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kdog3683
United States916 Posts
As for hacking and the treatment of it, I think it should be dealt with as similarly to steroids. If you are an average joe (clazzi) and just take steroids for fun and look good in the mirror (see 3v3zclut), then there really shouldn't be too much of a punishment besides people looking @ you with shame. However if you are a professional muscle builder / athlete ( hacking in a tournament / cw ) , the punishment should equal the stakes at large. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
they know it is wrong. they are shitting on everything this community stands for when they do it. i like hacker icon idea too, taints their legacy. the glitch abuse i don't see to be as big a deal, i think it is kinda arbitrary given that stop lurker is ok but obs over turret or plague in interceptor are not. easily detected, disqualify them from the tournaments / matches, don't invite back if there is a pattern. iccup seems to handle this ok on their own too. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
What makes me sad is that we're discussing about a Timed banned just because we recently saw Clazz get banned. Yes I miss Clazz, Yes I loved the guy but he still cheated. If Clazz (or any loved veteran poster) wasn't on that list, this conversation wouldn't be needed. Everyone would've just said "WELL BAN OBV THEY ARE SCUMS OF SC." Yes we lost a respected community member, but I don't believe just because we lost a respected community member we should be discussing whether 'banning' them for cheating is a harsh punishment. Any form of cheating = perm ban is my final answer. | ||
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RushWifDietCoke
United States488 Posts
On August 31 2009 12:24 Kennigit wrote: Your argument is that someone's history should have an effect on the punishment they get...that is not how the justice system works lol. You're right nobody gets a get out of jail free card but when the judges or jury make their decision they take into account the character of the individual and the situation they were in. If they have had previous offenses the punishment is worse and sometimes on first offense they receive a lesser punishment. Clazziquai deserves to be punished severely no doubt, but I think his character should play a role in the judgment. On August 31 2009 12:09 Manifesto7 wrote: But by not banning him, doesn't that send the message that we don't support a fair play environment? Doesn't his ban for hacking on iccup taint the contributions he does here, like his tournaments etc? We are a community that uses several different websites as a whole, I don't think you are a different person depending on which site you transgress on. Obviously there are different levels of cooperation between sites though. I can definitely understand this point of view. Yourself, other admin, top foreigners and many other contributors have worked hard to make TL what it is today. I think banning him will send a message of justice and fair play, however I think a permanent ban is too harsh. If Clazziquai is willing to change and admit his mistake then I think a more powerful message would be to forgive him. TL is a very firm website that takes no BS and I think everyone here is aware of that. But at the same time TL is like a big family. Some members are not as involved as much, such as myself but I still like to think of everyone here as my friend. Although I didn't know or ever talk to Clazziquai I will definitely miss him. It was definitely NOT alright for him to cheat and he should be punished but it isn't hard to sympathize with the frustration of losing and wanting to win so badly. He made a big mistake, he knew the consequences beforehand and maybe he accepts the punishment but I ask that you please see what he has to say at least, if you have not already. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
Icon Change: Announces to everyone that you are a CHEATER! Similar to those posts marked 'nuked', this gives everyone a terrible first impression of you, but all things considered, is not a very powerful threat in and of itself. Community Service: Two birds with one stone. Not only punishes the perpetrator either monetarily (maybe he could put up the prize money for a community tournament or something of the like) or time-wise (helping to organize events or w/e), but the community gets something out of it as well. Essay/Video Apology: Works to win the hacker back into the community. If well done, it could change alot of minds, if not...see combat-ex's video  Point Punishment: If they won some number of ICCUP points by cheating for them, take them away, and then some. I believe ICCUP has some kind of system like this in place already though. Combinations of these and other's similar in nature could provide ways for those who fucked up and ate of the devil's fruit a second chance, but only after they jump through some hoops. The specific offenses determine just how high they have to jump. Obviously these kinds of things and banning are not mutually exclusive. If someone is 'unfixable', BAN! | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
Nobody 'accidentally' has a 'slip of judgement' and maphacks. They DOWNLOAD the maphack, they SET UP the maphack, they probably TEST OUT the maphack, and then they use it in an important game to screw over their opponent. At any step in that process before the end, they could have stopped, and deleted the hack. They didn't, and they didn't because they knew full well what they were doing. The only exceptions I can think of are if the person in question is a young teenager or something, we all do stupid shit as kids. But if it's someone over 18, then hell no, they deserve no mercy. | ||
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
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Highways
Australia6105 Posts
It should be perma or 1-2 years ban at the very least. | ||
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saritenite
Singapore1680 Posts
- He's not banned - He's still around - He's really popular still Boxer contributed a lot to Starcraft, and the refs knew it. His popularity at that time probably saved him from the banhammer, and it allowed him to bring further innovations back into the community. Look at Clazz. He has admitted that he hacked, he contributes to the community, although on not as large a scale as any progamer or the mods, but still he does. The forums may condemn hacking, but a perma-ban is too rough on a contributing member. It's like cutting bridges away that could be used to resupply an army in war, on the premise that enemy troops can use it. Withdraw the guy's perma-ban, I say, give him a 1 year ban or 1/2 year ban, the period is really up to the mods' discretion (I'm in no position to judge a person's sentence, only feel that a perma-ban kills off options.) Addressing Mani's listed offenses. Maphacking / Program hacking Abusing the program should not be taken lightly, and a heavier punishment should be meted out. Ban the fellow and allow him back after x days, but take away all his privileges/forum functions. Give him a post a day and judge him from there. This would give the mods some form of examination power to determine whether the offender is going to correct his ways or not. Ladder Abuse by Free wins Should be awarded with a ban, then followed by a Combat_EX icon. After all, a rank is nothing unless (stated elsewhere in this thread) it helps the offender get into a tournament. Catching these people in the act just shows them up to the whole world, and the motivation to get a better rank appears to be for the nourishment of their epeens. Humiliation should shut these buggers down effectively. Observer cheating Should be brought up to refs of the ladder, the cheater banned from the ladder. If it's in a FFA or some UMS/ friendly games, punishment should depend on the players and their opinion. Ingame glitches Is quite a sensitive issue seeing how the ladder rules differ from ladder to ladder. I won't talk about this, I'm not too clear on how it should be treated as well. @ repeat offenders - After getting a second chance, and still relapsing, ban them forever. Second chances are golden and wasting one is heresy. @ mods - Might want to consider the direction of TL and adjust punishments according to the desired goal of TL. If we want to expand the site, perma-bans might be really harsh and prove a detriment, if applied to contributing members like Clazz. [EDIT] Out of curiosity, why was Fanatacist banned? | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
