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On July 25 2018 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 01:11 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 25 2018 00:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2018 00:56 brian wrote:On July 25 2018 00:25 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2018 00:03 Aveng3r wrote:On July 24 2018 23:44 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 22:36 LegalLord wrote:On July 24 2018 22:20 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 22:01 LegalLord wrote:
To be blunt, Seeker, you're really not one of the better active mods of the USPOL thread and based on that history you're coming off more like an immature child rather than a justifiably annoyed person telling off an overzealous poster. Dunno the contents of the PM so I don't know what is or isn't banworthy there, but you're definitely in the wrong in terms of how this is being handled. To be blunt, you have always questioned my moderation decisions and have often pointed out your discontent in how I do things. You can keep siding with GH all you want but your statements carry as much weight as GH's statements do. I question your decisions, yes, as should be expected given that I don’t think you’re a good moderator. Out of the three active mods of the thread - tofucake, BigFan, and yourself - you are by far the worst one, with the most foot-in-mouth decisions and just general failure to properly deal with situations that come up. I can see that I’m not alone in thinking so, as about 80 percent of the complaints about moderation decisions I’ve seen in the last year or so focus on actions carried out by you specifically. And those seem to be fairly well-distributed among political leanings and the like. I don’t really expect my word to “carry weight” as like anyone else I’m just some guy on the internet. However, your clear inability to take criticism with maturity (instead going with “fuck that guy for disagreeing with me”) doesn’t exactly show you to be a good moderator. It mostly shows the precise lack of introspection that makes me feel that it is appropriate to provide this very feedback. Whether or not you want to listen is of course entirely your choice. This is probably the first time I've given off an immature reaction. And that's only because I didn't appreciate GH's immature tone that he took up with me in the first place. Show me any response I gave that can be seen as immature other than what just happened today. I am a fair moderator who always listens to what everyone has to say and try to give as much detailed responses as possible. If you want, I can be like most other mods and just not give a fuck about your feedback and comments and just tell you that my word is final. I can also just ignore your PMs and questions entirely and just leave you hanging. But I don't do that because I am a good moderator. Say what you want about me all you want, but I know for a fact that I am a good mod. And just because I do things that don't seem favorable to you or your political side, doesn't mean that I'm a bad mod. Also, I have an inability to take criticism with maturity? Every single time a mod action of mine gets brought into question, I address what everyone has to say and accept it completely when I realize that I did something wrong or incorrectly. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I can't accept criticism because I sure as hell haven't been giving off that kind of vibe. I think the silent majority believe that you do fine, probably more than most since you actually engage with people and discuss your decisions Personally I don't know how you stay patient with some of the people in here Let's be clear on one thing. The "silent majority" knows fuck all about what's really going on in the thread and is far from qualified to assess the moderation. On July 25 2018 00:39 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2018 00:25 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2018 00:03 Aveng3r wrote:On July 24 2018 23:44 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 22:36 LegalLord wrote:On July 24 2018 22:20 Seeker wrote:
[quote]
To be blunt, you have always questioned my moderation decisions and have often pointed out your discontent in how I do things. You can keep siding with GH all you want but your statements carry as much weight as GH's statements do. I question your decisions, yes, as should be expected given that I don’t think you’re a good moderator. Out of the three active mods of the thread - tofucake, BigFan, and yourself - you are by far the worst one, with the most foot-in-mouth decisions and just general failure to properly deal with situations that come up. I can see that I’m not alone in thinking so, as about 80 percent of the complaints about moderation decisions I’ve seen in the last year or so focus on actions carried out by you specifically. And those seem to be fairly well-distributed among political leanings and the like. I don’t really expect my word to “carry weight” as like anyone else I’m just some guy on the internet. However, your clear inability to take criticism with maturity (instead going with “fuck that guy for disagreeing with me”) doesn’t exactly show you to be a good moderator. It mostly shows the precise lack of introspection that makes me feel that it is appropriate to provide this very feedback. Whether or not you want to listen is of course entirely your choice. This is probably the first time I've given off an immature reaction. And that's only because I didn't appreciate GH's immature tone that he took up with me in the first place. Show me any response I gave that can be seen as immature other than what just happened today. I am a fair moderator who always listens to what everyone has to say and try to give as much detailed responses as possible. If you want, I can be like most other mods and just not give a fuck about your feedback and comments and just tell you that my word is final. I can also just ignore your PMs and questions entirely and just leave you hanging. But I don't do that because I am a good moderator. Say what you want about me all you want, but I know for a fact that I am a good mod. And just because I do things that don't seem favorable to you or your political side, doesn't mean that I'm a bad mod. Also, I have an inability to take criticism with maturity? Every single time a mod action of mine gets brought into question, I address what everyone has to say and accept it completely when I realize that I did something wrong or incorrectly. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I can't accept criticism because I sure as hell haven't been giving off that kind of vibe. I think the silent majority believe that you do fine, probably more than most since you actually engage with people and discuss your decisions Personally I don't know how you stay patient with some of the people in here Let's be clear on one thing. The "silent majority" knows fuck all about what's really going on in the thread and is far from qualified to assess the moderation. Having been at the receiving end of a lot of that moderation, I am a certified expert in assessing its quality. The current moderation is fine. It’s not perfect or magical. It doesn’t make me want to sing or dance. It’s fine. It gets the job done. The people complaint about the moderation are the same small group that has always had an issue being told what they can or cannot do. Or folks who just want to post like passive agressive assholes all day hoping to bait out a ban. meaning no personal offense to either of you, i’d wager on average those with more actions are by far the least qualified to measure the moderations efficacy. either the actionee clearly cannot understand where exactly the line should be for common decency, or they are outright trolling and that alone bars them from having any meaningful input on the matter. On July 25 2018 00:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like my complaints, which are rather distinctive from pretty much everyone else's complaints here are being lumped into this discussion. Am I imagining that or are people just not taking the time to make the distinctions brian did for example? i think what is most often the case is a person reads what a poster says and reads only what they expect to read from that poster. for instance, i have gotten no particular impression that anyone thinks your complaints are any better or worse than any others(with the exception of LL’s mistaken assumption.) my own opinion is that they are definitely better in terms of quality of complaint, but no different in their nature. (with strong exception to Jimmi’s PM; that’s outrageous.) so many times a poster is saying one thing and the recipient hears another. Yeah that was posted in thread, not even a PM. It was Seekers idea for him to PM me garbage like that. I'd assume people think it was a PM because they never saw it. The post was edited/deleted with an apology. That doesn't make it right, but you look like a petty child at this point. That's true for the uncle tom part (though that wasn't an apology), but the calling me racist thing for something like the third time was still there last time I checked. Regardless it was less the not actioning him for calling me a racist uncle tom in the thread and more for Seeker telling him to PM that trash to me. fwiw people finding this the time to get in on this discussion seems far more like childish grade school group dynamics than anything I've said.
