching in a tournament, -15 for maphacking, -20 for cheating in a tournament involving money etc. and it adds up as you cheat more and more until a certain threshold which results in a permaban
make it known that people have cheated in some way, and give them an opportunity to work themselves back to 0
While I don't appreciate cheating for obvious reasons, the behavior of people flaming those that are caught for or suspected of cheating in various threads often appear much more disgusting to me than the act of cheating in itself. Personally I don't really mind cheating in it's current form. And to be honest I'm almost certain most of us has experimented a little at some point in our bw carreer (hopefully not on a ladder or any other competetive environment though.)
Even if I come across a mh user every once in a while it's rare enough on iccup that I don't really see any point in wasting the energy that I notice many tlers are putting into raging over those incidents. Not the end of the world.
Edit: I also fail to see the responsibility of TL.net as a community dedicated to pro-gaming and related discussions to ban people merely based on the fact that they used some 3d party program on iccup. It doesn't make much sense, as long as they behave well and contribute otherwise. Of course you're free to do as you please. Seems a bit like banning someone for getting a parking ticket or some other unrelated minor offence though.
On August 31 2009 19:06 hifriend wrote: While I don't appreciate cheating for obvious reasons, the behavior of people flaming those that are caught for or suspected of cheating in various threads often appear much more disgusting to me than the act of cheating in itself. Personally I don't really mind cheating in it's current form. And to be honest I'm almost certain most of us has experimented a little at some point in our bw carreer (hopefully not on a ladder or any other competetive environment though.)
Even if I come across a mh user every once in a while it's rare enough on iccup that I don't really see any point in wasting the energy that I notice many tlers are putting into raging over those incidents. Not the end of the world.
Except some people.. really.. have never tried hacking . I'm a hack virgin! Sue me.
And really, I could care less, but TL is the authority and they're the authority for a reason. Always kept a clean community and have always had a tightly run ship. I feel like to let hackers off the hook is to accept it as something that is ok and unstoppable. Clearly it will always exist in some form, but it should always be punished.
I just want to reiterate, I don't hate any hacker... if I met someone from the internet in real life, im not gonna like cold shoulder them.. it IS just a game. That being said.. this is the forum.. you know.. dedicated to that game -_-;;;;;;
On August 31 2009 19:06 hifriend wrote: While I don't appreciate cheating for obvious reasons, the behavior of people flaming those that are caught for or suspected of cheating in various threads often appear much more disgusting to me than the act of cheating in itself. Personally I don't really mind cheating in it's current form. And to be honest I'm almost certain most of us has experimented a little at some point in our bw carreer (hopefully not on a ladder or any other competetive environment though.)
Even if I come across a mh user every once in a while it's rare enough on iccup that I don't really see any point in wasting the energy that I notice many tlers are putting into raging over those incidents. Not the end of the world.
Except some people.. really.. have never tried hacking . I'm a hack virgin! Sue me.
And really, I could care less, but TL is the authority and they're the authority for a reason. Always kept a clean community and have always had a tightly run ship. I feel like to let hackers off the hook is to accept it as something that is ok and unstoppable. Clearly it will always exist in some form, but it should always be punished.
I just want to reiterate, I don't hate any hacker... if I met someone from the internet in real life, im not gonna like cold shoulder them.. it IS just a game. That being said.. this is the forum.. you know.. dedicated to that game -_-;;;;;;
On August 31 2009 19:06 hifriend wrote: While I don't appreciate cheating for obvious reasons, the behavior of people flaming those that are caught for or suspected of cheating in various threads often appear much more disgusting to me than the act of cheating in itself. Personally I don't really mind cheating in it's current form. And to be honest I'm almost certain most of us has experimented a little at some point in our bw carreer (hopefully not on a ladder or any other competetive environment though.)
Even if I come across a mh user every once in a while it's rare enough on iccup that I don't really see any point in wasting the energy that I notice many tlers are putting into raging over those incidents. Not the end of the world.
Except some people.. really.. have never tried hacking . I'm a hack virgin! Sue me.
And really, I could care less, but TL is the authority and they're the authority for a reason. Always kept a clean community and have always had a tightly run ship. I feel like to let hackers off the hook is to accept it as something that is ok and unstoppable. Clearly it will always exist in some form, but it should always be punished.
I just want to reiterate, I don't hate any hacker... if I met someone from the internet in real life, im not gonna like cold shoulder them.. it IS just a game. That being said.. this is the forum.. you know.. dedicated to that game -_-;;;;;;
thats true
what if someone named spoofed you?
Well most people should be able to separate in-game stuff as unimportant as opposed to irl. Then there are those that really get pissed and go HovZ on everybody's asses.
* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc) really bad, only partly forgivable after a long period of time away from community (1year+?) * Ladder abuse by free wins Forgivable but definitely hard to respect someone who did this. * Observer cheating Even worse than maphacking imo, having an observer in game is a trust given by the other player and must under all circumstances be respected! * Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc) easily detected i guess, i'd probably forgive it but still think he's an idiot, but not a horrible person.
i dont personally know the guy, but from what i've seen about clazz, he seems to be a nice guy. it's a shame that he hacked (in his own tourney).
i think the perma banned is justified and definitely sends a message to everyone else in the community: even forum veterans are not immune to these rules. if an admin (for some strange reason) was caught with hacking, he or she would be subject to the same rules (i would hope).
i'm worried that if clazz gets unbanned, then people might start using that as an excuse when they get caught hacking in the future ("clazz got unbanned, so i should be unbanned, too")
however, if there's enough heads put together to write an amendment to how TL deals with hackers, and the procedures after one returns from the ban are reasonable, then i wouldn't mind having clazz unbanned. until then, it should stay the way it is.
i dont think someone should be banned for eternity. sure cheating is immoral, but its just a game. most of the time nobody loses money out of this (unless its a big tourney or starleague, im not sure on the details just in general) and its not really that serious of an issue imo.
I think my free time is worth as much, if not more than money, so if I choose to spend my free time on this, and it is being impinged upon by hackers, then it is a problem.
On August 31 2009 17:45 XeliN wrote: This is fundamentally a game, talk of permanent bans e.t.c seems ridiculous to be me and I don't like the way this seems to be equated with committing a crime. that said banning these people for a time from competative leagues or tournaments seems fine, but i would only think banning people from a community if they are known to repeatedly hack or show exceptionally bad attitude when found out
Communities have rules, or laws, that govern them., Breaking the rules is a "crime" (although not criminal in the traditional sense). Clazz valued his id on these forums, and valued who he was as part of the community. If we can agree that hacking needs to have a punishment, then what better way to punish than to take away something he liked? If TL doesn't take that role, then there is no punishment for his behaviour.
I believe that all of those are pretty strong offenses, hacking possibly being the strongest and the usage of glitches the weakest. However, I personally believe that hacking and the likes would be all right on your own, or on a LAN with friends, as long as the other person would be fine with it and knew about it. I believe it should be punishable only when used in some kind of a competitive environment. However, I understand it is difficult to enforce this, and even hacking on somewhere like US East will hurt the people playing with you. There are cheat codes that you can play with in the single player mode, so there really is no good excuse.
My suggested punishments would be:
Hacking on ladder / tournament: Ban and having to wait until whatever time the TL had set, the TL system is fine. IMO Hacking for fun on like LAN to try it and such would be all right, but this is difficult to enforce. Then again, you can just melee and share vision, so it's pointless.
Ladder abuse: Well, it's different in combat's and stylish's cases. Stylish had given a lot to the community and seemed to think it was all right. Combat on the other hand abuses to hide the fact that in reality he sucks. In the case of abuse, I would let a minor offense fly one time, assuming they've contributed somehow, but in other case it'd be a ban, at least for a while.
Observer cheating: Really sucks and is lame. I'm not sure how I would punish this and how they can be caught. Ban from the tournament, possibly from all the future tournaments by that specific organizer, can work. Done repeatedly, you gain the image of an abuser and can't really do much. Also, banning 3rd party observers would be a good solution, but it obviously wouldn't be as much fun.