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epicdoom
United States489 Posts
Ladder Abuses - Ban Observer Cheating -BAN wtf Illegal glitches - If it's banned in tournaments, then it's banned. Ban I think hacking in a community tournament or anything run by TL warrants an immediate perma ban no questions asked. I think that if someone is hacking outside the reaches of teamliquid... 1) A warning should be stated in the TL 10 commandments about TL members and hacking 2) I like the idea of having some sort of icon or label indicating to everyone that the member is a hacker outside of teamliquid tournaments, etc. Maybe even not ranking up the member from the original drone/scv/probe in addition I don't think previous contributions should factor into the punishment given ban is ban no matter how much you've done, because you're just making competitive bw a shitty place for people who want to have fun. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
i realize that in the grand scheme of things hacking isn't too big of a deal, yeah you win more stupid games on the computer, great. the lack of consequences and anonymity of the internet really make it easy for the casual player to not think of other players as people too, rather just opponents. but in a tight close-knit community like this that values fair and skilled competition, it's simply inexcusable. this is why for me the fact that clazziquai was a high post-count, generally well-liked (or so it seems), and involved member (that had met other TL users in person!!) here at TL makes him outright disgusting - he knowingly hacked against people he claimed family. there's not much else you can do here to get your name shitted on so much. | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
I think that that much depends on the mindset of the cheater. "I'm going to cheat my way to victory fuck everyone else" "Lol I wonder how the game changes if I have full map the whole time" and "What? allied mines is illegal??" In real life, if somebody goes and a murder spree they clearly don't feel guilty during the murders and very likely won't (repeat offenders.). But if somebody kills/hacks once, gets caught and regrets it. (impossible to know for sure, but if they care enough to fake it, that means something too). I would then think that the two would receive different punishments, although both would be severe. Then, comes the situation in which cheating was conducted. In friendly game with people you know and your open about it then its clearly better than hacking to win money at serious tournaments. For ladder abusing, unless its to qualify for a tournament, or to deceive others into donating money then I really don't care to much. Sure the guy looks better on paper, but if he faces the opponents in the skill level he abused to, he'll quickly fall back down, or if he abused his way into my level, that's a free win. (Assuming I didn't abuse too). This doesn't mean he gets off free, but punishment should scale to the factor. Stealing a candy bar gets you a warning/fine, robbing a bank is jail time. Observer cheating also falls into the situational category, in CWs or tournaments should be severe punishment, but in fun 1v1 obs games it is more lenient. Especially if the players are all friendly and the seriousness is further reduced because an obser is actually nuke rushing somebody. Lying so people fall into a pit of death is bad. Lying so your prank works, not so bad. Glitches again depend on intent and situation trying to cheat a big win at a tournament where you should know the rules is clearly far worse than accidentally moving an obs over a turret in a friendly game. Speeding in an unmarked area versus going over the speed limit in nas car (Don't think theres actually is one unless theres a crash, but I couldn't really come up with anything for speeding) As for clazz, I think a perma ban is too much (since he seems guilty and fessed up when caught), but a 90-day ban would be too short considering it would allow people to weigh "hack and risk 90days or not?" Since he is contributing member this should add some leniency to him. (Its in the forum rules that vets get preferential treatment, although I don't think it meant for situations like this.) Also I think some public reminder that somebody is a cheater would serve as a better form of punishment then blanket bans. Since every time a caught cheater saw his bad icon, crossed out name, or CHEATER sign, etc, he would reflect and hopefully be less likely to cheat. As opposed to "I'm banned anyways, why not keep hacking." | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
On August 31 2009 15:59 randombum wrote: Also I think some public reminder that somebody is a cheater would serve as a better form of punishment then blanket bans. Since every time a caught cheater saw his bad icon, crossed out name, or CHEATER sign, etc, he would reflect and hopefully be less likely to cheat. As opposed to "I'm banned anyways, why not keep hacking." Or how about an upper case "C" for "cheater," in scarlet? | ||
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Lurgee
Australia252 Posts
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Cube
Canada777 Posts
so what do we do about it? well i really dont know, while some of the caught hackers may still be capable of contirbuting to the commuinty, we can't have that kind of disrespect be without consequence. maybe a ban from all relevant events and some sort of label as a caught hacker would shame and restirct the action of the person breaking the rules, while still giving them the chance to contribute to and participate in the community (which is the only way 'redemption' of any kind can really be achieved imo). my 2 cents edit: i think disc hacking is actually less disrespectful than maphacking but has a different motive. i mean anyone who sees you play knows you are garbage, and it cant be used in important games or even friendly games. its sole purpose is to climb the ladder. i think disc hacking carries with it an even less mature mindset than maphacking, so disc hackers should be banner outright as lazy kids who just want attention edit2: observer cheating should result in an immediate ban for both parites, seeing as it only makes sense to do in important games, and there is no excuse for it once proven. in game bugs have to be done on a case by case basis becaues the same situation rarely occurs twice in game | ||
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