Seeker didn't tell him to PM you racist remarks. He told you and Jimmy to take your petty bullshit out of the thread to PM because nobody wants to read it.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 25 2018 01:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2018 01:11 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 25 2018 00:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2018 00:56 brian wrote:On July 25 2018 00:25 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2018 00:03 Aveng3r wrote:On July 24 2018 23:44 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 22:36 LegalLord wrote:On July 24 2018 22:20 Seeker wrote:
[quote]
To be blunt, you have always questioned my moderation decisions and have often pointed out your discontent in how I do things. You can keep siding with GH all you want but your statements carry as much weight as GH's statements do. I question your decisions, yes, as should be expected given that I don’t think you’re a good moderator. Out of the three active mods of the thread - tofucake, BigFan, and yourself - you are by far the worst one, with the most foot-in-mouth decisions and just general failure to properly deal with situations that come up. I can see that I’m not alone in thinking so, as about 80 percent of the complaints about moderation decisions I’ve seen in the last year or so focus on actions carried out by you specifically. And those seem to be fairly well-distributed among political leanings and the like. I don’t really expect my word to “carry weight” as like anyone else I’m just some guy on the internet. However, your clear inability to take criticism with maturity (instead going with “fuck that guy for disagreeing with me”) doesn’t exactly show you to be a good moderator. It mostly shows the precise lack of introspection that makes me feel that it is appropriate to provide this very feedback. Whether or not you want to listen is of course entirely your choice. This is probably the first time I've given off an immature reaction. And that's only because I didn't appreciate GH's immature tone that he took up with me in the first place. Show me any response I gave that can be seen as immature other than what just happened today. I am a fair moderator who always listens to what everyone has to say and try to give as much detailed responses as possible. If you want, I can be like most other mods and just not give a fuck about your feedback and comments and just tell you that my word is final. I can also just ignore your PMs and questions entirely and just leave you hanging. But I don't do that because I am a good moderator. Say what you want about me all you want, but I know for a fact that I am a good mod. And just because I do things that don't seem favorable to you or your political side, doesn't mean that I'm a bad mod. Also, I have an inability to take criticism with maturity? Every single time a mod action of mine gets brought into question, I address what everyone has to say and accept it completely when I realize that I did something wrong or incorrectly. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I can't accept criticism because I sure as hell haven't been giving off that kind of vibe. I think the silent majority believe that you do fine, probably more than most since you actually engage with people and discuss your decisions Personally I don't know how you stay patient with some of the people in here Let's be clear on one thing. The "silent majority" knows fuck all about what's really going on in the thread and is far from qualified to assess the moderation. On July 25 2018 00:39 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2018 00:25 xDaunt wrote:On July 25 2018 00:03 Aveng3r wrote:On July 24 2018 23:44 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 22:36 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
I question your decisions, yes, as should be expected given that I don’t think you’re a good moderator. Out of the three active mods of the thread - tofucake, BigFan, and yourself - you are by far the worst one, with the most foot-in-mouth decisions and just general failure to properly deal with situations that come up. I can see that I’m not alone in thinking so, as about 80 percent of the complaints about moderation decisions I’ve seen in the last year or so focus on actions carried out by you specifically. And those seem to be fairly well-distributed among political leanings and the like.
I don’t really expect my word to “carry weight” as like anyone else I’m just some guy on the internet. However, your clear inability to take criticism with maturity (instead going with “fuck that guy for disagreeing with me”) doesn’t exactly show you to be a good moderator. It mostly shows the precise lack of introspection that makes me feel that it is appropriate to provide this very feedback.
Whether or not you want to listen is of course entirely your choice. This is probably the first time I've given off an immature reaction. And that's only because I didn't appreciate GH's immature tone that he took up with me in the first place. Show me any response I gave that can be seen as immature other than what just happened today. I am a fair moderator who always listens to what everyone has to say and try to give as much detailed responses as possible. If you want, I can be like most other mods and just not give a fuck about your feedback and comments and just tell you that my word is final. I can also just ignore your PMs and questions entirely and just leave you hanging. But I don't do that because I am a good moderator. Say what you want about me all you want, but I know for a fact that I am a good mod. And just because I do things that don't seem favorable to you or your political side, doesn't mean that I'm a bad mod. Also, I have an inability to take criticism with maturity? Every single time a mod action of mine gets brought into question, I address what everyone has to say and accept it completely when I realize that I did something wrong or incorrectly. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I can't accept criticism because I sure as hell haven't been giving off that kind of vibe. I think the silent majority believe that you do fine, probably more than most since you actually engage with people and discuss your decisions Personally I don't know how you stay patient with some of the people in here Let's be clear on one thing. The "silent majority" knows fuck all about what's really going on in the thread and is far from qualified to assess the moderation. Having been at the receiving end of a lot of that moderation, I am a certified expert in assessing its quality. The current moderation is fine. It’s not perfect or magical. It doesn’t make me want to sing or dance. It’s fine. It gets the job done. The people complaint about the moderation are the same small group that has always had an issue being told what they can or cannot do. Or folks who just want to post like passive agressive assholes all day hoping to bait out a ban. meaning no personal offense to either of you, i’d wager on average those with more actions are by far the least qualified to measure the moderations efficacy. either the actionee clearly cannot understand where exactly the line should be for common decency, or they are outright trolling and that alone bars them from having any meaningful input on the matter. On July 25 2018 00:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like my complaints, which are rather distinctive from pretty much everyone else's complaints here are being lumped into this discussion. Am I imagining that or are people just not taking the time to make the distinctions brian did for example? i think what is most often the case is a person reads what a poster says and reads only what they expect to read from that poster. for instance, i have gotten no particular impression that anyone thinks your complaints are any better or worse than any others(with the exception of LL’s mistaken assumption.) my own opinion is that they are definitely better in terms of quality of complaint, but no different in their nature. (with strong exception to Jimmi’s PM; that’s outrageous.) so many times a poster is saying one thing and the recipient hears another. Yeah that was posted in thread, not even a PM. It was Seekers idea for him to PM me garbage like that. I'd assume people think it was a PM because they never saw it. The post was edited/deleted with an apology. That doesn't make it right, but you look like a petty child at this point. That's true for the uncle tom part (though that wasn't an apology), but the calling me racist thing for something like the third time was still there last time I checked. Regardless it was less the not actioning him for calling me a racist uncle tom in the thread and more for Seeker telling him to PM that trash to me. fwiw people finding this the time to get in on this discussion seems far more like childish grade school group dynamics than anything I've said. Seeker didn't tell him to PM you racist remarks. He told you and Jimmy to take your petty bullshit out of the thread to PM because nobody wants to read it.