Using glitches: Can't really comment since I don't know the glitches well enough. Seems like the smallest offence and it's difficult to say if it was on purpose. It'd have to be repeated glitch abuse for them to be punished somehow, most likely a disqualification.
I believe that contributions matter, but only during the first time. If you are repeatedly caught, they don't matter anymore to me.
About forgiveness, I might forgive them after just one offense... but still with a reduced. It depends, maybe it'd be better to be consistant and give permabans to everyone, but some people really regret it and are truly sorry for what they've done, and I believe that these people should somehow be able to redeem themselves.
People should realize this isn't a deterant to stop cheaters. It's not our policy to try to rehabilitize these people. It's a simple case that cheaters in competitive games aren't welcome in this community whatsoever.
Free wins are not as bad as the other methods in most cases, but in the case where they are used to establish a person in terms of giving advice to the community then it is probably as bad (because it undermines the reputation system some of us use to judge the quality of advice)
I'm for permaban on this, limited only by the thought that enough contributers got caught in one sweep to damage the site then you would have to think long and hard about what was worse for the community, a dilution of principles or a reduced feature set.
I think 'branding' hackers is as bad or perhaps even worse than ignoring them, as it raises the profile of hackers. You don't want people to be reading a thread and thinking wow theres a lot of hackers talking here, again I feel thats bad for the community.
People make mistakes, and grow up over time but I think TL's responsibility is to the community at large (particularly since a permaban is not in any way comparable to a justice system penalty such as prison). Perhaps this means that some people will miss out on the opportunity to rehabilitate in SC terms, but I think we can all live with that.
On August 31 2009 17:56 HuskyTheHusky wrote: This might sound kind of weird but honestly if someone is stupid enough to cheat today they are just going to get steam-rolled in SC2. Blizzard is very good at getting rid of cheats (take WoW for example) and this will be implemented to the fullest degree in SC2.
Look this is kind of unrelated, but WoW has an INCREDIBLE amount of hacks. Some that re-engineered the blink mechanic to teleport anywhere in the world at the input of a command. Some that let you walk through walls. Some that show you the position of every mob and player in the world on a nice little in-game map. And these are just the PUBLIC hacks! Hacking is rampant in WoW if you know where to look, mostly botting. And the punishments for first time offenses are usually only a few days ban. Blizzard wants your money. That and Blizzard's current way of banning hackers is awful. I won't go into it though. Do a bit of research on Warden and you'll see how shit it really is at catching hacks.
The community needs to take a hard stance against hackers, especially in low level play. Because these companies honestly couldn't care less. It might be embarrassing for them if they find "pro-players" cheated to win a prize or something that they sponsored. But low level play? I doubt it.
What kills me is people who cheat against friends. Ugh. No doubt everyone's had someone fuck them over IRL. It sucks. This is pretty much what Clazz did. Organize a community tournament, then cheat? I mean....what the fuck is that? Maybe map-hacking (or whatever he did) isn't perma-ban worthy on it's own. But fucking over people in a community for no reason, other than personal gain? That is ban worthy. Such a dick move that it makes me mad to think anyone would even consider doing it.
Cheating needs to be discouraged as much as possible. There's not much people can do about it, in most online games, other than ban them. Maybe when people are held more accountable for what they do online there might be less cheating.
i don't believe in second chances, i believe in convincing apologies, which most hackers are unable to present, probably because they're not really sorry and only want to get out of trouble
Maybe when people are held more accountable for what they do online there might be less cheating.
Shades of HovZ vs Nextel or the Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back movie here I do agree, that being accountable for what you do online is a more and more important issue these days. With people putting so much more of "themselves" online, it is a greater investment. Using Clazz again as an example, this guy has met TLers irl. That is a significant investment imo.
I wrote the following before I saw Chill's post, so still posting this might be useless. I'd like to ask some things, though. Why does an offense not immediatley related to a posters contributions invalidate any possible further contributions? And why aren't you deleting every single post made by that poster? What is the significant and rational difference between the posts before and after the offence?
Here what I wrote:
As this is about punishment, one should probably first think about what punishment achieves. The most common points are
- protection for the community - basis for resocialization of the offender - prevention of further offenses of the same kind by other members of the community
The last point doesn't seem to work anywhere, at all, so I won't mention it further. For the first point one needs to specify the exact source from which the community needs/wants protection. Of course one could name the offender as the source and be done with it, but while this will certainly work, it generalizes everything to the disadvantage of the offender, and possibly the community. In the specific case of hackers/cheaters/abusers the members of the community need to be protected from being hurt (i.e. losing points and rank in the ladder, losing tournaments or even money). Now banning the offender permanently from the whole community will achieve the first point, the protection of the community, but it also makes the second point impossible, and it might hurt the community in other ways, it might for example lose an otherwise valuable contributor (or potentially valuable contributor).
The second point serves to prevent this, and it also makes a system of rules and punishments less totalitarian (or just less antiquated, in the extreme case even less barbaric), which should be a worthy goal. To allow for this point to be applied, the above mentioned punishment would need to be revised. Here an online community is restricted in its possibilites, its only practicable way seems to be banning the offender for a certain amount of time, and maybe marking the offender afterwards for everyone to see.
Here is where my suggestion comes in. Distinguish a hacking/abusing offender from a contributory offender (i.e. someone who breaks forum rules, like posting extremely offensively, disrupting discussions etc.). Why should a community hurt itself by (permanently) banning someone who contributes to it (or has the potential of doing so)? If someone hacks/abuses, ban the account, or better, the ip, of the offender so that he cannot continue playing (for an appropriate amount of time), but can still contribute. That way you protect the community, but still make it possible for the offender to be productive and for the community to profit from that. In addition, or in case of repeated or more serious offences, a ban to forum accounts shorter than that of the playing accounts might be warranted, as well as informing everyone about the offences, either by making a special thread for it or by modifying the offender's accounts' icons or signatures.
So instead of indiscriminately exiling offenders, one would still treat them as part of the community. I know that it is easy for an online community to just extract those parts that are or at least seem unwanted at the time, but that doesn't mean it is a good way to handle things. The above way is less absolute, and still manages to protect the community, while also making it possible to reintegrate offenders and thereby bringing an advantage to it. And it still makes absolutely clear that hacking and abusing is in no way tolerated.
As for appropriate lengths of bans, it seems to me that ammounts like 1 month (free win abusing), 1 season (observer cheating, intentional glitch abusing), and 2 seasons (hacking) are enough in most cases, although more might be required in cases of repeated offences. The forum bans should accordingly be a fraction of this time, the marking of the offenders should be removed after all bans have expired.
On August 31 2009 13:14 jtype wrote: It seems like certain people here are assuming that most people play ladder matches "just for fun", which is certainly not the case for a lot of people. A ladder is, by it's very nature, competitive. Therefore, the outcome of each and every match is important to those who seek to better their position on it.
iCCup is, first and foremost, a ladder system. If hacking takes place in melee (non-ranked, non-tournament "just for fun" matches), then it is between the hacker and the opponent only. But when hacking takes place in any ladder or non-ranking tournament match, the punishment should be universal and severe. Why? Because in a competitive game, the thing that matters most is balance and a level playing field.
Hacking undermines the very nature of competitive play and therefore has no place in it.
This.
I find it pretty amazing that people in tl.net are actually defending hacker rights.
Permaban for any hacker, period. No ifs buts and "oh he did so much to community.." Good deeds do NOT cancel out bad deeds, regardless of what they taught you at bible school. Gtfo with your soft heart.
Hacking in a bnet pubbie? who cares, that place is as lawless as the D2 open battlenet. You can't expect new/casual players of a game to take hacking seriously. However, as soon as they step their foot into a competitive ladder system such as iccup, there should be no second chance.
Not that I think that my opinion matters that much to most TL-ers. I will however throw a coin in the bucket.
