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Wow, I just posted and then started reading the replies...
WTH guys? you are bashing this build only because you are used to your build or you've tried mech and failed.... As far as I know, to carry out a successful build, you've gotta play at least 20 MU's to understand the strength and weakness of the strategy, where then you'll be able to tweak it to your likings/abilities.
For Ex. I like to harass, so I'm used to carrying out a hellion drop the by 8-9 min mark, and at the same time I'm making cloaked banshees to further harass.This harass when successful helps me put a stop to zerg macro and fogs my insufficiency to macro properly (due to spending alot of apm on micro). For others, such as those who can scout very skillfully can then use the Synyster build to the fullest by macro'ing up and come up with a unit composition that zergs cringe at.
A couple arguements:
Terrans who are afraid of mutas need to learn to build turrets correctly to protect the only unit that mutas can kill: SCVs. Try building 3+ turrets on your mineral line. Mutas do very little damage. They take forever to knock out buildings, which is why they only target add-ons and singled out turrets. In fact, whenever they attack my base, it's a perfect cue for me to push the zerg natural because I know they just spend 1000/1000 on 10 mutas. Now, if they actually fly a flock of 6 mutas above a thor, I've gotta ask you where's your 6 marines that can easily melt away these over-expensive units. 600/200 vs 600/600 trade. I'll take that trade any day of the week.
Banellings can roll into my forward-position thors all day long, and I wouldn't care. It takes >20 banelings to kill a thor. That is a whopping 1000/500 vs your 300/200 thor. Note: don't run your hellions first, they're fast but paper thin.
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Rank 1 diamond here. I use a version of this build. I don't double expand. I push out with blue/flame marauder to pressure his third. And then switch into thors immediately after to counter roach/muta counter. It's the same idea though. Solid build. Maybe marine/tank is better if you have insane micro. This build takes micro too of course, but it's much more "a-click."
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On June 11 2011 04:46 noobinator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:40 eu.exodus wrote:
no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience. Uhm, it's your fault if don't scout to see if your opponent is making ultras... in that situation you should focus on marauders and thors, no hellions.
hey noob
please read before you post sarcastic dumb shit like that. I said when he remaxes with ultras, meaning he lost his army to my shit then switched to ultras. How do you think i should magically get enough marauders off 2rax to even make a dent in a swarm of ultras that as i said before appear suddenly.
But maybe since you are such a pro and i requested replays you could provide me with some k thx bye
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Nice BO and great write up. Just a question here: i currently play the normal Tank Rine Medivac style (opening with 1 Rax into Quick Factory with Reactor (at Rax to swap) and building a CC while creating my first 2 Hellions - while moving out i yet again swap Rax and Factory (Tech-Lab) to get Tanks securing my Nat after my initial poke with tanks).
Problem with this build is that positioning is very very important and can be the downfall of it. So i must likely would try to use your build but i'm very afraid of Infestors. At MLG IdrA showed how to beat this with going your more Infestors than Select had Thors. How to counter this? ^^
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As a macro player, I tried many times going early double-expand and then turtling until 200/200, but I've found that the zerg can easily get 200/200 before you, take the whole map, and then trade armies with you (even cost-inefficiently) and still come out ahead because of his superior economy. It seems to me that the time between the early 2-rax aggression and the 200/200 is just too long. I would strongly recommend doing constant BFH harassment the whole game to keep up some semblance of map control, snipe drones, etc.
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On June 11 2011 18:04 Daniel C wrote:
As a macro player, I tried many times going early double-expand and then turtling until 0/200, but I've found that the zerg can easily get 200/200 after you, take the whole map, and then trade armies with you (even cost-inefficiently) and still come out ahead because of his superior economy. It seems to me that the time between the early 2-rax aggression and the 200/200 is just too long. I would strongly recommend doing constant BFH harassment the whole game to keep up some semblance of map control, snipe drones, etc.
sadly from trying the build, this is very true. Map control is very difficult to achieve. Zerg will have creep all over the place a hatch at every base for larvae and just waiting to transfer drones from mined out expos, and spot where you want to expand to next.
