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Attitudes toward cheaters - Page 5

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eborp
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States266 Posts
August 31 2009 04:00 GMT
#81
If we are certain the account/person cheated, then I believe it should be ban account the first time, IP/cd key ban the second time. That is how blizzard deals with cheaters online, and I see no problem with that. People will have to start paying money if they want to keep cheating.
UMCP CSL NEEDS YOU!
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
August 31 2009 04:00 GMT
#82
On August 31 2009 12:48 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2009 12:44 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:40 travis wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:37 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote:
The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.

Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.



Why...

Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?

If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.

(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)


And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.

If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).


Because they find it fun to win?

And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)

A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.


Being hacked against ruins the game for me. Argument invalid.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
August 31 2009 04:01 GMT
#83
I think that HACKERS are the worst, by going out and downloading or making a hack you have your mind set on beating the system and making yourself look better. If you are in a game and its iwth friends and someone whispers you a counter or something like that i dont think its too big of a deal, people who abuse are just sad and arent worth the time to handle (except combat). People who use a glitch that is not allowed in tourneys are just bastards, which does not always guarantee a win BTW. So Hackers = worst, need banning Abusers = Sad and just idiots

Btw, Testie hacked? I did not know that, is it true or what?
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
SkepTicAL
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada872 Posts
August 31 2009 04:01 GMT
#84
On August 31 2009 12:42 FuDDx wrote:
I think any pr oven hacker should be allowed to continue to post and visit just give them a big HACKER sign next to their name. When they prove themselves worthy then they may go through a voting process to get it removed.

I do not approve of hacking/cheating/abuse of any kind. If anyone "needed" to hack it would be me with 11 years of playing and still a solid 8 0 apm.

I really dislike dishonesty in a game Ive loved for years, let alone in any sport/game it just seems silly to me. But then agian I dont and never will hack.

A proven hacker learned the game through looking at your base at all times. Hackers are as good as the legit people through a faster route, which imo is bullshit.
AeriALsLighT @AerialsLight
Duke
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States1106 Posts
August 31 2009 04:02 GMT
#85
On August 31 2009 12:34 travis wrote:
he should be being made fun of for being pathetic. It's not like he is new here, he kind of has a history. He isn't just "another player", he's clazziqual from tl.net



for the most part I agree with this, but the whole "for fun" spiel is laughable. ruining someone else's fun is not fun at all, it's selfish
IceCube
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Croatia1403 Posts
August 31 2009 04:05 GMT
#86
Imho there should be no forgiveness thoward cheaters. It could only send wrong msges to ppl who r thinking "hmm,will or will I not use it". And also imo the more harsh is the punishment the fewer r those who brakes them.
Forever Vulture.. :(
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-31 04:09:04
August 31 2009 04:06 GMT
#87
On August 31 2009 12:59 lazz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2009 12:48 travis wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:44 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:40 travis wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:37 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote:
The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.

Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.



Why...

Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?

If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.

(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)


And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.

If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).


Because they find it fun to win?

And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)

A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.


i see what you're trying to say, that in random games the opponent of the hacker probably won't even know that their opponent is hacking,ignorance is bliss sort of thing. I don't agree with it though, hacking or having an advantage over your opponent in any way shouldn't be tolerated. it just ruins the integrity of the game plain and simple. plus it stunts the non-hacker from improving their game because they lose due to something inexplicable (opponent being able to see the entire map)


Well i definitely agree that hacking shouldn't be tolerated. What I don't agree with is the approach.
It just seems to me that hackers will still hack, and just be as careful as possible. And then, once banned, they will probably keep hacking because they are banned and who cares.

This is why I think ostracizing and humiliating them is a much better approach. Motivation to actually improve theirselves.

On August 31 2009 13:00 PanN wrote:
Being hacked against ruins the game for me. Argument invalid.


I wonder how often you were hacked against and you didn't realize :-)

Or how many times you thought you were hacked against but actually were not.



On August 31 2009 13:07 PrideNeverDies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2009 12:48 travis wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:44 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:40 travis wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:37 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote:
The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.

Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.



Why...

Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?

If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.

(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)


And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.

If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).


Because they find it fun to win?