What I think is when you get caught with your pants down (meaning you got caught hacking). The answer is plain and simple. BAN Ladder abuse/wintrading. BAN for a period of time, or even just a ladder reset might suffice. Observer cheating, yeah well. Do not allow observers if you think there might be a chance someone will cheat behind your back. Your own responsibility and therefor you shouldn't be banned for it.
Illegal game commands/switches, yeah well it is in the game, just a ladder penalty. e.g. if the person won a ladder game with it, revoke his points he gained with the illegal command.
I remember back in the day when Tillerman CC-slided and got banned from the i2e2? tournament. Which was funny but sour as well.
About forgiveness, no forgiveness when it comes to hacking. None what so ever. Getting an advantage when using a 3rd party program is in my world unforgiveable.
Getting an advantage when using the gameengine, meh, than the game should be properly updated so it can't be used anymore. But that ofcourse is my humble opinion.
First offense - 90 days ban. Second offense - Permanent ban.
Regarding clazziquai's case: I don't personally know him, but it appears he is a great community member and genuinely cool dude. TL wants to have such people around. As long as a guy has something special to contribute, I couldn't care less if he made the mistake of cheating once. We gain more from having a good member around than we lose from the moral dilemma of said member being an ex-cheater. I'm quite sure that clazz loves the game and there is a good chance he won't ever touch any hacks again. Punish him with a 90 day temp ban, then let him return. If he cheats again, so what, just perma ban him then with no questions asked.
All hacking or illegal nonesense, as far as I concerned, should either stay on East or not be used at all. If you're caught pulling this crap in Iccup or in community tournaments, instaban, but if you're fucking with some BGH kids then a lesser punishment may be in order. (Although if you lose, that says something about you LOL) Personally I think the permaban is fair. While clazz was a great contributer to the community, this hacking incident renders his entire history suspect. I disagree that he should be IP banned, however-he should at least be able to work his way back, maybe make him start over as a new account and brand him for 3 months like was done with DV and LR when they lost in the TL-GG match.
MH is like doping, u get better even after u stopped using, compered to regular guy. I mean, playing with MH, u get ur timing right, know when mutas r coming, get canons in time etc. Get to play better players then u should = better practice, get better. So its really unfair later on.
*Speculation*, would Testie be as good as he was without hacking ? Imho not.
map hacking is the worst followed by observer cheating, these use things that are not features of the game, things that are impossible without the hack or player telling you things and they directly effect the opponent, glitching is bad but there is a bit of skill or knowledge involved in it so i dont mind if its on bnet, abusing is just retarded but i dont care about it considering nobody gets away with it and actually gets into the higher ranks
as for the punishments, guess it depends on the person and what their intentions are, if a friend jokingly used a hack in a private game and was obvious about it and just fucking around i guess i would let it slide(if it continued though then its a problem fuck that)any ladder or tournament fuck no ban for life
On August 31 2009 12:29 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: 99% of all proven hackers have hacked after they got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes.
good job making up some statistic to try to validate your opinion
Almost every proven hacker has hacked after he got caught. Therefore I don't believe in giving a second chance to them. This isn't about being stupid this is about attitude and attitude rarely changes.
fixed. Read the list. When there are known names they've been at least suspicious or proven to have hacked before. See Zarrr, Vasilisk etc
* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc) Instant permaban. There's no reason to try and use these 3rd party programs in ladder or anywhere else. If you want to try a hack, do it with a friend on LAN. * Ladder abuse by free wins Well, I think there's only so far you can go with this, and if it doesn't harm anyone else, I don't see a reason to punish this person. If you play real players with your abused ranks, you will get destroyed, and you'll still be a bad player until you stop abusing. The only person this hurts is the abuser, because they actually think they are good (i.e. combat-ex). * Observer cheating Pretty much the same as maphack, but harder to catch since people could be talking on vent/TS. I know ghosting is a bannable offense on most CS/CSS servers, so this needs to be treated in the same manner. Ban both the ghoster/ghostee if you can determine who they are, especially if it's being done in a tournament. * Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc) Not sure what these are, but I would go glitch by glitch and determine if it's bannable or not. If they are banned in tournaments they should be banned in ladder too imo.
As everyone else has said, ladder abuse is much less of a crime than the others (and glitching isn't as serious as the other two, but still affects another player). I'm not going to go on and on, as I think all the points I could make on that subject have already been made.
However, there is a note about 'punishment'. Is it really more punishment that a person is banned from TL than it would be if they had stayed? Just think about it - if clazz had not been banned, every single post he made for a while would be followed up with hate. No one would trust anything he did, either. Regardless of the amount of work he might put into trying to become a full member of the community again, there will still be people who will dislike him for hacking. Is that really less punishment than being banned?
If we were worried about punishment, we'd let the community take care of it. I don't think this is TL's stance though. The idea is not that TL feels the need to punish, it's that TL is a place that is strongly against hacking and does not accept members who hack. We sit here and revere the Korean scene and it's progamers on a daily basis. We hold their accomplishments as the pinnacle of what you can achieve in not only this game but in all of e-sports. And out of everything there is not even a thought of hacking. In the end, hacking is the absolute antithesis of all that TL.net is about. It insults the game itself: from LAN parties with friends who all have 50apm, all the way up to the OSL finals.
We simply love Starcraft - that's what this comes down to. We love this game too much to tolerate it being degraded into the ground.
I'm more against program hacking since they put u into a disadvantage when they can do what u cant.. Maphacking/observer cheating can be irritating too since they are the Mr Know-all, and all ur strategies can be easily defended.. They usually goes for a long standard game.. Both category of such hackers should be banned at the very least.
I'm quite neutral about Ladder abuse, they may be at a higher rank where they actually dont.. But it doesnt matter if they play against ppl of the actual rank.. Looking from another angle, isnt this a little similar to play not within the korean time zone? If they are really abusing it too much, a temporal ban + resetting their scores and stats will do..
For me cheating is cheating, no matter how it's done. It's always as bad. Maybe only banned ingame glitches is not THAT huge deal, becouse sometimes you might do it by accident (tho it must be quite rare).
On August 31 2009 21:19 Slow Motion wrote: I am against capital punishment for hackers as I am fundamentally opposed to the death penalty. Any other form of punishment is okay though.
No-one is suggesting we kill them....
I'm not sure what this post means; as read literally it seems that you support life imprisonment / deportation / maiming for hackers which I can't believe is what you actually mean.
Ban someone from this website because he hacked in Starcraft? That's just dumb in my opinion. TL.net is much more than a simple Starcraft discussion board, and I'm kind of disapointed on some admin's decisions regarding this hacking wave. TL.net has some features most of the gaming websites don't, has some mature people with good discussions, that's why I choose these forums. Banning people because they hacked is imature and doesn't even make sense. If they hacked they should be banned from iccup, they violated it's rules not TL's.
On August 31 2009 21:30 QibingZero wrote: As everyone else has said, ladder abuse is much less of a crime than the others (and glitching isn't as serious as the other two, but still affects another player). I'm not going to go on and on, as I think all the points I could make on that subject have already been made.
However, there is a note about 'punishment'. Is it really more punishment that a person is banned from TL than it would be if they had stayed? Just think about it - if clazz had not been banned, every single post he made for a while would be followed up with hate. No one would trust anything he did, either. Regardless of the amount of work he might put into trying to become a full member of the community again, there will still be people who will dislike him for hacking. Is that really less punishment than being banned?
If we were worried about punishment, we'd let the community take care of it. I don't think this is TL's stance though. The idea is not that TL feels the need to punish, it's that TL is a place that is strongly against hacking and does not accept members who hack. We sit here and revere the Korean scene and it's progamers on a daily basis. We hold their accomplishments as the pinnacle of what you can achieve in not only this game but in all of e-sports. And out of everything there is not even a thought of hacking. In the end, hacking is the absolute antithesis of all that TL.net is about. It insults the game itself: from LAN parties with friends who all have 50apm, all the way up to the OSL finals.
We simply love Starcraft - that's what this comes down to. We love this game too much to tolerate it being degraded into the ground.
Beautiful. Brought a tear to my eye. God bless the game.