After using the build i lost to mass baneling infestor roach. Blings just raped the scvs, hellions and marines, roaches mopped up what the fungals didnt kill leaving me with only a few thors, then he just kept spamming roaches and lings till i was out of gas for thors ftw.
I havent given up though. Its a great build. Just needs more practice and tweaking.
Ps. Ultras still rape
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Is there any room for ghosts to deal with hive tech?
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Exodus, I had this same problem (Well it mass was ling bling) which wiped out all the light units between the thors. Try sending the thors in first to tank the bling damage then move your backup units into the thors position. Keeping the thors as spread as possible considering their size.
Also if you scout roach should really be using marauder instead of lots of hellions.
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On June 11 2011 21:41 rebotfc wrote:
Exodus, I had this same problem (Well it mass was ling bling) which wiped out all the light units between the thors. Try sending the thors in first to tank the bling damage then move your backup units into the thors position. Keeping the thors as spread as possible considering their size.
Also if you scout roach should really be using marauder instead of lots of hellions.
will give it a shot.
I also want to try maybe ghosts for nuking expos and emp, and maybe if they go for ground only swap 2 factories for ports and go for banshees or cruisers (lol) just to see what the economy will allow of 3 bases.
The thing i have the most trouble with is the fact that you cant really tech switch. If your first push doesnt do a shit ton of damage, dont waste your time, just gg.
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I'm yet to run into this on a map with an applicable double OC but I'll repeat my first impression. It fails miserably to roach infestor. I open pool, hatch, baneling nest and scout your build with a sac'd overlord/lings at the front door. I know you're either doing pure mech or this build. Pure mech I'd like to wait a little bit longer but you do what you can.
Hellions are only good for surprise and punishing bad zergs. Hellion drops would be nice to see more often but with this build I see mostly packs of hellions running about the map trying to act like they're controlling it. They're not. They're only occupying space my roaches are not.
I have 10 roaches at home, 4 queens and 2 spines at each base. Hellion harass is either ineffective or turns into a pincer death trap.
Meanwhile, I can show up before you have sufficient numbers of anything but hellions and screw up your natural with roaches.
You secure your nat and I subside. No mutas, no lings. I just spread my creep and wait. When you go to take your third I unburrow underneath your tanks, neural your thors to keep them off me while I destroy everything and remake my army for less and faster. Then I walk into your natural while reinforcing roaches stream behind and thousands and thousands and thousands of speedlings are produced to take advantage of the fact that your mass hellions are gone.
This has been my experience at least. Mech used to give me a lot of success as a gold Terran but as a Zerg I now laugh at the sheer amount of turtling required. You can stay on two bases forever but you'll never get a third without being too weak to protect everywhere.
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Ok I have tried this strat some more and I must say it is not viable. It looks good on paper but in practice it does not work. I think the biggest flaw is aiming for late game and trying to play a macro game vs Zerg.
Terran is crap late game, Zerg becomes incredible strong as soon as they are left alone, you most kill them before broodlord/ultra or it is GG.
Drops, cheese and tank push are viable against Zerg. Trying to play macro and aiming for late game is not the way to go since those are the biggest strengths of Zerg.
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MockHammill I appreciate that you've tried it out, it would be useful to have a replay showing how it doesn't work so it can be compared to the replays (which on the face of it work) posted by the OP. If anything it will show zergs the best way to defend it.
I would post some of mine but i'm only Gold so must of my problems are from macro multitasking so probably wouldn't help much.
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Hey guys! I've been reading and absorbing all the feedback in this thread and want to address a few of the main points. I will try my best to go back and answer all of your individual questions that haven't been answered yet.
The points people make for this build being unviable are:
Zero map control/no harass
Roach Infestor -> Ultra/BL demolishes this
Getting outmacroed to the 200/200 race.
I sacrifice map control for a super high economy. If you can't outmacro a Zerg with 3 OCs at that time, I really don't know what to tell you. It's really surprising how fast you can remax an army off of 5 factories. That's 30 supply a Thor pump. which is very affordable off of 3 bases. I really don't consider these an issue at all in my spot in Masters.