I didn't end up reading the conversation to see what went down, but as a fellow mod, I'm pretty sure that this was what Seeker meant. Stop spamming the thread and continue your conversation in pms. I can also fully understand why Seeker posted as he did.
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Except my "petty bullshit" was pointing out how irreparably flawed the arguments I was confronting were and his was calling me a racist uncle tom.
Rather than warn him or something to demonstrate that's not acceptable he put both positions/arguments on the same level of pettiness by responding to him calling me a racist uncle tom by telling him to take it to PM. Indicating to both of us that if he sent unsolicited PM's calling me a racist uncle tom that it would be within the bounds of exactly what Seeker suggested he do.
As a result I'm getting those PM's and he went on to call me racist (in thread) yet again.
I fully understand why Seeker posted what he did and actually genuinely thanked him for copping to it.
On July 24 2018 21:36 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:13 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? When were you instabanned? This one: You have been temp banned for 1 week by Seeker.
Reason: GH, I can't do a temporary thread ban this time around because you were reported for a PM you sent.
The sole contents of the PM would have gotten you only a 2 day temp ban, but then the user provided evidence that shows that you've clearly targeted them before in the past. So when you come back from this 1 week ban, please leave then alone. But you can start with why in the hell you would tell him to PM me that garbage regardless of your previous actions against me. Because I said so?
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GH, Uncle Tom is a distinctly American insult pertaining to black men. I’m not sure where Seeker is from, but I don’t think it’s the US.
For anyone not from America land, calling a black dude an Uncle Tom in the US will get you in a fist fight real quick. It is saying they are subservient, as in, an obedient slave eager to please his/her master.
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On July 25 2018 01:49 Plansix wrote:
GH, Uncle Tom is a distinctly American insult pertaining to black men. I’m not sure where Seeker is from, but I don’t think it’s the US.
For anyone not from America land, calling a black dude an Uncle Tom in the US will get you in a fist fight real quick. It is saying they are subservient, as in, an obedient slave eager to please his/her master.
We have that phrase in the UK as well. The Mayor of London got in trouble for saying it when addressing a muslim crowd during his campaign, referring to Muslims in government.
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On July 25 2018 01:53 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 01:49 Plansix wrote:
GH, Uncle Tom is a distinctly American insult pertaining to black men. I’m not sure where Seeker is from, but I don’t think it’s the US.
For anyone not from America land, calling a black dude an Uncle Tom in the US will get you in a fist fight real quick. It is saying they are subservient, as in, an obedient slave eager to please his/her master. We have that phrase in the UK as well. The Mayor of London got in trouble for saying it when addressing a muslim crowd during his campaign, referring to Muslims in government.
I’m not surprised that it is known in the U.K. I think it might not be as well known in counties that don’t speak English a primary language. I’ve had foreign co-workers ask about it.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36921 Posts
On July 25 2018 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Except my "petty bullshit" was pointing out how irreparably flawed the arguments I was confronting were and his was calling me a racist uncle tom. Rather than warn him or something to demonstrate that's not acceptable he put both positions/arguments on the same level of pettiness by responding to him calling me a racist uncle tom by telling him to take it to PM. Indicating to both of us that if he sent unsolicited PM's calling me a racist uncle tom that it would be within the bounds of exactly what Seeker suggested he do. As a result I'm getting those PM's and he went on to call me racist (in thread) yet again. I fully understand why Seeker posted what he did and actually genuinely thanked him for copping to it. Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:36 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:13 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? When were you instabanned? This one: You have been temp banned for 1 week by Seeker.
Reason: GH, I can't do a temporary thread ban this time around because you were reported for a PM you sent.
The sole contents of the PM would have gotten you only a 2 day temp ban, but then the user provided evidence that shows that you've clearly targeted them before in the past. So when you come back from this 1 week ban, please leave then alone. But you can start with why in the hell you would tell him to PM me that garbage regardless of your previous actions against me. Because I said so?
That was clearly not a legitimate response from me. Your attitude in how you approached this whole thing showed off your immaturity so I was responding in a lazy and insincere manner.
You need to stop playing the victim card. I have never once seen you apologize or admit that you did something wrong. You always point out the fault in others. You always try to push the blame onto others. You always try to find some way to justify what you said and did. It is getting tiresome, repetitive, and just downright annoying.
If you can't figure out your own faults or see your own problems first, then no matter how many times I try to explain things to you, it just won't register. So let me ask you, why should I bother continue to explain things to you if you've never once tried to see things from someone else's perspective?
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I was formerly unaware of the phrase and connotations of "Uncle Tom", but my opinion is that GH can certainly learn to handle his problem of being targeted by a racist phrase better by explaining the situation clearly and properly to the feedback page. I can see that it would be rather unpleasant to be a target of a racial epithet, and then when pointing and arguing against it to be told to take it to PM, but GH case certainly isn't helped by the assumption that anybody can be bothered to read GH vs JimmieC.
You have a problem of being so wrapped in your own personal culture that you don't seem able to see past that people don't understand what you are talking about. It would had been simple to describe the phrase in question, that JimmieC or whoever the poster was should have been modactioned for his phrase, instead of underlining a danglaresque persecution complex.
My other opinion is that Seeker was certainly responding inappropriately when responding to GH asking for reasonings behind mod actions by phrases such as "Because I said so?" and suchlike. It is simple to write a reason like the example of User was warned for posting about moderation within the thread. which is a good example of good moderation, though it might be better instead of wearning, to link to the website feedback area, as most users would be unaware of such a place.
