Up front, so there is no misunderstanding, I am making this thread for my own interest. There is no official TL position here.
I'm just trying to gather my own thoughts on the issue, and thought I could find the tenor of the community.
To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Are they the same? Are they different?
What is the appropriate punishment for people caught of these offenses? Should they be different, or is cheating cheating, no matter the form?
TL is full of inconsistencies. Some people are banned for life, but make new accounts and come back. How do you feel about this. Should there be forgiveness? Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things? How would you like to see them dealt with?
I don't play often so I'm not qualified to distinguish between the different offenses. However, I do believe in second chances. I think those who are shown to have cheated repeatedly deserve a chance to explain themselves and reform their behavior, but if they continue to repeat their actions after making a public apology or saying they will quit cheating then banning them from forums/events/ladders etc doesn't seem unfair to me.
[EDIT]
I just noticed the automated ban list and saw why you posted this. I think contributions do count for *something* but if I was caught hacking/cheating I'd expect to be called up on it.
I believe the first 3 is the SAME, but the last one MIGHT be different. The first 3 the mindset of the player is to get "easy wins by cheating" thats the MINDSET. The illegal gaming glitch might be a result of not knowing its illegal and what not.
The punishments should NOT be based on what they did to cheat, BUT their mindset and not the sort of cheat they chose to use, because all in all its all the same.
I think that people are often times TEMPTED by doing such things just because they're told not to. And they do deserve some sort of ban. But it should NOT be permanent.
I think such offenses should be like 1st offense: 90 day ban 2nd offense: 1 year ban 3rd offense: permanent ban.
Ladder abuse only effects the cheater himself, not others. Illegal in-game glitches are easy to prove and easy to report. Observer cheating/Map hacking are very hard to proof and sometimes it's frustrating. When I heard about a iCCup hack being out, I started to doubt people. I think the punishment should be the same: Ban, but allowed to rejoin the community after some time. There should definitely be forgiveness.
as some one who has been perma-banned before for mouthing off and so graciously let onto this website again by the tl staff, i fully believe in 2nd chances as people can change.
in terms of hacking: testie is a pretty good example. hacked and slowly got respect back from the community.
as for my thoughts on cheating: it is all the same...no exceptions. I dont care if its a script, a friend is helping, etc. doesnt matter.
I agree with NeverGG here and also believe in second chances.... society and this world itself is flawed and everyone is bound to make mistakes one point or another. Of course, it is a repeated offense and goes for a third time without getting the message once or twice, then a proper action should take place. However, as I have learned as such, I will put my 2 cents here that whatever the case: "a sin is a sin no matter how big or small it is". So there shouldn't be levels and determination of how big or small this person or that person hacked, abused and etc but rather if the dude abused something minor twice and got caught twice compared to the person who map-hacked once and got caught once, the person who got caught twice bear more sins since he should have gotten the message once. That's my views but in reality, TL itself is a strict and very moral site when it comes upon hackers, abusers and cheaters and these people who committed the sins should realize that to begin with....
I think that all parts should be taken into account. So a great contributer could be cut some slack, while a hacking newbie should be out of the door immidiatley.
I guess hacking in any form is the worst you can get, with ladder abuse a good second. The other two don't seem to be offenses on the same level to me. So imho perm ban for hackers, 90 day ban for ladder abusers, 2 day or 1 week bans for minor offenses, all scaling up after multiple offenses.
I think it's fair to be hardline about this, since honest play is the backbone of any community. On the other hand, people who already are part of said backbone are a difficult case that I think should be handled more according to the situation.
Map hacking is the worst. It wastes the time of the person you are playing with, which is totally selfish and unacceptable.
Illegal glitches is second worst. It also wastes your opponents time, but at least there's no trickery. It's obvious.
Ladder abuse is the least concerning. It's easy to catch, it doesn't waste players time (though it does waste admin's time) and though it's still awful and annoying, it's not as bad at the other two.
I don't know what observer cheating is. Whispering hints to a player? That's retarded and annoying, and probably on the same level as map hack.