On August 31 2009 21:30 QibingZero wrote: As everyone else has said, ladder abuse is much less of a crime than the others (and glitching isn't as serious as the other two, but still affects another player). I'm not going to go on and on, as I think all the points I could make on that subject have already been made.
However, there is a note about 'punishment'. Is it really more punishment that a person is banned from TL than it would be if they had stayed? Just think about it - if clazz had not been banned, every single post he made for a while would be followed up with hate. No one would trust anything he did, either. Regardless of the amount of work he might put into trying to become a full member of the community again, there will still be people who will dislike him for hacking. Is that really less punishment than being banned?
If we were worried about punishment, we'd let the community take care of it. I don't think this is TL's stance though. The idea is not that TL feels the need to punish, it's that TL is a place that is strongly against hacking and does not accept members who hack. We sit here and revere the Korean scene and it's progamers on a daily basis. We hold their accomplishments as the pinnacle of what you can achieve in not only this game but in all of e-sports. And out of everything there is not even a thought of hacking. In the end, hacking is the absolute antithesis of all that TL.net is about. It insults the game itself: from LAN parties with friends who all have 50apm, all the way up to the OSL finals.
We simply love Starcraft - that's what this comes down to. We love this game too much to tolerate it being degraded into the ground.
This makes total sense to me. Now I can understand and accept the reasons for why Clazzi was banned. But if you are going to ban someone for hacking, you should be consistent and ban all known hackers, like testie.
Personally, I feel that there is some form of seperation no matter how big or small between in-game Iccup/bnet and website TL.net. I personally don't have any problems with banning cheaters from both, but I could understand not banning them from Teamliquid.net as they are in my opinion very separate things.
But truly I think consistency is most important. perma ban all and all their accounts. Or Ban them and allow a new account, whatever just be consistent
edit: and imo ladder abuse is less of a crime than the other 3. I feel this way because records and ranks are meaningless and only a petty futile fuck would care about that nonsense The other 3 destroy the integrity of the in-game experience which is what it's all about imo
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
I think players who maphack and use other hacks like mineral hack and multicommand should be banned but not permanently. Maybe a season or two.
Ladder abuse is really stupid and they should have there ladder reset and frozen to 1000 on iccup so that theres no point in doing it anymore. They should still be allowed to play though.
Obs cheating isnt so bad unless is in a serious game. If its on a random b.net game then its kinda fun to help your friends =D.
illegal in game glitches are bad. hmmkay?
I do believe that players who are caught cheating shouldnt be banned forever. I do believe though that players who are caught continuously cheating should be banned forever.
On August 31 2009 21:30 QibingZero wrote: As everyone else has said, ladder abuse is much less of a crime than the others (and glitching isn't as serious as the other two, but still affects another player). I'm not going to go on and on, as I think all the points I could make on that subject have already been made.
However, there is a note about 'punishment'. Is it really more punishment that a person is banned from TL than it would be if they had stayed? Just think about it - if clazz had not been banned, every single post he made for a while would be followed up with hate. No one would trust anything he did, either. Regardless of the amount of work he might put into trying to become a full member of the community again, there will still be people who will dislike him for hacking. Is that really less punishment than being banned?
If we were worried about punishment, we'd let the community take care of it. I don't think this is TL's stance though. The idea is not that TL feels the need to punish, it's that TL is a place that is strongly against hacking and does not accept members who hack. We sit here and revere the Korean scene and it's progamers on a daily basis. We hold their accomplishments as the pinnacle of what you can achieve in not only this game but in all of e-sports. And out of everything there is not even a thought of hacking. In the end, hacking is the absolute antithesis of all that TL.net is about. It insults the game itself: from LAN parties with friends who all have 50apm, all the way up to the OSL finals.
We simply love Starcraft - that's what this comes down to. We love this game too much to tolerate it being degraded into the ground.
Nice post man, this pretty much sums up how i feel
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote: Up front, so there is no misunderstanding, I am making this thread for my own interest. There is no official TL position here.
I'm just trying to gather my own thoughts on the issue, and thought I could find the tenor of the community.
To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Are they the same? Are they different?
What is the appropriate punishment for people caught of these offenses? Should they be different, or is cheating cheating, no matter the form?
TL is full of inconsistencies. Some people are banned for life, but make new accounts and come back. How do you feel about this. Should there be forgiveness? Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things? How would you like to see them dealt with?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
since its quite impossible to execute one of the hack programs unwillingly (and even if executed unwillingly the simple possession fact keeps it dubious), if there is solid evidence this should be treated the hardest way.
Ladder abuse by free wins
this i regard as being more a bad manner problem than enything else. one exception though: if the laddering gives you rewards like joining a League/Prizes for example (TSL Ladder stage f.e.). i wouldnt treat this as badly since it can happen if you are being carried away by playing with friends who might be far worse than you, but you keep playing for fun/dont carre about points (the rewarding ladder exception applies here too of course)
Observer cheating
this depends on evidence: if its clear that the observer and a player were abusing pings/information (which luckily can be discovered if you demand a replay of one of them), than this is a 'human maphack' case were the program was substituted with a human foulplayer masquerading as observer. treat this the hardest way possible. however the evidence must be 100% clear since this can be a setup by the observer/stupid observer who doesnt shit about AC too and in this case id say players/judges should decide together whether a regame is at hand or the game was unrecoverably in favour of one player before the incident happened. the observer should be at least punished by not being able to observe any more games of the event(even if he did it unknowingly)
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
i would treat this the softest of all, because its quite possible the player produced the glitch(es) without wanting too (thats why they are called glitches afterall); if the player won by using glitches when he couldnt have won otherwise a regame should be performed, if he was behind when using glitches to stay alive stall his death/disc whatever it should be forfeit loss.
just my thoughts on the issues i hope that helped
consequences for 'cheaters': repeated (as in 'looks like this is his/her system, but not quite sure though' ) happenings of unwillingly caused 'cheating' should lead to a disqualification from the event it accured on, but shouldnt ban the player from future events (benefit of doubt), if however one of the undeniable willingly-cheating instances occur it should be handled that the player is banned from this event(s)(even future ones), unless he provides non-cheating evidence for a sufficient time set by the judges(half a year to a year f.e.) which gives him a chance to 'qualify' again for the events he was previously banned from) e.g.: hacker got cought judges ban him hacker provides prove he stopped hacking for a year(maybe play each game withz mogulus on and put ALL of them on the on demand list) after this year he may be allowed to participate again.
id handle it that way because some people are able to actually learn something from there mistakes. however if a cheater who provided his non-cheating prove reparticipated after his ban time span and then got caught cheating(the clear stuff not the doubtful one) again id say screw him and go for a livetime ban since he cant be trusted and works the system...
phew
/end textwall
edited for anti-smiling issues...argggg and edited again for grammar/clarifications T_T my english sucks
On August 31 2009 21:19 Slow Motion wrote: I am against capital punishment for hackers as I am fundamentally opposed to the death penalty. Any other form of punishment is okay though.
On August 31 2009 21:30 QibingZero wrote: As everyone else has said, ladder abuse is much less of a crime than the others (and glitching isn't as serious as the other two, but still affects another player). I'm not going to go on and on, as I think all the points I could make on that subject have already been made.
However, there is a note about 'punishment'. Is it really more punishment that a person is banned from TL than it would be if they had stayed? Just think about it - if clazz had not been banned, every single post he made for a while would be followed up with hate. No one would trust anything he did, either. Regardless of the amount of work he might put into trying to become a full member of the community again, there will still be people who will dislike him for hacking. Is that really less punishment than being banned?
If we were worried about punishment, we'd let the community take care of it. I don't think this is TL's stance though. The idea is not that TL feels the need to punish, it's that TL is a place that is strongly against hacking and does not accept members who hack. We sit here and revere the Korean scene and it's progamers on a daily basis. We hold their accomplishments as the pinnacle of what you can achieve in not only this game but in all of e-sports. And out of everything there is not even a thought of hacking. In the end, hacking is the absolute antithesis of all that TL.net is about. It insults the game itself: from LAN parties with friends who all have 50apm, all the way up to the OSL finals.