Ultimately mods hold ultimate power, and as such it would be nice if they didn't act is such a flippant manner.
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On July 25 2018 01:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 01:23 brian wrote:
everyone is equally deserving of an opinion and a post. that this happens to be the topic is what it is. i definitely feel stupid partaking every now and then though.
my apology on misunderstanding the uncle tom situation. the editing definitely makes it better. not good. but at least better, and i can understand now why it’s a little weird to mod it, but couldn’t possibly understand encouraging it. though i also don’t think anyone actually encouraged it; and rather this is a prime example of hearing what you expect as opposed to what was intended. He posted it, Seeker read it, told him to take it to PM's. I read what was there. I also should have done you the service you did me and clarify I wasn't referencing your posts.
no sweat, i didn’t take it that way. i meant everyone else ‘coming out of the woodwork,’ if you will. they’re just sounding off like the rest of us and just want to put their thoughts out there. it’s a forum, after all.
and i know others have said it too but surely Seeker wasn’t encouraging more racist remarks be sent to PM, but rather the conversation as a whole.
i don’t even consider it a service, like you said, the only way to actually figure it out is to talk it out. it’s easy to assume the whole
of what a person intends to say by reading between the lines. after all, a person rarely goes into the touchy feely specifics of things so what else is there to do? i just think we all(and i mean we all, this isn’t some obfuscatory way of singling anyone out. there’s no lines to read between here,) should be more receptive to the idea that maybe we had assumed poorly.
we’ve all been talking to each other for so long i get that we all think we know enough to accurately read between the lines, but people do change. it’s been a real long time we’ve been together here.
~nonsequitir- idk if i’m just projecting here but it’s way easy to take things personally that are definitely not intended to be personal.
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On July 25 2018 02:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:I was formerly unaware of the phrase and connotations of "Uncle Tom", but my opinion is that GH can certainly learn to handle his problem of being targeted by a racist phrase better by explaining the situation clearly and properly to the feedback page. I can see that it would be rather unpleasant to be a target of a racial epithet, and then when pointing and arguing against it to be told to take it to PM, but GH case certainly isn't helped by the assumption that anybody can be bothered to read GH vs JimmieC. You have a problem of being so wrapped in your own personal culture that you don't seem able to see past that people don't understand what you are talking about. It would had been simple to describe the phrase in question, that JimmieC or whoever the poster was should have been modactioned for his phrase, instead of underlining a danglaresque persecution complex. My other opinion is that Seeker was certainly responding inappropriately when responding to GH asking for reasonings behind mod actions by phrases such as "Because I said so?" and suchlike. It is simple to write a reason like the example of which is a good example of good moderation, though it might be better instead of wearning, to link to the website feedback area, as most users would be unaware of such a place. Ultimately mods hold ultimate power, and as such it would be nice if they didn't act is such a flippant manner.
The mods are also human and lose their patience from time to time. But t would be nice to never have that happen.
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On July 25 2018 02:20 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Except my "petty bullshit" was pointing out how irreparably flawed the arguments I was confronting were and his was calling me a racist uncle tom. Rather than warn him or something to demonstrate that's not acceptable he put both positions/arguments on the same level of pettiness by responding to him calling me a racist uncle tom by telling him to take it to PM. Indicating to both of us that if he sent unsolicited PM's calling me a racist uncle tom that it would be within the bounds of exactly what Seeker suggested he do. As a result I'm getting those PM's and he went on to call me racist (in thread) yet again. I fully understand why Seeker posted what he did and actually genuinely thanked him for copping to it. On July 24 2018 21:36 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:13 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? When were you instabanned? This one: You have been temp banned for 1 week by Seeker.
Reason: GH, I can't do a temporary thread ban this time around because you were reported for a PM you sent.
The sole contents of the PM would have gotten you only a 2 day temp ban, but then the user provided evidence that shows that you've clearly targeted them before in the past. So when you come back from this 1 week ban, please leave then alone. But you can start with why in the hell you would tell him to PM me that garbage regardless of your previous actions against me. Because I said so? That was clearly not a legitimate response from me. Your attitude in how you approached this whole thing showed off your immaturity so I was responding in a lazy and insincere manner. You need to stop playing the victim card. I have never once seen you apologize or admit that you did something wrong. You always point out the fault in others. You always try to push the blame onto others. You always try to find some way to justify what you said and did. It is getting tiresome, repetitive, and just downright annoying. If you can't figure out your own faults or see your own problems first, then no matter how many times I try to explain things to you, it just won't register. So let me ask you, why should I bother continue to explain things to you if you've never once tried to see things from someone else's perspective?
I haven't shied away from my reasoning for thinking calls for civility or in this case "maturity" are actually calls for a sort of negative peace and why I disagree with the position that's shared by most (though less over time) that my way of calling attention to problems is worse than the problems themselves.
Here or in PM I'd be happy to discuss them further if you or others would like. I'm sorry that rather than just lay proclamations and shrink away when confronted with conflicting information until cajoled by shame or peer to take responsibility, I instead confront it head on and argue my position in a manner reflective of the argument I'm confronting without regret.
You know as well as anyone I'm not playing a victim card, the whole point of this was to get that brief moment of honesty you referenced as "not a legitimate response".
I disagree. I think that's the most legitimate response I may have ever gotten from you. Frankly as I've said multiple times now, I'm fine with it. What I don't like is what appears to be you walking it back.
As to your ongoing concern with me admitting fault, I literally did it very recently and here. Granted it wasn't the biggest admission, it's right here to see. IgnE got me on the This is America video, and I'm sure people could come up with others if they wanted to help us get to something resembling an objective truth.
That's not to say I'm a perfect poster, haven't done things deserving of getting actioned or even been unnecessarily pissy about the whole thing.
What you are keyed in on is that if you're going to try to maintain the pretense, then I'm going to attempt to get you to adhere to it. So when you call me out on a one-liner I'm going to point out that you had to ignore worse ones to action mine.
What's funny is that I've been leaving small windows all over the place (mostly a result of growing tired of all this)where you or others could confront completely reasonable weaknesses in my arguments (occasionally I get a PM from someone who notices), but instead I get mostly crap. This isn't terribly dissimilar from xDaunts issue as articulated by IgnE (with some key differences) but as he mentioned the type of introspection it would require to take notice of this doesn't seem to be overly abundant.