In regards to Roach/Infestor, I played a game with Ghosts. I added a facility after my 5th and 6th gasses were taken and cut out the 5th factory. The results were outrageous. My 1200 Masters Zerg opponent went MASS infestors. Ghosts absolutely demolished it, it wasn't even CLOSE. I had just played a random custom game and I literally thought my opponent was Plat or lower because of how easy it was. Here's the replay!
http://www.mediafire.com/?cjb4498x4g9mz47
As you can see, Snipe is outstandingly good, and I didn't even micro this properly at all. You only need to use 1-2 EMPs if you catch the infestors balled up, but snipe should be prioritized otherwise. Oh yeah, I played this game high >_>
So I will be experimenting more with Ghosts and adding onto the guide with the inclusion of them. I urge you guys to do the same and come back with results. PLEASE post replays! Thanks!!
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Hi Synystyr 
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Korea (South)512 Posts
decent build for low level (bronze - plat) tvz gj
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Hey, your build sounds like a retarded all in which if is scouted you can't really put thoses bases. And you won thoses games on BIG RETARDED all in... sorry i need real strategy with skill require, turtle on 2 bases an pray for not loosing the others is not viable.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 12 2011 02:29 lGy wrote:
decent build for low level (bronze - plat) tvz gj
Low level that don't want to micro and want to A move, yes. I do not think it will be viable, at all, at a higher level. Especially on bigger maps. Shakuras/taldarim/ cross meta, you're just boned.
Not to mention, mass infestors certainly isn't the answer... Roach/infestor into infestor/sling/brood is the problem, I'd tell you. By you playing so passive, zergs can tier3 off 4 bases by easily 15-18 minutes, and have broods out..
Thors do NOT cut it vs broods, at all. Good luck getting enough ghosts out to deal with infestors AND snipe broodlords.
Again -- it's WAY too passive. Double early expo, you're asking to get assraped by a losria style 3 hatch tier1 roach sling all in. Hell, any kind of roach sling bling pressure off 2 base, and I don't see a way you can stop it.
All they have to do, is get you to put hellions by thors, then NP 1-2 thors, and you're absolutely fucked. Thor/hellion CANNOT deal with broodlords just by being near them. That's more of a I GOT SURPRISED GOTTA REACT QUICK reaction. It's not something I'd do all game, by any means. Just FG bait, personally.
Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
Aka... weren't...very....good I haven't played a zerg in AGES who didn't instantly know my third timing, and nat timing. Let alone let me double expo. Fuck expo once, and you're dead vs some of these zergs.
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I was skeptical at first but then I watched a few replays and it blew my mind that these zerg players could not crush a Thor/hellion maxed army considering you had been so passive.
Apart from being very passive and being very vulnerable to Losira style busts while you're getting your first thors out, as iAmJeffRey mentioned, it seems to me that the immobility of this army could be abused very easily through multi-pronged harass via drops and/or nyduses or simply by counterattacking any time you move out.
Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
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On June 11 2011 17:23 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:46 noobinator wrote:On June 11 2011 04:40 eu.exodus wrote:
no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience. Uhm, it's your fault if don't scout to see if your opponent is making ultras... in that situation you should focus on marauders and thors, no hellions. hey noob please read before you post sarcastic dumb shit like that. I said when he remaxes with ultras, meaning he lost his army to my shit then switched to ultras. How do you think i should magically get enough marauders off 2rax to even make a dent in a swarm of ultras that as i said before appear suddenly. But maybe since you are such a pro and i requested replays you could provide me with some k thx bye
In that case, I'm quoting the OP:
"Ultralisk vs Thor is a very close matchup where the Ultra wins by the smallest of margins. However, with auto repair and Marauder support, you shouldn't have to worry about them. Your Thor number will most likely be larger as well. Because of our unit composition, we will never have to worry about dealing with the BL/Ultra tech switch that punishes Viking production so hard."
I'm not exactly "such a pro", and I wasn't trying to make myself look like one. I'm just some guy who likes to help people out. If you think my advise is bs, then ignore it. No need to bash on me for misreading your post.
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thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
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EPT