I think the Map hacking / program hacking and Using illegal in game glitches > Ladder Abuse and Observer cheating, just because if the player doesn't have the adequate skill to handle players of their rank caliber then those two things aren't as critical, you can see someones base and react, but if your macro and micro is already lower than that of your opponent then bam, you lost. Offense wise, I think the mods and admins on TL have their system and rules there for a reason, and trying to change that wouldn't make too much sense. I'll use a bad analogy, if you do drugs say marijuana or cocaine, whose to say you'll only do those 2 drugs? Obviously if you've done one then heck you can do the others. In the same sense, if you Ob hack or Ladder abuse, they're taken with the same result - ban. So as long as the mindset to do any of these things show up then the punishment should be the same. As for the the idea of forgiveness, if people can prove their legitimacy and separation from the hacking scene and image, then sure why not let them back(clazz seemed like such a nice guy, he admitted to his mistakes - why not give him another chance?) But anyways this was way too long and probably has some contradictions, I'm sorta just speaking my mind atm.
personally i think that any punishment is legitimate for a cheater/hacker who is caught, if you break the rules you're asking for trouble and nothing, then, is unwarranted.
people do change, and perhaps those who hacked in the past will mature; but returning to the community should be earned and not assured by a 90 day ban as opposed to a permaban (that may or may not be lifted later).
i would rate 1 and 3 as worst, 2 doesn't really hurt anybody but is the most pathetic, and 4 could possibly be an accident (though im not sure exactly what #4 is? just an illegal glitch, like flying templar or something?)
I get very confused myself when it comes to these things.
Map hacking/program hacking/disc hacking are ridiculous and really show intent when they happen in ladder or tournament games. Similarly, ghosting is really disgusting when it happens in tournament/league games. These offenses seem grave and should be punished with long breaks.
Ladder abuse is frankly irrelevant because iCCup will just take away an abuser's stats, and with them, his credibility, so the harm is minimized.
Anything that happens on Battle.net or in casual/social games, while despicable, should not itself matter (except to keep such social hackers away from anything legitimate). However, the people who get kicks from that nonsense happen to be quick to flame and slow to contribute or be respectful and literate when it comes to TL serious business.
Though I do forgot to mention that when it all comes down to, second chances (and even third) usually happen upon special occasions and once you absolutely know and trust the person won't do it again (despite the fact he may in the future). All accounts should be considered and all, but one thing is for sure, in a democratic (or even absolute monarchy to some extent) point of view, if the mass public and the majority all says the same thing (regarding let's give this guy a second chance), then I think that itself is a good enough reason to overlook the fellow. Afterall, the real power in any country, community, and parties, is the voices of the people. Without the voices of the people, countries, communities, government cannot survive for long.
On August 31 2009 11:44 QuickStriker wrote: All accounts should be considered and all, but one thing is for sure, in a democratic (or even absolute monarchy to some extent) point of view, if the mass public and the majority all says the same thing (regarding let's give this guy a second chance), then I think that itself is a good enough reason to overlook the fellow. Afterall, the real power in any country, community, and parties, is the voices of the people. Without the voices of the people, countries, communities, government cannot survive for long.
I'm not sure I agree with "overlooking" but I do agree that public sentiment should be a barometer for how these things are dealt with. It is hard to deal with someone who is a good player, gets caught hacking, gets banned from TL, but then makes a new account 6 months later and is back.
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote: Up front, so there is no misunderstanding, I am making this thread for my own interest. There is no official TL position here.
I'm just trying to gather my own thoughts on the issue, and thought I could find the tenor of the community.
To start, how would you rate these offenses?
Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
Ladder abuse by free wins
Observer cheating
Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)
Are they the same? Are they different?
What is the appropriate punishment for people caught of these offenses? Should they be different, or is cheating cheating, no matter the form?
TL is full of inconsistencies. Some people are banned for life, but make new accounts and come back. How do you feel about this. Should there be forgiveness? Does what someone does outside the game (organization, contributions, etc) be factored into things? How would you like to see them dealt with?
Before I rank them I think it is important to point out that (in my opinion) the severity of each of these cases changes based on the situation. As a very light example, observer cheating in a play/obs game on US West isn't a big deal compared to observer cheating in a clanwar or a tournament. In the same way, plain free-winning isn't as big of a deal as if it were to take place during something like the TSL ladder prelims.
I'll rank them by how severe I think they are in a tournament setting. Like I said this would be something like TSL or Valor ladder preliminary qualifiers.
[*]Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc) [*]Observer cheating [*]Ladder abuse by free wins [*]Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in tournaments, etc)
I consider observer cheating and map hacking to be pretty much the same thing. For the most part, you get the same effect out of it.
Ladder abuse in an open ladder qualifier (where like the top 32 move on to group/bracket play) is next in my opinion because if you need to freewin your way into the next step of the tournament you probably wont make it too far. In addition, you are not only cheating yourself, but you are cheating someone else out of a spot in that next round.