Since I've been basically picking on you, let me say your modding has been borderline heroic and if we just stick with dropping the pretense I think much of our issues would pass by.
It's a damn mess in that thread and that you even still try is admirable, so don't think I'm being hard on you because I don't appreciate the work you do, because I do. I just think the pretense was unnecessarily restrictive. I also have different ideas on how we could make the situation/issues better.
fwiw besides the pretense thing I thought you were doing a good job mostly and personally think this is mostly a result of letting some personal animosity (certainly a fair amount of it perfectly reasonable/justified) get in the way of just doing what would have made sense when I was called a racist uncle tom.
Believe it or not I do listen sometimes so I don't want to make this about proving you wrong or myself right, I just want to say that while I do fight for my ideas/positions vociferously, and think myself justified in doing so, it's not lost on me that my abrasiveness is irritating (pretty much always) and unnecessary at times or that I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to demonstrating beyond any doubt that some opinions are categorically bad. Particularly the ones revolving around my personal experiences, especially when coming from people necessarily separated by a great degree from the issues they are opining.
The significance of the term uncle tom serves as an example. I'm very aware of some of my bad habits or stylistic choices, that could easily be described as shitty. I'd also try to justify them. But I'm also not above or too high on my own supply to be oblivious to the reality that I sometimes got too far, or act counter-productively. But while we're being honest we should be clear about the connection between this ordeal and our last PM exchange.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 24 2018 23:44 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 22:36 LegalLord wrote:On July 24 2018 22:20 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 22:01 LegalLord wrote:
To be blunt, Seeker, you're really not one of the better active mods of the USPOL thread and based on that history you're coming off more like an immature child rather than a justifiably annoyed person telling off an overzealous poster. Dunno the contents of the PM so I don't know what is or isn't banworthy there, but you're definitely in the wrong in terms of how this is being handled. To be blunt, you have always questioned my moderation decisions and have often pointed out your discontent in how I do things. You can keep siding with GH all you want but your statements carry as much weight as GH's statements do. I question your decisions, yes, as should be expected given that I don’t think you’re a good moderator. Out of the three active mods of the thread - tofucake, BigFan, and yourself - you are by far the worst one, with the most foot-in-mouth decisions and just general failure to properly deal with situations that come up. I can see that I’m not alone in thinking so, as about 80 percent of the complaints about moderation decisions I’ve seen in the last year or so focus on actions carried out by you specifically. And those seem to be fairly well-distributed among political leanings and the like. I don’t really expect my word to “carry weight” as like anyone else I’m just some guy on the internet. However, your clear inability to take criticism with maturity (instead going with “fuck that guy for disagreeing with me”) doesn’t exactly show you to be a good moderator. It mostly shows the precise lack of introspection that makes me feel that it is appropriate to provide this very feedback. Whether or not you want to listen is of course entirely your choice. This is probably the first time I've given off an immature reaction. And that's only because I didn't appreciate GH's immature tone that he took up with me in the first place. Show me any response I gave that can be seen as immature other than what just happened today. I am a fair moderator who always listens to what everyone has to say and try to give as much detailed responses as possible. If you want, I can be like most other mods and just not give a fuck about your feedback and comments and just tell you that my word is final. I can also just ignore your PMs and questions entirely and just leave you hanging. But I don't do that because I am a good moderator. Say what you want about me all you want, but I know for a fact that I am a good mod. And just because I do things that don't seem favorable to you or your political side, doesn't mean that I'm a bad mod. Also, I have an inability to take criticism with maturity? Every single time a mod action of mine gets brought into question, I address what everyone has to say and accept it completely when I realize that I did something wrong or incorrectly. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that I can't accept criticism because I sure as hell haven't been giving off that kind of vibe.
The response to GH here is certainly one of the most blatant immature posts. If you need further examples, though, you don’t have to go further than this conversation or the many like it associated with the same kinds of controversial mod actions. Going with “well duck you because you disagree with me anyways” belies a tendency towards making and holding grudges in the process of doing moderation work, not really a trait of a good mod. I could find any number of examples that show clear emotional and knee-jerk decision-making that really isn’t becoming of a moderator, but I see little to no point of doing so.
Never sent a PM about moderation, so I know nothing about that. If your idea of “I’m receptive to feedback” is ducking and running from requests for clarification every time someone is unsatisfied with a canned answer (which is the result of posts in this thread at least), then you might as well drop the pretense and just do the things you say make you “like most other mods.” The result isn’t awfully different than what’s already happening. And I wonder if you consider your response to GH here being “addressing what everyone has to say and taking it into account.” Or are you just owed that exception because, you know, that GH guy is a real pain in the bum?
In fact I could even go as far as to say that the emotionally charged decision-making that belies this entire conversation is evidence in and of itself of the failure in moderation that is apparent here.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36921 Posts
On July 25 2018 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 02:20 Seeker wrote:On July 25 2018 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Except my "petty bullshit" was pointing out how irreparably flawed the arguments I was confronting were and his was calling me a racist uncle tom. Rather than warn him or something to demonstrate that's not acceptable he put both positions/arguments on the same level of pettiness by responding to him calling me a racist uncle tom by telling him to take it to PM. Indicating to both of us that if he sent unsolicited PM's calling me a racist uncle tom that it would be within the bounds of exactly what Seeker suggested he do. As a result I'm getting those PM's and he went on to call me racist (in thread) yet again. I fully understand why Seeker posted what he did and actually genuinely thanked him for copping to it. On July 24 2018 21:36 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:13 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? When were you instabanned? This one: You have been temp banned for 1 week by Seeker.
Reason: GH, I can't do a temporary thread ban this time around because you were reported for a PM you sent.