We simply love Starcraft - that's what this comes down to. We love this game too much to tolerate it being degraded into the ground.
Its not so much about "punishment." In my opinion, we just want them to gtfo. now. Yes, I agree, no one will trust hackers/abusers once they abuse. edit: sorry I didnt read your post carefully. I agree totally.
why are some of you lumping forgiveness and punishment together? If someone wrongs you and you forgive them, they can still be punished to the full extent of the law. Forgiveness just means that you don't hold a personal grudge against them, but that does not mean they are not punished. This is true in the Bible as well as our current everyday laws.
Seriosly why every hacker is banned on tl.net this a forum for discusions and news no need to get ban on tl.net at all even if he is an hacker scum.
Leave tha banning where it actualy matters like iccup, leagues , tournaments , rankings they should get 1 year ban for first offence and permaban for 2nd.
On August 31 2009 22:20 WeSt wrote: Ban someone from this website because he hacked in Starcraft? That's just dumb in my opinion. TL.net is much more than a simple Starcraft discussion board, and I'm kind of disapointed on some admin's decisions regarding this hacking wave. TL.net has some features most of the gaming websites don't, has some mature people with good discussions, that's why I choose these forums. Banning people because they hacked is imature and doesn't even make sense. If they hacked they should be banned from iccup, they violated it's rules not TL's.
He did hack in a community event, so your argument about only being banned from iccup is void. Also, are you always indifferent to how people act when you're not around. Your actions will always be reflected in how people see you, it doesn't matter where you do them.
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
People change over time, some will grow mature, some not. If caught the first time hack, a ban of at least 1 year, rather more, would be in place. And by ban I mean everywhere, TL, Iccup, every other fansite and every tournament. If caught hacking a second time after that, permaban from everything.
Ladder abuse by free wins
Just the same as hacking in my opinion. I can see why people would see it differently, but the goal and result is the same as above, and should be punished accordingly.
Observer cheating
An observer telling one of the players whats going on? Well, you don't have observers in ladder/tournament matches. In some random play/obs game, it doesn't really matter, in an imporant match, it would be the same as hacking.
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
This is hard to really punish, because different tournaments have different rules, e.g. Storks observer over turret at WCG. The responsibility here lies in the admins of the ladder/tournament to decide how they want to punish offenders.
Doso pretty much ended this thread like 5 pages ago, but I want to reiterate what he said here so I can comment on it:
1. Ban, 2 Years. 2. 3-6 Penalty Points. Ban 4 weeks to 3 months 3. Observer cheating: see 1. 4. Depends on the glitch. Usally freewin for the opponent, can be awarded with further penalties.
4 is the only one that could potentially be accidental; there is also the possibility of rule confusion between different tournaments. Thus, it gets the least penalty.
2 is stupid, but ultimately doesn't directly take points from someone else. Besides, the only reason to do that is to brag about your rank; being banned for abusing means no one will ever care about your rank again.
1 and 3 are the same thing, and it's intolerable. Hacking is the opposite of everything competitive gaming stands for. The only thing to be careful of here is someone getting set up (say on shared iCCup account, or having hacker put the hacks on the users machine in such a way he'll get caught without knowing he has hacks); that really shouldn't happen if the user is being a smart netizen, but it can make things slightly less cut and dry.
====
I 100% support the banning of clazzi, cheating in a tournament he was running is just... beyond words.
The best strategy imo would be to try and synchronize bans in the foreigner community. So, not only does the hacker get banned from iCCup, but they're effectively exiled from the english speaking starcraft world. Any StarCraft site that does not do this is almost condoning cheating with their silence.
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing. If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing. If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
I agree.
I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
The only light offense to me is observer "cheating" in a non-rated, non-tourney game, friendly game. For example, someone may observe a game to coach the weaker player & talk to them during the game. This could be known to opponent from the start, but unclear just from watching the rep.
For all other cases I would agree with the people arguing for a 1 (or 2) year ban for first time cheaters, and permanent bans for repeat offenders. No excuses or differential treatment.
Slightly off topic, but I feel there is no need to feel bad about banning people. In fact, you could say they banned themselves when they decided to cheat.
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing. If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
I agree.
I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
Relax. He is not gonna be banned forever and we all know it. If he doesn't hack in a year at the most he will be allowed to post again. In a couple more years his name will be cleared (mostly).
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing. If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
I agree.
I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
Relax. He is not gonna be banned forever and we all know it. If he doesn't hack in a year at the most he will be allowed to post again. In a couple more years his name will be cleared (mostly).
This is the biggest issue I've seen in TL.net. (and biggest drama bomb as well)
here is a message to Clazz himself. Honestly, I like Clazz and all. I mean to tell you honestly, I'd say that he is a very big contributor to TL and the permaban is really harsh and to the amount of time and effort contributing to the community.. It's just that cheating in his own tournament.. Man, what are you trying to prove there? I mean we would still like you, <3 your C-Walks and your pictures in touring in the USA. You don't need to prove that your the best in Starcraft just to be appreciated yo. We love you too much to care for what skill you have, It doesn't prove anything from your character. But now that they caught you for what you've done. It's really hell to get redemption back. For me, your still the man just that you ain't trustworthy as of the moment.
To the TL.net staff, Yes, the people here are awesome and you regulate this site like it depends on your life, which makes this site the heart of eSports. It's really hard for you guys to perma-ban a contributing member to society, I mean it's like shooting your favorite dog in the head because of biting or chewing on your favorite shoes. But somehow, you guys know there are second chances. Maybe, just maybe there is still hope to this kid. He might change for the better in a little while, then learn that in life you can't get ahead because of cheating/stealing.
But for the mean time just think about it, read his post, if he really deserves a second chance or not. It really depends if your going to be very strict with the rules or provide second chances.
Btw, I found out that Scorpion guy (the dude that made a wall of text on how destroyed clans and hacking shit in bnet, had his second chance) why not clazz yo! :p
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing. If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
I agree.
I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
There is a pretty big difference between a real life crime and the internet.
I mean look at it this way. If a Baseball player is caught using illegal substances that gave him an unfair advantage over other players. Should he only be temp banned for 60 days and then allowed to play with no other penalties? What is to stop him from doing it again? That is why you see most players "retire" or basically never rejoin the sport. There IS no going back once you are caught. You can't change your name/appearance to get back into the sport. Now, you can be forgiven of such crimes but the public usually takes a long time to forgive and forget.
It's the same with StarCraft except people use the "internet" factor of: "Oh. I'll just change my name and never change my ways. Nobody will ever find out and I can keep hacking." which is why you still see KNOWN hackers STILL hacking. They think they won't get caught again because they are on a smurf. They KNOW better but they STILL think they can get away with it. You HAVE to be 100% strict or people will just keep doing it and this enables others to think: "Oh wow. This guy was caught hacking and was only banned for 30 days. That's not so bad. I can deal with that. Let me hack too and boast to all my friends how good I am."
No Tolerance. Period. It's the only way to stop hacking and prevent other weak willed souls from "following the crowd." Hackers can be forgiven over time. Look at Testie. He has done a great job of redeeming himself and providing the community with respectable posts. It took time, but it happened. Look at KawaiiRice. Last year EVERYBODY hated him for what he did but now he's an acceptable poster again. Like I said. The public will eventually forgive and forget but only if said hacker starts working toward redeeming himself.
"Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
On September 01 2009 01:24 Saracen wrote: "Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
Yes, I agree and the moral of the story here is: + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2009 01:24 Saracen wrote: "Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
Uhh. Really? Nobody knows about Zero Tolerance? Not to mention, every single tournament EVER created on any respectable site has never said: "Hacking Allowed." In fact, they post almost the same ruleset as iccup and say: "Anybody caught will be removed from the tournament." Now you're not banned from anything other then that tournament but believe me, people take notice and will begin to think differently of you and/or not invite you to any more tournaments.