And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)

A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.


a hacker ruins the game for himself. that is the worst crime of all. friends don't let friends hack.


completely agree
EGLzGaMeR
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1867 Posts
August 31 2009 04:07 GMT
#88
anyone one trying to say hacking on iccup hurts no one is stupid... it ruins the game for alot of ppl.. if its ok for some to hack.. why wouldnt everyone hack.. and if they hack in a iccup ladder games what stops them from hacking in iccup tournaments or League's / CW's seriously sadist and travis ... (stop) (think) (type) in that order
also think of the ladders going (asl valor ect) on that retarded hackers beat them becasue they cheat.. if we allow ppl to get away with this.. what stops more from joining the darkside.. if ppl want to hack, go east and dont dare get involved with anything important.
PrideNeverDies
Profile Joined July 2009
Kazakhstan74 Posts
August 31 2009 04:07 GMT
#89
On August 31 2009 12:48 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2009 12:44 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:40 travis wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:37 kOre wrote:
On August 31 2009 12:33 Chill wrote:
The Starcraft community is way too forgiving. Which is why famous hackers continue to play. Which is why I feel TL takes a much harder line than anyone else.

Yeah he's right. I think that if you've been caught hacking or any abuse at all you should be perma-removed and earn the respect back over a long period of time. If after that you get caught a second time, just completely ban forever.



Why...

Why should someone be banned if they are caught hacking, when they are only playing for fun? Isn't that their business, and not yours?

If you don't want to play a hacker, don't play them again. I don't see the issue when nothing is on the line.

(note that I am only talking about non-tournament play)


And at this point, the TL.net community is about more than just starcraft.

If you're playing for fun why do you need to hack? You would be hacking so that you would win (which ruins the game for your opponent who could be playing seriously).


Because they find it fun to win?

And no, it doesn't ruin the game for the opponent. (though it can sometimes be annoying)

A good player will beat a worse maphacker most of the time anyways. Especially at higher levels.


a hacker ruins the game for himself. that is the worst crime of all. friends don't let friends hack.
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-31 04:15:56
August 31 2009 04:14 GMT
#90
It seems like certain people here are assuming that most people play ladder matches "just for fun", which is certainly not the case for a lot of people. A ladder is, by it's very nature, competitive. Therefore, the outcome of each and every match is important to those who seek to better their position on it.

iCCup is, first and foremost, a ladder system. If hacking takes place in melee (non-ranked, non-tournament "just for fun" matches), then it is between the hacker and the opponent only. But when hacking takes place in any ladder or non-ranking tournament match, the punishment should be universal and severe. Why? Because in a competitive game, the thing that matters most is balance and a level playing field.

Hacking undermines the very nature of competitive play and therefore has no place in it.
Doso
Profile Joined March 2008
Germany769 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-31 04:16:07
August 31 2009 04:15 GMT
#91
On August 31 2009 11:29 Manifesto7 wrote:
To start, how would you rate these offenses?
  • Map hacking / program hacking (multi command, disc, etc)
  • Ladder abuse by free wins
  • Observer cheating
  • Using illegal in game glitches (things that corrupt replays, are banned in torunaments, etc)



I am admin for the ESL Pro Series, Warcraft 3 though. In normal ladders this would be something like this:

1. Ban, 2 Years.
2. 3-6 Penalty Points. Ban 4 weeks to 3 months
3. Observer cheating: see 1.
4. Depends on the glitch. Usally freewin for the opponent, can be awarded with further penalties.

2 Year bans can be reduced to 6 months if some conditions are met - basicly spending some money, admiting it and doing some homework in the form of a 2000 word article.
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
August 31 2009 04:15 GMT
#92
I rated program / map hacking as 3rd, last would go for glitches since almost nobody uses it anyway and even so it's not really game breaking (read not hydra stack)
Ladder abuse, and observer cheating in tournament are just simply wrong.
Map hack is 3rd because of the ladder abuse being in priority. If map hack was used to abuse ladder then it's the same rule as the first two. However don't see it wrong being used 1 or 2 times for fun or training purpose.
I already talked about it 10000 times in the past so i won't bother explain again why you shouldn't ban 100% of the map hackers.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
Nazzick
Profile Joined December 2008
United States96 Posts
August 31 2009 04:18 GMT
#93
On August 31 2009 13:15 RaiZ wrote:
I rated program / map hacking as 3rd, last would go for glitches since almost nobody uses it anyway and even so it's not really game breaking (read not hydra stack)
Ladder abuse, and observer cheating in tournament are just simply wrong.
Map hack is 3rd because of the ladder abuse being in priority. If map hack was used to abuse ladder then it's the same rule as the first two. However don't see it wrong being used 1 or 2 times for fun or training purpose.
I already talked about it 10000 times in the past so i won't bother explain again why you shouldn't ban 100% of the map hackers.