The sole contents of the PM would have gotten you only a 2 day temp ban, but then the user provided evidence that shows that you've clearly targeted them before in the past. So when you come back from this 1 week ban, please leave then alone. But you can start with why in the hell you would tell him to PM me that garbage regardless of your previous actions against me. Because I said so? That was clearly not a legitimate response from me. Your attitude in how you approached this whole thing showed off your immaturity so I was responding in a lazy and insincere manner. You need to stop playing the victim card. I have never once seen you apologize or admit that you did something wrong. You always point out the fault in others. You always try to push the blame onto others. You always try to find some way to justify what you said and did. It is getting tiresome, repetitive, and just downright annoying. If you can't figure out your own faults or see your own problems first, then no matter how many times I try to explain things to you, it just won't register. So let me ask you, why should I bother continue to explain things to you if you've never once tried to see things from someone else's perspective? I haven't shied away from my reasoning for thinking calls for civility or in this case "maturity" are actually calls for a sort of negative peace and why I disagree with the position that's shared by most (though less over time) that my way of calling attention to problems is worse than the problems themselves. Here or in PM I'd be happy to discuss them further if you or others would like. I'm sorry that rather than just lay proclamations and shrink away when confronted with conflicting information until cajoled by shame or peer to take responsibility, I instead confront it head on and argue my position in a manner reflective of the argument I'm confronting without regret. You know as well as anyone I'm not playing a victim card, the whole point of this was to get that brief moment of honesty you referenced as "not a legitimate response". I disagree. I think that's the most legitimate response I may have ever gotten from you. Frankly as I've said multiple times now, I'm fine with it. What I don't like is what appears to be you walking it back. As to your ongoing concern with me admitting fault, I literally did it very recently and here. Granted it wasn't the biggest admission, it's right here to see. IgnE got me on the This is America video, and I'm sure people could come up with others if they wanted to help us get to something resembling an objective truth. That's not to say I'm a perfect poster, haven't done things deserving of getting actioned or even been unnecessarily pissy about the whole thing. What you are keyed in on is that if you're going to try to maintain the pretense, then I'm going to attempt to get you to adhere to it. So when you call me out on a one-liner I'm going to point out that you had to ignore worse ones to action mine. What's funny is that I've been leaving small windows all over the place (mostly a result of growing tired of all this)where you or others could confront completely reasonable weaknesses in my arguments (occasionally I get a PM from someone who notices), but instead I get mostly crap. This isn't terribly dissimilar from xDaunts issue as articulated by IgnE (with some key differences) but as he mentioned the type of introspection it would require to take notice of this doesn't seem to be overly abundant. Since I've been basically picking on you, let me say your modding has been borderline heroic and if we just stick with dropping the pretense I think much of our issues would pass by. It's a damn mess in that thread and that you even still try is admirable, so don't think I'm being hard on you because I don't appreciate the work you do, because I do. I just think the pretense was unnecessarily restrictive. I also have different ideas on how we could make the situation/issues better. fwiw besides the pretense thing I thought you were doing a good job mostly and personally think this is mostly a result of letting some personal animosity (certainly a fair amount of it perfectly reasonable/justified) get in the way of just doing what would have made sense when I was called a racist uncle tom. Believe it or not I do listen sometimes so I don't want to make this about proving you wrong or myself right, I just want to say that while I do fight for my ideas/positions vociferously, and think myself justified in doing so, it's not lost on me that my abrasiveness is irritating (pretty much always) and unnecessary at times or that I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to demonstrating beyond any doubt that some opinions are categorically bad. Particularly the ones revolving around my personal experiences, especially when coming from people necessarily separated by a great degree from the issues they are opining. The significance of the term uncle tom serves as an example. I'm very aware of some of my bad habits or stylistic choices, that could easily be described as shitty. I'd also try to justify them. But I'm also not above or too high on my own supply to be oblivious to the reality that I sometimes got too far, or act counter-productively. But while we're being honest we should be clear about the connection between this ordeal and our last PM exchange.
This post shows me that you are more than capable of having a genuine adult-like conversation where you're not just pushing blame unto others. I'm grateful for your well thought out response and I respect you for it. Now, let's get down to business:
On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash?
I did not tell JimmiC to PM you his "trash" comments and racist remarks. I merely said, "Take it to PMS." Which, as several others have already pointed out, was just me saying that the conversation is mucking up the thread and that you guys need to take it to PMs if you can't debate in a civil manner that doesn't shit up the thread.
As for his "Uncle Tom" comment, I had no idea what it meant nor did I know that it was an offensive remark. JimmiC later on edited out his post so it looks like he came to his own realization that he went too far. And since he edited out, there is no need to carry out a mod action against him since he admitted to his own mistake.
However, with that being said, had JimmiC not edited out his comment, he most certainly would have received a mod action from me. Him using a racist remark to try to get his point across is insulting and offensive. I would not have just stood by and let him go unpunished.
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On July 25 2018 03:32 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2018 02:20 Seeker wrote:On July 25 2018 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Except my "petty bullshit" was pointing out how irreparably flawed the arguments I was confronting were and his was calling me a racist uncle tom. Rather than warn him or something to demonstrate that's not acceptable he put both positions/arguments on the same level of pettiness by responding to him calling me a racist uncle tom by telling him to take it to PM. Indicating to both of us that if he sent unsolicited PM's calling me a racist uncle tom that it would be within the bounds of exactly what Seeker suggested he do. As a result I'm getting those PM's and he went on to call me racist (in thread) yet again. I fully understand why Seeker posted what he did and actually genuinely thanked him for copping to it. On July 24 2018 21:36 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:13 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? When were you instabanned? This one: You have been temp banned for 1 week by Seeker.
Reason: GH, I can't do a temporary thread ban this time around because you were reported for a PM you sent.