On top of that, why would ANYBODY just assume hacking is okay in the first place? Honestly? Is cheating in real life acceptable? Granted some people get away with it for awhile but guess what. In the end. They get caught. This is the same situation. This site has always been very negative to hacking/abusing of any kind. Just because you "didn't know" won't save you. Not even in a court of law. It is up to the person to find out and understand the rules of the system said person is going to take part in. Not act the fool and try to be ignorant.
On September 01 2009 01:24 Saracen wrote: "Zero Tolerance" is fine as long as it's made clear and well-known to the public. In this case, it's possible that some of the hackers were unclear as to what TL's reaction would be. Being more vocal about "Zero Tolerance" could help obviate future hackers, as well.
Uhh. Really? Nobody knows about Zero Tolerance? Not to mention, every single tournament EVER created on any respectable site has never said: "Hacking Allowed." In fact, they post almost the same ruleset as iccup and say: "Anybody caught will be removed from the tournament." Now you're not banned from anything other then that tournament but believe me, people take notice and will begin to think differently of you and/or not invite you to any more tournaments.
Not to mention. Why would ANYBODY just assume hacking is okay in the first place? Honestly? Is cheating in real life acceptable? Granted some people get away with it for awhile but guess what. In the end. They get caught. This is the same situation. This site has always been very negative to hacking/abusing of any kind. Just because you "didn't know" won't save you. Not even in a court of law. It is up to the person to find out and understand the rules of the system said person is going to take part in. Not act the fool and try to be ignorant.
I agree, but my point was TL-specific. Also, to be honest, it's hard to see the "Zero Tolerance" in the page you linked for a casual peruse-r of the rules. I mean, if it's not bolded and in caps (or in some way made to stand out), people just aren't going to pay all too much attention to it - not that it's iCCup's fault - they have to lay down all of the rules in the rule page, not just hacking rules, ofc...
Map hacking / program hacking - 10/10 (destroys other ppl's play!) Ladder abuse by free wins - 5/10 (id ont give a damna actaully) Observer cheating - 2/10 (whothehell falls for that?) Using illegal in game glitches - 1/10 (ohm, which wasn't fair was patched, which remained is useable after me)
It doesn't matter what type of cheating it is. Cheating is cheating. Ban them until they prove themselves worthy. If they are never deemed worthy and are still obnoxious shady shit piles, leave them at the gate.
On September 01 2009 01:51 MYM.Testie wrote: It doesn't matter what type of cheating it is. Cheating is cheating. Ban them until they prove themselves worthy. If they are never deemed worthy and are still obnoxious shady shit piles, leave them at the gate.
There's a lot of people that are very eager to dish out permanent punishments here, which is understandable, and certainly more understandable than hacking/cheating in the first place, but I would be interested to know how the TL staff feel about this:
Would you rather have a solid community contributor, with a history of hacking (could be just one isolated incident), on your forums, or 50 (non-hacking) forum members that don't contribute anything at all?
I know this seems like a silly question, probably, but I think it's worth thinking about.
I've never hacked/cheated in a multiplayer (computer) game and don't really understand that mindset, but if I had done so, for whatever reason and to whatever degree, I would like my community contributions to be taken into account.
I personally think that a reasonable punishment would be to ban the hacker from any community tournaments for a period of time, as well as sending their name and known IDs to iCCup for them to deal with it, possibly to ban them from laddering for a while. These punishments could be extended for repeat offences.
Name and shame them on the forums, by all means, but why ban them from posting, unless they are publicly defending, promoting or otherwise justifying their behavior?
Opinions similar to mine have already been stated numerous times - however, I think it would be interesting to point out that while scrimming with Clazz, he often spoke how he used to hack in Counter-Strike (1.6). That being said, when we scrimmed with him, he was awful and definitely not cheating in that . Too bad, I liked the guy.
On September 01 2009 05:04 jtype wrote: There's a lot of people that are very eager to dish out permanent punishments here, which is understandable, and certainly more understandable than hacking/cheating in the first place, but I would be interested to know how the TL staff feel about this:
Would you rather have a solid community contributor, with a history of hacking (could be just one isolated incident), on your forums, or 50 (non-hacking) forum members that don't contribute anything at all?
I know this seems like a silly question, probably, but I think it's worth thinking about.
I don't think this is worth talking about - it's purely a hypothetical that isn't really relevant to the argument here. People are drawing these relations between hacking and contributing. They are unrelated. If i hacked in a tournament i would expect you to IP ban me - the same for any staff member. Hacking is not only a huge disrespect to your opponent but the people who spend countless hours organizing and administrating tournaments/leagues etc. There is no relation between contributing and hacking - there are hundreds of contributors on Teamliquid who do not hack, nor have they ever dreamed of doing so. Hack = ban. That simple.
We're not saying Hackers can never be forgiven. Just that it takes awhile. You can't come back in like 3 weeks and go "OKAY GUYZ! I R BETUR!" ala Combat-EX and expect everything to be ok.
my opinion is that everyone is young and stupid for a while, and hopefully they grow up it is also that people are easily influenced nomatter their age, since cheating/trolling with friends is FUN as FUCK
I think putting a finite time limit on a ban for hacking (at least in the community sense) is a big mistake. Hacking should be make so inexcusable that no one would dare risk it, lest they meet the same fate as "good" people before them. Let this be a lesson - if you hack, we will find you and destroy you.
* Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc) * Ladder abuse by free wins * Observer cheating * Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
1: In my opinion, this is the least forgivable of the rest. It actually alters the gameplay giving an extremely unfair advantage
2: This is a problem, but not as bad as using an actual hacking program or something. It's easy to find abusers and see that they are complete noobies!
3: Almost as bad as #1
4: The only in-game 'glitch' I'd consider bad is allied-mines, Because you should always be un-allied to your opponent or you apparently want to have a peace treaty with them :D
Stacked worker -> Attack is a part of the game that hasn't been fixed, I really don't consider it that big of a deal. I actually use it to defend ling rushes (if you time it correctly, it can work great)
On September 01 2009 06:42 Kennigit wrote: I think putting a finite time limit on a ban for hacking (at least in the community sense) is a big mistake. Hacking should be make so inexcusable that no one would dare risk it, lest they meet the same fate as "good" people before them. Let this be a lesson - if you hack, we will find you and destroy you.
Hacking, Ladder abuse and observer cheating I would rate all in the same category. Game glitches are a sort of lame move, but not as big of a problem imo. Ladder abuse and obs cheating are a little higher for me personally just because it's more of a character flaw than using a third party program to increase your chances of winning. People can stop hacking because they get caught or whatever, but obs cheating and ladder abuse is a little different.
Specifically with someone like Clazziquai, I think a long temp ban should have been in order other than a permaban just because he's put a lot into the community and a lapse of judgment, albeit lame, is still a lapse. I think someone said in the ban list thread that he hacked in his own tournament he put on and that's far worse than him hacking in the first place to rank up. So, that might have warranted the permaban over a long temp ban.
EDIT: Eh, after thinking about it a bit more, I think not giving a permaban to someone who has contributed to the community would set a pretty bad precedent. So, never mind.
I'm adamantly against hacking or abusing in any form, as I hold the spirit of fair competition in high regard. If this were my site, I'd be doing just what you're doing now -- ruthlessly banning offenders permanently. Abusers are in the minority so it doesn't harm the community to remove the cancerous element. Now, that said, I can also see the virtues of just selectively banning offenders from the BW and Strategy forums, and perhaps marking their post headers as such with a specific icon. That way you keep the members who contribute to the site in other ways (say, to the General or Sports & Games forums) without having to get rid of them completely.
I'd be okay with either way, but in both situations the ban (whether from the entire site or from the BW/Strategy forums) should be permanent in my opinion.
theres so many more productive things that can be done with hackers if they are willing to relapse, community service just like in real life being the best example I saw. sure ban them for life...until they do there service to the community.
I see no reason to ever give second chances to people who cheat. There are too many people passionate to give it their all to win by doing it fairly that there should be no room for those who want to abuse that trust players give one another.