The illegal game glitches are last in my opinion, however, they are not far from the other forms of abuse/cheating. While I believe one is slightly more or less severe than another, I feel they should be punished equally.
Finally, I believe that second chances should be given out. I am not exactly sure when though. I can say that I do not agree with a set rule on when people should be given the second chance. I feel that the player's history and the magnitude of the offense should both be taken into consideration.
I've played in practically every post-gamei ladder (some with anti-hack, some without), as well as a ton of clan leagues and stuff, so I've seen a ton of cheating.
The first and third offenses are the worst. The purpose of committing those acts is to gain an edge on your opponent who is potentially playing by the rules. This cannot be tolerated if the game is to have any integrity whatsoever. I believe a second chance should be given to these people, but only after a pretty long period of exile (a year would be a good start). There is another form of cheating that should get lumped in here, and that's account sharing. It was a fairly common practice in clan leagues for people to have someone else (presumably of higher skill) to play on their account in order to win CL games. Unfortunately, no one in the lower clan league divisions is likely to ever get caught for this, since hotkey checking isn't fun work.
I don't really know how to treat the freewin people. On the one hand, it is probably not as bad as using an in-game cheat or participating in observer collusion. What I just can't wrap my head around is WHY anyone would want to do it. It seems to be just a cry for attention (look at my shiny C+ rank and ignore the fact that all my games are 2:15 long!). From that perspective, I can't see how these offenders would have anything positive to offer to a public forum like this, since they are pretty egotistical. This goes for those people who play nothing but D/D- players in order to get a nice record, as well. I really can't affix a penalty to this one, but they are putting themselves at the mercy of the court when they do the crime, so whatever you choose is fair.
The glitch thing is a tough call, since you don't really know whether or not it's malicious. I suspect most people don't read the rules of a ladder/tournament before playing in it. They should still be held liable for what they do, but the first offense should be a light sentence (say, a month) just in case it wasn't intentional.
Everyone deserves a second chance, but the game is pointless unless cheating is dealt with harshly. I have no comment on how to deal with people who contribute heavily to the community and get caught. Let's just say I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to make that decision.
Honestly while reading those i can't say how i would rate them, considering i see them as all about the same, although that can differ depending on the situation. However finding out that you banned clazz and that other guy EDIT: Lol i thought he had a 3k post count, random 3 post noobie should be banned for hacking obviously. (and subsequently realizing that they were hackers 2 seconds later) made me really angry. I'm all for the anti-cheating stance, and admittedly i think hackers should be punished and they both were - BY BEING I.P. BANNED FROM ICCUP. There is absolutely NO reason to treat good, contributing members like that. I love this forum but Chill i'm kind of dissapointed that you did that.
I don't think you can arbitrarily rate those relative to one another free of context. For example, observer cheating in a friendly clan war vs observer cheating in the finals of a $1,000 prize tournament. I think it should be judged case by case.
I'm all about reformation and second chances, but you have to be willing to draw a line at some point with serial offenders (like Testie or LastShadow) and say that's it, you're done, get out.
On August 31 2009 12:01 Louder wrote: I don't think you can arbitrarily rate those relative to one another free of context. For example, observer cheating in a friendly clan war vs observer cheating in the finals of a $1,000 prize tournament. I think it should be judged case by case.
I'm all about reformation and second chances, but you have to be willing to draw a line at some point with serial offenders (like Testie or LastShadow) and say that's it, you're done, get out.
I think observer cheating should be like a 3 day ban, because honestly, who are you hurting in an obs game? Nobody. No points lost, but still, that's not an excuse, and it does get people frustrated, so I will say 3 day ban.
I think glitching and hacking should be perma ban forever and ever. On BW and TL/GG net. Because IMO they already know whats going to happen if they do it, and if they still decide too that means they really don't care and would do it again. I am very dissapointed Clazzi chose to hack, and I probably won't talk to him for a while, but I would somehow manage too.. He hacked in his own tourneys.. that's about as low as you get so I would really say perma ban. ( sorry for addressing hacking more the glitching ^^ )
Abuse imo should be a 90 day ban from TL.net and BW, because really, who is it hurting? Only the individual.
On August 31 2009 11:42 ryuu_ wrote: (clazz seemed like such a nice guy, he admitted to his mistakes - why not give him another chance?)
Do you think he would of admitted those mistakes if he wasn't caught? He would of called you a retarded fuck and never talked to you again.
EPT