The sole contents of the PM would have gotten you only a 2 day temp ban, but then the user provided evidence that shows that you've clearly targeted them before in the past. So when you come back from this 1 week ban, please leave then alone. But you can start with why in the hell you would tell him to PM me that garbage regardless of your previous actions against me. Because I said so? That was clearly not a legitimate response from me. Your attitude in how you approached this whole thing showed off your immaturity so I was responding in a lazy and insincere manner. You need to stop playing the victim card. I have never once seen you apologize or admit that you did something wrong. You always point out the fault in others. You always try to push the blame onto others. You always try to find some way to justify what you said and did. It is getting tiresome, repetitive, and just downright annoying. If you can't figure out your own faults or see your own problems first, then no matter how many times I try to explain things to you, it just won't register. So let me ask you, why should I bother continue to explain things to you if you've never once tried to see things from someone else's perspective? I haven't shied away from my reasoning for thinking calls for civility or in this case "maturity" are actually calls for a sort of negative peace and why I disagree with the position that's shared by most (though less over time) that my way of calling attention to problems is worse than the problems themselves. Here or in PM I'd be happy to discuss them further if you or others would like. I'm sorry that rather than just lay proclamations and shrink away when confronted with conflicting information until cajoled by shame or peer to take responsibility, I instead confront it head on and argue my position in a manner reflective of the argument I'm confronting without regret. You know as well as anyone I'm not playing a victim card, the whole point of this was to get that brief moment of honesty you referenced as "not a legitimate response". I disagree. I think that's the most legitimate response I may have ever gotten from you. Frankly as I've said multiple times now, I'm fine with it. What I don't like is what appears to be you walking it back. As to your ongoing concern with me admitting fault, I literally did it very recently and here. Granted it wasn't the biggest admission, it's right here to see. IgnE got me on the This is America video, and I'm sure people could come up with others if they wanted to help us get to something resembling an objective truth. That's not to say I'm a perfect poster, haven't done things deserving of getting actioned or even been unnecessarily pissy about the whole thing. What you are keyed in on is that if you're going to try to maintain the pretense, then I'm going to attempt to get you to adhere to it. So when you call me out on a one-liner I'm going to point out that you had to ignore worse ones to action mine. What's funny is that I've been leaving small windows all over the place (mostly a result of growing tired of all this)where you or others could confront completely reasonable weaknesses in my arguments (occasionally I get a PM from someone who notices), but instead I get mostly crap. This isn't terribly dissimilar from xDaunts issue as articulated by IgnE (with some key differences) but as he mentioned the type of introspection it would require to take notice of this doesn't seem to be overly abundant. Since I've been basically picking on you, let me say your modding has been borderline heroic and if we just stick with dropping the pretense I think much of our issues would pass by. It's a damn mess in that thread and that you even still try is admirable, so don't think I'm being hard on you because I don't appreciate the work you do, because I do. I just think the pretense was unnecessarily restrictive. I also have different ideas on how we could make the situation/issues better. fwiw besides the pretense thing I thought you were doing a good job mostly and personally think this is mostly a result of letting some personal animosity (certainly a fair amount of it perfectly reasonable/justified) get in the way of just doing what would have made sense when I was called a racist uncle tom. Believe it or not I do listen sometimes so I don't want to make this about proving you wrong or myself right, I just want to say that while I do fight for my ideas/positions vociferously, and think myself justified in doing so, it's not lost on me that my abrasiveness is irritating (pretty much always) and unnecessary at times or that I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to demonstrating beyond any doubt that some opinions are categorically bad. Particularly the ones revolving around my personal experiences, especially when coming from people necessarily separated by a great degree from the issues they are opining. The significance of the term uncle tom serves as an example. I'm very aware of some of my bad habits or stylistic choices, that could easily be described as shitty. I'd also try to justify them. But I'm also not above or too high on my own supply to be oblivious to the reality that I sometimes got too far, or act counter-productively. But while we're being honest we should be clear about the connection between this ordeal and our last PM exchange. This post shows me that you are more than capable of having a genuine adult-like conversation where you're not just pushing blame unto others. I'm grateful for your well thought out response and I respect you for it. Now, let's get down to business: Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? I did not tell JimmiC to PM you his "trash" comments and racist remarks. I merely said, "Take it to PMS." Which, as several others have already pointed out, was just me saying that the conversation is mucking up the thread and that you guys need to take it to PMs if you can't debate in a civil manner that doesn't shit up the thread. As for his "Uncle Tom" comment, I had no idea what it meant nor did I know that it was an offensive remark. JimmiC later on edited out his post so it looks like he came to his own realization that he went too far. And since he edited out, there is no need to carry out a mod action against him since he admitted to his own mistake. However, with that being said, had JimmiC not edited out his comment, he most certainly would have received a mod action from me. Him using a racist remark to try to get his point across is insulting and offensive. I would not have just stood by and let him go unpunished.
I've expressed my thoughts on the "both sides" type comments enough to let that lay and I accept the explanation of not understanding how that had to look to me at the time and while it's hard for me to understand how you could not know that, I have no idea what's going on in plenty of countries, let alone more nuanced stuff like slurs (don't ask me how I found out several gaming things are also slurs for Finnish people), so it's only fair I accept it.
I disagree about the editing it out making it not worthy of action, because it got said regardless and it's pretty heinous, along with the accompanying arguments and continued (after that post) calling me racist, and the PM's that came as a result of him being encouraged to take what was "shit" in the thread into my PM's regardless of whether it was specifically encouraging him to freely toss specific racial slurs at me in PM.
If you want to say I brought it on myself I'll accept it (not like I have a choice right lol) but I would at least hope if the tables are turned and Jimmi comes pleading for action for something that offended him, I'm afforded a comparable leeway, ideally proportional to our contributions to the thread, but I suppose that also depends on who is assessing the values haha.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36921 Posts
On July 25 2018 03:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 03:32 Seeker wrote:On July 25 2018 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2018 02:20 Seeker wrote:On July 25 2018 01:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Except my "petty bullshit" was pointing out how irreparably flawed the arguments I was confronting were and his was calling me a racist uncle tom. Rather than warn him or something to demonstrate that's not acceptable he put both positions/arguments on the same level of pettiness by responding to him calling me a racist uncle tom by telling him to take it to PM. Indicating to both of us that if he sent unsolicited PM's calling me a racist uncle tom that it would be within the bounds of exactly what Seeker suggested he do. As a result I'm getting those PM's and he went on to call me racist (in thread) yet again. I fully understand why Seeker posted what he did and actually genuinely thanked him for copping to it. On July 24 2018 21:36 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:13 Seeker wrote:On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? When were you instabanned? This one: You have been temp banned for 1 week by Seeker.
Reason: GH, I can't do a temporary thread ban this time around because you were reported for a PM you sent.