I always felt the SC community was way too relax, if you look at CS people feel much more harshly, you cheat then you're done as far as leagues go. Especially going forward with things, presumably, getting bigger and bigger I just see no reason to give people second chances when they're often already given benefit of the doubt. People have to accept responsibility for actions and a way to cheat and still being able to come back means little.
Game glitching is on the same par as 3rd party hacks unless they're minor minor glitches, but all the same its trying to get an unfair advantage. It ultimately boils down to the fact that the individual felt they needed to do something in order to get ahead which in and of itself makes it wrong to do.
Permanent ban and permanent ex-communication from the community without remorse. Harsh consequences should be warranted in Starcraft just as the are in every other legitimate sport out there, ever invented by mankind. Without the severity of punishment there is no real way to make sure that hacking never occurs again. It's such a fucked up thing to do it makes me sick.
Once a hacker always a hacker, burn them to the ground!
On September 01 2009 05:04 jtype wrote: There's a lot of people that are very eager to dish out permanent punishments here, which is understandable, and certainly more understandable than hacking/cheating in the first place, but I would be interested to know how the TL staff feel about this:
Would you rather have a solid community contributor, with a history of hacking (could be just one isolated incident), on your forums, or 50 (non-hacking) forum members that don't contribute anything at all?
I know this seems like a silly question, probably, but I think it's worth thinking about.
I don't think this is worth talking about - it's purely a hypothetical that isn't really relevant to the argument here. People are drawing these relations between hacking and contributing. They are unrelated. If i hacked in a tournament i would expect you to IP ban me - the same for any staff member. Hacking is not only a huge disrespect to your opponent but the people who spend countless hours organizing and administrating tournaments/leagues etc. There is no relation between contributing and hacking - there are hundreds of contributors on Teamliquid who do not hack, nor have they ever dreamed of doing so. Hack = ban. That simple.
OK, fair enough. That's actually a reasonable viewpoint from TL staff, which is all I was hoping for.
On September 01 2009 00:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Zero Tolerance. You get caught hacking. You're out. You know what you're doing. If you are abusing a ladder. You're out. You know what you're doing.
It's not like you're a fucking baby at birth here. You KNOW better.
I agree.
I don't agree. Same can be said about all crimes. Should we just put a life sentence on all crimes? That's fucked up!
This isn't about being a criminal, it's about shaking the very foundation of Starcraft as a legitimate sport. Every hacker caught is another point added to the list of reasons why some people wouldn't take this game seriously. This is about destroying the game itself in the eyes of potential future fans.
No hacking is basically the ONLY rule in competitive video gaming. If you break that rule you're fucked. End of story.
I don't think hacking is that bad. Its not really that great of an advantage really. I would actually argue that you need more skill to hack. You have more things to pay attention to and you have to constantly hide your cheating which forces you to make way more calculations than a non-hacker. Take it from me, I hack all the time.
Map hacking // program hacking = Life long ban. Please. Those ******** ***holes ruin SC and ICCUP completely and selfishly. First of all, it's extremely difficult to detect and prove that they are hacking, so usually they are allowed to ruin games for years. Second of all, hacks encourage other people who don't hack TO hack. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em? It ruins the competitive atmosphere, breeds distrust and suspicion, and completely ruins the game. Finally, hackers almost never admit to making a mistake until they are caught. Fucking bullshit. They were going to ride their hacks for as long as they could, not giving a flying fuck to others.
If you hack, life long ban. 0 tolerance. It's the best way to deal with those jerks.
Ladder Abuse by free wins = A relatively victimless crime. Much easier to catch and detect, the person who does it is an idiot since it accomplishes 0 purpose, and if they play against real opponents at the "supposed" level they reached, they'll get raped. Yay. Still, it should be punished, since if ENOUGH people did this, it'd total ruin the ladder. Some sort of minor ban should be called into effect.
Uh... What's obs cheating? lol?
As for using illegal in-game glitches, some sort of moderate punishment is needed. Luckily, these aren't that hard to detect, so again, the punishment doesn't need to be as severe, but if they do ruin games. Some moderate ban should be in effect.
This thread made me change my opinion. For those who hacked to "see what it was like", curiosity killed the cat; the cat did not get a second chance. Any type of cheating should result in a permanent ban.
On September 01 2009 06:42 Kennigit wrote: I think putting a finite time limit on a ban for hacking (at least in the community sense) is a big mistake. Hacking should be make so inexcusable that no one would dare risk it, lest they meet the same fate as "good" people before them. Let this be a lesson - if you hack, we will find you and destroy you.
Tottaly support this. Like I stated in my previous post. Thank sweet Jesus that TL admins share my & many other (non-cheating ppls) point of view! Well said!
I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game and being banned form ICCUP + the # 1 gaming website in the world for any amount of time at all has to truly be heartbreaking. I can't really see these guys sticking around the e-sport scene for more than a year without involvement in this community or on ICCUP. I think that a 60 or 90 day ban for first time offenders is more in the way of fairness and maybe would serve as a "punishment" rather than an "exile".
Besides their ban their reputation will most certainly be tainted in this forum as long as they are around. And lest anyone forget that in the past they have been proven to be a hacker i think they should have their very own avatar Hester Prynne style .
On September 01 2009 09:22 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game
On September 01 2009 09:22 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game
Which guys? The ones who cheat?
Most. I think that mostly anyone who still plays SC and frequents TL or any other SC site cares.
On September 01 2009 09:22 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game and being banned form ICCUP + the # 1 gaming website in the world for any amount of time at all has to truly be heartbreaking. I can't really see these guys sticking around the e-sport scene for more than a year without involvement in this community or on ICCUP. I think that a 60 or 90 day ban for first time offenders is more in the way of fairness and maybe would serve as a "punishment" rather than an "exile".
Besides their ban their reputation will most certainly be tainted in this forum as long as they are around. And lest anyone forget that in the past they have been proven to be a hacker i think they should have their very own avatar Hester Prynne style .
On September 01 2009 09:22 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game and being banned form ICCUP + the # 1 gaming website in the world for any amount of time at all has to truly be heartbreaking. I can't really see these guys sticking around the e-sport scene for more than a year without involvement in this community or on ICCUP. I think that a 60 or 90 day ban for first time offenders is more in the way of fairness and maybe would serve as a "punishment" rather than an "exile".
Besides their ban their reputation will most certainly be tainted in this forum as long as they are around. And lest anyone forget that in the past they have been proven to be a hacker i think they should have their very own avatar Hester Prynne style .
I highly disagree when you assert that hackers care about this community, how the game is perceived, or it's longevity or legitimacy as an e-sport.
If they don't like the terms they shouldn't abuse the game and most of all, they shouldn't abuse the rest of us, the community that might have had to play unfair games after we gave them the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. They had their chance, and good riddance.
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote: To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Are they the same? Are they different?
I haven't read the rest of the thread so I'm posting this in the dark.
Hacking: depends on who you're hacking against. Hacking in a competitive environment, especially a tournament/clanwar, or against your friends is definitely gaming's equivalent of murder. Hacking against randoms on b.net is more like manslaughter - you still deserve to be punished, but you can be redeemed. Hacking against your friends makes you a grade A asshole.
Ladder abuse: petty crime. Abusers deserve more ridicule than punishment, unless the abuse was done to secure a spot in a tournament. Getting free wins for the sole purpose of increasing your iccup rank is a victimless crime imo.
Obs cheating: similar to hacking in that context is important. Obs cheating in a tournament would be a major scandal, whereas cheating in a friendly game is just a dick move that will probably ensure no one ever lets you obs again.
Glitches: really depends on what the glitch is. Obs over turret isn't bad, but stacking workers and abusing the waypoint bug is. If the glitch rises to the level of a hack (like drone canceling), it should be treated as hacking; if it doesn't have much impact on the game, it's worth a warning unless done repeatedly.
On September 01 2009 09:22 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game
Which guys? The ones who cheat?
Most. I think that mostly anyone who still plays SC and frequents TL or any other SC site cares.
Well, if they're cheating or hacking, then they obviously care less about the game and more about winning.