Don't u think hacking in general is a form of ladder abuse?
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
August 31 2009 04:23 GMT
#94
On August 31 2009 13:06 travis wrote:
I wonder how often you were hacked against and you didn't realize :-)

Or how many times you thought you were hacked against but actually were not.


And what exactly does that prove? That some hackers are so subtle that they can win without alarming an inexperienced opponent? And that hacking is so prevalent that many people are now paranoid?

Does that make hacking any less of a problem?


Stop trying to be clever.
-fj.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Samoa462 Posts
August 31 2009 04:29 GMT
#95
I just think that stop lurker and allied mines should have the same legality status, whether legal or illegal.
Hyde
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia14568 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-31 04:31:51
August 31 2009 04:31 GMT
#96
I feel that the first three are all to gain an edge, they are just as bad as one another, the fourth I'm not too sure, like someone mentioned, some people don't read the rules...(note - please read rules if you're new). Cheating is cheating, it's not like Clazz was new here, he has seen and knows what happens when people cheat. There is no excuse for what he did even if he has contributed, I'm glad mods here have stuck to their guns so far despite people thinking they have been too harsh, we need to be harsh.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't give him a second chance, he will get one and he deserves a second chance, but not now and not in 90 days, he has been perm banned because 90 days is max, the mods can undo the perma ban any time they want. Someone mentioned a year as a good starting point, I agree.

The thing that really boils my blood is that he hacked in a community tournament that he organised...geez
Because when you left, Brood War was all spotlights and titans. Now, with the death of the big leagues, Brood War has moved to the basements and carparks. Now, Brood War is unlicensed brawls, lost teeth, and bloody fights for fistfulls of money - SirJolt
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-31 04:37:09
August 31 2009 04:34 GMT
#97
On August 31 2009 13:18 Nazzick wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2009 13:15 RaiZ wrote:
I rated program / map hacking as 3rd, last would go for glitches since almost nobody uses it anyway and even so it's not really game breaking (read not hydra stack)
Ladder abuse, and observer cheating in tournament are just simply wrong.
Map hack is 3rd because of the ladder abuse being in priority. If map hack was used to abuse ladder then it's the same rule as the first two. However don't see it wrong being used 1 or 2 times for fun or training purpose.
I already talked about it 10000 times in the past so i won't bother explain again why you shouldn't ban 100% of the map hackers.


Don't u think hacking in general is a form of ladder abuse?

Obviously it is. What i want to say is that there are players who use map hack only for training purpose.
I even remember progamers/semi-pro using it for timings purposes. But don't get me wrong, just because progamers uses it doesn't mean that you have to. For example, using map hack in an iccup game but when you think he's about to type gg, you leave yourself, this way it's not a ladder abuse but rather a training game.
Banning map hacker for 2 years with no reasons is just plain retarded.
On August 31 2009 13:29 -fj. wrote:
I just think that stop lurker and allied mines should have the same legality status, whether legal or illegal.

I'd rather make hold lurkers illegal, otherwise that'd just make mines overpowered especially in tvp.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
Nazzick
Profile Joined December 2008
United States96 Posts
August 31 2009 04:34 GMT
#98
On August 31 2009 13:29 -fj. wrote:
I just think that stop lurker and allied mines should have the same legality status, whether legal or illegal.


Stop lurkers is not messing with the game settings and allied mines is.
MooCow
Profile Joined September 2008
1434 Posts
August 31 2009 04:41 GMT
#99
On August 31 2009 12:54 Kennigit wrote:
Travis just stop...

Thank you! I can't believe half of what Travis was saying...

I don't think someone that has been a contributing member of TL( clazz ) be perma banned but he should be banned for a decent period and be given a tag/icon for being a known hacker. Hacking in a tourney that he himself helped organize is really low.

Map hacking / program hacking should really deserve a severely long ban or permaban, map hacking really ruins everyones fun imo.

Ladder abuse by free wins I don't see as a huge deal since it mainly affects the person doing it alone.

Observer cheating same as map hacking, cheating is cheating.
Making history not reliving it.
Myxomatosis
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States2392 Posts
August 31 2009 04:41 GMT
#100
honestly this community is too fragile to condone hacking. regardless of what clazz did in the forum, the fact remains that there are many other members of this community who can contribute just as he did and organize tournaments as well. if you hack you should be perma banned. your id in broodwar should be effectively erased. if a hacker wants to start anew, he should make a new account and just start from scratch. hackers undermine starcraft in the absolute worst way possible.
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