The sole contents of the PM would have gotten you only a 2 day temp ban, but then the user provided evidence that shows that you've clearly targeted them before in the past. So when you come back from this 1 week ban, please leave then alone. But you can start with why in the hell you would tell him to PM me that garbage regardless of your previous actions against me. Because I said so? That was clearly not a legitimate response from me. Your attitude in how you approached this whole thing showed off your immaturity so I was responding in a lazy and insincere manner. You need to stop playing the victim card. I have never once seen you apologize or admit that you did something wrong. You always point out the fault in others. You always try to push the blame onto others. You always try to find some way to justify what you said and did. It is getting tiresome, repetitive, and just downright annoying. If you can't figure out your own faults or see your own problems first, then no matter how many times I try to explain things to you, it just won't register. So let me ask you, why should I bother continue to explain things to you if you've never once tried to see things from someone else's perspective? I haven't shied away from my reasoning for thinking calls for civility or in this case "maturity" are actually calls for a sort of negative peace and why I disagree with the position that's shared by most (though less over time) that my way of calling attention to problems is worse than the problems themselves. Here or in PM I'd be happy to discuss them further if you or others would like. I'm sorry that rather than just lay proclamations and shrink away when confronted with conflicting information until cajoled by shame or peer to take responsibility, I instead confront it head on and argue my position in a manner reflective of the argument I'm confronting without regret. You know as well as anyone I'm not playing a victim card, the whole point of this was to get that brief moment of honesty you referenced as "not a legitimate response". I disagree. I think that's the most legitimate response I may have ever gotten from you. Frankly as I've said multiple times now, I'm fine with it. What I don't like is what appears to be you walking it back. As to your ongoing concern with me admitting fault, I literally did it very recently and here. Granted it wasn't the biggest admission, it's right here to see. IgnE got me on the This is America video, and I'm sure people could come up with others if they wanted to help us get to something resembling an objective truth. That's not to say I'm a perfect poster, haven't done things deserving of getting actioned or even been unnecessarily pissy about the whole thing. What you are keyed in on is that if you're going to try to maintain the pretense, then I'm going to attempt to get you to adhere to it. So when you call me out on a one-liner I'm going to point out that you had to ignore worse ones to action mine. What's funny is that I've been leaving small windows all over the place (mostly a result of growing tired of all this)where you or others could confront completely reasonable weaknesses in my arguments (occasionally I get a PM from someone who notices), but instead I get mostly crap. This isn't terribly dissimilar from xDaunts issue as articulated by IgnE (with some key differences) but as he mentioned the type of introspection it would require to take notice of this doesn't seem to be overly abundant. Since I've been basically picking on you, let me say your modding has been borderline heroic and if we just stick with dropping the pretense I think much of our issues would pass by. It's a damn mess in that thread and that you even still try is admirable, so don't think I'm being hard on you because I don't appreciate the work you do, because I do. I just think the pretense was unnecessarily restrictive. I also have different ideas on how we could make the situation/issues better. fwiw besides the pretense thing I thought you were doing a good job mostly and personally think this is mostly a result of letting some personal animosity (certainly a fair amount of it perfectly reasonable/justified) get in the way of just doing what would have made sense when I was called a racist uncle tom. Believe it or not I do listen sometimes so I don't want to make this about proving you wrong or myself right, I just want to say that while I do fight for my ideas/positions vociferously, and think myself justified in doing so, it's not lost on me that my abrasiveness is irritating (pretty much always) and unnecessary at times or that I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to demonstrating beyond any doubt that some opinions are categorically bad. Particularly the ones revolving around my personal experiences, especially when coming from people necessarily separated by a great degree from the issues they are opining. The significance of the term uncle tom serves as an example. I'm very aware of some of my bad habits or stylistic choices, that could easily be described as shitty. I'd also try to justify them. But I'm also not above or too high on my own supply to be oblivious to the reality that I sometimes got too far, or act counter-productively. But while we're being honest we should be clear about the connection between this ordeal and our last PM exchange. This post shows me that you are more than capable of having a genuine adult-like conversation where you're not just pushing blame unto others. I'm grateful for your well thought out response and I respect you for it. Now, let's get down to business: On July 24 2018 13:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 12:26 Seeker wrote:
When in doubt, just report it. The mods will handle the rest. It's much easier for us to carry out mod actions anyway if there are more reports to look at. On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them. Can you explain why I was instabanned (without discussion) for PM'ing something not nearly as bad as Jimmi said in the thread and your suggestion was for him to PM me that trash? I did not tell JimmiC to PM you his "trash" comments and racist remarks. I merely said, "Take it to PMS." Which, as several others have already pointed out, was just me saying that the conversation is mucking up the thread and that you guys need to take it to PMs if you can't debate in a civil manner that doesn't shit up the thread. As for his "Uncle Tom" comment, I had no idea what it meant nor did I know that it was an offensive remark. JimmiC later on edited out his post so it looks like he came to his own realization that he went too far. And since he edited out, there is no need to carry out a mod action against him since he admitted to his own mistake. However, with that being said, had JimmiC not edited out his comment, he most certainly would have received a mod action from me. Him using a racist remark to try to get his point across is insulting and offensive. I would not have just stood by and let him go unpunished. I've expressed my thoughts on the "both sides" type comments enough to let that lay and I accept the explanation of not understanding how that had to look to me at the time and while it's hard for me to understand how you could not know that, I have no idea what's going on in plenty of countries, let alone more nuanced stuff like slurs (don't ask me how I found out several gaming things are also slurs for Finnish people), so it's only fair I accept it. I disagree about the editing it out making it not worthy of action, because it got said regardless and it's pretty heinous, along with the accompanying arguments and continued (after that post) calling me racist, and the PM's that came as a result of him being encouraged to take what was "shit" in the thread into my PM's regardless of whether it was specifically encouraging him to freely toss specific racial slurs at me in PM. If you want to say I brought it on myself I'll accept it (not like I have a choice right lol) but I would at least hope if the tables are turned and Jimmi comes pleading for action for something that offended him, I'm afforded a comparable leeway, ideally proportional to our contributions to the thread, but I suppose that also depends on who is assessing the values haha.
Report JimmiC's PMs so I can take a look at them. If I read the contents of those PMs then it'll be much easier for me to make a decision on what do do. If he's posting in an abrasive manner and calling you a racist, then I'm going to shut him down hard.
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Well that ended exactly how I expected it to.
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how! that is some m night shyamalan level twist. teach me your ways.
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Ireceived more than a few PMs from GH before I told him to stop sending them. “Condescending” is an accurate discriptor.
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in response to the GH ban reason listed here (copied from the ban thread):
"Yes, JimmiC posted something stupid and insensitive. He went too far. But you also admitted that you weren't completely free of fault either. Looking back at your posts and the PM conversation that you had with JimmiC, it is clear that you were speaking in a very condescending manner and that you were belittling him. Therefore, you can't go punishment free either. My advice is that you two should just ignore each other before any of this gets even worse."
I wanted to note that it'd be a lot easier for them to ignore each other if the site had a built-in ignore feature.
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Mimicking zlefin’s PMing behavior is not a sound approach to participating in TL threads.
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EPT