On September 01 2009 09:22 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote: I think that a 1 - 2 year ban is too long in a gaming community. These guys obviously care a lot about the game
Which guys? The ones who cheat?
Most. I think that mostly anyone who still plays SC and frequents TL or any other SC site cares.
Well, if they're cheating or hacking, then they obviously care less about the game and more about winning.
True man. Thats why the situation sucks. Some people do care and still do mindless shit. Play with fire and you get burned i guess. There is no way i could consider hacking i care too much about the game, the competitiveness, and the time and effort everyone puts into it. Maybe im just too soft on people because i know how much i would hate being banned
I think MH and Obs help are the worst. When you lose to these people who you know are worse than you it's really hard not to get demotivated. And to make things worse it's almost impossible to really find out whether they did it or not.
I don't get the obsession with free wins. Who cares if you're A but still lose to D? And the in game bugs you can easily get caught for anyways. (I think?)
Hacking: Permanent ban. No questions asked once a hacker always a hacker. Because we know once you start winning vs betters players with hacks then you need to start using them(spades etc)
Ladder abuse: Yeah this is deserving of a season ban or something because it takes away from this who actually play to get the rank.
Obs cheating: Never let them obs another important game atleast again. Friendlies who gives a fuck money isnt ont he line or anything.
Glitches: Depends on if they do it repeatidly to gain an advantage or if it happens by accident(its happened to us all before) if they do it alot then they should get banned for it.
I'm surpised at all the responses in favor of a 90 day. I'm all for a flat out ban for cheating, with the possibility of working one's way back. But I'm thinking in terms of year(s), not 90 days. That's way too short.
No Tolerance. Period. It's the only way to stop hacking and prevent other weak willed souls from "following the crowd." Hackers can be forgiven over time. Look at Testie. He has done a great job of redeeming himself and providing the community with respectable posts. It took time, but it happened. Look at KawaiiRice. Last year EVERYBODY hated him for what he did but now he's an acceptable poster again. Like I said. The public will eventually forgive and forget but only if said hacker starts working toward redeeming himself.
The idea of zero tolerance co-existing with long-term forgiveness seems both hypocritical and vague to me. Can somebody elaborate for instance what Testie and KawaiiRice did to get their permabans removed? (assuming they were permabanned.)
since this is partially related to clazz, i'll ask about it here.
he probably wont be allowed to play in any more TL related tournaments. but what about events in real life like blizzcon? would you allow him in to the party? what about LANs? some people know him personally and they say that he's a pretty nice guy. so what's the opinion on that?
On September 01 2009 14:42 29 fps wrote: since this is partially related to clazz, i'll ask about it here.
he probably wont be allowed to play in any more TL related tournaments. but what about events in real life like blizzcon? would you allow him in to the party? what about LANs? some people know him personally and they say that he's a pretty nice guy. so what's the opinion on that?
I think that him being banned from TL should not impede any personal real life encounters with him, be they TL or SC related. He did nothing to hurt TL - only his own reputation. Hence, I don't see why him coming to a TL party or meet-up is an issue. I don't see him hacking in the future either way. He's good in my books, I'm definitely meeting up with him soon.
On September 01 2009 06:42 Kennigit wrote: I think putting a finite time limit on a ban for hacking (at least in the community sense) is a big mistake. Hacking should be make so inexcusable that no one would dare risk it, lest they meet the same fate as "good" people before them. Let this be a lesson - if you hack, we will find you and destroy you.
I agree with this. Hacking isn't innocent, it destroys the competetive aspect of BW and therefor sucks for Esports and competetive gaming.
Everyone seems to agree that a ban is necessary for a hacker.
Some people believe a lengthy ban will suffice as a first warning - their reputation will be tarnished from being caught. Others believe that an outright ban is necessary.
Now, there are two sides to this story. By having outright bans, you discourage hacking from happening. On the other hand, you can completely exile prominent members of TL if they are the ones caught.
There is no way to win in this situation. Either way has downsides.
Personally, I am a believer in second chances, and there are no second chances in exile.....
On September 02 2009 22:52 lMPERVlOUS wrote: Everyone seems to agree that a ban is necessary for a hacker.
Some people believe a lengthy ban will suffice as a first warning - their reputation will be tarnished from being caught. Others believe that an outright ban is necessary.
Now, there are two sides to this story. By having outright bans, you discourage hacking from happening. On the other hand, you can completely exile prominent members of TL if they are the ones caught.
There is no way to win in this situation. Either way has downsides.
Personally, I am a believer in second chances, and there are no second chances in exile.....
Well, if they hack I don't think they are that prominent no matter how or what they post. Status shouldn't save you from something we all hate; hacking.
Like psyonic_reaver said, hackers know that they are doing something fucking stupid and yet they do it. There's really no excuses for it, but I do believe everyone deserves a second chance in this case. If you don't hack 2 years later your cool.
On September 02 2009 23:40 Foucault wrote: Well, if they hack I don't think they are that prominent no matter how or what they post. Status shouldn't save you from something we all hate; hacking.
No, status should not save you from hacking, however, if that person has contributed a lot to the community, and will likely contribute more, the whole community suffers from an outright ban, not just the hacker.
Also - technically, Chaoslauncher is a hack. I only use it when I am observing games though. Does that mean I am a hacker? I'm sure there are a lot of other people on this site that use it too. Does that mean all of those players are hackers?
So, if you use a Maphack when you are observing a game, does that mean you are a hacker? Surely ICCUP's new method would catch the hack, even though it is not used for gaming purposes.....
Most of the hacking tools out there were made for a purpose, however, they leave room for abuse. If I'm up against a friend, and he sucks at Starcraft, I wouldn't mind playing him when he uses auto-mine and multi-unit control -> it will lead to a more fair and fun game for both of us. Does this mean he would be a hacker?
Yes, it's nice to say "BAN THEM", but in reality, where exactly is the line drawn? And how severe is it?
I believe in terms of hacking, context matters nothing. If you maphack or abuse, it doesn't matter if its against some random noob on East or in the TSL Finals. You're a scumbag cheater for doing it. The ONLY justification for hacking is if you tell your opponent that you're doing it, whether for some testing or curiosity. If they still play with you after that, fine.
There is obviously a double standard when it comes to good players and forgiveness. However, I don't think its as simple as we think. The better players are clearly going to be the ones that want forgiveness more, as BW is a bigger part of their lives and they've invested more time in it. Unknown or bad players can simply create a new identity.
Obviously there are players who hack yet can be very good without hack. That's not the point. The point is the deception and corruption of the spirit of competitive gaming. If you play someone it doesn't matter if its for money or if its for fun, there's a trust inherent in it. If you break that trust you deserve to be punished. There's really no other crime in our community (I guess BM, but often that's very subjective). There's no subjectivity or interpretation about hacking/abusing. You either do it or you don't.
I think you guys are treating hackers too much like rapists or child molestors, instead of burglars or someone convicted of DUI :l Yes I know that you guys all love this game to death, and so do I. However I believe that going for an outright ban, a year's ban, or even four months ban is too harsh for people who get caught hacking the first time. Most SC players aren't even adults yet, and they are bound to do stupid shit, like hacking.
In the world of Starcraft, even four months is a very long time. In four months, being banned from everything like ICCUP and TL can result in the said individual leaving Starcraft forever, or greatly reduce their interest in the game, which should be avoided at all costs imo. Justice should be handed down, but in not such a cold, heavy-handed manner. First time offenders should be given a temporary ban lasting for two-four weeks, which shows them that they will be punished for hacking, but we will give them a second chance. Second chance can be far more heavy, like a year's ban, or an outright ban since they should've gotten the message the first time though.
It's better to show mercy the first time than cold justice, in my humble opinion.
Addendum: Hacking in tournaments deserve very little or no mercy though, since usually there is money riding on the line with no second chances after you lose, rather than some rank in a ladder
Seriously, how many of you people can say with conviction that you never cheated before, whether in a game or in real life (on a test or something). "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone".
EPT
. Too bad, I liked the guy. 
